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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Detroit Journeys by Marygrove College
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Detroit Historical Society
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Detroit Historical Society
Language
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en-US
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Marygrove College
Oral History
An audio or video resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Narrator/Interviewee's Name
The current first and last name of the person speaking or being interviewed.
Sandra Foote
Brief Biography
A short biography of the Interviewee
Sandra Foote was born in 1941 and lived in New Orleans until the age of five. She recalls splitting her time between Detroit and New Orleans as she grew up.
Interviewer's Name
The first and last name of the interviewer.
Crystal Yvonne
Interview Place
The place where the interview was conducted.
Detroit, MI
Date
The date of the interview in MM/DD/YYYY format.
3/13/2006
Interview Length
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1:00:38
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
Crystal Yvonne: It is Monday, March 13th, 2006. And I Crystal Yvonne am interviewing my mother Sandra Foote for Psychology 436 at McGill College. I have an interview agreement here, but asked if both you and I accept the conditions of this interview, and we are both aware that this interview could be used by Manzo College. Do you accept the terms of the agreement?
Sandra Foote: Yes, I do. That's okay. That's okay.
Crystal Yvonne: Please sign.
Sandra Foote: Okay, I'll sign. Okay. All right. That's fine.
Unidentified Hmm. All right.
Crystal Yvonne: All right. First of all, I just wanted to know, says please tell me where and when you were born.
Sandra Foote: Well, I was born in 1941, January 2nd. Actually, it was about between 80 or 90 miles from New Orleans. It was out in the country, out in the middle of nowhere, you might say. But my home was actually New Orleans. I happened to been born at that time. Because my mother wanted to grow up in the country where she was more comfortable because she lived or she grew up up in the country, away from New Orleans. She chose to go up there where she felt comfortable to have her baby. So that happened to be why I was born there. At my grandparents home. My mother's parent's home. And. As I recall, my mom told me that I was born there and my grandparents home. I don't believe I was born in a hospital. I believe they must have had. A doctor? Yes, A doctor did come to the home. When she was going to deliver. I was born. At my grandparents home. My mom's parents home. And then after that, she went back to New Orleans, which was my mom and dad's home and my father. That was his home, as well as my grandparents on my dad's side and my great grandparents. They were all from in the New Orleans area or Jefferson Parish area. Baton Rouge. That was my beginning.
Crystal Yvonne: Why weren't you born in a hospital?
Sandra Foote: Well, that's a good question. I I'm not sure because certainly. Many of my relatives in that area where my mom took me up in the country were born in France. But for some reason, maybe she couldn't make it to the hospital. I'm really not sure. But she did tell me, as I recall that. She had her. Her choice was my grandparents. Maybe it also was because my grandmother, my mom's mom had often helped, as I guess you could sorta think of her as being helpful in the way of a midwife.
Crystal Yvonne: You said, Who was a midwife?
Sandra Foote: My. My grandmother. My mom's mom. And I don't think she was really a midwife. But she was. And. She was very helpful in that way. She was an old indigenous woman who had. Helped. And that was part of her experience and her past. I don't think so. I don't know really, except that my mother had great, great going to her mom.
Crystal Yvonne: So what What is indigestion? And this is mean.
Sandra Foote: Oh, well, that refers to the Native American side of my heritage, which my grandmother happens to be. You know Choctaw Excuse me. Which is one of the groups of people that are, you know, found in that area, the Choctaws and the Chickasaw.
Crystal Yvonne: Yes. Okay. Then she. Moved. She moved back down to New Orleans. So what would she do when she got back down in New Orleans? Okay. You were born. All right.
Sandra Foote: Well, as I recall, my mom and dad at that time lived. I forget what street they lived on, but the they they're a young married couple at that time. And they probably first lived with my uncle and aunt who were my godparents. They might have lived very close to them for a while. I don't know if they lived in their home, but I know they lived close by. And my dad at that time probably was working on around the French market. Uh, he worked on the docks. He was a stevedore at one time. Well, you work off the ships that New Orleans being a very busy port. We had the shrimp boats. We had we had a lot of all kinds of fruit and produce brought into the that particular port area. And it was brought into the French market, a lot of it. And the weekends, like on Saturdays were spent at the market. A great deal of time there. And there were a lot of men that I can remember as a young child, relatives were who worked on the docks at some time or other, or they drove trucks or they worked on the ships in some capacity. So that was that was something that is part of New Orleans, past the French markets and the time that, you know, I can remember spending there all day long on a Saturday was quite a lot of fun as a young child.
Crystal Yvonne: So I was. Some of your earliest memories.
Sandra Foote: Yes, that was that was a lot of fun on the weekends, being able to spend up and down, going up and down the area where the markets where people had their stalls and so forth. It was. It was a lot of fun because my folks spent a lot of time haggling over prices. I would go with my godfather, for example, and he might haggle for quite a few minutes over just the price of a little watermelon or shrimp or crawfish or anything. It was you just didn't accept the first price. He just stood there and sort of in a friendly sort of conversation, haggling back and forth.
Crystal Yvonne: That was Uncle Lewis. Lewis?
Sandra Foote: Yes. Oh, yeah. We had a lot of fun. And of course, then we would take the the crawfish or whatever he had. Of course, everything we got there was fresh and the crawfish was still alive. Or the crabs also for the gumbo was alive and we'd take it home with them. I can remember standing on a stool. Excuse me. That was my phone dropping. I can remember at the end of that day, you know, the haggling and everything. And then when they gather up what they purchased at the French market and we go home and they would have the the fresh crab still, you know, it's light and you'd have the boiling pot of water that my grandmother would have. And she would I would stand there watching her as she dumped the crab. Or crawfish or both ends of the pot. And oh, boy, I feel so sorry for those. Oh, really? But, you know, I got over that because I used to love to eat. You know, the food when I was prepared. It was a great time.
Crystal Yvonne: Mm hmm. So did you experience any prejudice while you were down there before you left?
Sandra Foote: Well, I didn't really know enough at that time. I was too young to really know because. But my parents wouldn't tell me a. Any kind of prejudice or. They didn't explain anything like that to me at that time because I was quite young. And then I. I think too, we lived in close knit, protective type of environment, if you will, or communities where. My folks as well as my other friends. And well, that I played with their parents probably did the same thing, protected them. Problem. Any kind of. Hurtful type of situations because. We we really kind of. Stay close together and communities.
Crystal Yvonne: And our community is that you will knit community, Community.
Sandra Foote: Well, we're speaking of the Afro-American communities, but they're broken up into little groups, if you will. Me, the older community that I'm familiar with is the Creole community. And we had rather isolated kind of views at that time. I suppose we sort of clung together. And groups and communities where you really didn't venture too far to really be exposed to any kind of. Discriminatory practices. You knew. To stay close together.
Crystal Yvonne: But you were too young.
Sandra Foote: But I was too young to really give you real. Objective time for.
Unidentified You of that. Okay.
Crystal Yvonne: Well, that's fine then. So what? What? How old were you when you moved to Detroit then?
Sandra Foote: Actually, I was five years old. Well. I was just about five years old. We came here to Detroit, actually after my parents were divorced in New Orleans. My mom. Was entering. I don't know if she just entered college, but I know that she was taking classes. At that time. When my parents were divorced and we didn't come immediately to Detroit. We first. Went. To her parents home again where I stayed. For just a short period of time. I imagine it was like over the summer. And she was in summer school classes there at Jackson State, I believe. Mm hmm. And then. She. Move to Detroit, actually with me. So that she could enter Wayne State University. Her goal was to better herself for better job opportunities, for herself, for a better job.
Crystal Yvonne: That's why she moved.
Sandra Foote: Yes, because around New Orleans, which was really our home, there weren't that many opportunities. Not much. For her to to really take advantage of at that time. And that was early to. You know, because that was around 19, I suppose, 1945, 46. So she. Decided to go where there were more opportunities. And she had an older brother. And sister who were here in Detroit. And I'm sure if she had heard that there were more opportunities here.
Crystal Yvonne: So for blacks.
Sandra Foote: Yes. So she decided to come this way and enter Wayne State. Which she later on did. She had to work when she came here. She worked in. Oh, gosh. I think she worked in a convalescent home. What they called was what they called at that time. I think that's what she called it. But it was a nursing home. That's what I think of. You know.
Crystal Yvonne: Did. Did she ever think about or hear you talking about? Not a lot of opportunities down there for blacks and it would be more opportunities up here. Did she ever think about or any of her brothers and sister sisters think about trying to pass?
Sandra Foote: Well, they some of them did, but they didn't intentionally, intentionally do that. But it happened, though.
Crystal Yvonne: For jobs.
Sandra Foote: I don't know. Did they ever at Wayne State, I noticed on her I.D. they were Caucasian and she didn't tell them that she didn't know. In the south, in the small community where we were. We all knew who we were. And it hadn't occurred to her, even for me as a small child, to really. To really speak up to that, to know to do that. To to to say, well. She she really didn't know. She thought everybody knew who she was.
Crystal Yvonne: Are you sure?
Sandra Foote: I don't know. Well, obviously, one, when we were here in Detroit, I found out early because I found out that that was not true. Mm hmm. And when I entered school, people didn't know. They thought I was Asian. They thought my mother. I don't know what they thought she was.
Crystal Yvonne: So why? Because of the war was going on at the time?
Sandra Foote: Yes. They thought I was a war baby. I when I entered school. So I you know, I knew nothing about the Second World War I. You know, that that was to be learned later in my education. But certainly when I entered kindergarten, I didn't know what was going on. I didn't know why.
Crystal Yvonne: So what did they think that grandma went over to?
Sandra Foote: I think.
Crystal Yvonne: Japan and.
Sandra Foote: I just don't know. I was totally confused because I didn't know. I didn't know what to do. In some cases.
Crystal Yvonne: that thought you the Rosie riveters.
Sandra Foote: I maybe so I was just I just didn't know. I didn't understand why sometimes. Children sometimes pointed at me or. Or whispered something. I didn't really know what was going on.
Crystal Yvonne: Hmm. How'd that make you feel when they would point at you?
Sandra Foote: I, I was confused because I was just used to. My family and the close knit little community of folks that I was used to who to me look like a little bit of everybody. But I was quite comfortable being Afro-American, but I didn't know what Afro-American or Asian are or. Caucasian. I really didn't know, by definition what those men. I just knew that. There were. I'm sorry about that.
Crystal Yvonne: So you just didn't use words and you're in a bubble? Yeah. Around most Creole people. So when you got here, you. You felt like a fish out of water or something?
Sandra Foote: Sort of. I really loved to. Being down there. And I didn't realize that we spoke and dialect songs and people didn't understand. Maybe when I was talking that much because we were kind of isolated, unfortunately, even though. New Orleans is definitely. Well known and what have you there. There are a, you know, groups of people who are used to their their. Traditions, you know. And we spoke a little dialect and I learned to be a little ashamed of it.
Crystal Yvonne: Now you are saying that being Creole with a dialect?
Sandra Foote: Yeah. Because I thought, well, this isn't proper. This. This is not getting me anywhere. So there happened to be. A lady in that store. Oh, I. Well, it was a family next door. That was very nice. They were from the northern part of Mississippi.
Crystal Yvonne: Is this here in Detroit or back down?
Sandra Foote: Oh, yes. This is in Detroit. I'm sorry. We had come, you know, to try. My mother was working part time, going to school and all of that. And she actually lived with her older sister, older sister. And she actually purchased a home together. And we lived next door to a family that was from northern Mississippi. And the elder on and that family. Was a tremendous help to me because she used to take me after school. And tutor me and help me with my language problem. And she would really. She she really did help me to speak like people here speak.
Crystal Yvonne: How did you speak before? What was the dialect?
Sandra Foote: Well, it was a Creole dialect. We spoke English and we spoke a little French. And. And some of us know very little Spanish.
Crystal Yvonne: So that was all jumbled together.
Sandra Foote: Yeah.
Crystal Yvonne: So how did that affect you? In school. How were you treated in school when you first got here?
Sandra Foote: Well, when I first got here, they just sort of the teachers were nice. I mean. They they didn't show any. Well, they didn't show any prejudice. Signs of prejudice. But the children, I could tell, were they often. On the playground, you know, they would make little gestures with their eyes, you know. Just so there. Their eyes would be squinting and they would look at me and sometimes laughingly, they'd say, Can you see? Me? And can you see out of your eyes or what have you? And I didn't know what to make of that. I don't know what's going on. So along with not speaking clearly, that didn't help.
Crystal Yvonne: So that's what I meant. Like, how did the teachers react to you? What did they do with you in school in terms of how you spoke?
Sandra Foote: Well, they they just made the corrections. They would correct me.
Crystal Yvonne: And you didn't have any troubles with the teachers. They were just you know.
Sandra Foote: I didn't. But I learned quickly that I. I wanted to fit in and I did not want to look differently. I didn't want to sound differently. So I guess I tried really hard then. And I think at that period of time, for many Afro-Americans, no matter what our varied backgrounds, bringing in to that situation. We were we were told that we needed to excel from our home. From our backgrounds, we would. We were determined that we had to be better. As I'm sure many people, minorities are told that in order to succeed here, you've got to be better than your peers. So I was no exception. I felt some of the same thing.
Crystal Yvonne: So being from a Creole background, can you just give a brief, you know, explain briefly what that means, the Creole culture. What what is that background? Just can you briefly just explain that?
Sandra Foote: Yes, that's. Well, I goes back to the the French and the African and the indigenous background. Those three things.
Crystal Yvonne: We have.
Sandra Foote: American, Native American.
Crystal Yvonne: We are I mean, when you say indigenous, you really mean.
Sandra Foote: When I say indigenous, I'm referring to Native American. And southern Louisiana. And southern Mississippi. The. We are thought to be African, French and Native American. And our culture. Let me see if I can explain that. And all of the better. Yes. And let's say we were thought to be African, French, Native American and Spanish. I'm sorry. I forgot what I said. Indeed. And we we brought those those groups in to the. To our background. My mother had and. As a matter of fact, some Spanish roots she has as well as the Choctaw. The African. The Irish. And. Let me see. I think that's I think of remember that might not have, but she has quite a a mixed background. My father is primarily the French, The Spanish. The African. The Native American. I think I covered when he was the Choctaw. The Spanish. The French.
Crystal Yvonne: Mm hmm. And so what does that mean to you? You know? Is that important to you? How did you express that?
Sandra Foote: Well, I just thought everybody was I mean, you know, from where I was, my little. Community down there, that's that's what what it was. And I just thought it had nothing to do, by the way, with the complexion. Mm hmm. And that meant nothing to me, because there could be dark, light medium. That didn't mean anything to me. Because those people. Culture. Yes. Mm hmm. So however my friends, my little friends, they spoke Creole. And I tend to as a matter of fact, once we got lost, my little friend, my best friend friends in New Orleans, because we went back, I should say, during we only spent the school year part of the year in Michigan, then we went back home. Well, and one of those occasions I was, I don't know, probably around seven years old, 6 or 7, I don't know. We got lost. My best friend and I and a policeman found us and asked us where we where we lived. And my friend was speaking and he couldn't understand her at all because he was not, you know, he was regular, he was Caucasian background. So he didn't know what in the world we were saying. So we led him back to our home. He just followed us. We kept walking till we got there. So. It's it's it's. To answer your question, what does that mean to me?
Crystal Yvonne: Was that important to you? You. You didn't know?
Sandra Foote: No, I didn't know. It was just a way of life.
Crystal Yvonne: And when you got up here to Detroit, why did it become important?
Sandra Foote: Well, it centered.
Crystal Yvonne: Or did you just want to?
Sandra Foote: When I got up here, we located and. I suppose you could say the first location we came to was where people were speaking Spanish. And. Um, I don't know what else, but it. It was close to southwest Detroit. Really? Oh, we were down there, uh, close to downtown. Oh, okay.
Crystal Yvonne: So you live. Whose name is Jerry?
Sandra Foote: Oh, gosh, I don't remember the name of the street, but. There were Native Americans. There were people of Mexican descent. And, um. Various. Backgrounds that were maybe similar and there afro . People that, you know, spoke some of the Spanish.
Crystal Yvonne: So you felt you, you you felt like you fit right on in where you where you were living.
Sandra Foote: Right. Because oh goodness, I can remember. Oh, we had. My good little buddies. And this is going back for me. Gosh, I'm trying to think. Have I? I'm trying to think of my best pals. The. There were the, um. Hmm. I wish I could think of their names right this minute, but Puerto Rican. Um, Mexican. Well, there were pockets of Puerto Ricans and. Native American. And there was a mixed bag in that community where we were. But many of them were speaking Spanish. And they just it just sort of seemed like we came from a group that was sort of that way up here to another group that was sort of that way, too, because Detroit was not really that open as a city at that time for minorities such as us. Oh, there were pockets of the city where I suppose we knew to gravitate toward. So that was the obvious place for us. Right. Rodriguez. Oh, gosh, I can't think of everybody, but. But they were, you know, part of what I was used to, I guess you could say, was part of what you were used to or. Right? Mm hmm. Right.
Crystal Yvonne: So you did feel at home.just as if you were in New Orleans.
Sandra Foote: Right? Because Detroit was just not really that open. The whole city was not open to us. We knew. I'm sure my folks knew when it came to certain areas of the city where they were more welcome.
Crystal Yvonne: But I didn't get this before. Who all moved when you moved to Detroit? It was just you and grandma. So it was.
Sandra Foote: At that.
Crystal Yvonne: Time? Yes.
Sandra Foote: My uncle Tommy, he was already here. I don't know if they knew where he was employed at first. What his background was because of the nature of his job, I'm really not sure. Oh.
Crystal Yvonne: Okay.
Sandra Foote: So my Uncle Tommy and I, Connie. They were here already.
Crystal Yvonne: What's your earliest memory of living here in Detroit?
Sandra Foote: Well, living down there where where I just mentioned with the people who, you know, were not speaking English all the time and and that that area close downtown. I don't know exactly. We weren't in one place. We weren't really settled in that. And. Where we lived. There was probably he was probably rooming. They used to have rooming houses, you know.
Crystal Yvonne: So.
Sandra Foote: Mm hmm. Now, what was that question? I'm sorry.
Crystal Yvonne: I guess the earliest memory, like, Oh, coming here, getting here. Oh, what do you what was the first thing you remember? Was anything that stuck out in your mind?
Sandra Foote: Yes. Yes. Um. Going downtown. I can remember there were street cars here. And. There were mounted police, policemen. You know, that was interesting. And I remember. Hudson's department store.
Crystal Yvonne: Mm hmm.
Sandra Foote: Going there when I was, you know, when we first arrived. And there was a doorman who stood at the door. As you entered the department store, Hudson's departments. And. I thought that was interesting. He was an interesting looking, dignified looking. I remember distinctly he was an interesting, dignified looking black man in some sort of uniform, looking rather stately, standing there at the door. Wow. He's. He was so tall and everything. Hoo hoo. And I just. I was just. I just thought, this is the big city. While New Orleans, to me, it was home and it was big city to me. But this was different. It was cold up here. I remember that.
Crystal Yvonne: And you didn't like the cold?
Sandra Foote: No, I couldn't stand that. But I just remembered seeing this man. He was dressed in this uniform, and he looked so dignified standing at the door. And so entered Hudson's department store. And it was. That to me, was a big deal.
Crystal Yvonne: How old were you? And about then?
Sandra Foote: Oh, that was my first trip here. That was when I must have been around five years old then.
Crystal Yvonne: Oh, well, then you. And what do you think about. Did you have any feelings about seeing the black man other than you thought he was dignified? Did you feel like that was different than how you saw blacks down in New Orleans?
Sandra Foote: Well. I didn't see any buddy standing. I don't recall seeing anybody standing. You know, as a doorman, although that might be just because I just didn't see that much. I was down there earlier because I was very young. Yeah. But it might not have been any different. I can't say that it was. But I was just impressed, I think, because I was in a different place. It was very cold and the people were not as friendly to I thought. But it was still interesting that I missed being at home because I never did like the cold kind of the cold weather and not as friendly kind of community.
Crystal Yvonne: Yeah.
Sandra Foote: That I was accustomed to in the South and around New Orleans and anywhere around the southern Deep South like that. Although they say this was integrated up here, I didn't really know what integration. All I know was that the people were not as warm. And up front as people are down there.
Crystal Yvonne: So you were so and is being integrated you that means you were able to get on wherever you wanted to on the bus and this, that and other like that you weren't able to do in the South.
Sandra Foote: Well, you know, I'm sure that's true. But when I was so young in the South. I didn't know anything about that, although that that was going on. But when I went back on subsequent visits, I did indeed encounter that, to know the difference. As we got on a bus in New Orleans on one occasion when I was a child, my mom looked at me and I sat down where I wanted to sit down. When you were.
Crystal Yvonne: There, When you were here.
Sandra Foote: That was in New Orleans nobody said anything.
Crystal Yvonne: Now, why do you think that was? Do you think that was because she looked white or do you think.
Sandra Foote: Well, they probably thought I just didn't know any better. And they they probably just passed. Just passed it. Just let it go. Because I can remember going to a waterfall and she said, oh, no, that's one because I didn't know I was back and forth between here and Michigan to know New Orleans and thereabouts. So that was kind of confusing going back and forth. I thought I could just go and drink water down there in a fountain. And she said, Wait a minute. And on one occasion and I thought, Well, what's wrong? But then my mother, she didn't tell me not to drink water. She just let me do it. She hesitated at first, but then she didn't say, Don't do it. She just said she just said nothing after that. And she just let me go ahead and do it. And nobody reprimanded me. And that was a thought the way she operated. She didn't really want to enforce whatever the the law was. She didn't help it. In other words, she didn't help to promote it at all. And when we come back here, on the other hand, she had people to babysit me while she was working, going to school. Sometimes it was a black person. Sometime it was a white person who she who she was friends with because she had both white and black. Friends, I guess you would say, at that time. And there was a white lady who did babysit me at one time. And another time there was a black lady babysat. So that you. Yeah. That was going on up here.
Crystal Yvonne: So when you were drinking that water and she let you drink the water, you didn't understand why. You never understood why you couldn't at that time.
Sandra Foote: Now she does.
Crystal Yvonne: So she lets you play. So she so she had pride. She. And she wanted she didn't want you to feel any negative feelings or.
Sandra Foote: I'm sure that's what it was. She didn't want to instill that kind of. Feeling a need to hesitate or to feel less than someone else. She always wanted to. Instill. A different type of value system, not based on anybody's. Well, not based on that practice of the day of segregation. She she didn't try to enforce that. And that was a little bit scary sometimes, I'm sure you know, in that regard.
Crystal Yvonne: So is that part of the reason why she moved? That was part of the reason why she moved up here also.
Sandra Foote: That's possible because she wasn't the type that. Would accept it. She definitely didn't. And she had an uncle who who had probably encouraged her to to to leave and go elsewhere, go to school. He wanted to help her with her education because he was a physician and he wasn't in the South at that time. So he he didn't want, you know, to encourage that. So he probably that type of, you know, feeling of having to stay in the south. So we we didn't mind moving about.
Crystal Yvonne: Mm hmm.
Sandra Foote: Moving away from there. And what? She didn't mind? I had no choice.
Crystal Yvonne: Did you like living here, or would you rather stay in New Orleans?
Sandra Foote: Well, as a little child, I loved being in New Orleans, so I always wanted to go back home. Oh, well. But she didn't because she understood. I didn't understand the at that time what segregation was and what have you. So I didn't really get it. But I'm sure she had the reasons that that was part of her reasoning. She had more opportunities, and when people went see us all together, they'd see a group of people who look who looked all kind of different ways. And even when we were traveling at a car, going, trying to take a motor trip back down there, we were sometimes stopped by. Policemen going over different going through different southern states. They would say they might be standing directing traffic. I don't know what they were doing. But anyway, they would sometimes stop us and and look to see who's in the car. And they would sometimes hesitate to say something. They didn't always know what to say because they thought that we were a group of people of different races and they just didn't know what to say sometimes.
Crystal Yvonne: And that would scare you?
Sandra Foote: Well, it didn't make me feel comfortable because I was getting a little bit bigger, older at that time.
Crystal Yvonne: Who I would be in the car.
Sandra Foote: Well, remember, uncle, we we shortened his name and call it Wentworth. He would be there. And Tommy. Either one of them and their wives and my mother and myself. And we're all different looking folks to them. I suppose the people who or the policemen, they just didn't know.
Crystal Yvonne: So did you feel like you stuck out with even with with them, maybe not in your community, but did you feel like at some point growing up, did you. Stick out knowing your family.
Sandra Foote: Sometimes, unfortunately, when I was young and elementary level. Mm hmm. Sometimes I didn't want them to come to school because I didn't want. People to ask me a lot of questions about my background. Or to treat me maybe differently. I just wanted to be part of the group and that they saw my film. They might not treat me as a part of the group.
Crystal Yvonne: So.
Sandra Foote: A lot of times I thought that. My afro-American. As you will. Friends, brothers, sisters. I thought they were so nice looking, and I just wanted to look more like them.
Crystal Yvonne: Why?
Sandra Foote: Because I thought maybe I wouldn't stand out. I didn't want to stand out looking different. If, you know, in school, if there was a group of friends. And I was playing with them. Then here comes. Maybe it might have been some kind of parent teacher thing, you know, meetings or something if my uncle or my mom showed up. And then my friends look at them and stare. I thought they were. They wouldn't treat me maybe the same.
Crystal Yvonne: Because they were they the way they look now, how do they look now? What's so different.
Sandra Foote: They might make fun of of our group. In other words, they make fun of our family group or something. And that kind of hurts, you know.
Crystal Yvonne: So, you know Rainbow Coalition.
Sandra Foote: Yes. I just sometimes didn't want them.
Crystal Yvonne: So you were ashamed. You didn't like the fact that she looked white. She had blue eyes.
Sandra Foote: And they all had blue eyes. And there's. Well, just all looked different. And that's just something that's part of the math. I think that's part of the Afro American. Part of the fabric of being Afro-American too. That should be accepted in the US that we don't all look alike and we don't all have the same culture culture. Just every little part of that puzzle doesn't just always have to fit with the same cultural background. No.
Crystal Yvonne: So do you think that moving here bettered you? You're in in Grandma?
Sandra Foote: Well, I think it exposed me. Moving here. Exposed me to. Different types of people. And I believe that it is a good thing to be exposed to different types of people, whether the Caucasian, Afro, Asian. Native American. Whatever. You know, whether it's, you know, community or whatever you should. I think we should be exposed to different types of people so that we can have a better understanding.
Crystal Yvonne: So that so moving here helped you to you think it helped because it expose you to different cultures? That's right. And you think that that's important?
Sandra Foote: Yes, I definitely think that's.
Crystal Yvonne: So it's staying. Looking back now, do you think staying in New Orleans, okay, pre Hurricane Katrina, but do you think staying in New Orleans or living here or moving here was a better bet for you, for the family.
Sandra Foote: At that time? I think it probably was wise to move. Mm hmm. Because the opportunities in New Orleans. Are or were at that time even less than they are now. And there needs to be more opportunities now for. The. Afro-Americans, Americans and any part of the population there. There needs to be more industry, more. More job opportunities available. But then definitely it was probably wise for us to move so that my mom could. Can that affect? Going to the university here, getting the job that she eventually ended up with.
Crystal Yvonne: In that job was.
Sandra Foote: She was a supervisor and. Harper Hospital. And she was also a supervisor at other hospitals and. As well.
Crystal Yvonne: So overall, this has been a positive experience for you overall?
Sandra Foote: Yes, it has. And, you know, you take the good and the bad. I mean, I miss home. Although I went back there every summer, we went home. It was like going to school here. Just. Just waiting to get over with the school year and running back home. That was our routine. But it benefited us in the long run. Coming here.
Crystal Yvonne: Too, how did it benefit you? It benefits you with school and work differently.
Sandra Foote: Yes, I was able to. Do things that maybe I would not have done in New Orleans. I don't know. But I was able to go to the university of my choice. I would prefer that able to participate more and see viable programs.
Crystal Yvonne: And I was that.
Sandra Foote: Oh Catholic youth organization you know who we coming out of New Orleans you know, we're a large Catholic community down there and we just moved right along here. And that was the best part of my coming here. I love to see my old programs. When I was little, I swam all the time and participated in a lot of activities. The CIO head all. And that part was great. And part of the spiritual part of that and just just having a great time as a little child in that program for.
Crystal Yvonne: So it's good that you were able to.
Sandra Foote: Go to school or other things like the art programs, you know, taking art classes at the museum and said, Oh, taking music lessons. I had the oh, my goodness, she would if she had me with the music lessons on Saturday. And then I had the art lessons and then I had swimming all during the week. So we were we were really going for what was offered here. We we went gung ho.
Crystal Yvonne: So you took on a lot, right? And that was for your betterment?
Sandra Foote: Yes. Yes. We took advantage of everything for it.
Crystal Yvonne: That's okay. So I said overall, this had been has been a good experience for your take.
Sandra Foote: And yes, it was.
Crystal Yvonne: Thank you for your time. Thank you for letting me interview you, mommy and daddy. And I guess that concludes this interview. Thank you.
Sandra Foote: You're welcome.
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Title
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Sandra Foot, March 16th, 2006
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview, Sandra Foote talks about moving to Detroit at the age of five. While adjusting to the cultural differences, Foote also reflects on her memories of previously living in New Orleans.
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
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Detroit Historical Society
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en-US
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Title
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Detroit Journeys by Marygrove College
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
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Detroit Historical Society
Language
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en-US
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Marygrove College
Oral History
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Narrator/Interviewee's Name
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Patricia Flemings
Brief Biography
A short biography of the Interviewee
Patricia Flemings was born and raised in Detroit, and had spent most of life living in and around the city. While she would occasionally go out to see other cities, Flemings felt none of them ever felt like home the way Detroit did.
Interviewer's Name
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Amber Flemings
Interview Place
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Detroit, MI
Date
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3/8/2014
Interview Length
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01:19:59
Transcription
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Amber Flemings: Okay. The name of the interviewer is Amber Fleming. The name of the interviewee is Patricia Fleming's. The date is March 8th, 2014. The place is 4053 Sturtevant, Detroit, Michigan. The purpose of this interview is to learn more about my mother and her experiences in Detroit. Do I have your permission to audio record this interview?
Patricia Flemings: Yes, you do.
Amber Flemings: Okay. And can I have confirmation that you've signed the consent form?
Patricia Flemings: I signed.
Amber Flemings: Okay. I would like to thank you for doing this interview with me. Can we start with where your parents grew up?
Patricia Flemings: My mother grew up in Arkansas and Benton, Arkansas, and my father was raised born and raised in Georgia. And that's where they were. That's where they're from.
Amber Flemings: How long have you lived in Detroit?
Patricia Flemings: All of my life, off and on.
Amber Flemings: You said that you've lived in Detroit all of your life. Where?
Patricia Flemings: I was born in Detroit.
Amber Flemings: Oh, you were born in Detroit. Where are some other places that you've been?
Patricia Flemings: I was in Toronto for a while. I stayed in Philadelphia for a minute. And it's in different places. It depended. I went to New York and stayed there for a few months. It was a bit fast. Philadelphia was not the kind of city that I want to live in. Toronto was wonderful, but I couldn't stay there very long because it was costly. And basically that's just about it. Other than that.
Amber Flemings: So between the places that you've lived, what brought you back to Detroit?
Patricia Flemings: It was always home. And no matter what, I always ended up back home. And because of my mother and my family and I just it was home.
Amber Flemings: Well, you say that your parents came from different places like Arkansas and such. What brought them to Detroit?
Patricia Flemings: Well, my grandmother, both grandmothers, my mother's grandmother and paternal and immature maternity paternity and maternal maternal side. Their families came here, their husbands, they were married and their kids came here because there were jobs available. This is like back during before the Depression. Okay. There were jobs available. There was a better chance for them to do things that they love, to do, things that they wanted to do. My grandfather was a lawyer. He was going to school for law and he knew that if he was to go to school and if he was to get employed in the south, it wouldn't be as an attorney. He wouldn't have anything to do with that because there was still a lot of prejudice going on down south. So that's what brought my dad's family, you know? Yeah, that's what brought my dad's family up here and my mother's family basically the same thing. They were college educated black people, and they did not want to be in the South. They wanted to work and they wanted jobs. They were hiring in the factories. They were hiring different people for different kind of jobs. And that's why they came for employment.
Amber Flemings: Your family traveled here to gain better employment opportunities because they were all college educated.
Patricia Flemings: My dad's father was college educated. My my both grandfathers were educated. College educated. Not the wives.
Amber Flemings: Not the wives.
Patricia Flemings: Not the wives. They were high school grads, which was a big deal then.
Amber Flemings: Okay. So. When they came to Detroit being college educated black men, what were the opportunities then?
Patricia Flemings: Limited. They thought that it would be a little more than what it was. But when they came. These are my grandparents we're talking about. Mm hmm. Okay. So things were. It was not like it is now. It was they were shut out of a lot of things. And so they worked for the railroad. They were Pullman. You know, they got jobs on the railroad. I don't know. One of them was a Pullman. The other one was he worked inside where one of them put the stool down on the ground so that the white people could walk, you know, step on the steps and such. He did that. And the other one, he was he worked inside of the of the trains and stuff that was like considered a good job. He was like a bartender, took tickets or whatever.
Amber Flemings: How do you feel about the fact that they were college educated men who moved to Detroit for better opportunities and then they ended up working in the railroad?
Patricia Flemings: How do you feel they ended up working in the railroad I feel like that's what they had to do. They did what they had to do to provide for their families. Okay. Mm hmm. And so I think that they did what's best for the families. I mean, I feel great about it. It was an honest living. They you know, I think it was a good thing.
Amber Flemings: To home during this time when your grandparents were working in the real world, whether it was on outside or an inside. What were their wives doing, your grandmothers?
Patricia Flemings: They were at home. They were taking care of the children. They had children. They had some. I think my dad's mom. Did day work she did domestic She was the domestic.
Amber Flemings: Could you clarify that for me? What exactly is a domestic?
Patricia Flemings: A domestic is a person who comes to your house and do housework. And so she would do that. And my mother's mother, she was her life was a little more leisurely. She belonged to a. She joined in NAACP. She was a member of NAACP So she was around a different class of people. So she was also in a writing club where they would go up north and ride horses. And so one of them, had they lived to, you know, one family had a little more than the other.
Amber Flemings: Okay. Okay. So with that said, how do you think that shaped your parents, the fact that one came from a from what I hear, a well-to-do family and one came from more more of a working class family.
Patricia Flemings: What do I what, what?
Amber Flemings: I'm sorry. I'm saying, how do you think that they're your grandparents and what they went through as far as jobs and working and and how you say one of your parents, your grandmother's had a more leisurely life because they're a little more well-off. How do you think that affected your parents growing up in Detroit?
Patricia Flemings: I think that my mother always felt left alone and neglected, although she lived in a big, pretty house and she had a lot of things. She was an only child. And if it wasn't, if it weren't for her grandmother. Okay. Because my mother stay in the south with her grandmother. Mm hmm. And so she stayed there for years. Like she didn't come up to Detroit until she was like 12, 11 or 12. Okay. Okay. And my dad. His mother would not. She. They were together. It was it was a different kind of closeness. They you know, they she wouldn't leave her son for anybody and she wouldn't leave her husband. And so. It made one of them really family orientated and it made one of them. She was family orientated, too, but she didn't know how to be family orientated.
Amber Flemings: Okay. And when both your parents came to Detroit, how did your parents come to be in Detroit? You said one grew up here because he stayed with his family. But you said your mother grew up in the South. Right. She eventually did come to Detroit. What was it like for her?
Patricia Flemings: She liked it. She liked it. She she was pleased to be here. And she she liked Detroit. You know, she just wanted to be with her mother and father.
Amber Flemings: Hmm. Do you know what it was like for her or when she first came to Detroit?
Patricia Flemings: Well, she was kind of, um. I can't. I can tell you some of the things that she told me. You know, she was kind of introverted because she was a southern girl from the South, and the girls were not too receptive, you know, to her because she talked different. She looked different. She was very fair with gray eyes. And the kids treated her a little bit different. And the same thing goes for my dad, you know? Mm hmm. They look different from the other children, so, you know, they both had the same. My father, they would beat him a lot because he was really fair and call him names. So I think that that's something that they had in common. And I think that's really interesting. My dad used to watch my mother going to school. Trowbridge I think it was. And he loved her red hair. She was a natural redhead and he wasn't going to public school at this time. And my grandmother, my my mother's mother eventually put my mother in Catholic school and they began. That's how they became close friends. But prior to that, my dad would watch her through his window because he thought that she was gorgeous. Mm hmm. And he talked about it all the time. Oh, okay. And he called her red.
Amber Flemings: He called her red.
Patricia Flemings: He called a red and she called him Moses.
Amber Flemings: Why did she call him Moses?
Patricia Flemings: Because, you know, he was. He was you know, he was. I don't know. It was just something in between them.
Amber Flemings: Yeah. Oh, it sounds interesting. What do you think is like the social dynamics of the fact that you had parents that went to a private Catholic school during. Is this also during the Depression?
Patricia Flemings: Well, we were born in 48, and so that was after World War Two. I do believe the war was over. Everything was plentiful. Things were different, you know, So it was it was a different society at this point. My parents are grown and married and I because I've got a sister and she was born during the war in and I've got a sister that was born. Right. When they were trying to decide if they, you know, what was going to go on because I was born in 48, so Kathy was born like in 46 to 45 in in Sandra as she was born. And I think like 42, 41, 42, something like that. So.
Amber Flemings: So just to clarify, you have 2 or 3 siblings.
Patricia Flemings: I have three siblings. Three sisters.
Amber Flemings: Okay. And their names are Kathleen, Kathy and.
Patricia Flemings: Sandra.
Amber Flemings: Okay. And everyone calls are A.S. that correct?
Patricia Flemings: Yes.
Amber Flemings: Okay. What was it like growing up in Detroit with two siblings?
Patricia Flemings: It was wonderful. Detroit was a wonderful place. We lived on the phone. You know, we lived oh, my mother's parents live. They had a house on the film. Okay. Which is now the new center. And my dad's mother lived on John R. Between Bobby in between she lived on Palmer, between John R and Woodward. Okay. Okay. And it was. It was wonderful because in what I had more fun with my dad's mom.
Amber Flemings: Really wasn't.
Patricia Flemings: Because of where she lived at on Palmer, the street over which I think is the street over from where she lived. They had a store and you had you had to go down under the ground. There was some steps to take you in the basement. And they that was our ice cream shop. And it was just more fun over there. And it was an apartment building. So it was a lot of people, you know, it was a lot of people there. And we set out on the porch and, you know, it was just it was friendlier and everybody was nice and it was just a different kind of environment. It was everybody took pride in where they lived. The apartment buildings were gorgeous. You know, they had flowers on the porch. I mean, it was just beautiful. And everybody knew everybody, you know, And your mother could take you outside. And if she had to running it, you didnt't have to worry about rapists and killers and kids getting snatched. And, you know, it just didn't happen. You know, And when I was at my grandmother's, my other grandmother, which is my mother's mother, and loved it over there because everybody over there was homeowners. And back when I was on the corner, they you know, we went it was a Chinese store that sold produce on another corner. You know, you could the region of the region, the name of the theater, which was on Woodward and West Grand Boulevard, was the Regent Theater. And we went there every Saturday. And I think it was a dime. You know, we went there and then there was another show, the Fisher Theater. The Fisher wasn't it wasn't a theater then. It was actually a show. And then we'd run up under the tunnels in the in the, you know, like when we get out the show because there's a tunnel leaving from the general, from the Fisher Building to the General Motors building. And every Sunday when we would go to the theater, we run through the theater, run through the tunnels. And oh, it was just in. Plus they had cars in there. We get in the cars. It was it was just fun. Detroit was safe. It was beautiful. People enjoyed their homes and their families. There was not any violence in the streets. You know, people dressed up to go out. You know, I remember my mother and father going out a lot, you know, And they were always so gorgeous. You know, people wore gloves in beautiful clothing. Women were very feminine. And I remember smelling my aunt, just like when she passed, I kept a sweater because I could every now me and even now I could still smell a Cologne, you know, because that's that her Cologne reminds me of her mom, you know. And so it was just it was just a different era. Just a different a different, as my dad was saying, different flavor.
Amber Flemings: Diffrent Flavor
Patricia Flemings: It was. But it was a good flavor.
Amber Flemings: Oh, wow. Oh, you paint the picture you paint of all Detroit. Growing up in Detroit is beautiful. It sounds like. It sounds like I'm going to enjoy. It was a beautiful place to grow up because it was a lot of fun. It was a lot of places to go and it was safe.
Patricia Flemings: We all everybody walked to school together. There wasn't anything where as like, now you have cold days. We didn't have that. We put on rubber boots. Mm hmm. Okay. We put our rubber boots. We put on scarves. You know, we had masks. We had coats, which were called boycotts. They were people call them pickles now, but they were boycotts back then. Mm hmm. And we put our clothes and we, the girl, all the kids would walk to school together. The elementary school kids would walk together. The you know, it wasn't it wasn't middle school, per se. It was a junior high school. And the kids, like 13 and up, they'd go together. And, you know, it was a high school. Those children were all everybody walk to school, you know, And that's how we got to know people in other areas, other blocks. Everybody knew everybody because everybody went to the same schools, which is so different than it is now. You know, we didn't have to catch the bus. You know, we went to school with with Bonnie that did live next door. You know what I'm saying? We walked. Our parents didn't have to drive us to school. They weren't afraid. They didn't think that people would jump out of the bushes and rape us. It was no such animal. Mm hmm. You know, and if anything like that ever happened. Mm hmm. The men in the neighborhood would handle it. Mm hmm. So, I mean, certain things just didn't happen. And it was. It was a real treat to live in the city. Mm hmm. It was an awesome treat to live in the city.
Amber Flemings: So over time, you say that the safety in Detroit has dramatically declined.
Patricia Flemings: Oh, yeah. I think I think that after the riots, I think that before the riots, it was still pleasant. People still own their homes. People still were working and things were pretty prosperous and pretty good money was flowing. But I think after the riots, I think that things changed, especially after they burned down Wall Street. I think that so many things happened. Mm hmm. You know, it was like it was. I'm trying to think of a name of the different clubs that were on the. Oh, it was a restaurant. I can't think of the name of that place. But it was a really nice restaurant. You know, it was all kind of clubs. And, I mean, everybody would come because it was like bars on Wall Street entertainment. Deloris Serve people like that would come, you know, and me and my dad and my mother during the time that they were coming up. And they were young adults, Donna and Woodward and all those streets that was called back. It was called. Oh, I can't think of what it was called. It wasn't the bottom. Black bottom was further down. Mm hmm. But they had the nightclubs. Mm hmm. Where are the big names? Were come, you know, And that's what my dad and mom. They would go to the Gotham Hotel in the hotel. They would go to the Gotham. And I can't think of the name of the. The different clubs and stuff. I hear them talking about different things that they did. And it was just. It was just a different time.
Amber Flemings: Mm hmm. What about 12th Street during being destroyed during the race riots?
Patricia Flemings: Well, I was going to school there for nursing, and so that particular day that it happened, I was doing my internship over a Kirkwood hospital. Mm hmm. And we couldn't leave because they were burning Wall Street down. So we watched it on the televisions. Mm hmm. And the hospital people couldn't move around. They said it started on 12th and Claire. Mm hmm. But it was a Perry's picture studio. He was one of the biggest photographers as far as doing graduation pictures for the teenagers. For seniors. His shop was right there on Claremont and Woodward, and it was an after hours spot next door. Mm hmm. And they said that that's what we had started, but that's what they put in the media. The people in the hood said something else.
Amber Flemings: What did the people in the hood say about how the race was started?
Patricia Flemings: The I'm trying to think it was the big four. Mm hmm. Which was the police at. They call them the Big four. They would travel in cars with four big, burly white men. Uh huh. And they got some guys and they began to question him about something. And one thing led to another. And. It started. They went into the club, They raided the car. They went in there, and it just turned into something real ugly. They were tired of those police officers killing black men in our neighborhoods. And I guess all the frustrations and everything just it just boiled over. Mm hmm. And it lasted for a while. And then after it happened and the people in the neighborhoods which I never understood, they went into the stores on 12th Street, they looted, they took groceries, they took televisions because Wall Street had a lot of power shops as well. Mm hmm. And they stole televisions, jewelry. And they didn't do anything with they just took it. I mean, they were taking food. They were tearing up people's businesses. You know, like, what is it? It was a shrimp shack. I think it was Dayton Areas. Yeah, I think it was done at is they tore that place up. They tore up all those black businesses. They set the houses. I mean, it was it was it was it was horrendous. It was horrible. You know? And after that incident, it just seemed like things never could come back together. That's during the time that Coleman Young was running for mayor. Mm hmm. And his his ticket was to get rid of stress because they had created more problems than anything. And after that, drugs were rampant. Heroin. It was rampant in the neighborhoods, and everything went downhill from there. Mm hmm.
Amber Flemings: So between the race riots, destroying black businesses in the city and.
Patricia Flemings: The race riots every yeah, that did it.
Amber Flemings: That. And then the connection between the drugs that in Detroit? Yeah. That's what helped in decline in safety for Detroiters.
Patricia Flemings: It was not only in safety, it was just it was just a different feel. You know, it was a different it was a different field altogether. I mean, it was it was in the 60s. And it followed right on to the 70s. Mm hmm. You know.
Amber Flemings: Earlier you mentioned the big four and you said those were like the big police guys did that the big four, did they have any connection to do with the the Motor City, the Motor City like car industry?
Patricia Flemings: No, they were police officers. The big four. The big four of them were it was a white team of police officers. Big police officers. Mm hmm. And they would come into the city. They work for the Detroit Police Department. Mm hmm. And they would beat people. They would take money from prostitutes. They were crooked, a lot of them.
Amber Flemings: So as police officers, they weren't there to help. They were there to to harm and encourage.
Patricia Flemings: They were there under the under the assumption that they were there to protect and serve. But they did very little protecting. They allowed drugs to be sold in the city and they knew who was selling drugs and they were getting money. Mm hmm. It was a mess. It was a big mess.
Amber Flemings: So they were. They. They're very crooked. Yeah, they were crooked.
Patricia Flemings: They were, you know, some of them, not all, but a great majority of them were bad. Mm hmm. You know, and in in if you lived in the city, you could see what they were doing. Mm hmm. And they blamed it on the blacks. But it was not the blacks. It was the blacks did it because they were. Some of them did it because there were drugs and they were on drugs. Mm hmm. And they did what they had to do to survive, I guess. Mm hmm. But it progressively. It didn't. It got worse. You know, the people that had jobs. Like where my grandmother lived. A lot of those people began to move out. Mm hmm. You know, because the city wasn't safe anymore. Um, the apartment dwellers. They tried to save up their money, you know, because they worked in factories as well. Hmm. And the factories were still, you know, booming. And so instead of investing into a practice, they wanted to get out of the city. Mm hmm. So they bought houses like in Palmdale and different places. You know, they came West Side. They came from the east side to the west side. People began migrating in different areas that were better than, you know, better than the area that they were living in.
Amber Flemings: Speaking of moving out of bad areas into better areas than when you were living there early, you you mentioned black bottom. What exactly is black bottom?
Patricia Flemings: Black bottom is a place that was originally it was for it was for it was 90, 99% of the people lived. There were black. Mm hmm. You know, Coleman Young was raised there. Mm hmm. Del Reys was raised there. A lot of successful black people came out of black bottom. But that was our area. You know, my dad's family lived in black bottom. Mm hmm. And that's a certain part. It's, like Far East. Mm hmm. You know, and it was. It was a nice area. They took care of their homes there, too, although they were less expensive. And 90% of them had those potbelly stoves in them. Mm hmm. And so it was. But they kept their property up. It was a different it was an all black area, you know, over by the cemetery where, like, monolith over in that vicinity. And right off. Jefferson. Mm hmm. You know, it was it was they called it Black Bottom.
Amber Flemings: They called it Black bottom. How do you think Detroit growing up in Detroit and seeing how it's changed over time, how do you think that shaped you?
Patricia Flemings: I think that's why I'm there so many times, because I was trying to find. I was trying to find a place better. Mm hmm. And I just love Detroit. I mean, I think it made me into a stronger woman. Mm hmm. Because if you can make it in Detroit, you can make it anywhere. But, I mean, I think it made me pretty well rounded. Mm hmm.
Amber Flemings: What? What exactly about Detroit made you real well-rounded?
Patricia Flemings: My experiences, the people that I met, the older people that I know. Mm hmm. The guy standing on the corner, they were the drunks. You know? I mean, honestly, they were drunk, but they didn't bother you. They tell you, Girl, you better get in the house. Mm hmm. I'm gonna tell your momma on you. Mm hmm. You know, you better not be talking to that boy. You know, I was. It was. It was still a community. Mm hmm. You know, It hadn't lost that community feel, and I think that's what made me want to reach out and help people. That's why I became a counselor. Mm hmm. You know, because I understood. Mm hmm. Those people.
Amber Flemings: When you say those people, you mean you understood?
Patricia Flemings: I understood our people. You know, I understood how people could go from working a eight hour job in a factory and end up being homeless. Mm hmm. You know, or end up being a crackhead or something. You know what I'm saying? They didn't have crafting, and they had heroin and weed and stuff. It just deteriorated. The family structure.
Amber Flemings: The. The drugs and the door to the family structure.
Patricia Flemings: Yeah. You know, because the women in the 70s, they began getting hired in the plants as well. Mm hmm. And the husbands, a lot of them were not working. Mm hmm. And so it made the women feel as though they were the head of the household. It took all that away from the man. And it was just a different environment.
Amber Flemings: A different environment. It was different because the women, they went from being housewives to being workers that made them. That they made them feel empowered. Mm hmm.
Patricia Flemings: Although they had a different pay rate than the husband. Than the men. Mm hmm. But the men had a different pay rate from the white men, so. Mm hmm.
Amber Flemings: When you say that, are you, like, hinting towards discrimination in the workplace.
Patricia Flemings: There was discrimination In the workplace, workers. They didn't hire a black woman. The only thing a black woman could do it had since when I was coming up is running an elevator. And they were few and far between. Mm hmm. You didn't think like sales girls. You didn't see black people working at Hudson's? Not unless they were janitors or janitorial or. As for stated elevator operators. Uh huh. You know, and Chris Keyes. It was. It was discrimination. Mm hmm.
Amber Flemings: That ties back to what you said earlier about how your your great or how your grandparents, they were college, your grandfathers were college educated. They moved here for better opportunities. And yet they ended up working in jobs that didn't necessarily benefit their degrees.
Patricia Flemings: Right.
Amber Flemings: So would you say the same thing happened when with with racism in Detroit? Like people would get their degrees or they get their diplomas and they still have a really hard time finding jobs. Right. If it was.
Patricia Flemings: Especially if you were black, if you were of a darker complexion. Mm hmm. You had a harder time than, say, you would.
Amber Flemings: Could you explain? What do you mean when you say, like how if you had.
Patricia Flemings: A hard time finding employment in an office.
Amber Flemings: So the darker your complexion, the harder you was to find job opportunities.
Patricia Flemings: It would be very hard because they didn't want that face to be the face of their company. And if you were like, in a receptionist. Mm hmm. You had to be light skinned, long hair. You had to have a certain look about you. And as much as not being, you couldn't look black. Like we. There were no dreads then. But I got dismissed from a job because I wore natural.
Amber Flemings: What do you mean when you say you were natural?
Patricia Flemings: I wore. I had my hair in a natural style. And then. Guy's words were. That's what I say about those people with that that have that kind of hair. That's my hair. Mm hmm. And if I chose to wear natural and been a problem.
Amber Flemings: In an afro.
Patricia Flemings: And.
Amber Flemings: You say natural, okay.
Patricia Flemings: It was. It was called a natural thing.
Amber Flemings: Oh, okay.
Patricia Flemings: You know, but.
Amber Flemings: So you said your grandmother, she had light eyes and red hair and then your father? No, my.
Patricia Flemings: Mother. She had light eyes, you know. You know, Mama, She had light eyes, red hair. You know, And she was cute. Tiny? Mm hmm. You know, so she had more opportunities than most.
Amber Flemings: Okay. And what about your father? You said he was light with green eyes. So did he. Do you think he fared better in the workforce?
Patricia Flemings: Yeah, but, yeah, he did. But. He was not a worker.
Amber Flemings: What do you mean when you say he wasn't a worker?
Patricia Flemings: He never wanted to work for anybody. He always did his own thing. He wanted to do something where he would be in control of what he did.
Amber Flemings: Okay. And what exactly did he do to work towards being in control of what?
Patricia Flemings: Well, he owned the party store at one point. Mm hmm. You know, he he did different things. He sold clothes. He was a tailor. Mm hmm. And so he would make coats and clothes and things like that. Um, he did stuff like that to make money. He did work at Fords. My grandfather, which was my grandfather. And. What is this guy, though? Walter Ruther. Oh, the one. They've got the highway named after the one that started the uprising at Ford Motor Company. Huh? Okay. My grandfather and that guy were very, very close. My grandfather on my mother's side. He became really big in the union. Mm hmm. Okay. And so I'm telling you that I lost my train of thought.
Amber Flemings: The. You're talking about the different jobs that your father had. Oh, yeah.
Patricia Flemings: My mother and my grandfather got my grandfather. My grandfather got my dad a job at Ford's. The Ford Foundry. Mm hmm. And my father hated it. He hated it. He hated it. He hated working in that place. And he made a vow that he would never work in that place ever again.
Amber Flemings: What about working in the. In the motor industry? Just what do you hate about working in the factories that was so bad?
Patricia Flemings: He said it was like a plantation.
Amber Flemings: Like a plantation.
Patricia Flemings: He said it was like working in the fields. Everything. People were mechanical, you know? And he just didn't like it. I mean, that's. He just didn't like that.
Amber Flemings: He seen it as like a new age form of slavery.
Patricia Flemings: Yes.
Amber Flemings: Speaking of slavery, is there any was there any slavery in your family prior to coming to the Detroit?
Patricia Flemings: Yes My great grandmother, my mother's mother would tell us about when she was a child. The people would come, the white people from other farms would come and her her. Her master would had the children. Mm hmm. You know, they would hide the child children. They would, you know, their two kids, they would hide them because the slave owner didn't want them to be sold to that particular farm owner because he made the slaves eat out of a horse trough.
Amber Flemings: Oh. Oh. And so he hid the children so that they wouldn't be sold to particular slave slave owners. That would show up.
Patricia Flemings: Right. And my great grandmother was fortunate enough to be one of those children. She ended up owning the farm.
Amber Flemings: That she was fortunate enough to not be sold to other slave.
Patricia Flemings: Owners. And she was fortunate enough to marry up. And she owned the farm. She rode a horse and she would you know, she would go through the fields. I can only remember, like, I wish my sister was here. She remembers a lot. Plus, she's older than me, so she knows more.
Amber Flemings: Well, you say she married. You mean she may not one of the slave owners?
Patricia Flemings: She. No, She married somebody. That was probably the father. The. The person. Mm hmm. Okay. Because just like, as you know, she her people were house people. They worked inside of the house.
Amber Flemings: They were house slaves.
Patricia Flemings: Yes. But they were still slaves and they still had to submit to the master so the master would get several women pregnant. Mm hmm. You know, and so as they got older, you know. Plus things changed in the 60s. The 50s in the 60s, in the 40s, it was. They were changing. My grandmother made a promise to God that she would never, ever go back to the south.
Amber Flemings: Uh, because it was so bad.
Patricia Flemings: It was horrible, she said it was horrible. She called them. She called them redneck. I can't think of what I can't think of it now. She said it often. She said it often? Yeah. I can't think of what it was, but it was horrible.
Amber Flemings: It was awful. Um, so going from how slaves in the South and then coming to Detroit and going into the auto industry and the railroad and stuff like that and seeing how Detroit has changed over time. What? How, would you say that Detroit is different compared? Compare it to the South in the past and and how it is now.
Patricia Flemings: I don't know how the South is. I'm not from the South. I'm not from the South. And when I did experience the South, it was horrible. And that was in the 70s, I believe. Now, I was in the 60s when I went to Texas. What's the name of that town in Texas? My sister's husband was. Ah, he was a soldier. Mm hmm. And he was transferred to someplace down in Texas. Uh huh. And when we went there, my brother, my grandmother drove my sister there because we were going to stop in Kentucky as well to see some family member. Clarksville, Tennessee.
Amber Flemings: Clyde's Tilden.
Patricia Flemings: That's where was Clarksville, Tennessee. And when we got to Tennessee, we didn't know which way this address was. So on one side of the street, it was a brick wall. Mm hmm. And on the other side of the street, it was this little quaint gas station. Mm hmm. And, of course, we were driving a 1955 Pontiac, which was uptown in town. It was not town car. And here we come with our black sails, and we pulled into this gas station. Mm hmm. And they told us that we had to go across the street. That they wouldn't serve us. Oh, okay. Mm hmm. And when we went across the street, it was total chaos. It was. But that's where she had to live.
Amber Flemings: When you say chaos, what happened? Well, I mean.
Patricia Flemings: Everybody, it was behind that wall. It was horrible. The houses were horrible. I mean, it looked like something out of a movie. It was horror. It was horrible. You know, people lived in rooms and it was just a mess. The streets were crowded. Mm hmm. And my sister had an apartment over a house. Mm hmm. And that was the smallest apartment I had ever seen in my life. And I stayed there with her for a week. And so she was pregnant? Mm hmm. And we decided we wanted to go downtown because we were not accustomed to all of this, you know? So we wanted to go downtown and have some lunch and, you know, do a little shopping. Mm hmm. And they told us that we had to sit in the back of the bus.
Amber Flemings: Oh, you hadn't an experience that.
Patricia Flemings: Never, ever had us experienced anything like that. And my sister said, I'm not. We're not sitting in the back of the bus. Mm hmm. And so he says, Well, you can't ride the bus. She says, Well, you do. We're not getting off. You know, my husband is a soldier and I'm sitting in the back of the bus. Mm hmm. And they wanted to put us off the bus, but they couldn't because laws were being implemented. They couldn't do it. Mm hmm. But anyway, when we went downtown, the people would not. They wouldn't. Services, uh, you know, and we had to go back home and have a sandwich.
Amber Flemings: Oh, wow. So growing up in Detroit, you know, compared to, like, that level of racism, you hit Tennessee.
Patricia Flemings: The only thing that I can remember when I was a kid, it was a Greenleaf restaurant on Woodward Avenue. Mm hmm. And we went to the church across the street from this particular place. And it was so amazing to me when I would go by this particular restaurant. We walked past the restaurant to go to the Penny Arcade every Sunday. Mm hmm. And I would look in that restaurant. There were no black people. They were servers. Mm hmm. But no black people were sitting in their restaurant. Mm hmm. And I always had it in my mind then when I get older. Mm hmm. I'm going to go to that restaurant and sit right here by this window.
Amber Flemings: What about that was just so important you have in making it a point to to grow up in sitting in that restaurant.
Patricia Flemings: Because I never saw a black person sitting down. My grandmother would always tells Chichi, Stop looking in that window. Stop looking at that window. And I just couldn't help it. And when I got I work when I got my first job, which is. Which was at Kress. Keith. Mm hmm. And I got my first paycheck, which wasn't very much. Mm hmm. I made it a point to go in that restaurant and sit in that window. And I had to call my mother. Because I ordered food that I could not afford. So I guess maybe that was why there were so many whites, only whites in that restaurant.
Amber Flemings: They were the only ones that could afford it.
Patricia Flemings: They were the only ones that could afford it. You know, being in that area, they were the only people they could do it.
Amber Flemings: They could do it. And so far, we talked about like our black bottom was like a mostly black area. And we talked about that's where your father grew. That's where he grew up in the in Black Byron, which was a predominantly black community. And we talked about where your grandmothers lived and how nice their neighborhoods, where and how much fun you had at their house and in the neighborhood. Where exactly did you grow up in Detroit?
Patricia Flemings: Well, I grew up over to my because then families live together. Mm hmm. So I lived with my grandmother. My grandmother lived with We lived with my mother's mother. Mm hmm. Okay. And so we lived in a good area. Okay. And then when my father, you know, got. Oh, when he went well, he decided he wasn't going to work in the factory, and he got his own business and stuff started. Mm hmm. This was years later. We lived on Log Cabin and Seven Mile, which was right across the street from Palmer Park. Mm hmm. So that was a really good area. Mm hmm. A really good area. And so it was. I loved it. I mean, it was a good area. It was a good place to live.
Amber Flemings: And that's where you grew up in?
Patricia Flemings: I grew up basically at my grandmother's house because we my mother put certain stipulations on us. Mm hmm. Stipulations We couldn't play with people that had not be here in the back, in the kitchen.
Amber Flemings: Oh, okay.
Patricia Flemings: You know, so what my sisters and I would do because we didn't catch busses, we would walk. Mm hmm. From Log Cabin and Seven Mile, was it Seven mile? Six mile. We would walk from there. Mm hmm. All the way to Buffoo. Oh, we would. Wow. We would walk downtown to the library. And then we stayed with my. When we were at my dad's mom's. Which was more fun because we lived right there on Palmer. And the art museum was there. The historical museum was there. The library was there. And so that's where we spend our time. Mm hmm.
Amber Flemings: So you your pastimes, you you used it to go to the museums and and to explore Detroit.
Patricia Flemings: Yeah, we just. And we walked. We walked everywhere, and it was always a group of us. And so we would walk all over the place. We would go to the library. We would go to the museums. We would touch the arm. We weren't supposed to. That's how we that's how we at that point in time, it was a little if they had a staircase going to the basement of the museum and we would go down there. That's where we learned about the Rembrandts and we would see the name on the picture. We would run to the library and find out who Rembrandt was. We would find out who this person was. You know, Monet? Who is Monet? I knew that they had Monet jewelry at Hudson's, but we didn't know who Monet was. And so we were. This is how we found our stuff. We were inquisitive and it was good. You know, it opened up a whole nother world.
Amber Flemings: How do you think that changed in Detroit? Kids going from the, you know, playing, playing around, being able to, you know, walk like you said, all the way from where you live, that all the way to the library and being able to to go from the museum, being able to go to the museum and travel just around Detroit safely, how do you think that's changed over time? And then you also said that you you guys were inquisitive and that you would go to the library and you'd research the things that you would learn. How do you think entertainment for kids have changed.
Patricia Flemings: In the show? Number one, they put a price on on the museums. Well, we will go. It was free. Mm hmm. We could just go in there, you know, And it was. They had a. Children's Museum across the street. It was just so many things that were free, you know? And they had a pet pool, which is right there on Hancock. I think it's on Hancock and John R now. It's across from the high. What is an art school there? By Wayne.
Amber Flemings: State of the art store.
Patricia Flemings: No it's not. A store is a school. It's part of Wayne State. But anyway, we got the mosaic on the wall.
Amber Flemings: College Of creative.
Patricia Flemings: Study.
Amber Flemings: Studies.
Patricia Flemings: Okay. All that stuff was, wasn't there? Mm hmm. And we could just anywhere we wanted to go, we could walk and just walk in, and we didn't have to pay. Mm hmm. You know, it's just different. And the safety? The city became unsafe when girls started getting raped. Snatched? Hmm. You know, or better still, meeting a guy that was selling drugs and exposing us to it. Mm hmm. You know, so parents could be footloose and fancy free with their children anymore because it was so many bikers out there that were after them, you know, because it was girls in the 70s that I knew from childhood. And you'd see them and they were addicted to drugs or alcohol. You know what I'm saying? So it was a totally different kind of flavor. They just didn't it was different. And then they started closing recreation centers. We had recreation centers. We had we always had something to do. You know, if it was anything but go to church, you know, because we would go to the church was right there on the Gospel Temple was right there on the corner. And they always had activities in the summer for the kids. Mm hmm. So we would do that. They didn't you know, it wasn't a free lunch program or anything like that. It was just you were a member of the church who was raised in Gospel Temple, you know, And we would just go there and they would like we would go on trips to Kensington or go to Belle Isle or stuff like that. You know, it was it was different. Mm hmm. You know, and then they they even the only thing that they've done really good. Okay, they did really good. They would bring. They had this garbage can. Mm hmm. This garbage. It was a garbage truck. Mm hmm. And they converted that into a pool for the city kids. Mm hmm. And it would come in different neighborhoods. They didn't have access to that. But thank God that our family was a little bit different because my grandmother had summer cottages, and she had one in Holly. She had one in Mackinaw. Mm hmm. You know, and when she married her last husband, he had one in pleasant, I think was pleasant. Pleasant Lake or something like that. Mm hmm. So we spent a lot of our summers up north. Mm hmm. Okay, so we enjoy coming to the city because it was. Different. Mm hmm. But basically, my our grandmother with her, my mother's mother would come and get us. Mm hmm. And we would spend our summers up north. You know, we had an apricot tree. We had apricot trees in the backyard. We had in the kitchen of the cottage. We had a pump. You know, where we pump our water? We had a bath tub. I mean, it was a house, you know, And so we didn't the time that we spent in the city was fine. Mm hmm. But we didn't spend a lot of time in the city.
Amber Flemings: During the summers.
Patricia Flemings: As young people. Yeah, During the summers.
Amber Flemings: When you were in the city? During the summer. Recreationally. You guys would go to the library, go to museums, learn more about things.
Patricia Flemings: And we go to Brewster Center. Mm hmm. Because my grandfather, he like that recreation center for whatever reason. Mm hmm. And so they would take us to Brewster Center. I was on a swimming team. Mm hmm. And we. It was. It was different. It was structured, but it was. It was. We go to the. It was a girl. It was a YWCA downtown. We would go there, you know, and it was. It was free then. It was just different things were different.
Amber Flemings: They things were different because when you were younger, things were either like $0.10, like they were cheaper or they were free to to give kids activities to free. They weren't just out and about like do getting in the trouble.
Patricia Flemings: You don't have to pay for day care. Uh, you know, it was, it was different, you know, And if you paid the women the pay, they were. It was a menial fee. You know, they wouldn't have to pay the kind of money that they pay now, you know? So it was. It was. And it was it was safe, you know, back in the 60s, in the seven 70s. Our parents wanted to keep us safe. Mm hmm. Okay. In the 70s, I was, bro. Mm hmm. So. But it was the city was changing.
Amber Flemings: So you say the city really started to undergo a huge change in the 60s and 70s?
Patricia Flemings: Yeah.
Amber Flemings: And that change happened in, like, not only cost, but in safety and in community. The community wasn't as tight knit as it used to be when the safety declined. And then also there was problems with heroin coming into the city. Yeah. And then also you mention prostitution. There was prostitution in the.
Patricia Flemings: Prostitution was rampant. It was it was rampant on 12th Street until street. Yeah, it was rampant. And so when they burned down 12th Street. Mm hmm. The prostitutes moved from 12th Street to Woodward Avenue.
Amber Flemings: So there was prostitution on 12th Street prior to the riots?
Patricia Flemings: Oh, yeah, because that's where everybody was.
Amber Flemings: So 12th Street was just like this. Like big happened in a place like this where all the businesses.
Patricia Flemings: And the girls worked in the bars and, you know, they worked in the bars and. They worked in the bars and. I think it was a I wish I could call Kathy and asked her, Can I do that? No.
Amber Flemings: I'm really sorry. I want to.
Patricia Flemings: Know. It was in this restaurant. It was they had one in New York and it was really everybody would go there after they would go to the bar at a bar with clothes. So he had.
Amber Flemings: Like a after hours.
Patricia Flemings: But it was no, it was it was a legal restaurant.
Amber Flemings: No, I mean, like a like when the bar closed down. It's the place everybody goes eat afterwards.
Patricia Flemings: They would go there or they would go to use Barbecue's Barbecue. It was on 12th Street. You know, there's a lot of places that they would go, you know, and they would have breakfast. And it was it was just different. But then you knew who the players were and who they weren't because they came in looking like Superfly. Superfly. Yeah. You know, that was they you.
Amber Flemings: Say you knew the players were. What do you mean? But like, who were the players and what did they do to be players?
Patricia Flemings: I mean, you know, they were in the underworld. They were gangsters. You know, they were pimps, prostitutes and and gangsters. Very gangsters. Yeah, but that's what a lot of killing was going on in Detroit.
Amber Flemings: And what time was this story?
Patricia Flemings: This was during the 70s. They killed a lot of people, you know.
Amber Flemings: So when the the pop up with the gangsters and stuff, this was also another reason.
Patricia Flemings: That's how they became gangsters.
Amber Flemings: Because of all the crime and things that were increasing in Detroit.
Patricia Flemings: Right. And it was all about drugs.
Amber Flemings: So of than drugs in the 70s.
Patricia Flemings: In the 70s.
Amber Flemings: Okay. Sorry. During the 60s and 70s when everything was changing and becoming less safe, less community oriented and more focused on crimes and drugs and everything. Where were you during this time in Detroit?
Patricia Flemings: I was I was I got married when I was 18. Mm hmm. Okay. And so because my mother was so strict, her and my dad, they were so strict. So I got married, and I decided to go to school for nursing. Mm hmm. And so basically, my time was spent. Going to school, you know? And then by me having a husband, I had to. I was a housewife and a student. You know, I. And I always had my nieces and my nephews. Mm hmm. So I wasn't involved in a lot of the stuff that was going on. Mm hmm.
Amber Flemings: So you always. You were always taking care of people, so you didn't really like you saw what was going on, but you weren't involved, what was going on because you were more family oriented.
Patricia Flemings: I was more family orientated, but I still had family members that were involved. Everybody I mean, people a lot of people would be ashamed to admit that. But I'm not ashamed of anything that my family has ever done. And my I had family members that were involved.
Amber Flemings: Mm hmm. That were involved in being gangsters or.
Patricia Flemings: And they were basically dope dealers, you know, And if you were a dope dealer, you came across gangsters. I mean, because they needed dope to get nerve up to kill. Oh. So I ran across people like that, which would be at my sister's house. Her and her husband. Oh.
Amber Flemings: Which sister was my oldest sister? Yeah, one sister. That was in Tennessee. And then you have one that stayed in Detroit?
Patricia Flemings: No, she was in Tennessee as long as her husband was stationed in that part of the world. But then she went to Alaska. Oh, that's another place. I went to Alaska. I went to Alaska with my sister and stayed for a couple of weeks.
Amber Flemings: How did you like that?
Patricia Flemings: I didn't. I didn't.
Amber Flemings: What about it was.
Patricia Flemings: It was cold and they moose would walk around. You'd look out the window, they'd be looking in the windows. You know, the women stunk. Oh, well, they start. Really? The Alaskan women? Mm hmm. They used that whale grease in their hair. Mm hmm. And it stuck to high heaven. Oh. And so for the soldiers to see me. A black girl from a city and not, you know, from Detroit, that was like, desert. So I had a ball with. With my brother in law's associates. Mm hmm. You know, because all the guys were, like, all around me. They just loved it.
Amber Flemings: All the other guys were excited to see, you know.
Patricia Flemings: A black woman.
Amber Flemings: In a black woman in the middle of.
Patricia Flemings: Alaska. that wasn't married.
Amber Flemings: That wasn't married.
Patricia Flemings: Yeah. And didn't have any children.
Amber Flemings: And didn't feel like.
Patricia Flemings: It didn't smell like whale oil, you know, and was attractive and was like, you know what I'm saying? And so I had a ball on that. But as far as Alaska as a place.
Amber Flemings: To live, it just wasn't for you.
Patricia Flemings: It just No, no. I went there because my sister had just had her baby delayed. She was about ready. She hadn't had it. She was getting ready to have it. Mm hmm. And she needed me there. Mm hmm. To help her with the baby for a while. So I stayed there for a while.
Amber Flemings: But you always came back to Detroit, correct?
Patricia Flemings: I always came back to Detroit. And my mother even told me in the 80s, I think it was the end of the 70s or the beginning of the 80s. My mother used to tell me, she told me, she says, you know, you know, they used to call me Chichi. But she says, Cheech, I think that sometimes you've got now you could get out of one place. Mm hmm. And it's time for you to relocate. And I thought about that for a long time, but I couldn't leave my mother.
Amber Flemings: And she wanted to stay in Detroit.
Patricia Flemings: She wanted to stay. But now that I'm older, I understood. I understand what she was saying. I could it because Detroit was like going through all kind of transitions and stuff was just not stable, you know? But if I had gone to another place, I could have gotten it together. She always considered me the strongest one of my sisters. Mm hmm. And she knew that if I went there, wherever I chose to be, it would be a good place. And if she chose to, she could come with me. Eventually, she probably would have followed me. Mm hmm. So. That's why I went to Toronto. That's because my mother. She was. She spent years in Toronto. Mm hmm. You know.
Amber Flemings: And so you follow her there? She followed you there?
Patricia Flemings: No, no, no, no, no. I went there once. Was. I think I was, like, 19. Mm hmm. I went there just to see. I liked it, but it was a costly place to live. Mm hmm. So I decided to come back.
Amber Flemings: So if it hadn't have been as costly, do you think you would have stayed in Toronto as opposed to Detroit?
Patricia Flemings: I think I would have, because I really liked Toronto. It was it was very little racism, you know? My mother spent experience with racism in. Quebec. Mm hmm. A guy she and I, we were walking down the street, and he spit at us. Mm hmm. But I think that was not like. Oh, you know what I'm saying? That never happened in Toronto.
Amber Flemings: So Toronto there was very little.
Patricia Flemings: Racism. It was. It was like. It was liberating. It was liberating. Yeah, it was liberating. I mean, because they were it was a different kind of people. The city was clean, you know, It was just a good place to be, you know. And so but I would have stayed there. But it was really, really costly.
Amber Flemings: You said that you always came back to Detroit because Detroit was home. Mm hmm. Can you explain more about, like, why why Detroit was just always home?
Patricia Flemings: Number one, my mother was here. Mm hmm. And any place my mother was was home. My grandmothers were here. Mm hmm. And they were getting older. Mm hmm. And my father was negligent of his mother. Mm hmm. And so I wanted to make sure that everybody was okay. And any place where family is as home as home.
Amber Flemings: And that's where you always came back to Detroit.
Patricia Flemings: That's always came back.
Amber Flemings: Regardless of, like, the changes that was going on in Detroit and the lack of safety.
Patricia Flemings: I always thought that it would get better. I was always hopeful for the city. Mm hmm. I always felt as though it's going to get better. And because I had seen Detroit go through changes before and we always bounce back. Mm hmm. Okay. So I felt in my heart that things were going to get better. I remember when the men in Detroit didn't have jobs. Mm hmm. And then all of a sudden, it wasn't all of a sudden. But then people got jobs. Everybody was working. Mm hmm. That was the way Detroit was. It was off and on. Mm hmm. So through that, you learn to save your money, you know, because this isn't going to last forever. Mm hmm. You learn it gets something substantial. Mm hmm. Like a house. You know, you learn to do things differently. But, yeah, I was stuck. The choice with would eventually be what she used to be.
Amber Flemings: So do the ups and downs. Detroit taught you to be resilient in the save your chips, save your money to, you know, enjoyed the good times were prepared for the worst.
Patricia Flemings: Yes.
Amber Flemings: Okay. I guess my next question would just be. How do you feel about Detroit today? Like with this changes, with this the decline there, you think? How do you feel about today's Detroit? Do you have hope for it to end? Do you still have hope that Detroit will improve, or are you just ready to throw your hands up?
Patricia Flemings: I still hope that Detroit I still have hope. A lot of hope. I still have faith. I think that's what keeps me going. Mm hmm. I still. Do it. The kind of work that I've done in my life. I've seen things change. I've seen people change. I've seen mothers. I seen mothers that were really mothers. Mm hmm. And I've seen their children grow up. Mm hmm. To kill their children or walk away from their kids. This is something that was never heard of, you know? So I have a lot of hope for Detroit. But I think that there's a lot of things that have to be implemented. For. I don't think it'll ever be like it was. That's over. But I think that we could get awfully close if we if if we as Detroiters, start communicating with our neighbors because we don't know our neighbors. Mm hmm. You know, we need to know who we're living next to. Mm hmm. We need to stop that. No snitching stuff. That's ridiculous. Mm hmm. I mean, I think that these people that's still in metal in. In tearing up our property. I mean, these properties are valuable pieces of history. Mm hmm. And these guys, I mean, they have no respect. Mm hmm. People have no respect for each other anymore. They don't. When I was coming up, if a senior got on the bus, we had to get up. Mm hmm. You know, we didn't have to, but we were taught that's what you do. Mm hmm. I think that people have lost that. They don't respect the elderly. They don't respect each other. Mm hmm. It needs a lot of work. We need a lot of prayer. Mm hmm. Everybody in this city needs to set aside a time where we as a people pray for our city. Because at this point, Duggan ain't gonna do it. Okay. You know, it's. It's. It's only so much he can do. Mm hmm.
Amber Flemings: So. The the best way to improve Detroit at this point with all this changes and how much is kind of decline is to first start with prayer, to then stop the no statue rule, to support your neighbors, to to not only know your neighbor, but to care for them. Mm hmm. And then that would improve the city a lot. That would bring it. If not back to is is brilliance that it was when you grew up, it would at least bring close to that that beautiful nest that you grew up with.
Patricia Flemings: I think yes, I think that. But we have to change people's minds. We have to change people's mindset. Mm hmm. You know, and so many because of the 70s and the 60s. Mm hmm. You know, so many people are. Their brains are twisted and messed up. You know, we don't have mental facilities in this city anymore. And I think that that's really something that's really needed. Jail is jail. And I think that we do need a jail in the city. We don't need 4 or 5 jails in the city. Mm hmm. I think people if you give give people jobs, they will work. Mm hmm. You know, I think that if you give people therapy and get their mind straight, I think that they'll be an asset to the city. You know, I think that if they change public assistance around. Mm hmm. And. And start taking care of these kids. Mm hmm. You know, I think that there should be a limit on how many kids. I know that that sounds like. Communism or whatever, but I think that I don't think that women should have multiple children by multiple men. And they're not there. Mm hmm. To support your children, I think men need to learn what a father really is. I think the reason they're not fathers is because they never had a father. Mm hmm.
Amber Flemings: So.
Patricia Flemings: We go a lot of work.
Amber Flemings: A lot of a lot of work that that needs to be done in Detroit to get it back to what it was like. It needs. It needs better. It needs more work. It needs It needs more jobs. It needs better. What is it? Not necessarily health care. Better support for the women who have multiple children and know. And then also people's mindset needs to be changed as far as family.
Patricia Flemings: We need more schools, I think. I don't think that they should shut another closed another school down. Mm hmm. I think that there should be schools. I think schools should be plentiful. Mm hmm. You know what I'm saying? Because without education, there's no future. Mm hmm. Okay. I think that all these children is running. Running around in gangs. When I came up, it had gangs. Mm hmm. You know, they did have one gang over Eastside called them shakers. Mm hmm. That was dissolved in no time. I think that we need a good police force. I think we need people that live here in the city. You can't come from Troy. Mm hmm. And fix the ills of. What's going on in Detroit? Mm hmm. You can't come from Birmingham and places like this. Mm hmm. You know, in Farmington and Fix Detroit. Mm hmm. I think Detroit Detroiters need to get together and work on fixing Detroit. It's not going to happen in my lifetime. I understand that. Mm hmm. But I think that in 30, 40 years from now, Detroit should be. Oh, the place to come. Instead of the place not to visit. Hmm. You know, I think Detroit is a beautiful city. It have. I think she has a lot to offer. Mm hmm. I think the people. I'm not blame. I think that the people and the politicians that we have elected have chosen to tear apart piece by piece. I think that they're working on downtown because they're not working on downtown for you or I. Mm. Okay. I think they're working on downtown and Belle Isle. And I mean, just like I was listening to an interview the other day on Belle Isle. Mm hmm. We should have watched that being what's happening in Detroit. I wanted to see that this morning. But anyway, they're implementing this. I think, you know, I've always been for reform when it comes to Bella. Mm hmm. But now they've got these state troopers of park rangers which have the same authority as state troopers. Mm hmm. And they're all of another race. Mm hmm. They're going to come into Belle Isle and search our baskets because there's no drinking at the island, which I agree with. But I don't go along with that because. Because. Stop all mentality. Mm hmm. And that's what's going to happen. Somebody. Something bad is going to happen. Mm hmm. You know, I mean, just like the seniors swing out. They don't involve it. When I graduated, that's what we did. That was a ritual. That's what you do. You go to Belle Isle and you swing out, and the only thing you're doing is riding in the car, blowing your home girls, and riding on the car. You know, the guy riding on the cars. It's a tradition. Mm hmm. That's what we do. Mm hmm. That's what we've always done. That's what my mother did. That's what, you know, everybody that I could think of. Everybody does a swing out. Mm hmm. You know, And now you're not gonna be able to do that at Belle Isle. I think it's a travesty. Hmm. You know, it's not a lot for the people in Detroit to do. There's nothing when you really think about it, there's absolutely nothing in Detroit that where you could go in and enjoy it. You know, Palmer Park is not a good park because it's full of homosexuals. So if you got kids, you got a really you know, you got to it's it's not a good place. Mm hmm. You know, because it's full of all these perverted people. And, I mean, it's just Detroit is salvageable. Mm hmm. If the right people get together salvage it, you know, and make it not only for one race of people, make it for all people. Just like I said when I came up, it was a Chinese family that owned clothing a store. It wasn't just a black community. It was a community. It was all kind of people. And I think that's what we need to aim for. You know, we need to aim for Detroit being pleasant for everybody. I think it should be something everybody should want to come to, you know, not because, you know, this is one of the president most prejudiced cities. It's it's really not good because if you go up north, you might not come back in certain parts. Mm hmm. When you the further north you go, the worse it is. And, I mean, this is stuff that people know but they don't publicize. Mm hmm. There's so much stuff going on. All this hate and, you know, stuff. It needs to stop, because in the year 2050, everybody's going to be beige anyway. Mm hmm. You see what I'm saying? So all this race stuff needs to go. Mm hmm. All these drug dealers. And they're not going to go away. Mm hmm. But they need to be. They need to go. I mean, really, you know, they need to stop. They sell drugs to kids. That's not good. I mean, Detroit is a wonderful place, you know? But I'm scared. The real you know, I'm scared to drive alone at night. Mm hmm. You know, we never know who's coming to replace our so on.
Amber Flemings: Yeah. All we've talked about is about where your parents grew up. And we talked about where your father and your mother grew up in Detroit and talked about where you grew up in Detroit. It's about how Detroit has changed over time. I went from a community, a safe community to a drug resistant, drug infested Detroit that it is today. And now it's not safe to walk down the street, even if you are just going to a library or to drive alone at night. And we've also talked about what you feel will be the solutions to try to get Detroit back to what it was, back to back to this community, feel safe and good. And during that, you mentioned several ways that you felt like could help improve Detroit, whether it was with prayer or if it was opening up more recreation centers. So it can be some some type of activities for people to do to just have fun. You mentioned a few options. At this time, I would like to thank you for this interview. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I hope that you have too. And once again, thank you for this interview.
Patricia Flemings: You're welcome. Glad I could be of assistance.
Amber Flemings: Yeah. Thank you. Bye.
Patricia Flemings: Let me hear.
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Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Patricia Flemings, March 8th, 2014
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview, Patricia Flemings shares the story of her life growing up in a Detroit neighborhood, as well as her transition into adulthood.
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
Rights
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Detroit Historical Society
Language
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en-US
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Detroit Journeys by Marygrove College
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
Rights
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Detroit Historical Society
Language
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en-US
Creator
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Marygrove College
Oral History
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Narrator/Interviewee's Name
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Earnest Stamps
Brief Biography
A short biography of the Interviewee
Earnest Stamps lived in Detroit for over thirty years and worked as a pharmacist until his retirement. At the time of this recording, Stamps was eighty-two years old.
Interviewer's Name
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Diana Cher
Interview Place
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Detroit, MI
Date
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4/08/2006
Interview Length
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22:06
Transcription
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Diana Cher: It is April 8th, 2006. The interviewer is are the interviewee is Ernest Stamps. The interviewer is Diana Cher. We were at Mary Grove College. Mr. Stamps, could you tell me a little about yourself in the background?
Ernest Stamps: About my present self. Are you going to go back in?
Diana Cher: Why don't you say a little bit about your present self?
Ernest Stamps: I'm a retired pharmacist living in Southfield after having lived in Detroit for 30 plus years. No much longer than that. Now that I think about it, having lived in Detroit all my life, except for ten years, shall we say. I'm now 82 years old and. I'm enjoying life and I'm fortunate to live this long.
Diana Cher: So And you've prepared something for the Association of Black Storytellers?
Ernest Stamps: Oh, yes. I haven't mentally prepared nothing that I've tried to lay down, but I speak from my memory.
Diana Cher: Could you share some of that with me?
Ernest Stamps: Yes. I can go back in my memory to a very early age. I seem to have a good recollection. Some people seem to think I do, but I can remember things as early as when I was six, five, even four years old. Really? And we were in Atlanta, Georgia. I had a sister and brother older than I rather than my grandparents before us. And I guess about that time, which might have been in the late 1920s, word must have come to you that there was a great deal being offered in the North, that that exceeded the self esteem and people were working a dollar for a dollar a day. Hard, backbreaking labor men in the fields picking cotton, blowing women doing housework and laundry for a dollar a day. So $5 a day sounded pretty good. And many families, black and white, left the South. My father left first. No, my grandparents left first. They came north to Detroit and must have sent word back. And my father left with my older brother and sister to Detroit, and my mother brought me up later. We were the last to leave in the immediate family.
Diana Cher: How old were you when you came? How old were you then?
Ernest Stamps: I always I must have been about 4 or 5. I must have been. I can remember riding the train very excited by it and afraid of it because the train was so learned and the wheels were so big and the steam was shooting up from between the wheels. And as I as we walked toward the train, all this noise and I was hanging on to my mother's hand and it was an exciting time. So I do remember we had the usual shoe box and they let us out with the chicken and the biscuits and sweet potato pie. And by the time we got to Cincinnati was where people changed trains. They were going north. They got off the Jim Crow coach and got into regular coach. They were going south from Detroit. They got off the train, got out of the railroad coach and went and got under Jim Crow. Coach.
Diana Cher: Could you explain the Jim Crow coach?
Ernest Stamps: Well, Jim Crow is where all the black people had to go. They couldn't sit in the regular coaches in the South. And of course, they certainly couldn't sit in the podium and have a Pullman coach where there was a bet. So Jim Crow was what it was called when it was designated for black people only. So we changed coaches. And I remember I thought the the porter or whatever he was there was very kind to me because he gave me a candy bar. And little did I know that the mother had paid for it, but he did give it to me. And I think I talked about that for a while after we got North that this nice man and the folks that gave me the candy bar anyway.
Diana Cher: Nice mother.
Ernest Stamps: Whatever. I don't remember the exact time it took the time that it took to get to Detroit. But I do remember we got off the train and walked through what was then the Michigan Central Station and more. That big place with the high ceilings and the walls and the marble floors and the benches and whatnot in the back, a grand place to me. And I do remember we got on a streetcar with white love, and we had. Rolled into the downtown area. And my mother told me years later that when after two days or more on the train, when we got in the streetcar, I said, Oh, we're going to have a girl right now. And she was tired. She could be, but I wasn't. Anyway, we took the we changed the streetcar somewhere in downtown Detroit and rode out to where my father had a house He had rented a place on. Russell and Mullet, I seem to remember, was 1444, a Mullet. There was a row of what was called cottages, very small houses, two rows, in fact, facing Mullet Street. And the court behind the first row of houses was a second row. Maybe 6 or 8 cottages, houses to a row. My father and mother and I, we lived in the first house in the first row. My grandparents lived directly behind us in the first house in the second row. So I was just a hop, skip and a jump to go across the yard where they lived for whatever reason. And my father had secured a job not not with Mr. Ford, as he was called, but. Michigan copper and brass, I seem to recall, was the name of the place where he was hired. And. We were in an area that was called Black Bottom. If anyone's been around Detroit, I probably have heard of Black Bottom from years gone by, and we did pretty good for a year or so. But apparently the stock market crashes. The economic picture got very bad. So much so that I know now. That was the start of the Depression, which must have been around 1929, 30, 31 through in there. And my father was young and his hormones flowing wildly. He didn't take care of home very well at all. A lot of arguing between him and my mother as to what he did with his money because he certainly wasn't bringing it home. And in time he just abandoned us. And my poor mother had three children to raise and no skill. So for him there was a welfare and a red lines and we were in those, if I remember very well, we would go to this what was what was referred to as a kitchen on Monroe, near Shane, near Duffield School. We'd go there for breakfast in the morning and that's where I learned to hate shredded wheat, among other things, shredded wheat, chocolate pudding. And I figure I was something else I didn't like. The shredded wheat would never get soft, and the milk was like a mouthful, strong. And I would complain about it. My mother would say, Shut up and eat it. So I shut up and I never learned to like it until I got grown. And when we would leave to go to school, we would have our breakfast there in the morning before school and see all our friends and relatives and Lord knows who else there because everybody was in the same boat. Wasn't it a disgrace to be poor? Because everybody we know report on just just the facts, why and when we would leave to go to school, they would as you went out, they would hand you a sandwich and an apple sandwich. Always turned out to be I didn't know at the time what it was, but it was apple butter smeared on two pieces of bread. And that was that was supposed to be your lunch if you couldn't do any better. But my mother somehow and we worked together a day or two and she would say, come home for lunch and we would go home for lunch instead of staying at school. And we should have tomato soup or some such thing and crackers for lunch. And it was fine. So I was all right, was fine. And we'd go back to school anyway as time went on. Oh, I forgot to mention that the activities of the area where I was sort of centered around the UNI Hall, which was the United Negro Improvement Association. Where the Marcus Garvey movement was very dominant. Every Sunday we went there for whatever was happening. I thought it was church, but it was. A meeting of the various influential people, such as they were in the area in which we talked about going back to Africa. And right now I can't remember why we would want to, but other than to recall that Marcus Garvey was the head of the middle man, it was his desire. And a lot of people thought it was a good thing that we go back to Africa. But as you may know, it didn't didn't happen anyway. They had lots of meetings there for. The kids and things to keep the kids busy. And down the street from that was the Christian center was calm and there we really had fun. They had a big gymnasium like a room that we could play on a on a gym floor with a basketball or what have you. And we enjoyed going there and had all kinds of seasonal programs for Easter and Thanksgiving or what have you. But we went to school and caper and school, which is on May 4th and started kindergarten there. But we went there until we got to the second grade, then went to the went to Duffield. And I recall I was double promoted from the second grade to the third grade there. And then I went to Barstow and it so happened the. Economic picture got so bad. And my mother, we were already on welfare. She had to apply for even greater assistance and we children were put into the foster care situation. Children's Aid Society came into our life and we were placed in foster homes because mother just couldn't make it. She had no skill and couldn't make enough money to feed three children. So we were all put in foster homes. But my sister, who was almost 12 or 13, almost 18 year age, and my mother thought it better to go back and get my sister out and she could tell she had been better with just one child and with two. And besides, this was a girl and she didn't want our way from from her care. So my brother and I were left in our homes. You stayed in foster homes, various homes for three years until around 1937. So it must have been around 1934 when we went in. And it was a good thing for us. Looking back on it, I can say that it was really a good thing because it gave us a structured life. Who had the time to go to bed, the time to get up. We had to do our homework and show that we had done it. Of course, we went to school every day and grades and looked after we were in church. All of that on Sunday from before, I think before, and it's called until after evening church. But it turned out to be a good thing because it certainly kept us out of trouble or we did have a free hand, more or less, when before we went into the homes. And my father was nowhere to be seen. When he abandoned the family, he abandoned the family. He was definitely out of the picture. I found out later and he was in Detroit all the time, but we kids never saw him. And I don't think my mother did either. She didn't have a very happy married life with him, and it had caused me a lot of traumatic reactions. A stammer. I went to bed and things that I had no idea was causing it, but the insecurity of the life that I had there, I must have felt it. And I showed it in that way. And not being being as poor as we were, my clothes weren't the best. And, oh, and I had a physical deformity too. I had to cost. I saw what the cost. I. Mean the clothes looking like they had come from the women, probably. And they did. My mother couldn't buy shoes. She couldn't do what needs to be done. So for healing, when we went into foster home, the first thing they did, they gave me a pair of glasses which corrected the crossed eye long as I had glasses on and they gave us some decent clothes and I never been so dressed up in all my life. I didn't know what a suit was. And water called Zealand. And so we went to this foster home and we were well, we were treated like we were their children, which was a great thing. And I said before that was a good thing for us. I didn't realize it at the time, but anyway, I stayed in the foster home until 1937 when Roosevelt, I think, was the new president, and the NRA came along and a number of races occurred within the wages of the working class. And my mother, oh, who had a security job at Kern's at $8 a week. One of the maids in their countries department store in Detroit was the when the NRA came along. Somehow Rose's took it took if they went, the government subsidized them. I don't know what they had to raise from $8 to the magnificent sum of $14 a week. And what happened? We came home from school one day and the lady whose home we were living in announced that the worker would be coming for us the next day to take us to our mother. We were glad to go back home to Mother, wherever she was. Sure enough, the next day our things were packed up into. Just three bags or what have you. And my brother and I got in the car and he took us over to where mother was. The mother wasn't home. This is a boarding house like she had come in from work and. He just left us there. So we'll just have a seat. Your mother be Armstrong. Turns out we didn't know. Didn't know we were coming. They hadn't told her. She got that 14 bucks a week. That meant from now on, baby, it's your responsibility. And that's why we were dumped on her. Unceremoniously. We were happy, but I guess she was overwhelmed anyway. This is a. She was living in Palmer near near both school. But I was just starting the seventh grade, so both she and I went to the sixth. Instead. We had to go to Garfield, right? That's where Garfield was. And we were enrolled there and had a very hard time because a mother making 14 bucks a week. I was the youngest and I think I was 11. My sister, who was then about 16, maybe 15 brother was like 14 or 15. So I was a baby. And we were we all had to go to school. They rarely dropped out. Neither one of them finished, finished high school. My brother dropped out in the 10th grade, Sister dropped out in 11th so they could help at home. My mother wasn't making enough money and I stayed in school. I had no desire to drop out and I was encouraged to drop out and for which I'm glad. But I was fortunate in that I learned to read At an early age. My sister would come home from school and we would play school and what we should learn in school during the day with your teacher. And I was learning and didn't realize that we were having the fun, didn't have TV, radio. And I learned to read and to and to love books. I remember that when I discovered the main library on what was there, I thought that was the grandest building. And that there was an inexhaustible supply of books. And I remember I would spend a lot of my time reading when one of the when the other kids were out playing ball or any physical activity. I played ball and I ran up and down the streets, too. But I like to read. And I discovered there were there were other worlds besides when I was growing up in force, I never got in trouble. I never felt that. I figured I was smart enough to get out of any job. But my God, in contrast, I had a brother who figured that way out of anything. But. I would. I never skipped school. I used to hear the kids talk about skipping school and what they did. While I couldn't see any sense in me skipping, casue I didn't have any money and everybody I knew would be in school. If I skipped school, what would I do? You just walk the streets and some of the kids would walk around downtown. That never made sense to me, so I never skipped school. And as I said before, I didn't think I could talk one way out or anything. So it kept me from and I figured if one person get caught, it was going to be me. So whatever I thought I wanted to do, I never did it anyway. I eventually said in school, of course. And that's how far we'll continue with this.
Diana Cher: Well, we're. And eight-teen minutes remaining. You got him.
Ernest Stamps: Until you told him.
Diana Cher: Yeah. You found a you find a good stopping point for yourself.
Ernest Stamps: Oh, yeah. Well, anyway, I did stay in school. I. Went to Cass after Garfield. And at the time, I thought I wanted to be a poet. I used to write a lot of poetry, and I thought I wanted to be a poet. Thought I wanted to be a writer. I thought I wanted to be a scientist. I remember I am home on Christmas. My mother got a Christmas bonus from Kerns. Couldn't have been too large, but anyway, it caused her to give the kid some money. She gave me a dollar a whole dollar. That was my whole life. So they had a lot of toy toy lands. They called them downtown and Crawlers, Hudsons and Herons. I got on there and I had money and I just go from one floor to another looking at all the toys. So I remember when I was in Kern this time, and I'm looking over the microscopes and the telescopes and always fascinating to look for. A microscope magnified some of the look. And I was looking at the scales on a butterfly's wings or some I knew something and I asked the young man who saw them how much the microscope sets were. they were in a set. I said she was something like $10, or he might have said a thousand. I said, Oh, no. He said to me, Don't you have any money? Have $10 as well. How much do you have as well? That's sort of right. Come on. How much have you got? I said I've got a dollar. I have known for a while. He said, Well, I'm sorry. Okay, go on. Is it. Wait a minute. Don't go away. So one of the bad things came. I had this microscope and it had been broken, but it was still usable. And he said, Well, I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll let you have his microscope. He gave me some slides. Some were already prepared and specimens were already mounted on them. He gave me a number and a book explaining use of the microscope and what not. And here you have a sit down. Oh, boy. I was tickled to death. I think I ran all the way home. When I got home, I sat down in the kitchen and started looking at what had given me. And I told it all, the gang in the neighborhood. Everybody was coming into our house to look on my microscope And the only specimens I could get were the bugs that were around and never the usual butterflies and the roaches. And I would learn the scales on the butterflies wings, and then I'll catch a fly, magnify the head, you know, And you see all the flies have compound eyes as you know. You see all the various hexagonal shapes. And I thought that was really grand and that started me wanting to be a scientist. So. When I got to Cass, oh, I was in science curriculum, and that's where I started toward my fulfilling my desire later on to become a pharmacist. That occurred after I got in service. And I realized as a writer a couple of years after I got out of serious before I could write a great American novel and make $1 million. So I'd better pick something that I could make a buck at a reasonable period of time. And I'm scientists to chemists, to pharmacists, which I am today, retired.
Diana Cher: Thank you so much for sharing the story that you have with us.
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Earnest Stamps, April 8th, 2006
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview, Earnest Stamps talks about growing up in Detroit, where he watched his parents work and raise him. In doing so, Stamps was inspired to stay in the city and continue working in his community.
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
Rights
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Detroit Historical Society
Language
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en-US
-
Dublin Core
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Title
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Detroit Journeys by Marygrove College
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
Rights
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Detroit Historical Society
Language
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en-US
Creator
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Marygrove College
Oral History
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Narrator/Interviewee's Name
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Keith Arnold
Brief Biography
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Keith Arnold was born in 1943, and lived in Buffalo, NY until he was 21. After helping his cousin move to Detroit, Arnold fell in love with the city and decided to pursue a life in Michigan.
Interviewer's Name
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Ashley Turner
Interview Place
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Detroit, MI
Date
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2/22/2012
Interview Length
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52:38
Transcription
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Ashley Turner: Okay. The name of the interviewer is Ashley Turner. The name of the interviewee is Keith Arnold. Today's date is February 22nd, 2012. The place is Detroit. Listen, I am Mr. Arnold's home, and I went over the confidentiality and consent form. I read to you. You know, the confidentiality. And you know, when I'm doing this, when you sign the consent form. Do I have the consent? Yes. Okay. Okay. I want to start off the interview by asking you, how are you doing today?
Keith Arnold You're doing real good. After.
Ashley Turner: Okay. All right. So you had to go to dialysis today? Yes. How was that?
Keith Arnold Well, it's not as bad as we want to be, but I have to deal with it. You live.
Ashley Turner: Yeah. Okay, So I'll just want to go into. I want to go to the interview. First of all, where are you originally from?
Keith Arnold Buffalo, New York.
Ashley Turner: Okay. Um, so you were born there? Yes. Around when were you born?
Keith Arnold On April 5th, 1943.
Ashley Turner: Okay. Can you tell me a little about. A little bit about the time and how it was when when you were when you were born in New York? By the time like the time frame and how things were going on around. Do you know any of any of it.
Keith Arnold Not when I was born?
Ashley Turner: Okay. So you never heard any stories or anything about what the Times were like?
Keith Arnold No, not really. Okay. Maybe a little later in life.
Ashley Turner: I never heard about the 40s later in life.
Keith Arnold Yeah.
Ashley Turner: Okay. So. Did you. Did you grow up in New York.
Keith Arnold Till I was 21 or 2.
Ashley Turner: Okay. So can you tell me about what it was like growing up there?
Keith Arnold It was a fun place. Had a lot of friends, and maybe was my neighborhood. And my best friend lived next door to me in a house that was owned by my grandmother, grandfather. And it's like a duplex, like not a duplex, but another home that belonged to the home we lived in and had a bunch of friends on the street. We play all kinds of games and basketball and baseball and swimming and things we used to do, like go to the slaughterhouse and fish chickens and bring em homes and cook. Our parents would get mad becasue we were bringing home roosters. We didn't know that there.
Ashley Turner: Was a.
Keith Arnold Rooster here. Yeah. One day I tell the story.
Ashley Turner: Yeah, go ahead.
Keith Arnold One day I was out there. I fell into a whole chicken mess, if you know what I'm talking about.
Ashley Turner: Some chicken poop?
Keith Arnold Yeah. And I had to get on the bus to come home.
Ashley Turner: So. So you had. So you pretty much had fun growing up?
Keith Arnold Yes, I had a ton of fun. In the wintertime, we used to play King of the Mountain because we had so much snow in Buffalo that when the church pushed it to the side, you got to house when you get into the streets or we call them king, we call the mountains. So we got to go to the top of that mountain so you could stand around without getting thrown off.
Ashley Turner: Without sliding off of them.
Keith Arnold Not getting thrown off by your friends.
Ashley Turner: Oh, your friends would throw.
Keith Arnold You on the king of the mountain where you get out there and stay longest.
Ashley Turner: Oh, okay. So it was. It was more like a like a challenge or like, fight or something.
Keith Arnold Yeah, like, a fun game.
Ashley Turner: Okay.
Keith Arnold Look, on the back of cars in the winter slide down the street, there were no dangers around thing to do. But we did it anyhow, you know? I didn't know I never got hurt, but it was a stupid thing to do.
Ashley Turner: Okay.
Keith Arnold Then after that, I do. A lot of sport things, you know, a lot of competition like that. Trying to run track and track when I was in school. Was pretty good. And I do. I do a lot of sports as well so that everybody in neighborhood and do a lot of sport things stay active. Yeah.
Ashley Turner: So I know you mentioned before you said something about your friends and your best friends. Yeah. How did you how did you meet your friends and what were they like?
Keith Arnold I said, my best friend, he lived next door in a house that was a part of our house. So kind of a do that.
Ashley Turner: Like it was connected.
Keith Arnold It wasn't connected, but it belonged to that house. So it was like a back in the days, like maybe the we had a big house and they had a little house. Like it could have been like something from the south where they had a few houses for the servants and the maids and stuff, and then the big house for the people around owners.
Ashley Turner: Okay.
Keith Arnold Kind of like.
Ashley Turner: Okay. So what were they like? I mean, what were your friends like growing up?
Keith Arnold Oh, my best friend Dale is kind of a big time operator here. He's got a big company that produces wheels for General Motors.
Ashley Turner: Here in Michigan. Mhm. Oh, okay.
Keith Arnold Yeah, I was in Flint and I might have moved since. You know, I say my last is.
Ashley Turner: He's still living.
Keith Arnold Yes.
Ashley Turner: So how was he when you guys were growing up. Was he was pretty outgoing like he is now.
Keith Arnold Yeah, he was. He was a brain guy. He was very smart, the.
Ashley Turner: Smart.
Keith Arnold Books and stuff. And he went to college, got some degrees and opened up a business. A business, You know, you got married here and opened up a business. Yeah.
Ashley Turner: Okay. So is that who you pretty much spent most of your time with?
Keith Arnold Yeah, when I was younger. Then there was a couple of more kids that I went to school with, and we used to, like, spend the night in each other's house. You know, I'm black and they were white. And we. We had a good communication with each other.
Ashley Turner: Okay. So I hear you say that you you're black. Were all your friends white?
Keith Arnold No.
Ashley Turner: That's just a.
Keith Arnold Mixture.
Ashley Turner: How was that? How was it as far as race growing up, isn't it Sounds like that there was it.
Keith Arnold Didn't have any problems as children with that race issue. I have plenty of white friends and plenty of black friends and different nationalities, too. You know, friends. They didn't believe in that stuff back in the days like they do now. Well, at least in Buffalo, they didn't at that time. There was no race hatred. And, you know, people being down for the color of their skin and stuff. Okay. Yeah, we have real nice friendships.
Ashley Turner: So that was nothing that you ever had to deal with?
Keith Arnold No, I do.
Ashley Turner: Okay.
Keith Arnold Matter of fact, I never dealt with racism until I got to Detroit.
Ashley Turner: Oh, okay. So when you were growing up in New York, who did you who did you live with as a kid?
Keith Arnold There were my mother, my grandmother when I was a baby. If you know, I live with my mother, father till I was about six year old. And my mother and my father separated. And I lived with my mother and my grandmother. She raised me all the way from then on, you know.
Ashley Turner: Your mother and your grandmothers and.
Keith Arnold For a minute I live with my mother, my stepfather. She had married a year ago. And I think that I was around 13 years old. That was that. You know, I went back to my grandmother.
Ashley Turner: After your mom got remarried. Yeah. You went back to stay with your grandmother? Yeah. Where did you go back to stay with your grandmother?
Keith Arnold Well, we didn't get along to good.
Ashley Turner: You and the stepfather at first.
Keith Arnold Then we did, but we didn't. It just confused them because they didn't have any children.
Ashley Turner: Oh, yeah. So it's a little bit different for him to adjust to having a kid. Mhm. How did that. How did it make you feel?
Keith Arnold Oh i liked them, I didn't have a problem actually with them. Well we used to go fishing together and hunting together and he showed me a whole lot of thing he worked for. Air. Air for. Their airplane company flying over the bell aircraft. And, you know, he was kind of intelligent. Smart, too. It was like he wasn't an engineer and he was close to it. Mhm. Okay.
Ashley Turner: So what was your mom and your grandma like growing up?
Keith Arnold I would love to be a grandmother. She was a stone. She had a little grocery store and I used to go to work for help and stuff like that. Her and my grandfather. And. Working there for a while. Make a little money, go places, do things that were very nice and no problems. I was mischievous. Whatever, you know.
Ashley Turner: Okay. All right. So, so far, when I got from you that you were born. In the early 40s in Buffalo, New York. You had you had mixed friends, mixed races. You didn't really have to worry about too much of race issues back then. It was just all fine growing up with your friends and.
Keith Arnold And.
Ashley Turner: And you live with your your mom and your grandmother.
Keith Arnold I'm a grandfather. I'm sorry.
Ashley Turner: Oh, your grandfather, too? Yes. What was he like?
Keith Arnold Uh, he was. He was Indian. He was very, very quiet. He never said much. Talk much. But if he did start talking in that way, you see?
Ashley Turner: So was he. Would you say he was strict?
Keith Arnold No, he wasn't strict because, like I say, he never did say much.
Ashley Turner: Okay.
Keith Arnold But when he did, he meant what he said.
Ashley Turner: Now, what do you mean by that? You say he went when he said something. He meant.
Keith Arnold What? I mean, he was never tell you things to do or not to do too much because he ran up to my mother and my grandmother. But if he did say don't or do, he meant it. Yeah. He was a nice person, too.
Ashley Turner: Okay. So was your dad. Was he in the light? Because I hear you say that your parents split up when we six.
Keith Arnold Yeah.
Ashley Turner: Were was he around after that?
Keith Arnold He was around, but not often. Not like they ever lived together or anything, you know? I lived with them for a little while, too.
Ashley Turner: Okay, So you did stay with them while you were still in New York? Mm hmm. Okay. So how long did you stay with him?
Keith Arnold Most of the time with was like during the summer months when I was at school.
Ashley Turner: So you visit for the summertime?
Keith Arnold Yeah.
Ashley Turner: And so he was still pretty much a big part of your life when he was a kid. Mm hmm. Okay.
Keith Arnold Yeah.
Ashley Turner: So is there anything else that you remember that stood out about your childhood growing up in New York? Anything major happened while you were there?
Unidentified I made sure that I could think.
Keith Arnold I just had a few. You know, I'll take a little over some of the jobs that I work things to, you know, get myself prepared for manhood.
Ashley Turner: So you did work where you lived in Raleigh?
Keith Arnold Yeah.
Ashley Turner: Okay. You say. You say. You say that like you worked a lot. Well, I worked.
Keith Arnold At my grandmother's store. I worked at a place called Nathan Brothers. Transportation company. I worked at a place called Atlas Plastics, and I worked at a garage when a friend of mine tried to build up there. And I. It was the best feeling that. We were on cars and stuff. and we did pretty decent we were so young that things that were not too good for us that we didn't know the business aspects, that stuff like that. But.
Ashley Turner: You know, so you have a quite a few jobs over there. Yeah. Um, what was the purpose of you guys? Having so many different jobs.
Keith Arnold all of them than I did. Oh, well.
Ashley Turner: What was the purpose? If you have them, if.
Keith Arnold You know you have a job and you get laid off or you find something better with sweets and then when you get into your own trying to set up your own business, you leave the rest of that, you know, alone to set up some business for yourself. And we were adventurers, so we had set up this garage and business worked out pretty good for a while with the business aspects weren't to good because we weren't that, you know, mature enough that mature to take care of business the way it should have been taken care thinking more about. Young people stuff, you know.
Ashley Turner: So how old were you when you started working at your grandma store?
Keith Arnold About 12. When I first started working with him, yeah, I mostly helped him out at that time just because I'd be around.
Ashley Turner: Okay. Now, was there something that was normal for kids to start working that young back then?
Keith Arnold In a way, as big as it was in that, um, or, or where everybody needed to help if they wanted to do things for themselves, they needed that earned their own money and keeps those who had little part time jobs and the things they did to, to bring a little bit of money to go to shows and escape and different things like that.
Ashley Turner: Okay. So you weren't really you were never required to have a job? Oh, no. It was just by choice. They wanted to do. So sounds like you. You had a pretty decent childhood. Is that correct?
Keith Arnold Yes. pretty decent. if I could do it all over again.
Ashley Turner: If you would do it all over you.
Keith Arnold Was one of them.
Ashley Turner: So far we have that. You know, you had a pretty decent childhood growing up. You have a lot of friends. You were. Active in sports. Worked as a child by choice. Um. Did you contribute to any of the finances in your home?
Keith Arnold No, I didn't
Ashley Turner: Okay. So you didn't have to pay any bills or income? Okay, so all the income made from your job is strictly like your pocket money?
Keith Arnold Yes. I mean, I might give something, but it wasn't required.
Ashley Turner: All right. So did you say that that pretty much sums up some of the, you know, your childhood growing up in New York?
Keith Arnold Well, as far as my childhood, I would say yes. That's how I got to my early teens. I mean, yeah, late teens. I like to swear on his.
Ashley Turner: Late teens, early 20s.
Keith Arnold When I got married.
Ashley Turner: Okay. So tell me a little bit about that. How old were you when you got me?
Keith Arnold Well, the first time.
Keith Arnold I was 21. 21.
Ashley Turner: So tell me a little bit about about your marriage. How did you meet? How did you meet your.
Keith Arnold First day of school?
Keith Arnold The school we grew up boyfriend and girlfriend. Going to school.
Ashley Turner: Like high school, sweetheart?
Keith Arnold Yes.
Ashley Turner: So you were 21 when you got married. So would you say that this is the start of your adult life?
Keith Arnold Yes.
Ashley Turner: Okay. Okay. So,you got married you were still in New York.
Keith Arnold Yes.
Ashley Turner: Okay. So how did the marriage go about? Did you propose to her or did you guys.
Keith Arnold Something like that.
Ashley Turner: something like that. Yeah. Rain.
Keith Arnold Do I have.
Ashley Turner: Did you have one?
Keith Arnold Yes.
Ashley Turner: Okay. So you. So you kind of asked her to marry you or. Okay. All right. So what happened after that?
Keith Arnold Well, we had three children.
Ashley Turner: Okay. So you had three kids with your first wife? Mm hmm. How old were you when you had your first your first kid
Keith Arnold I think I was, I cant really remember, 20.
Ashley Turner: Okay. So you had your baby before you got married?
Keith Arnold Yeah. Okay.
Ashley Turner: How was that?
Keith Arnold It was rough.
Ashley Turner: It was rough? Tell me a little bit about that. Why was it?
Keith Arnold Well. Well, you know, first hand being very different is. At first we didn't. We weren't living together or anything. It was kind of difficult. But once we got married and got together, it was pretty nice.
Ashley Turner: Okay. So what would you say was difficult specifically about it? I hear you say that you weren't living together. So does that mean that you have the baby by yourself? Oh.
Keith Arnold No. It's just it was a difficult position because we weren't together, I guess, you know, being kind of young. Is this an awkward position? I guess.
Ashley Turner: Okay. Mm hmm. That is various aspects of parenthood. How was that like as far as financially taking care of the child?
Keith Arnold Oh, that was hard because at the time, jobs weren't very, very plentiful. But, you know, the sort of jobs that would keep you going, but they wouldn't really puts you over the top because I didn't have a college education or anything like that, usually. Hmm.
Ashley Turner: So would you say that college education back then was very important?
Keith Arnold Well, education, though, has been important to people. You know, like I said, my best friend, he went to college and he became very successful. He opened a business, but he had the knowledge to keep it together, which we didn't because we didn't have that education, that smarts. But we were really willing to try anything to make it successful, but it just didn't work.
Ashley Turner: Okay. So after your childhood, after, say, your your teen years, you had a baby. Mm hmm. You got married? Mm hmm. And then you had two more kids after you that married. Mm hmm. So how was that after you were married? I heard you say that it was difficult because you weren't married. So when you got married, was it better?
Keith Arnold Oh, yes. I hope because we were together, we could do things together and take care of kids together. Mm hmm. We don't have to go to find her house, see her, or I mean, to see me, stuff like that.
Ashley Turner: Okay, so having both parents in the same home made it easier to raise the kids.
Keith Arnold Yes.
Ashley Turner: Than. Than it would if it was just one parent in one home and the parent in another home.
Keith Arnold Right. Would have made a big difference. Mm hmm.
Ashley Turner: Okay. So. When did. Why did you migrate to Michigan? Why did you. When did that spark. And you hear that you want to migrate to.
Keith Arnold Well, I had a cousin who came from here from Michigan to Buffalo, and he asked me if I wanted to. You know, help him drive back to Michigan. I told him I would help him. And when I did, I kind of fell in love with the place. And job opportunities were very, very fluid. You know, you could get a job almost anywhere back in this in the early 60s and tell my family everything. And I applied for a job and I got it just like this. Matter of fact, I got two. So I just stayed, you know?
Ashley Turner: Okay. So I hear you say that you fell in love with Michigan.
Keith Arnold Mm hmm.
Ashley Turner: What do you mean by that?
Keith Arnold I mean, the city of Detroit was very booming and it was popular there. And, you know, they had other industries in the valley at the time, and it was just a bigger city than Buffalo. And, you know. Buffalo and Buffalo was not Detroit. At that time, it had like maybe a million and a half. I have a lot of people here. But soon faded away. But yeah, I liked it. I got a job at Ford Motor Company. I worked there for 43 years, and. I don't regret that.
Ashley Turner: Okay. So you said that you had a cousin that lived here. Mm hmm. He came to visit you in Buffalo. Mm hmm. And then asked you to help him drive back. Yeah. And right then is when you said that that's why you wanted to. To move to Michigan.
Keith Arnold Once I got back. Yeah.
Ashley Turner: Once you get back to New York.
Keith Arnold Once I got to Michigan.
Ashley Turner: Once you get back here helping him drive. Yeah. Okay. How did how did it go as far as your family in New York? Like your kids and you? Well.
Keith Arnold First it was good, and then it kind of went sour.
Ashley Turner: So did you leave them behind?
Keith Arnold Yes.
Ashley Turner: Okay. Can you tell me a little bit about that? After you you dropped them off here. You you filled out job applications while you were here? Mm hmm. And then you went back to New York after that?
Keith Arnold Yes.
Ashley Turner: Okay. Can you tell me a little bit about that? Like as far as your your transition from moving to from New York to here permanently?
Keith Arnold Well, after I filled out the application, I came back to Buffalo. Okay. I did. I got some offers. So I went back and filled in checked in two. And actually, I got hired. At this stage, because once I got hired, it was a very, very decent job. Good job. And. Yeah, I stayed with my cousin. The cousin that brought, you know, that wanted me to. He was an older person. Mm hmm. But I stayed with him for a while until I got on my feet, and I. You know, we moved out.
Ashley Turner: Okay. So your cousin was pretty stable.
Keith Arnold Oh, yeah.
Ashley Turner: He was living here so he could help you out. Yeah. Area.
Keith Arnold He worked for Kelsey Hayes.
Ashley Turner: Okay. How long did you stay with him before you get on your feet?
Keith Arnold Three, four months.
Ashley Turner: Okay. So the reason for you moving to Michigan is because of that one time visiting job. Are you in job opportunities? So that's how you kind of got turned on in Michigan. Before that, did you have any any thoughts of moving here at all? No, not at all.
Keith Arnold No. I had been here before when I was a child, but I never thought about living here.
Ashley Turner: Okay. So tell me a little bit about. Your your family and your your migration to Michigan. How did how did that go once you decided that this is where you want to be? How did that go over with the family and how did it turn out? What was the journey for that?
Keith Arnold I didn't turn out too good because we split up. And stayed in Buffalo. I stayed in Detroit. Didn't work out too well.
Ashley Turner: Why do you think it didn't work out too well?
Keith Arnold Well, being young and stupid, I would say to me.
Ashley Turner: You say you were being young and stupid.
Keith Arnold Yes.
Ashley Turner: Why would you say you were being young and stupid?
Keith Arnold Well, I was doing things I shouldn't have been doing.
Ashley Turner: Do you think that moving to Michigan was stupid?
Keith Arnold No. It was a great move.
Ashley Turner: Okay.
Keith Arnold Move. I don't think that was okay.
Ashley Turner: So you still to this day think that you made the right choice?
Keith Arnold Yes. Oh, yes.
Ashley Turner: Okay. Now, before you moved to Michigan, was there anywhere else that you considered moving to the U.S. or anywhere? No. No. So once you. So you went straight from Buffalo to Detroit and there was never anywhere else that you.
Keith Arnold Married in my mind? No.
Ashley Turner: Okay. Had your mind made up after that?
Keith Arnold No. Okay. And being an only child, I didn't have. Many options. My brothers and sisters living in different places. A lot of families living in different places would have to visit and get to, you know, meet people or run around or whatever.
Ashley Turner: So was Michigan the only place the only other place besides New York that you have family?
Keith Arnold Yes.
Ashley Turner: Okay.
Keith Arnold So the first thing that I knew, I might have family in the South, but I didn't know that.
Ashley Turner: Okay. All right. So so for me that you're born in the early 40s in Buffalo, New York, you had a great childhood. You know, your parents were loving growing up, your mom and your grandmother. And even though your mom and dad split up, he was still a part of your life. Mm hmm. Once you you got married, you had you got married and had children, and your cousin came and asked you to drive back to Michigan with him. Mm hmm. And you sat there, and you fell in love with Detroit City. Mm hmm. And you got a job, and you stay here. And you've been here ever since.
Keith Arnold Yes.
Ashley Turner: Okay. After. After your. Your moving to Michigan and you splitting with your wife. What happened after that? What was next thing of life And.
Keith Arnold Then a friend of somebody else fell in love with them and got married. Remarried.
Ashley Turner: Okay. So then you got a second wife? Mm hmm. Okay. So tell me a little bit about that. How did you guys meet?
Keith Arnold A friend of mine introduced us. And we took off from there. Hmm.
Ashley Turner: Okay. So this was. So she's from. She was from Michigan, too.
Keith Arnold She was from Alabama, But she lived in Michigan.
Ashley Turner: Okay.
Keith Arnold Oh, Alabama. Put it that way.
Ashley Turner: Okay, so you guys had a mutual friend? Mm hmm. Yeah. Okay. So what what happened after. After you met your second wife?
Keith Arnold Mm hmm. And we just did pretty good in their homes and then together raised another family.
Ashley Turner: So you have more children? Yeah. Okay. So how did that. How did that go for you? I know you. Were you guys married first this time? Yeah. Okay. So how did that go? I know before you were saying that it was a little difficult with your first child because you weren't married to your child's mother.
Keith Arnold They lived together.
Ashley Turner: And lived together. Yeah. How was it the second time around when you were living together?
Keith Arnold Oh, yeah. Different. I was really wonderful. Really?
Ashley Turner: Okay. Mm hmm. So how was it different as far as this time around? What would you say was different?
Keith Arnold Well, I had a decent job. We had a home around the knot of our own, but, you know, we rented a home. Very different things. This is like ordinary house and wife, housewife and husband work and taking care of family and stuff like that.
Ashley Turner: Okay. So the second time around, would you say it was different because you had a stable job, whereas before you didn't have a stable job. You were kind of through going from job to job.
Keith Arnold True.
Ashley Turner: Okay. And you guys had a home. You were all in one home this time around. Okay. So where are you? So where are your children? With your second wife? Were they all born in Michigan?
Keith Arnold Yes.
Ashley Turner: How many children did you guys have? I have five kids. Okay. So did you. Would you say that you liked parenthood?
Keith Arnold Yes. You.
Ashley Turner: All right. So why don't you tell me a little bit about your new line of work?
Keith Arnold Well, at first, when I first started, I was a metal finisher. That was my classification. At the time, I think making $2 and 2000 $0.68 an hour. At that time, it was in 1965, zero nine.
Ashley Turner: $2.65 Was good money back then.
Keith Arnold Yeah, $2.50.
Ashley Turner: $2.68 an hour.
Keith Arnold And I had a classification that I never even did, but that was because of my background in the automotive industry when I was in Buffalo working on cars. And then later on I got into skilled trades and I stayed in school since about 30, 30, 33 until I retired.
Ashley Turner: Okay. So when you moved from as you can, you got this job here at the motor company and you've been there ever since.
Keith Arnold Yes, I was.
Ashley Turner: Okay to.
Keith Arnold Have a time.
Ashley Turner: To retire.
Keith Arnold 2.08
Ashley Turner: Okay. So to $2.68 since I was I was. Was there more than minimum wage back here? I was way more than minimum wage.
Keith Arnold Oh, yes. That was a very good salary back then.
Ashley Turner: Do you remember what the minimum wage was back then?
Keith Arnold I don't remember, but I know it had to be probably less than a dollar.
Ashley Turner: Okay. So you guys were definitely living above the poverty line, would you say?
Keith Arnold Yeah. Really? Really Well. So that was considered home. Matter of fact, through the years I worked there, they paid very real well, especially skills training that made real good money.
Ashley Turner: And that was your, uh, your position after the. The metal.
Keith Arnold Finishing.
Ashley Turner: Metal Finishing? Mm hmm. Okay. And you've been in the skilled trades ever since you left the metal finishing.
Keith Arnold Right.
Ashley Turner: Okay. So was that a job that you say you enjoy working for all those years?
Keith Arnold I did. I very very much.
Ashley Turner: What did you like about it?
Keith Arnold It was challenging. It was. When I worked I worked on the midnight shift most of the time. And it was kind of weird because you could I hate to say it now, but I didn't have to sneak off at times of my own thing. And it was very challenging. And to get machines and stuff ready for morning runs and after once you got it ready you on your own. It was just speaking forman didn't bother you as long as it said I was ready to stop. And a whole. Lot of fun.
Ashley Turner: Okay. So how was I know? I heard you say you working at night. How was that? How did that go as far as raising your family? Did that conflict in any way?
Keith Arnold Not really cause my wife didn't work. It worked out pretty well. Afterwards I first and I did instead of love. And I didn't want to go to school.
Ashley Turner: She didn't like to work midnight at first.
Keith Arnold No, no at first I didn't
Ashley Turner: Why not?
Keith Arnold Since the late hours I was a night person. I like to sleep and you kind of have to get adjusted to it but once i got adjusted to it. I didn't want to do no other stuff.
Ashley Turner: okay, You end up loving your shift and you end up loving your job. Yeah. Would you say that that's what kept you here in Michigan?
Keith Arnold Probably had a wife and children.
Ashley Turner: Was there ever a point in time where you where you thought about moving back to New York?
Keith Arnold no.
Ashley Turner: So once you were here, you were here. Content. Mm hmm. So, so far. Just to recap everything that we talked about that we have, that you were born in in Buffalo, New York, in the early 40s. You. You had a lot of friends, but you had a lot of different friends of different races. Their race. Race was not an issue. The New York Times. Did you know of any times where it was an issue? I mean, as a kid. Did did you hear about other places where it was an issue?
Keith Arnold You mean other cities?
Ashley Turner: Yeah.
Keith Arnold Or I heard about other cities. Yeah, but we did have that problem. I didn't have that problem.
Ashley Turner: So you didn't know of it, but you just never had to do that. We had to do it. And so you had different friends and, you know, you were into sports activities growing up. You pretty much had a good childhood. You said. Your parents split when you were. When you were really young, you were six years old. But they were both still a part of your life, along with your grandmother and your grandfather that you mentioned. Once you marry when you were 21 and you had you had kids. Your cousin came to Michigan to I mean, your cousin came to New York to visit and ask you to help him drive back to Michigan. How long was the drive from New York to Michigan, do you know?
Keith Arnold Four and a half.
Ashley Turner: . So was was that long to you?
Keith Arnold No, that was young. 24.
Ashley Turner: So it was it was. Would you say it was like a road trip or.
Keith Arnold Yeah, that's a road trip.
Ashley Turner: Okay, so let's approach.
Keith Arnold It with the older person and I guess and realize that having them.
Ashley Turner: Okay. Well, because I heard you said it was fun. It was kind of fun to me.
Keith Arnold Yeah. Okay.
Ashley Turner: Okay. So once once you once you get back to Detroit, Michigan, with your cousin, you you want to stay, you like the city. How did you come to like the city? Well, we've sparked your attention to the city. And now you say that you like them. You like the people you like, that have a lot of people and things like that. But how did you even come about finding out about the city?
Keith Arnold They took me and my cousin took me around different places to see different people in the family. Everybody that I've met I've seen was trying to take me somewhere else, you know, to show me what the city was about. I loved it, too. And I had to go to a lot. Of places like. Football games and stadium and baseball games. We didn't have those things in Buffalo. Stadium we had a stadium with. The proteins and stuff like that. They had a hockey team, baseball, football team, basketball teams, everything. And they try to, you know, participate in and they didn't have those things in Buffalo. Very few. And that was fun.
Ashley Turner: So I didn't have any pro sports in Buffalo?.
Keith Arnold they didn't have professional semi-pro so my profession.
Ashley Turner: Okay. So. So your cousin showed you around when you came to visit? How long were you here when you visited? For the first time.
Keith Arnold For maybe a month or so. Okay.
Ashley Turner: So he asked you to drive him, help him drive back. And you end up staying for a month?
Keith Arnold Yeah. Okay.
Ashley Turner: And then once you got here, he introduced you to people. And then those people wanted to take you to places as well to show you around. Mm hmm. And after that, you just kind of. It was that when you made up your mind? Or was it when you got.
Keith Arnold When I got to have the job application. For those. That's what I feel like made I'm the man. Find out how much I will. Be making this stuff. Well, let me go here and.
Ashley Turner: All right, so then after you get a job, because when you met your second wife. And then you started having more kids in your life and you just you said it was better. Oh, yes. In a way that you were stable financially. You had a consistent job and you were making more than, you know, minimum wage. You're making pretty decent money. And you were able to live in one household with your kids, whereas before you were in a different household at first and it was a little difficult. So after, you know, after your kids. Can you tell me a little bit about your life after your kids, like how it was with them growing up? Was there anything that was a challenge for you as far as them growing up?
Keith Arnold I really put my finger here. I'm pretty good kids. They all went to. I finished high school. When they went to Cardiff.
Keith Arnold And then we're not traveling around. I never had. Any problem with them. They never were in jail or trouble or stuff like that, you know? They never ended getting. They were good kids. Well their not kids Now.
Ashley Turner: They're grown now. Yeah. Okay. And then as far as your line of work, you loved your job.
Keith Arnold Yes.
Ashley Turner: You said. You started off doing one thing and then you ended up kind of being promoted, would you say?
Keith Arnold Oh, yes.
Ashley Turner: So when you moved from the metal.
Keith Arnold That I and the.
Ashley Turner: Skill set to the.
Keith Arnold Skills trade.
Ashley Turner: Trades, did you get an increase? Like a pay?
Keith Arnold Oh, yes.
Ashley Turner: Okay. Yeah. Was it a significant increase?
Keith Arnold Yes, I think. Other than to an die in electricians, we were the highest paid. And then the classification that I had was a.whats it called. Well the fix to repair. I'm not a welder, but a welder fix to repair. We fix. Welding machines. You know, the ones that produce cars. Like there. Welding there's a different thing. Well, you know, Yes, we we we will fix machines. And they call. Well, to fix repair people. You know, we made more money than any of us have except electricity and sooner than that. So. And we did a lot of overtime if you wanted it. Mm hmm.
Ashley Turner: Okay. So is there anything else that you know that you that you wanted to elaborate on or anything else?
Keith Arnold Oh, I see. When I got 6 to 5, I got ill. I have. My kidneys went out. I had to get on dialysis. I been on dialysis ever since. And that's something I've been wanting to do. I but it kept me living, so I had to do with.
Ashley Turner: So how many years was that? I know you say you that only way you were 65. How many years have you been on it now?
Keith Arnold But about four. Close to four.
Ashley Turner: Almost four years. And how did that how how is that for you? And then you say something that you didn't like, but it could be living is terrible.
Keith Arnold Truthfully, I messed up. I think I have hypertensive hypertension casued the kidney failure. I really didn't get the hypertension under control like I should have. That's what made my kidneys go out.
Ashley Turner: Okay. So is this something that you say is a struggle for you at times?
Keith Arnold Because once you're on that machine and you get out of it, it takes a lot out. You can barely make it home. And then once I get 2 or 3 hours of rest, I feel completely different and better. And.
Ashley Turner: So I know you should. I asked you before I asked you if there was anything else that you would that you would like to talk about or elaborate on to you. Brought up dialysis. Would you say that that's something that's a major part of your life? I give him a big effect on you.
Keith Arnold Oh, yes. That's a big part of my life. Now, like I said, I can't do without it and I hate it, but something I have to do to survive.
Ashley Turner: Is there anything that it keeps you from doing physically?
Keith Arnold Lots of things. Lots of things. As the only one I know is one. Is, you know, which is you're right out of everything and every night take things from you that you normally do with your right hand. If they put the the graft or the other thing in there, then you can't use it because, you know, you live things up to five pounds. And it was hard to keep it free most of the time. Yes. Yes. Difficult. But I guess to become a person, two out of two, you know, what you got to do to keep going.
Ashley Turner: I heard you say earlier that you didn't do what you were supposed to do to keep your hypertension in control. What would you say you could have done differently?
Keith Arnold I went to my doctors and follow their advice, took my medication like I supposed to, and that I didn't do. And then I did go out. So that was my fault. I can't blame you if I have to do it all over again. I know I would change my ways and I would take that medicine, do the right thing, keep it down, casue it ain't no joke when you got no kidneys. it ain't no fun. No fun what so ever.
Ashley Turner: That's that. So that the whole dialysis and everything is definitely had an effect on your life recently.
Keith Arnold You're growing for the people around me. I don't have make it as happy so weak and draining and tired when I get off the machines. Ooh. I feel terrible. But like I said, a few hours of rest is sometime my body comes back together and I feel kind of decent.
Ashley Turner: Now you say if it wasn't for the people around you.
Keith Arnold Like my kids and my wife and grandkids.
Ashley Turner: Now, what do they do to to to help you?
Keith Arnold What are the different things? They take me to the hospital. Sometimes they used to come. What? It used to be around all the time when they could help with the cooking and cleaning up and stuff, who helped me in many, many, many different ways.
Ashley Turner: Because as you said, it's a little more difficult for you to do things with which.
Keith Arnold Are you have the room.
Ashley Turner: You can't lift anything over 5 pounds.
Keith Arnold with one arm.
Ashley Turner: With one arm. Okay. So I just just did a summary of, you know, your career. You're moving from Buffalo, New York, to migrating to Michigan and your new family. Would you say that the the summary was pretty much on point? Yeah. So which is just great. Okay. So I know you said your dialysis. Was there anything else that you would like to elaborate on before we wrap things up?
Keith Arnold I don't think I can think of anything.
Ashley Turner: Mm hmm. That's pretty much it. Okay. Well, thank you. And then you and. We're going to go ahead and wrap up now.
Keith Arnold Thank you. Thank you.
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Dublin Core
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Title
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Keith Arnold, February 22nd, 2012
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview, Keith Arnold tells his story of growing up in Buffalo, until he found a deep love for Detroit. He eventually made the journey to the city, where he started and raised a family.
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
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Detroit Historical Society
Language
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en-US
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Detroit Journeys by Marygrove College
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
Rights
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Detroit Historical Society
Language
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en-US
Creator
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Marygrove College
Oral History
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Narrator/Interviewee's Name
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Lenolia Gaddy
Brief Biography
A short biography of the Interviewee
Lenolia Gaddy was born in 1921. Having lived such an eventful life, she tells the stories of how her and her family have been in the city for over eighty years.
Interviewer's Name
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Sherrie McLendon
Interview Place
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Detroit, MI
Date
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3/06/2014
Interview Length
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1:16:57
Transcription
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Sherrie McLendon: Good afternoon.
Lenolia Gaddy: I'm good.
Sherrie McLendon: So today we're here to do our interview. Interview of the oral history on immigration to Detroit. And today I'm interviewing Lenolia Gaddy. And we've already discussed the informed consent. And I thought what the interview was about and you didn't give me your permission to interview you. So the name of the interviewee is. Interviewer is Sherrie McLendon. The name of the interviewee is the Lenolia Gaddy. Today is March 6th, 2014. The place is in the home of Lenolia Gaddy, which is located in Detroit, Michigan. And the purpose of this interview is to discuss your migration, Detroit to Detroit, and also to enhance my interviewing skills. Do I have your permission for this audio interview with Gary?
Lenolia Gaddy: Yes, you do.
Sherrie McLendon: Thank you. So first of all, I'd like to thank you for participating in my interview, and I would like to ask you, when and where were you born?
Lenolia Gaddy: Amory Mississippi Mm hmm. It's. A-M-O-R-Y.
Sherrie McLendon: Okay. When's your birthday? What year were you born in?.
Lenolia Gaddy: Born May 8th, 1921.
Sherrie McLendon: So we're both. You were born in Mississippi. Where are your parents from.
Lenolia Gaddy: For that now? Mm hmm. Yes. They both were born there. Mm hmm.
Sherrie McLendon: So you have this nickname of Nay nay? Yeah. Now, some people call you that. Or whether they are related to you or not, but everybody calls you nay, nay or Aunt nay. Nay. Where did that nickname come from?
Lenolia Gaddy: Well, it's a long story that comes from the beginning of my children. Mm hmm. When they were little. Okay. They was trying to call me mama. Mm hmm. And they would say it would go into Nay nay. Mm hmm.
Sherrie McLendon: Okay. So your children started their nickname from naming, and everybody. Picked up on.
Lenolia Gaddy: It. Picked it up.
Sherrie McLendon: Okay. So you were born in Amery, Mississippi, in 1921.
Lenolia Gaddy: Mm hmm.
Sherrie McLendon: And, you know, both your parents were born there? Yes. Do you know anything about your grandparents? Did they come from Mississippi as well?
Lenolia Gaddy: I don't know. They were both. I knew them. Mm hmm. Vaguely.
Sherrie McLendon: Okay. Your grandmother. Your grandfather? Mm hmm. Can you tell me anything about your grandmother?
Lenolia Gaddy: Repeat.
Sherrie McLendon: Can you tell me anything about your grandmother?
Lenolia Gaddy: Oh, yes. Oh, I have to. I had to. Grandmothers and two grandfather. Mm hmm. And my mother. My father's right. And I knew them all. Okay. And my mother's grandmother. My mother's mother. My grandmother. Right. And she took me as a pet. Mm hmm. Okay. And. We got low. Real good. Mm hmm. And I remember my father's mother. Mm hmm. She was, I don't know, little down south, but. Oh, okay. But she may not have been, but. Mm hmm. You know, we are so. So.
Sherrie McLendon: So when did you come to Detroit? Did you come as a child is going to be an adult.
Lenolia Gaddy: I wish I could remember the year. Okay. I was the teenager. Mhm. Okay. Because that was Ohio. Springfield, Ohio. Mhm. To live with my aunt.
Sherrie McLendon: Okay. Uh huh.
Lenolia Gaddy: And she was gonna take me and keep raise me own husband got sick. And went to the hospital. Mhm. And he never did come back. Oh okay. Um, and they end up in Ohio called Health System, which was here living in Detroit. Mhm. And her sister said come on over and bring No here to say come out, come out and live with me and ever since.
Sherrie McLendon: Oh okay. So how long were you in Ohio. Were you there long.
Lenolia Gaddy: Not a very long time. Mhm. I don't know. I would say less than a year.
Sherrie McLendon: Oh okay. Mhm. So you came from Mississippi to Ohio. Mhm. Right. Right.
Lenolia Gaddy: Right.
Sherrie McLendon: Okay. So you remember going back to your grandmother? Susie. Can you tell me anything about her or how was growing up during that time.
Lenolia Gaddy: Susie Mhm. Now I. I could tell more about her than the rest.
Sherrie McLendon: Oh, okay.
Lenolia Gaddy: Because she lived with when we was little. Mhm. She live with us. There's my mother's mother.
Sherrie McLendon: Right.
Lenolia Gaddy: And. She was the sweetest lady. Mhm. She was, she was, you know, she had a lot of trouble out of me when she got rid to call my hair cause I had long hair. Mhm. And attempted, you know he and he it. Okay. And she had to run me down when I lived. Now she had to run, run down to catch me to call my hair but she would take us in her. It was not part, it was the part of the house. Mhm. And the children, she would take us in at night and tell us. But. Oh stories. Very fairy tale. Okay. But, um. And we would just love it. But it was scarce, you know. Oh, we'd be afraid to go back home. Oh, wow. She really was nice now when she passed. Mhm. I was here. I didn't know. I didn't go back, you know.
Sherrie McLendon: Okay.
Lenolia Gaddy: But I knew about her passing.
Sherrie McLendon: How old were you then when you grown? Hmm? Were you grown when she passed?
Lenolia Gaddy: Oh, no.
Sherrie McLendon: Oh, you're still a teenager?
Lenolia Gaddy: No, I was still. Pursuing. When they when she passed. They told me about it. And I could have wept that. But I didn't. Stay with the aunt.
Sherrie McLendon: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Okay. So, Susie, can you need any information about Susie, I understand if she was mixed or biracial. Your grandmother, Susie, with her father. A white man?
Lenolia Gaddy: Yes. She. Her father. Was a Baptist in a way. Okay. Yeah, no doubt about it. Mm hmm. And he was Caucasian. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Sherrie McLendon: So do you know if she had any, or do you she mentioned anything about. Do you remember anything about any race relations or did she have any difficulties as far as prejudice or anything like that during that time?
Lenolia Gaddy: It was really going on. But there's been little children. Mm hmm. You know, we didn't get too much out of it, but now her husband. Mm hmm. Susie's Husband.
Sherrie McLendon: Okay.
Lenolia Gaddy: He was found dead on that road way out in the country. Mm hmm. And before that? No, they never did find out. You know what happened? They said rumors was going, but they never did find out what had happened. Mm hmm. And. Oh. I remember him. Good. I have a great plan to remember that now. My mother can't.
Sherrie McLendon: Oh, really?
Lenolia Gaddy: Really? Hmm.
Sherrie McLendon: Oh, they brought it back here.
Lenolia Gaddy: Hmm.
Sherrie McLendon: So, did all your family wind up back here eventually because you came with one of your aunts as a teenager? Right. But I know a lot of your siblings were here in Detroit. So did everybody.
Lenolia Gaddy: Nobody. But just my aunt. She was married and she was working and her husband was working at that time. He worked it Fords and she worked at Chryslers. Oh, she was one of the first Chrysler women. Oh, really? One of the group in a group. Okay. Mm hmm. And we came and just made ourselves at home. Mm hmm. And this went on in, and my aunt decided that I should go and get back in school. Mm hmm. And. So she took me to a night school in case we went against it. She went to night school with me. Okay. And she was taking, you know, place. Mm hmm. And we just enjoyed it. Okay. And. Neither one of us was working. Mm hmm. But we getting a loan. Oh, okay. And then when I get to be. Well, 17, I believe. Mm. I studied the work. My auntie got me a job. Okay. And I started the work and make it my own money and everything, and. Oh, my goodness. And, you know, my first love, it was in college at that time. They made me step in, out, in in her. In her fold, you know?
Sherrie McLendon: Okay.
Lenolia Gaddy: Your mother.
Sherrie McLendon: My grandmother.
Lenolia Gaddy: Your grandmother? Yeah. And. One year I sent her a coat. Mhm. And that coat was the talk of the town, like she was rich. Something. And believe it or not, it all went down. There was a clothing store down town it called asking. Mhm. And I went and put it in the layaway and it was a dollar down and a dollar. Okay. And I would enjoy skipping down the street cubby and the went down to pay that dollar we downtown in back. Mhm. And when that coat got to her it was nothing there. Oh she loved it. Mhm.
Sherrie McLendon: So where were you working at then.
Lenolia Gaddy: When she got it. It was close to where we live. Ladies love it was a reliable linen service. Okay. And now I will separateing countenance. Separate linen. Mhm. And. I worked there until I got married. Yeah.
Sherrie McLendon: Oh, okay. Oh, no one with that. You remember what year that was that you get married? Hmm. What year did you get married? Do you remember that?
Lenolia Gaddy: I got married in 19. I got license 19. What year was that? Oh, I know. 1940. 41. 41. Okay, go ahead. It was born that right after the. Mm hmm. And the year after that? Mm hmm. Okay. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Sherrie McLendon: So how many children did you have?
Lenolia Gaddy: Three. And Bobby. Norman. Jackie. Mm hmm. One boy and two girls.
Sherrie McLendon: And they're all here in Detroit as well?
Lenolia Gaddy: Yes. They were all born and raised here. And Bobby went to he went and he chose to go in service at a young age. Mm hmm. That was going and be. Okay. When he was young. I think he was about 20. Mm hmm. And he made a career. Mm hmm. And service. Yes.
Sherrie McLendon: So eventually, down through the years, all of your fam, just about all of your family, all your sisters and brothers.
Lenolia Gaddy: Including my mother and your mother.
Sherrie McLendon: Eventually, everybody winds up in Detroit.
Lenolia Gaddy: Is about all but one now, Dean that with my baby brother. Mm hmm. He didn't. He came alone. It's been here. Okay. But Dean. It. It's along story Then in college ministry. Mm hmm. And. When he came out, he had a scholarship forever. Okay. That was the main thing. That one thing that helped him there. Mm hmm. And when he got out, he just went up like a balloon, going from one step to another and all. High and high and high. Oh, I see. And he got to the place where they let him just take over, you know? And he didn't. I don't know. He didn't even desire to come, I guess. But he married then and he's passed away now, you know. And the kids, he had a wife and children and they still there? Mm hmm. Some of the children, they had some, as you know, out of a place.
Sherrie McLendon: Okay. Okay. So how did everyone else decide on Dean? Why they just came one by one to Detroit had everybody else wind up here?
Lenolia Gaddy: Oh, yes now your mother? Mm hmm. She was the first one came loving grandmother.
Sherrie McLendon: Yeah. Okay.
Lenolia Gaddy: And she came right after I got married at the end of the same year, rather. Mm hmm. And she came, and we was glad to see she lived. When we got married, she lived with me. Mm hmm. And. We would do things together and go and, you know, enjoy one another. Mm hmm. And the rest Now, after she came. The rest is fame and land. I guess one by one instead of coming into way over here. But they didn't have too much trouble getting work.
Sherrie McLendon: Okay.
Lenolia Gaddy: Yeah. It's those good old age days.
Sherrie McLendon: So at one point, Grandma, let me live with you. And I know Joyce and Bobby. They're really tight now. How are they as children?
Lenolia Gaddy: They just switched around. Go. Joyce Lee. I was the first gal and Bobby was my first doll. They both the boys, they. They were so tight together. Hmm. And I just thought maybe I said even when they grow up and they don't be so quiet, they probably walk, though, you know, looking at one anothers girlfriend, they was so tight. Leon Leary, he would take up a lot of time with them. Okay. And I remember every day. And he'd come and they'd be looking for him. He thought, what if he made an.
Sherrie McLendon: Opening.
Lenolia Gaddy: And they had to deal with it? But I was so afraid. But there's nothing to happen in your life, You know, if you live with me this way, you nanny. Uh huh. And they live the second hour from where we live.
Sherrie McLendon: Oh, okay.
Lenolia Gaddy: And she was always the cutest thing. I have a picture of her now. You wouldn't. I don't know. Get it together one day and give it to you.
Sherrie McLendon: Okay.
Lenolia Gaddy: Oh, she was so cute, girl. I know. Mhm. And she was always on the. I call it the days. Oh, she wouldn't, you know, if anything didn't go with her. Mhm. And Blair, her father called Muffin. Mhm. And they were so she was pretty well you know Mrs. Williams raised them mostly.
Sherrie McLendon: Right.
Lenolia Gaddy: But we was right close to it right there. Okay. And now. So. She came up. Yeah.
Sherrie McLendon: So. Was it I guess, was it common for, I guess, relatives to take the other relatives? Children only needed help then.
Lenolia Gaddy: Yes. And that's how I got here. Mm hmm. She needed some money. Mm hmm. And my aunt needed help.
Sherrie McLendon: Okay.
Lenolia Gaddy: And it was very common for one to go and live with the relatives. Hmm. Yeah. And it wasn't like giving the child away. Okay. I think it was more likely. And I hear the aunt I went to, they may have no children. Mm hmm. And? And Miss William, she needed help. Mm hmm. Your mother went there. Oh, very. And she was young when she went to live with you.
Sherrie McLendon: Right. Right. So now everybody is in Detroit. You all are grown. Everybody's here except for Dean, right? So you were the only relative leave or your only sibling left down here, But they're still other relative.
Lenolia Gaddy: All with one.
Sherrie McLendon: Other relative still there? Oh.
Lenolia Gaddy: I don't know anybody else. But we have a cousin Bailey. Mm hmm. And he still admits that he married. He's married. And he calls every so often. It's my mother's brother. Yeah. And he said, Man, you were the only one. But you always leave. Mm hmm. And. He's afraid of flying. Oh, you said he won't get out. Nobody's flying. But. He said he's elderly now. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Oh, yeah, him and Fannie Lou. But, you know, she, um. She was saying they were born in the same year in one month apart. Oh. So he's the same.
Sherrie McLendon: As he ever been here or he hasn't. Has he ever been here?
Lenolia Gaddy: Oh, yes.
Sherrie McLendon: He doesn't fly many times.
Lenolia Gaddy: He came when my mother paid. Oh, less than he was here.
Sherrie McLendon: And when did mama pass.
Lenolia Gaddy: She passed in 19 and 1998. July 4th.
Sherrie McLendon: And how old was she?
Lenolia Gaddy: And she was 100 years. Four months In two days. Wow. She was born in 1898. Open. She passed in 1998. Hmm. Okay.
Sherrie McLendon: So do you have any information about your father? You know, you know a lot about your mother's side.
Lenolia Gaddy: I know more about my mother's side because. But I didn't know my father's mother and his father. Right. And I remember them, but not much closeness. Okay. I remember she used to live away from where we live. There. Mm hmm. And she's the only one I know could make tea cakes. Hmm. Oh, she made it. And we would go to her house. Mm hmm. And she would have all the estate built. And we'd be so glad she made the best tea cakes. And nobody got the recipe. Mm hmm. And now. We have to take what we get. Mm hmm.
Sherrie McLendon: So you're known for your cooking. So maybe that's what you get from your mother.
Lenolia Gaddy: From my mother?
Sherrie McLendon: From your mother.
Lenolia Gaddy: My mother was a cook. She was a cook when I left. Really? Mm hmm. And she cooked at a boarding house. Oh, okay. And, Oh, they loved it. They loved to cook in it. She made the best dinner role of anybody. Mm hmm. And she would cook for the bowlers. Okay. When she worked there, she was one of the pastry cooks. Mm hmm. And I remember now, this was. That was really small. And go into the house where she cooked it. Mm hmm. It was another lady that was a pastry cook And. So the lady that they work for. Oh, she was real large. She had a job. Peanut butter. Eat and just eat. Now, that little spoon and that. And I thought that was so strange. Mm hmm. You know, just being kids and. Yeah.
Sherrie McLendon: So Mama Fannie was making these rolls because she was the cook.
Lenolia Gaddy: Oh, yes. And even after she got here, she continued to make make rolls with known for her good rolls in addition to cooking. And I ended up. Being a cook. Oh, okay. And we did the place 11 years and four months. Oh, okay. Where I work. Mm hmm. And. And when I left. That's when I came into this. Oh. Oh. To help with the seniors and seniors.
Sherrie McLendon: So mama Fannie was a cook you are a cook. Yeah. That's when you get, though, that, uh, the peach cobbler promptly. Everybody loves your peach cobbler
Lenolia Gaddy: And that's what made me known by my peach cobbler. Yeah, but I like Apple as my favorite, so I like Apple of its own. But I cook and cook most anything. When I went to interview for my cooking for my job. They ask me what do you what do you cook? what food do you cook. And I said, I cook at in that type of food. And I said, I cook soul food. Okay. At that time, they was calling it soul food. And she said, What's wrong with soul food? Mhm. And before I left that place, they were eating soul food and love. Oh, really? Oh, yeah, they love it. Soul food. So. Game or pass on down the line.
Sherrie McLendon: Mm hmm. Right. So when you worked at that, when you working there, you were married with the kids. Smaller? Mm hmm. When you were there, were you married? than working then? Did you work during the Lennon? Oh, yeah. Married. So did you do that after that?
Lenolia Gaddy: Oh, yeah. That after I was married mm hmm. Both my husband also went in service.
Sherrie McLendon: Oh, okay.
Lenolia Gaddy: Yeah. Now he was there. He wasn't. He didn't make a career. Mm hmm. But he was in there for a while, and. Then they built those houses temporarily. Houses you may have heard yelling for the service men wives and fmailies. Okay. And I was in one of those. Open. He adds with his little rant.
Sherrie McLendon: Where were you then? Were you still here on the road? Oh, okay.
Lenolia Gaddy: Our roads are near eight mile, way out there at that time Okay. We lived there for ten years. Mm hmm.
Sherrie McLendon: And that's probably where Bobby get that initiative to go onto the service, too. And that's probably why Bobby went to the service too. Uh huh. Because of that.
Lenolia Gaddy: I don't know what he really wanted to go. After he graduated from high school. He. He didn't know that he had a job. You know, he didn't want to. He invented it in a job working in a hospital. And he didn't like it. Mm hmm. And he just made his mind up. I guess, he wanted to go. And he went. He really loved it that he stayed on. All the way to the end.
Sherrie McLendon: Maybe that was in his blood.
Lenolia Gaddy: Probably. Mm hmm. Yes.
Sherrie McLendon: Have you been back to Mississippi? since leaving. Have you been back to Mississippi? Who you at all since leaving there? Have you ever gone back to visit?
Lenolia Gaddy: I went back, went up maybe a couple of times one time and was, you know, open when I was young. But. My dad, he was a schoolteacher. Okay. At the school that we went to. Mm hmm. Most of us went to open it. And it was right there, neighbor. Mm hmm. They had. It was little, you know, small place. But now they still. We really big now. Oh, thankful. Right. And. Some members like quite a few members. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Sherrie McLendon: I know once before. You say when you came here with your aunt, she was going to send you back to Mississippi and she asked you, did you want to go back to Mississippi or come to Detroit?
Lenolia Gaddy: Right. Right. When? Her husband passed. Mm hmm. They had made plans for me. She said her husband had said, hey, what's going on? They had planned on me, yet they was going to send me to school, too. And that meant that Wilberforce College was one of the big colleges they had in Springfield. Mm hmm. And they will. Oh, they was going to do so much. And, I don't know. I never seen them. Mm hmm. He passed. And that is change plans and all the plans around. Mm hmm. But he left her pretty well off. She had properties and rental properties for them. And she. The home she lived in? Mm hmm. And so she. When she decided to come here, she got a lawyer to take care of that business for her. Mm hmm. And all that was sold and everything opened.
Sherrie McLendon: So did she give you a choice to go back to Mississippi or to come to Detroit. And you chose Detroit.
Lenolia Gaddy: And they had to do like my husband did. They had to ask permission, you know, for me to come and stay for my parents. Mm hmm. And when I got ready to get married, my husband wrote a letter to my parents for information.
Sherrie McLendon: Okay.
Lenolia Gaddy: Well, he had no idea he got it. Hmm. So, yeah.
Sherrie McLendon: If the way your aunt had you, whenever you were, your plan was to come to Ohio. So you went to Ohio, right? Right. And he passed. Uh huh. And then I believe she gave you option to go back to Detroit or Mississippi. Yeah. And you said.
Lenolia Gaddy: Right, right, right.
Sherrie McLendon: I mean, you said Detroit. You want to go back to Detroit? Uh huh. And she and.
Lenolia Gaddy: She did not want to go back. I want to come home to Detroit. And I told you I chose to come with her.
Sherrie McLendon: So why did you choose Detroit over Mississippi? Uh.
Lenolia Gaddy: I don't know. I was like one of the children that liked to leave home. And I guess explore or whatever. So because when I was there, I was going, you know, need a place to stay and with realative. Mm hmm. Go on. So when they asked for me, I was glad. I guess Mm hmm. But it didn't, you know, like it too well. I did, like, down here. Oh, Didn't really like it too well. But. I told her. Yes, I'd rather come here with her. Mm hmm. And. I know that they were working, but I wasn't thinking about the building part, you know? Mm hmm. But they took care of me. Mm hmm. She'd go to valley clothes instead of bad. One cheap. Back to three pieces, and then the same thing.
Sherrie McLendon: Oh, okay.
Lenolia Gaddy: And she was very. You know, loose with her money. Oh, Get me stuff. Mm hmm. So. Okay. Mm hmm.
Sherrie McLendon: So when you all came to Detroit, what did she do? Did she work when you all came to stay with her sister?
Lenolia Gaddy: Not to work in a house wouldn't work.
Sherrie McLendon: Okay.
Lenolia Gaddy: And me and her would be. When we first got there. We'd go to school in line, you know, and we'd go to school at night. Through the day. We just make ourselves comfortable. Mm hmm. Content.
Sherrie McLendon: Right?
Lenolia Gaddy: Mm hmm. Okay.
Sherrie McLendon: So I know on one time we talked before about you and all of your siblings. Uh huh. And you outliving all your siblings. You all were born in Mississippi together, and you were the first one to come here. Then follow my grandma. I love you and everybody else. Mm hmm. So you're the third of the four? Oh.
Lenolia Gaddy: Children. Mm hmm.
Sherrie McLendon: They have their own. Mm hmm. So? And all your other siblings are gone. They all passed away.
Lenolia Gaddy: Oh, I see. Mm hmm. And they all passed away. Mm hmm. I'm always one thats left. Mm hmm.
Sherrie McLendon: So, I mean, what are your feelings towards that? Do you feel any type of way about that?
Lenolia Gaddy: Well, I didn't know that elderly life could be so happy. so enjoyable. When you get elderly. It seems like. Most people are just. Mm hmm. People don't know. I went to the grocery store. Kroger? Mm hmm. You know, something like she works okay. And the cashier may have just took a liking to me. Mm hmm. If she would have. If she found out my age in the life, they look like their mother. Mm hmm. And they just. Just freely give, I don't think, looking for it, you know? But it's as if when you get old, you get more stuff. Good. Yeah.
Sherrie McLendon: Okay.
Lenolia Gaddy: If you can get that, get what you want, you know? Not if you don't want too much, right? Mm hmm. So am I, like, elderly age? Mm hmm. I like getting up in the morning and get my breakfast and the one about doing what I need to do. Mm hmm. And if I want to do something, if I don't want to do it, you know, I don't have to do it. Right. I just sit down and. I enjoy it. Mm hmm. I really do. So.
Sherrie McLendon: Do you have any fond memories of your siblings when you were children or adults? Anything significant that stands out? Oh.
Lenolia Gaddy: I remember. Luvy was the oldest. Mm hmm. And when my parents would go away, she would be in charge. Mm hmm. And she had. Is she has us control? Yeah. And one day, me and my brother. Older brother. Mm hmm. We was gonna let her both roam and let us do things. And so we had evidently got together. But when she dealt us that day, we was ready for. Mm hmm. And we. We did. We took a vow. We took all this, you know? And it didn't seem to help. Mm hmm. You know, it didn't help. But okay, we got by that day. Mm hmm. Because it was two on one. Two against one. Hmm. Mm hmm. But she still was the boss my parents would always leave herin charge. Mm hmm. And she would always make us know that I'm in charge. Right. And we grew up. Together like that. But she ended up coming right to me. When? But when she got a chance. Mm hmm. And she would went to college school may have a schoolteacher that she went to school for a little while. I guess she felt she didn't like it.
Sherrie McLendon: Oh, okay.
Lenolia Gaddy: And she came right here. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. And. Yes, she. And she enjoyed it. Mm hmm. I don't know. I guess not. I liked it very well, but I was thinking maybe I was the only one in Mississippi. Mm hmm. I don't. I don't have a lot of memories of fond memories. Because old people were all the people with people, you know, things that younger people would hear.
Sherrie McLendon: Right.
Lenolia Gaddy: And it didn't go to good. Mm hmm. Yes.
Sherrie McLendon: So she felt she came down on this and followed you. But she came down here. When you first get married, like me or your 20s. Mm hmm. So that would make her probably, like, in her late 20s when she came here or me. It's when.
Lenolia Gaddy: She was. She was just at college. Mm hmm. In school? Yes. Well, long enough to find out if she did live. Mm hmm. And she took off and came. But that was in 19. Right after I got married. That I got married in 41. Mm hmm. 41. And she came right after that. And so I. They may have long to. Huh? To, you know, be by myself. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. I was glad, you know, that she was. I am now so glad we had our stay together. Mm hmm. Enjoyed one another.
Sherrie McLendon: So, do you remember anything that was going on in that era? Well, she came around 1941 when everybody would come into Detroit and remember what was going on at that time in the city or during that era.
Lenolia Gaddy: Enjoy it. Mm hmm. Oh. I don't. I remember we with. You know, my. Oh, we got in with the. With our age group. Mm hmm. Yeah. And we would go places, you know? Mm hmm. Movies and get together and have a lot of fun together. Mm hmm. There were little parties and different things. And, ah, but I couldn't get with it too much because I was married. Mm hmm. When? We would all go together sometime. Mm hmm. Have fun.
Sherrie McLendon: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. So then how was the, I guess, the atmosphere or what was going on socially then? Were there any, like, race issues? Do you remember anything?
Lenolia Gaddy: Oh, yes.
Sherrie McLendon: Riots or anything.
Lenolia Gaddy: They had the first race that. It had to be in the 40s. Mm hmm. Cause Bobby was the baby. Mm hmm. Leon With the baby? Mm hmm. And they got the news. This the. Somebody was that they allowed him to. Came from below and said I was dragged down the street with a loudspeaker telling everybody, hit the street. Hmm. Set up the white man. White people just threw a person in the river and. And another come up to me and people started in the street. That was the worst thing that happened. Oh, we was. I remember very well. We was in in our home and we went down and looked out. Mm hmm. And white colored was after the white. The blacks was after the white. Mm hmm. And the one white boy up right there closed the bell. It was bloody. And then. It was just something to see. Really? Mm hmm. And they said if you. I mean, if people that killed someone was just too light a color, they was for white. Oh. And all. But it it looked like it went on, so. And my aunt and I live with she called and she she said oh no better come over here. She said they not frightened like they had over here. Oh okay. And so my husband took me and took the kids and we all went over to my aunt's house. Mm hmm. And got over there, and they stood near close to commercial places, you know, clothing. Oh. And they went to break in all the glass windows and everything. And it was. It was something to see. And I remember Larry come and tell it. My husband said, man said, we better go up here. They broke glass into this girl who stole a store, had hams and stuff, you know, telling people call me. And and he said, May I say, let us in, man. We've had to go up here and get our babies the milk. He said, you know, milk is a man's name, but we better go and get the babies. The me A baby was a baby early on, wasn't they? Mm hmm. And that's when that first raised smell. Well, that was a race that night. Mm hmm. And it was exciting because you didn't know it would be in it. You know, get destroyed. Didn't have a mud ring. Mm hmm. And. All up and down the street in people's yards and everywhere. Mm hmm. I was glad over it when it was over. Then I went to bed. Oh, that's cool. Okay. No food stolen. Don't get ripped off. Mm hmm. And no food and nothing. People got what they wanted to, though. Mm hmm. But I was afraid for them to go up there again. You know, they said the girls are still on the corn. But it was just the one hams and stuff out the window telling people. Come here. Mm hmm. Well, that was one that I. They had here it is a memory, you know, Go a long way. Mm hmm. Right.
Sherrie McLendon: So that was in the early 40s.
Lenolia Gaddy: Uh huh. Mm hmm. The kids were still little to even remember. Bothered me the first two.
Sherrie McLendon: Okay. Mm hmm. So do you know what caused it? Yeah. I mean, you know why they took him to the lab and tried to.
Lenolia Gaddy: But they found out it was false. Mm hmm. Didn't know about it, though. Nobody in the room ever happened. But they found the people, and we heard that they had found the people that studied it, and they prosecuted. Mm hmm. But they. Sure, they had to kill it, too. Mm hmm.
Sherrie McLendon: So do they know why they started that rumor?
Lenolia Gaddy: They never did find out just who did it. But they wanted it. Well, somebody they wanted to make, you know. Mm hmm. But people said they wanted to steal in order to get, you know, things to change. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. But I never experienced too much racial. Mm hmm. Yeah. Okay. Not really. Not at school work. Mm hmm. And having. Very little.
Sherrie McLendon: If you have any experience or memory from any other prejudice or anything when you were little in Mississippi. Hmm. Do you have any memory of any prejudice or anything like that when you were little in Mississippi?
Lenolia Gaddy: No, I just. Remember my dad I was so scared. He went to take a lady home that was with us. Mm hmm. had been visiting with us, and now he went in after he took her home. No, on his way. taking her saw somebody. Oh. Oh, the way he told it, it was scary. Mm hmm. Standing on the side of the street. Mm hmm. On the side of the road. And when he came back, standing in the same place. Mm hmm. They looked like a human being. And it was. It was a scary story. And. And my father was. He was he wasnt to brave, you know? He was scared too, though. Mm hmm. He would tell that look like I could feel hair standing up on my. Oh, okay. It was really something. But I don't remember really too much fun we had and. I don't remember that. And the older people would talk about things happen, but they would keep it under but, you know, cover life. Mm hmm. Until you don't talk about that. I don't know about that. Mm hmm. So we'd never be in no trouble. No trouble? Mm hmm. You know. Well, we will have free to talk. about certain things.
Sherrie McLendon: So when the older people say don't. Don't talk about that. Did you all know what they were talking about? Uh huh.
Lenolia Gaddy: Yeah.
Sherrie McLendon: And what was that like?
Lenolia Gaddy: They be you know, some readers have written like. This man, we know he was in the service. Mm hmm. He got out of service and things like the whites wanted to beat him up or something. Mm hmm. And he was the type with no tape, nothing from nobody. Okay. And they got into it with this man. This man. God. And they said he fought for kill. Mm hmm. And he said he probably left a blessing dead, you know? Mm hmm. Oh, really? But they just clear clearly, since he been here, he came here. Oh, really? He had relatives demand it. Mm hmm. He had relatives here, and they came here. And somebody now has a picture that they went to Chicago and got a good lawyer. Mm hmm. The man they had. And he had got married. They went and got a good lawyer. Oh. Oh, they that lawyer Mm hmm. And the lawyer cleared him up, and he could go. He can. He could even went back if he had a warning to the mess clearing. So the man pays now Mm hmm. But he. He was clear, and he pays nothing. Go see. It was. No, it was a self-defense thing. Mm hmm. And that lawyer you got in it and worked it out oh, yeah. Yeah, it was Maybe his. The pan people only live a block from where we live.
Sherrie McLendon: So when he came out of the service, he was basically saying that he was harassed or whatever by the white people in or attacked, that he fought in self-defense right here, right in Mississippi. But when he finally over the fence.
Lenolia Gaddy: You will just hear them. You never would actually see a note. You would just hear him. And, you know, let's talk about. I knew not to say nothing. So I don't have no good memories from this film at all. Not too much. You know, just being with the family. And I remember my grandfather. Mm hmm. He was real sick. And I remember hearing him say, Do you think I'm getting better? I've got a little book about himself, and it's not my bed. Okay. And, yeah. But you go up you go. You get in bed. But I don't know if he passed that way from that sickness or later on.
Sherrie McLendon: Okay. So never really experienced my friend's death or anything firsthand. You all knew.
Lenolia Gaddy: We did one on one. It was there. It was.
Sherrie McLendon: The way.
Lenolia Gaddy: It was really going on. But we was way off school. You know, very young. I remember one that we were filming with the white people and. The kids, you know, we were little kids. And little is. And one of the kids said no to a white lady. Mm hmm. And I remember. Don't say no. Don't say no to me. You don't say no. You say, yes, ma'am. guess what Happened. Mm hmm. I remember that. And? And we. Yes, children. But we know. Mm hmm. What to do.
Sherrie McLendon: Okay.
Lenolia Gaddy: There's one to the left. The one in the school, you know? Mm hmm. It's like a lesson. In. You see it right there, he said. That people are all right if you just stay in your place. Mm hmm. You don't get it. Don't get across the line In a manner of speaking. Oh. But a. Lot of people, you know, stay in place. Mm hmm. Feel the spirit in army he was out the get out of the army when he got into it. And there he was, on his way, and he stopped. An old lady thousand told her what trouble she was in the tried to hit. She said, Son, you get out of here quick as you can. Hmm. They'll stop. Hmm. You get away from me. If they go. They kill you. They don't hate you. Stop. But I never really, really experienced too much. Post. If you people work for somebody, they knew what was going on and they would tell the children, you know, what to do and what to say and what not to get into. But we didn't get in trouble for long as I was say, I did get into no big trouble, but we could tell it was going on. Okay. We just went around.
Sherrie McLendon: So when you say you haven't experienced life, you didn't really experience it as a child, but you were aware of what was going on. Did you experience some here since you come to Detroit or anything like that or go?
Lenolia Gaddy: We had always heard from our people that live here that you was free. When you come here, you could say, Yeah, now. And yes, the man had said, if he hit you, you know what color not do we always do it? Everything was like that. And that's the way I. Well, had to believe in that. Everything was right. That is when we met the man. Mm hmm. Back in those days, nothing too much. No president goes up. The place that worked was a Jewish place. And they had a Jewish people would run in and. The people, black and white, would get together, you know, an old man and that loan pretty good together. And Julius, he was a Jew. A Jew. They were both okay and. And if I couldn't understand what you've been saying, if I didn't know you too. I guess they called me my name of different names and then me. Okay. And even the girls that I work with, I was the youngest one. Mm hmm. My auntie got me the job they had. She knew the place. But it.
Sherrie McLendon: Which place was this?
Lenolia Gaddy: Way I got the Linen that was here
Sherrie McLendon: Mm Hmm
Lenolia Gaddy: Okay. And I didn't experience no prejudice. Mm hmm. Not at all. It was black and white. And then we got along together. Mm hmm. I didn't be able to see no fights and nothing, you know. Okay. Did that grace right there and figure out. Hey, you.
Sherrie McLendon: So when you were in Mississippi, you didn't really experience anything but happy memories with your family. But other than that, you couldn't carry on anything. And that May is.
Lenolia Gaddy: Not do that. Hmm.
Sherrie McLendon: Anyway, Murray.
Lenolia Gaddy: I have still no idea either. Hmm. You know, nothing real.
Sherrie McLendon: And were you here for that? Do you remember the riot? There was around 1968. Yeah. Do you remember the riot? That was around 1968.
Lenolia Gaddy: Oh, yeah, I remember that. We was. We had moved in and lived in different places, you know, And we were seeing. The same church we had now.
Sherrie McLendon: Okay.
Lenolia Gaddy: Mm hmm. Oh, our old church. We would call it. Elder Peterson had been long gone. Okay. And he said he said these people were breaking up and stealing. And he said able to stand down to play ball. And they were born. And he said, look, like they don't know each other. Hmm. And now they came. I remember that day. That particular day. Mm hmm. Goes up. We were driving. I was driving and we usually come around through the drive, but they had a big curve there. Mm hmm. And when we went home, Elder Peterson said. Y'all go home rather than stay at the church. You got there and I ran over the curb. I don't know if I did it harm for the car or not, but we was getting home and all we saw. But we didn't get into no trouble. Mm hmm. We didn't see nobody going to fight and nothing to catch us. Mm hmm. And we went in the house and stayed there. Yeah, I remember that well, in 68.
Sherrie McLendon: What was that right about.
Lenolia Gaddy: Now that they said it wasn't really a race riot? Mm hmm. It was. Elder Peterson and the people they wanted to steal. Hmm. Somebody just wanted to steal what they wanted, you know? But I never really found out about the cause of it. Mm hmm. But there was a girl that went to. Mm hmm. But that was. Somebody found the dam rain all the way around the church. They said it would just break in the jewelry, pawn shops and throw stuff around. And it looked more like people wanted to steal to take stuff of set up with the way things was going. I never found out actually what involved that. Okay. But I have a feeling. Hmm.
Sherrie McLendon: So you've been here basically about, I'm going to guess about 80 years, somewhere close to there in Detroit.
Lenolia Gaddy: Very close. Mm hmm. 80 years. Yeah. Close to that. Oh. Hmm. That wasn't 80. Oh, yeah. Much more. More than 80 years. Hmm. Cause I was, like, 20 when I came here. Mm hmm. And it is, what? Uh, 14 to 14?
Sherrie McLendon: Yeah. It's 2014. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. If you came as a teenager from Mississippi to Ohio to Detroit. Correct. Then you, for all your family, eventually found.
Lenolia Gaddy: You out of.
Sherrie McLendon: Everything.
Lenolia Gaddy: And in my dad passed. I guess he would have to followed to.
Sherrie McLendon: You never came here.
Lenolia Gaddy: He had.
Sherrie McLendon: O. O. O.
Lenolia Gaddy: And I went back. I never went back there. Mm hmm. Cause I remember laying in the bed and I got worried. All of the children. Mm hmm. And they got caught. They jumped in the car, and then my brother was driving through curves, and they were coming round through the mountains and all. They made this phony face. Oh, okay. And when they all got there, they. We all got rounded back in. Somebody was telling them who they were. Daddy, this is Fred. this is Lola. And he was like. But he knew what was going on and he knew what was going on and and all the children. And this was pull up that strange, but. But all the children got round and told them all the names, you know, he draw the deep breath. Like relaxing. Hmm. And that was the last. Oh, it was the last step. And I said, that's it. In I made a remark and somebody thought that maybe I shouldn't have made it. I didn't make it out loud, but it is. All of it made leis. Oh, okay. I'll go. I was there when I was walking here, and. I just went, you know, took off all of a sudden because I was wet. We've not. We've had a week. Two weeks before then. Oh, bully phase. Mm hmm. And so we passed. And all of us then got together and buried him. Mm hmm. Now I got the lay out the next day. Mm hmm. Right away. It got there. Yeah. It looked like he was so relaxed. You know, the kids, you know.
Sherrie McLendon: All right.
Lenolia Gaddy: Girls are the most all of them was here then. But Dean too
Sherrie McLendon: Oh, okay.
Lenolia Gaddy: Mm hmm. So then he came. He didn't live a long way. Mm hmm. But he did live right. Right there close to him. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. They got the doctor. Doctor from Nelson. Mm hmm. That night and. We start making the arrangements, they start making the burial arrangements. And my mother, she will stay at home. They are. They own their own home. She wanted to stay. I don't know where she wanted to be and I'm not. Mhm. But. After that we found only is that if she want to come, you know we found out and my sister Fanny. Mhm. She drove from, she was in Florida, she drove from Florida to Mississippi with my mother and I live alone and she wanted to bring. Mhm. She knew she was coming. Mhm. And she got, she loved it like down there.
Sherrie McLendon: Oh okay.
Lenolia Gaddy: She joined my brother into the army and he bought her a new refrigerator. Now instead of, you know, new things in a house. Mhm. And she got rid of them all them. Mhm. And when she came she came home and they heard about it being so cold here. Mhm. She didn't know that but she finally she finally got around. Mhm. She liked it. Mhm.
Sherrie McLendon: So she kind of eventually came and followed everybody else after your father passed.
Lenolia Gaddy: Uh huh. Right. And. Then when she came here like they still have. Mhm. It was a church house. Two relatives from here. Mhm. And elder Elder Peterson was over you know. Mhm. And he. Had her let her live in the church house she wanted to be. You know she, it was another lady behind the fold. Mhm. Uh huh. Cause she came in the church in Mississippi. Mhm. You know, the church went there and started the church.
Sherrie McLendon: Who came and they serve Mama Fannie.
Lenolia Gaddy: Uh huh. Oh yeah. She was in church in Mississippi. The same church. Mhm. And she went and. She got used to it, you know, And she it's just a falsehood to falsely afair for all for years. Because everybody that we've worked in and go and all but they was retired I guess didn't go to work and.
Sherrie McLendon: So eventually everybody came from Mississippi and winded up some kind of way. We ended up in Detroit.
Lenolia Gaddy: Well, I ended up in Detroit and all of the it's not it's gone. It's still.
Sherrie McLendon: Right here, very in Detroit.
Lenolia Gaddy: And everybody.
Sherrie McLendon: Else is still here.
Lenolia Gaddy: Yea, yea, yea.
Sherrie McLendon: Yea. So you were born in 1921 and you say Mama Fannie was born in 1888.
Lenolia Gaddy: In 1898.
Sherrie McLendon: So Grandma Susie was probably born in probably like 1870 something or who? Grandma Susie. Oh but she on her.
Lenolia Gaddy: Right when I was doing it when I was little.
Sherrie McLendon: Oh, really?
Lenolia Gaddy: Yeah, she was all in. Hmm. When I was a little old lady that she wasn't old. Like I am in age.
Sherrie McLendon: Mm hmm. So did Grandma hardly ever tell you the stories or anything? You know, they like in slavery, in the history of slavery. Oh, man. It's just fantasy.
Lenolia Gaddy: Oh, my goodness. Something to scare you then. But she never talked about slavery. But my grandma Susie and her husband. Mm. I don't know. But my dad said grandmother. But I'm sure they would know something about slavery. They would know probably quite a bit about. Mhm. Oh. So. Let me see. We had a auntie that live right there too. And she was the head Melissa. Mhm. She was a bit over 100. Mhm. She was over a hundred year old and I know. Mhm. I know that she could tell you all of that but it. Mhm. Healthy by her being a hundred back then. Right. It wasn't too far from it. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. But. It was. Oh I know. Mhm. And discrimination was going on too. Mhm. But we didn't get hung up in the burden of it and put it. I don't know some of our people ancestors may have. Mhm. But. This generation did.
Sherrie McLendon: Mhm. So do you think that might have something to do with why everybody came here. What was going on down there. Mhm. Do they. What was going on down there. Might have had something to do with why your family ended up here.
Lenolia Gaddy: Well it might have something to do with the rest though. That in luck, I mean like I really wanted to get, get away from home. Mhm. Yeah. And I'd like my mother to give proof of practice law and let me go first. Mhm. Go back home and see her face. Oh, okay. I know, but I like it in a way too. Mhm. Because when I got the chance to come I was really. Mhm. Ready to come. It may have had something to do with the race. Mhm. But I, I've heard them say that you couldn't get nowhere. Oh yeah. You know you could work out your life, you wouldn't get nowhere. Okay. Good. And prospered. Mhm. Progress. Okay. I've heard that. Say it the most. The older people. Yeah.
Sherrie McLendon: Well, it sounds like you have a long life here.
Lenolia Gaddy: Oh, yeah. Yes, indeed.
Sherrie McLendon: And get a lot done and work in various places.
Lenolia Gaddy: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah.
Sherrie McLendon: You know, linen place and the cooking place. Oh, and you wind up being great at the cooking.
Lenolia Gaddy: Yeah.
Sherrie McLendon: I think everybody knows that. Should I put in an accent?
Lenolia Gaddy: And this must be a little gift, cause I didn't go to school. Oh, yeah? When I was going to guess. Mm hmm. Night school. I did take a cooking class. Mm hmm. I had, but that didn't hit me. But you know what? Just like nothing. It was the basics of giving us the basics in cooking and how to prepare your food. Mm hmm. I remember that. Let me let you go. Made pork chop. Mm hmm. You would season them on both sides. Like, puts out on one side and sold on that. And I would just. You, you know, think you put salt on one side. Oh, okay. But they gave with the basics of mint glaze that they have. I got to cut a post. Now. When I stop. When I come from school. Mm hmm. And my teacher sent me a beautiful cut. Mm hmm. But her, you know, he wished I could continue had it. Continue. Oh, finish it. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. But. Life has been good. Oh, and all the way. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. You know, that goes along with it, but. Right. Right. Is that outdo it? Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Okay. Yes.
Sherrie McLendon: Well, again Ms. Lenolia aunt nah nah Gaddy Uh huh. I would like that. Again, thank you for the opportunity to interview you. And I'd like to thank you for your time. Oh, and I really appreciate it.
Lenolia Gaddy: You are so welcome. I'm glad Jackie was so enthused. She was so glad that she said. Now, about that. Oh. Oh. Mm hmm. Ellen is running out the mouth.
Sherrie McLendon: Mm hmm. That's funny.
Lenolia Gaddy: Yeah. She was so happy. She said. And I'll be retiring pretty soon, and she'd say, I'll come in and give you a hand.
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Dublin Core
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Title
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Lenolia Gaddy, March 6th, 2014
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview, Lenolia Gaddy recalls how her and almost her entire family found themselves living in Detroit.
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
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Detroit Historical Society
Language
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en-US
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Detroit Journeys by Marygrove College
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
Rights
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Detroit Historical Society
Language
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en-US
Creator
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Marygrove College
Oral History
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Narrator/Interviewee's Name
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Violet Douglas
Brief Biography
A short biography of the Interviewee
Violet Douglas was originally from Mecca, Indiana and eventually moved to Detroit with her husband. In addition to moving around different areas in Michigan, Douglas went on to have children and hold various roles in her work field.
Interviewer's Name
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Lisa Funk
Interview Place
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Detroit, MI
Date
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3/03/2014
Interview Length
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55:45
Transcription
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Lisa Funk: Interviewer Lisa Funk. The interviewee is Violet Douglas. Today is March 3rd, 2014. The interview is taking place in the home of Mrs. Violet Douglas in Taylor, Michigan. And the purpose of this interview is to record the oral history of Mrs. Douglass. Grandma, do I have your permission to record this interview?
Violet Douglas: Yes, you do.
Lisa Funk: Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much. And I want to thank you at the beginning for giving me the opportunity to interview you. Okay. So where were your parents from?
Violet Douglas: Indiana.
Lisa Funk: Okay. And when when and where were you born?
Violet Douglas: I was born in Indiana.
Lisa Funk: What part of Indiana?
Violet Douglas: The central part.
Lisa Funk: Central part of Indiana. What year?
Violet Douglas: 1980.
Lisa Funk: Okay. And where did you grow up? In Indiana.
Violet Douglas: In Mecca.
Lisa Funk: In Mecca, as in this is Mecca in the central part of Indiana?
Violet Douglas: Oh, yeah.
Lisa Funk: Is it a big town or is it a city?
Violet Douglas: Small town.
Lisa Funk: A small town. Okay. What was your childhood like?
Violet Douglas: Good and bad. Oh. Starting out, it wasn't too good. But I overlooked all that. I was too young to know what was going on. Mm hmm. And I grew up there, so I guess it wasn't all that bad. All right. Outgrew it.
Lisa Funk: Yeah. When you say was good and bad, what were some of the good things And some of the bad things, maybe.
Violet Douglas: Well, some of the bad things. I was blind when I was little.
Lisa Funk: Mm hmm.
Violet Douglas: Oh, well, maybe until the middle of seven and eight years old. But then the most I had a wonderful doctor because he didn't leave scars on me. And I grew up to see. All these years.
Lisa Funk: Yeah. Mm hmm. And so he said. Were you born.
Violet Douglas: Blind? No. I had poisoned teeth for baby teeth.
Lisa Funk: Okay. And that caused. That caused you to go blind during your childhood?
Violet Douglas: Yeah.
Lisa Funk: Early childhood?
Violet Douglas: Yes, it.
Lisa Funk: Did. Mm hmm. And so what? What were some other things about your childhood? Well.
Violet Douglas: I had three brothers that lived in the same house. Mm hmm. And three sisters. Okay. And we got along fine. We had lots of fun.
Lisa Funk: Yeah.
Violet Douglas: And my brothers treated us like we were would melt if he dropped us or something, you know? Mm hmm. We never fought, never quarreled or never argued. Never said bad words.
Lisa Funk: Yeah.
Violet Douglas: I never in my life lived in that house and heard one bad word. Mm hmm. From my brothers. Sisters or my parents mm hmm.
Lisa Funk: Did your brothers and sisters live in the house at all at the same time?
Violet Douglas: Yes.
Lisa Funk: You did? Yes. You all grew up in the same house?
Violet Douglas: Yes.
Lisa Funk: With. With. With your mom and dad?
Violet Douglas: Yeah. Mm hmm.
Lisa Funk: And that was in Mecca?
Violet Douglas: Yes.
Lisa Funk: Okay. Did. Did you go to school in Mecca?
Violet Douglas: Oh, yeah. Mm hmm.
Lisa Funk: And what was that like?
Violet Douglas: Oh, it's great.
Lisa Funk: Yeah.
Violet Douglas: I mean, my brothers had all quit school and tried to get work, you know? Was farmers something about corner wheat or something or. I don't know what they did. I was too little. But anyway, yo, one by one, they left the roost, you know?
Lisa Funk: Yeah.
Violet Douglas: And my older sister, your oldest one in the family, she was married. Mm hmm. Already? I don't even remember her when she wasn't in the house, you know? Yeah. I couldn't recall how she looked like or anything.
Lisa Funk: Mm hmm. Okay. And.
Violet Douglas: But then we got along real well. And if things seem to be okay, you know, we had a roof over our heads and we had plenty to eat. And, you know, that's about all you could expect back then.
Lisa Funk: Right. Did you said a minute ago that you were blind and and then you started school and you eventually regained your sight? Yeah. And you were about 7 or 8 years old when you regained your sight.
Violet Douglas: Something like that. Yeah. So, yeah, I think I was in between 7 and 8. I think I started back to school sometime when I was eight because I was such a little thing and I didn't know what to do with myself. When I could see something, I didn't know what it was.
Lisa Funk: What was that like seeing after not seeing for so many years? Well, I.
Violet Douglas: Tried to do everything that I. I tried to fly like a bird, you know, cause they laughed at me while I laughed with them. I didn't.
Lisa Funk: Know. Yeah.
Violet Douglas: You know, And we went to Apple Tree to fix some apples. And I had somebody had give me some things in a little purse. And I had a compact with powder. Mm hmm. And my sister next to me, she was 2 or 3 years younger. She ran up and said, Let me see. And not knowing any better, I blew the powder in the face. And of course, I laughed, you know, And I thought that was so funny. I just gave her the contact.
Lisa Funk: Did you not know what the compact was?
Violet Douglas: No, I didn't know what it was. I didn't know the powder would fly or anything, you know, go in your face.
Lisa Funk: Okay.
Violet Douglas: And they laughed it off.
Lisa Funk: And how long did you how long did you live in Mecca, Indiana?
Violet Douglas: Well, I lived there until I was 19 and left to I didn't know, you know, what was going on, but I had. Gotten married. I didn't tell my mom, you know, her and I weren't too close, you know. So I will tell you this little secret, okay? I got married in an afternoon and we went to a little hotel thing there, and we danced until 7 or 8:00 at night. Mm hmm. And I went to my own mom's house and crawled in bed with her.
Lisa Funk: And your wedding night is on.
Violet Douglas: My wedding night? Yeah. I don't tell what to everybody, but I did.
Lisa Funk: Did. Did you just say that your mom didn't know you were getting married?
Violet Douglas: Oh, she didn't. I didn't either.
Lisa Funk: Can you tell me more about that?
Violet Douglas: I don't know what happened. I mean, nobody drank anything, you know? I didn't even know what beer was.
Lisa Funk: Yeah.
Violet Douglas: And some things were. Words were usable. Somebody said a saloon. I said I don't know what that is. Mm hmm. I didn't know what a saloon was. Mm hmm.
Lisa Funk: Is that where you got married?
Violet Douglas: Well, we got married seven miles from Mecca in a little town called Rockville.
Lisa Funk: Okay.
Violet Douglas: And. Yeah. I guess I'll never, ever forget that.
Lisa Funk: Were you married in a church?
Violet Douglas: No Well, we married by the see. I can't remember.
Lisa Funk: That's okay. Well, do you remember who was with you when you got married? Besides you and Grandpa?
Violet Douglas: George and Maureen.
Lisa Funk: And who was George and Maureen?
Violet Douglas: Well, they followed us. They got married the 23rd. After we got married on the fourth.
Lisa Funk: They got married in the same month?
Violet Douglas: Yeah.
Lisa Funk: And who is George and Maureen?
Violet Douglas: Oh, George was my husband's twin brother. Oh, that made her my sister in law.
Lisa Funk: Oh, okay. And so they got married the same month In the same year? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And so you said earlier you were 19. Yeah. When? That. When you got married?
Violet Douglas: Yeah.
Lisa Funk: And then you. But you said you. You went and spent the night with your mom. I did. When did you tell her you got married?
Violet Douglas: I don't remember if I woke her up since she worked hard and she was always tired, so I don't think I woke her up. I don't remember.
Lisa Funk: Don't you?
Violet Douglas: Okay. I don't think I wanted to remember, you know? Okay.
Lisa Funk: Yeah. Yeah. So how long how long did you stay in Mecca after you got married?
Violet Douglas: Oh, gosh, I don't know. Oh, not long because he couldn't find work.
Lisa Funk: Okay.
Violet Douglas: You know, there was work there for. For farmers once and a while, but they didn't pay anything.
Lisa Funk: You know.
Violet Douglas: You can raise a family on them.
Lisa Funk: Yeah.
Violet Douglas: So that's how he his older brother came in there and wanted to go to New York and work. So that's where we did go to New York. But we didn't stay there a week or two because they couldn't find work in New York either.
Lisa Funk: So, okay, so.
Violet Douglas: We jumped in the car here and we come up here to Detroit.
Lisa Funk: Okay. So when you when you left Mecca, you didn't directly come to Detroit. You went to New York first. Yeah. And that was for the purpose for grandpa to look for work.
Violet Douglas: Yeah.
Lisa Funk: But there wasn't any work to be on the road.
Violet Douglas: Couldn't find anything. And New York's pretty good size. Yeah. You know, you just couldn't walk in and say, if you have a job, you know, you had to wait and wait and wait and wait. You know, your money don't last that long by then.
Lisa Funk: Yeah.
Violet Douglas: So we came up here and they didn't have a problem getting work here. They'd done a few things. He worked on the roof. Buildings.
Lisa Funk: Mm hmm.
Violet Douglas: And made a little money. And they put out a wanted sign for Chryslers. And he went and got a job there, and. I guess close to 40 damn years.
Lisa Funk: Oh, okay. Okay. Also, so you. We left New York and then you relocated and ended up in Detroit. And you said that he worked, like, doing roofing for a little while. Is that. Yeah.
Violet Douglas: Well, yeah.
Lisa Funk: Okay.
Violet Douglas: Doing all jobs. You know, just to get money to have all this together until he did get a job and he finally got into Kroger's. Kroger's and we got Chryslers and worked there for a long time. Mm hmm. In fact, he retired from there.
Lisa Funk: Okay. And do you remember where you first lived when you came to Detroit? Did you live in a house?
Violet Douglas: No. Well, an apartment after another. Because they were all filled with roaches.
Lisa Funk: They were? Yeah. Okay.
Violet Douglas: Somebody who was like older people.
Lisa Funk: Couples. Mm hmm.
Violet Douglas: We lived with one couple. Even with the roaches we didn't want to live in because they were so old and they loved us. I had my first baby. Mm hmm. And the woman, she was so nice and saucy. And they treated all their mothers with, like, kids.
Lisa Funk: Mm hmm.
Violet Douglas: And the baby they just love. Done with the baby. She'd call me upstairs and say, Bring my baby down here. I want to sing high opera.
Lisa Funk: So you said that when? So when you moved. When you got to Detroit. And you're talking about the older couple in the apartment building where you lived, You said they called you and grampa the kids. How old do you think you were?
Violet Douglas: I didn't even think about it, but I just felt like a kid.
Lisa Funk: You felt like it? Yeah. Do you remember how old you were? About how old were that?
Violet Douglas: Well, I couldn't have been very old, let's say. I got married in 35. Well, you. I guess I was almost 21. Okay. Mm hmm. And that would be two years. I think was 137.
Lisa Funk: Oh, okay. And then that's when Uncle Don was born. Your first child? Yeah. Mm hmm. And how many children did you have?
Violet Douglas: Four.
Lisa Funk: And were they all born when you lived in Detroit?
Violet Douglas: Oh, yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. Don was born in Indiana. The other three were born in Detroit In Detroit.
Lisa Funk: Okay. Okay. And when your kids were little and you were living in Detroit, did you work?
Violet Douglas: Not until the little one was five years old.
Lisa Funk: Mm hmm.
Violet Douglas: And my dad. Mom came to live with us for a little while because they were going to move back to Indiana.
Lisa Funk: Mm hmm.
Violet Douglas: And. That's when I started looking for work. So I went to all the stores and, you know, I enjoy that because you meet a lot of people.
Lisa Funk: Do you. Remember. The name of it? Of one of the dime stores?
Violet Douglas: Christy Moore.
Lisa Funk: Oh, yeah.
Violet Douglas: Yeah.
Lisa Funk: Yeah. The dime store. You don't hear that very well.
Violet Douglas: No, I don't think there is any.
Lisa Funk: I'm not sure. Mm hmm. But you enjoyed working at the dime store?
Violet Douglas: Oh, yeah. You see so many different kinds of people. And it was nice.
Lisa Funk: Mhm.
Violet Douglas: You know.
Lisa Funk: Do you recall where the dime stores were?
Violet Douglas: Well, I know they were on Woodward Avenue. Mm hmm. But I don't know the off streets of any of them. No one ever paid any attention. You know, I was too busy.
Lisa Funk: Can you tell me a little bit about what maybe Woodward Avenue looked like then?
Violet Douglas: Well, it was busy, I can tell you that.
Lisa Funk: Mm hmm.
Violet Douglas: And it was.
Unidentified Yeah, well. Well.
Violet Douglas: I don't know. There was a big girl, Cunningham drugstore. Just below the dime stores. And that was nice. But they moved out. Never heard of Cunningham store after that. I don't know what happened, but. And I don't know any other. Or they had a lot of big clothing stores. Hudson's, for one, is for another one. Oh, we used to go to all of them, you know, just walk through if we didn't buy anything. But it was a busy, busy place. Crowd Always crowded. And on the eve of every holiday, they always had sales.
Lisa Funk: So was that something that you did when when you lived there and you worked in that area and you had little kids with you up and down.
Violet Douglas: And away.
Lisa Funk: Window shopping, mostly department stores.
Violet Douglas: All the sales. Sometimes you have a good day.
Lisa Funk: You know? Mm hmm.
Violet Douglas: Or if you wait until after 5:00 at night, you know, you can get a lot of stuff on sale. Hmm. And we did that a lot.
Lisa Funk: How did you get around downtown when you lived there?
Violet Douglas: Well, we streetcar mostly, you know, to town. And there's no reverse. No, no. I don't know if they had busses. I don't remember seeing the bus.
Lisa Funk: Okay.
Violet Douglas: So I probably had them, but I don't know.
Lisa Funk: When you say that you rode a streetcar, what do you mean? Was there places that it stopped?
Violet Douglas: Oh, yeah. And you could get off and go from one street to another.
Lisa Funk: Mm hmm. You know, And that took you all over downtown or any place that you needed to. Hmm. Is that the transportation that you used to get back and forth from work?
Violet Douglas: Oh, yeah.
Lisa Funk: Okay. And did you always work in the dime stores, or did you have other jobs?
Violet Douglas: No. Well, I worked in one, and then I. I don't know. I got tired of it or something, and. Sometimes I was kind of foolish and I didn't like somebody and I didn't want to be bothered with them, so I'd go to them. What was your work?
Lisa Funk: Okay, well, I know a.
Violet Douglas: Lot of people down there after I worked hard and worked hard day in and day in a time.
Lisa Funk: Off, you know.
Violet Douglas: And I was very pleasant to people. And other people in the store would come over to my apartment, my department and talk to me, you know. So I know I was doing okay.
Lisa Funk: Yeah.
Violet Douglas: But I got. When I quit, I got this other job. Now, see, I don't know if that was. Between. The Christian. Ward. And then. The airplane place the. I don't know if that was. Yeah, that was before my job in. Where I worked.
Lisa Funk: In the paper factory? Yeah.
Violet Douglas: I drew binder. Yeah, that was in between.
Lisa Funk: Okay. Well, can. Can we talk a little bit about when you worked in the airplane factory?
Violet Douglas: Oh, yeah.
Lisa Funk: Can you tell me about that?
Violet Douglas: Well, you know, my sister in law and I worked in there one third hurry, and. And they said they'd like to have a couple of small women to be work in the small parts if they need me. And they didn't need them. I went to a lot of places and I could just barely get into, you know. And so, oh, I don't want to work on airplanes. And I liked it. I enjoyed it. Except I couldn't get near people because I was always burning up. And they'd all if they touched me, they'd send me to the oh, they call aid first aid, first aid people. And they'd say, Well, I don't think you. You're not sick you have hurt any place here and there and here and there said no hurt. And I'm all right and I want to go back to work. Well, I've decided now, after you've been here about four times, that you don't you're not sick. You carry a degree of fever.
Lisa Funk: Mm hmm. So that was your nature. So what they were saying was maybe that was your normal temperature. Was that something that they looked at? They didn't want people there who were sick. Is that why they were always worried about.
Violet Douglas: I don't know. But it wasn't me. I didn't feel bad or anything. You know, I work so in my shift, you know, and every day.
Lisa Funk: Yeah.
Violet Douglas: I was thinking. It's for home.
Lisa Funk: So, Grandma, when you say you worked in the airplane factory, was that. That was during World War Two. Yeah. Is that why you worked in the airplane?
Violet Douglas: Oh, yeah.
Lisa Funk: Can you tell me some more about what you did as a job there?
Violet Douglas: Well. Well, I don't know what they call them, but you had to put little, little screws in little tiny holes in a little tiny bit like a box, but it'd be real narrow. I could barely get my two fingers in there to tighten them, you know? But I did the best I could. And after they tested everything.
Lisa Funk: You know.
Violet Douglas: It had to be special. And I knew I had to do it right. So I did.
Lisa Funk: Were the airplanes you were helping to build? Were they used for the war?
Violet Douglas: Oh, yeah.
Lisa Funk: Okay.
Violet Douglas: They were they were just coming out with the B two. They had to be in a number 12 or B two. Mm hmm. I can't remember, sir.
Lisa Funk: That's okay. That's okay.
Violet Douglas: Yeah, I had a I had a B and a number. I can't remember the number. But we worked on smaller planes, too.
Lisa Funk: Mm hmm.
Violet Douglas: But usually it was the big planes that were just coming in to be hauled in. Oh, my God. I went to the first day, Monday, and I got lost. Mm hmm. And I went through this big, long hallway. It seemed like I walked 25 miles. You know, there was nothing there but planes on each side.
Lisa Funk: Yeah.
Violet Douglas: And there I am, you know.
Lisa Funk: All right.
Violet Douglas: Believe me, I didn't feel good.
Lisa Funk: No.
Violet Douglas: I thought I'd never get to the first day. Mm hmm. I said we're on my own. Or your first day. There is a door. You can go home if you want to.
Lisa Funk: So was it. So how did you feel about working there at the beginning?
Violet Douglas: Well, I liked it. You know, I enjoyed working. And the money was really good. But I didn't want the war to go on, so I told them how I felt.
Lisa Funk: Yeah.
Violet Douglas: I said the same thing that I'm saying to you. Mm hmm. You know, I like the money. I like the work, But I don't want the boys to die by the dozen every day.
Lisa Funk: Mm hmm.
Violet Douglas: I can't do anything about it.
Lisa Funk: Yeah.
Violet Douglas: You know. So. But I worked for quite a while.
Lisa Funk: Well, do you remember what Grandpa was doing when you were working at the airplane factory?
Violet Douglas: He worked. Something moves in her. Oh. He worked no I don't know. I might get this wrong.
Lisa Funk: That's okay. you can take your time.
Violet Douglas: I'm trying to think. When he went to or he went to work at Chrysler's in. She was born in July. He went to war between July and August. Causes insurance. Didn't go until after she was born.
Lisa Funk: Okay. So he was he was working at Chrysler. And you were working at the airplane factory during World War Two?
Violet Douglas: Yeah.
Lisa Funk: And who was taking care of the babies?
Violet Douglas: Well, frankly, the youngest and my dad. Mama, remember I told you that you had come to live with me until it was all.
Lisa Funk: Okay. Thank you for telling me that. I wasn't sure when. Oh, when?
Violet Douglas: Grandpa and Bailey? Yeah.
Lisa Funk: Your dad and mom came to stay with you, and so did they help you with. With your. With your youngest? With the baby? Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Violet Douglas: Well, Frank was five years old when I went to work, so he wasn't really a small baby, you know, He was. He could wash his face and hands and put on his clothes, you know?
Lisa Funk: Mm hmm. And so you. So you said that after you moved to Detroit, then you had several jobs at the beginning because you worked at the dime store.
Violet Douglas: yeah.
Lisa Funk: Then you worked in the factory. And that's. That sounds like. All right. Now it sounds like. But am I correct? And was that was during the beginning of the Depression or the end of the Depression In the beginning of the war?
Violet Douglas: Yeah, that's what I was in beginning.
Lisa Funk: Okay. So during the Depression, you didn't work?
Violet Douglas: No, I didn't.
Lisa Funk: Mm hmm. And so what was that? Was there anything you can remember about living through the Depression?
Violet Douglas: Well, not much, because I was. We didn't have very good work. You know, it had been just kind of. My husband did work, jump from job to job in order to keep her family. Yeah, of course I didn't. I only had one kid then, so it wasn't that bad. But you had to fight for what you wanted. Mm hmm. And you had to go and get your food stamps. We only got for a week. Remember? I told you that.
Lisa Funk: For filling out the food stamps for one week? Yeah. Okay. And why? Why was that?
Violet Douglas: Because he was laid off for a week or something like that. I don't know. But he didn't want to take charity if he didn't have to. Mhm. So we, we took it for one week. Mm hmm. I thought that was pretty good. Yeah.
Lisa Funk: And what, what does that mean when you say they, what did they do for you? What did you get from. From the people who were helping through the Depression. Do you.
Violet Douglas: Well, they didn't give you anything like money to spend or anything like that. But if you had a baby and they needed diapers, they would see that you had diapers and milk for them to drink and stuff like that that you wouldn't ordinarily do.
Lisa Funk: You know? Okay.
Violet Douglas: So I don't know. It was yeah, it was bad going through it. I don't remember at all because I can't. I got too much stuff, you know?
Lisa Funk: Yeah.
Violet Douglas: Something else is coming on all the time.
Lisa Funk: Right, Right. Okay.
Violet Douglas: And he knew he had to get better work and we had to leave Mecca because there's nothing there, you know, and.
Lisa Funk: Mm hmm. So that's what you said. That's why you left Mecca. Because it was a there was a small town and everything around it was farm. Yeah. And that's where you grew up. That's what you were used to.
Violet Douglas: Yeah.
Lisa Funk: So was it very different for you to move from a place that was all farms and moving into a big city?
Violet Douglas: Oh, yes. I couldn't believe what I was saying. You know what.
Lisa Funk: Kind of things that you say That was all the.
Violet Douglas: Big buildings and the clothes were all different.
Lisa Funk: They were.
Violet Douglas: You know, if you had a pair of overalls and a T-shirt in Mecca you were dressed up if they were clean or new.
Lisa Funk: Mhm.
Violet Douglas: You know, of there you could put on your dress, your clothes and you know.
Lisa Funk: So that was really different.
Violet Douglas: Oh that was different. It made me feel like I was a queen.
Lisa Funk: Mm.
Violet Douglas: Because I didn't. Well when he got a job I bought myself some clothes and gloves and stuff I never had.
Lisa Funk: So that was something that they didn't have in Mecca.
Violet Douglas: That's right.
Lisa Funk: Or was it something that they didn't have or that people just didn't bother with?
Violet Douglas: They didn't they didn't think they needed a no one never had an event, were never seen like this in my life.
Lisa Funk: No, it wasn't this the weather was different between.
Violet Douglas: Oh yes.
Lisa Funk: Yeah. And here.
Violet Douglas: Yeah. Oh yeah. We would have light snow. It might be up to your ankles sometimes calf of your leg. But we got, we had a big. Stone wall. Not a sand. Pile. No. It was just a big place that was the level, or we called it the gravel pit. But it wasn't until it was just level and it would snow on that and then we'd go out there and play games in the snow and it was soft, white and. Cold , but we. Enjoyed that. Here I can enjoy snow.
Lisa Funk: Yeah. Did you enjoy it then, though, when you when you first came to Detroit? It was just too much. So you.
Violet Douglas: It was too much
Lisa Funk: Is that what you mean? Okay.
Violet Douglas: My sister and I would go downtown and. Easter. Time to buy clothes for Easter. Couldn't wear or be snowing when we first came here.
Lisa Funk: What kind of clothes would you buy for Easter?
Violet Douglas: Would buy a dress and a coat to match. Silk or rayon or whatever. There was a made out. To the Boston shoe shop and buy shoes to match. If we want to live there. And that was good. Something I'd never done before.
Lisa Funk: So it was the first time to shop like that. And because you didn't need the clothes like that when you lived in Mecca? No.
Violet Douglas: Well, I had some dresses, but even when I was a kid at home, when I was like 15, 14, sometimes mom would get the catalog out and she'd order me a dress. While, they were $1.98, you know. Yeah. You can imagine. But I loved it. Yeah, I did, too.
Lisa Funk: What do you what was the difference when you were shopping here? So you just said that that maybe something out of the catalog when you were a kid was $1.98. What was the difference when, like, let's say if you went if you were in Hudson's or Crowley's. I want to.
Violet Douglas: Catalog up.
Lisa Funk: Here. No. When you went to the store and shopped and bought your dress clothes there.
Violet Douglas: Oh, yeah.
Lisa Funk: Yeah. That's how you That's. Is that how you did it?
Violet Douglas: No, I would just look.
Lisa Funk: Okay.
Violet Douglas: And if I saw something that I really liked, I would say, can I save some money to get this?
Lisa Funk: You know? Yeah.
Violet Douglas: Because it took a while to save up a little bit, you know? Yeah. I couldn't just go in and buy a dress, and. But if I didn't, he would. Cause he wouldn't hang on to his money, but he'd buy some for me.
Lisa Funk: When you say, Hey, are you talking about your husband? Yeah. Mm hmm.
Violet Douglas: Yeah. And he comes straight to town. I don't know, because I was never down there where he'd go. He went to the head shop and the record shop, and. And he found a sample shoe size shop.
Lisa Funk: Yeah.
Violet Douglas: And he'd bring me home two and three pearl high heeled shoes. And that's all I ever wanted was high heels. I didn't know what a low heel she was. You know, I never had sneakers or anything. Never saw her.
Lisa Funk: Was that. Was that how women mostly dress, then?
Violet Douglas: Oh, yeah.
Lisa Funk: They were nice. Did they wear, like, nice dresses and overcoats and high heeled shoes? Was that.
Violet Douglas: Well, I don't really know. But yeah, when we go out, we go to Frank and George's. I never drank, you know? I never drank anything.
Lisa Funk: Yeah.
Violet Douglas: Now, if I couldn't order a shot but he wouldn't drink it said to put it up to his mouth. You know, he wasn't very good. George wouldn't drink, period.
Lisa Funk: Mm hmm.
Violet Douglas: And, of course, you know, right there.
Lisa Funk: Mm hmm.
Violet Douglas: And we'd sit in there and then pretend to drink while we had a beer.
Lisa Funk: Mm hmm.
Violet Douglas: Oh, boy.
Lisa Funk: What did you do? What did you do socially during those times? Like, what did you do for fun? bowl? Mm hmm.
Violet Douglas: And I went to local bar so we could have a beer, you know?
Lisa Funk: Yeah.
Violet Douglas: I wouldn't sit and drink all night. Don't get me wrong. But, you know, we'd have one bottle of beer was enough.
Lisa Funk: Yeah.
Violet Douglas: I was just slow drinkers, you know? Just talk. Say what we'd like to do and what we would like to do. And how much money have you saved? The lives of years. And we can go and buy the girls a dress or her shoes.
Lisa Funk: Mm hmm.
Violet Douglas: But of course, they couldn't buy. Oh, Oh. High heeled shoes for her because she had bad taste.
Lisa Funk: You're talking about your sister, Amanda. She had. Mm hmm.
Violet Douglas: I don't want to call them. Mm hmm. They turned in. And she could wear high heels.
Lisa Funk: Mm hmm.
Violet Douglas: Well, I started mine, and I loved them.
Lisa Funk: So, Grandma, you. So you said that the whole time we've been talking, you've told me about your childhood and about being born blind and going to school after you regained your sight and how those experiences were for you and getting married. Yeah. Going back home and spend the first night with your mama and then grandpa not being able to find work. So you ended up moving to Detroit by way of New York because you went there first. Right. You worked in the airplane factories and you worked at downtown in the drugstores and buying.
Violet Douglas: Mm hmm. I loved that.
Lisa Funk: So almost everything that you've talked about, you've included Uncle George and Aunt Maureen. And just to clarify. You've told me that Uncle George was your husband. My grandfather's twin brother? Yeah. And Aunt Maureen was his wife. Which in turn would be your sister in law.
Violet Douglas: Right.
Lisa Funk: Were the four of you always together?
Violet Douglas: Oh, no.
Lisa Funk: No, no.
Violet Douglas: No. I. We were married so long and Frank could dance. He could dance any kind of dance he wanted to. I don't know if you ever saw him dance, but
Lisa Funk: I have Gram
Violet Douglas: George would never do that. So all those years, I never danced One time with George.
Lisa Funk: Mm hmm.
Violet Douglas: And we went to a lot of dances. So he would dance with her all the time. And, of course, our dance with Frank. I couldn't dance. She didn't wanna dance at all.
Lisa Funk: And he'd make.
Violet Douglas: Do you know, like Frank does? He couldn't dance. You don't dance up a storm any place, any kind of music. But not trying to move his feet.
Lisa Funk: But I. Oh, Uncle George couldn't dance. So. But sounds like. I mean, it seems like when you're talking about all the things you did, Uncle George and and Maureen were part of it. So I guess maybe what I'm trying to ask you was if you moved to a particular area, did they soon move to that?
Violet Douglas: He followed Frank everywhere I went.
Lisa Funk: Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Violet Douglas: She had she always lived with her mother. She had a stepfather. Mm hmm. And she called Pappy. Her dad lived in the town. Mm hmm. And he came over here one year, and he came to our house. Mm hmm. And he said. Well, I knew if I found Frank and VI, I would find George. Cause Frank, no worries. And he wouldn't be too far.
Lisa Funk: Yeah.
Violet Douglas: And of course, that's how he found her, you know?
Lisa Funk: What was it like to be so close? So close with them all the time? What was it like to have that family so near to you all the time?
Violet Douglas: Sometimes. Okay. Sometimes not.
Lisa Funk: You know? Yeah. Yeah.
Violet Douglas: You know how families don't agree? Sometimes.
Lisa Funk: Yeah. Well, sure.
Violet Douglas: She was the same old. You know, I had a big mouth.
Lisa Funk: Okay, so we've talked about, you know, all those jobs that you've had, but that's not our. So how many years? I'm sorry. You worked in the airplane factory. You said for quite a while. But of course, that didn't last very long because you didn't work there anymore after the war ended. Am I correct? Is that when you stopped working there?
Violet Douglas: I Well, married.
Lisa Funk: And then do you know where you went after that, where you worked after that?
Violet Douglas: No, I didn't work until I got a call to go to the bookbinding.
Lisa Funk: Okay. Do you remember the name of that place?
Violet Douglas: Oh, my God. I should.
Lisa Funk: Was the name of it consolidated litho. Your mom's place. Is that where my mother worked? Mm hmm.
Violet Douglas: Mm hmm. Consolidated litho? Yeah. Not us.
Lisa Funk: But it was the photo bindery.
Violet Douglas: Well, no, there wasn't really a binding place like ours. They had some of the machines. Same, but didn't work like we did. Yeah. Yeah, I like that too. I finally did. I didn't like it at first, but I got with it. I really liked it.
Lisa Funk: What about. What about? At first you did. You didn't like What was it that you didn't like?
Violet Douglas: Well, you had to put wires in binders. You know how the sheets of paper go into this spring? Mm hmm. Well, I had to do that, and I hurt my fingers, and I didn't like it. Mm hmm. But then we had to take that binder after we got that done, flip it over and fasten it on the other side. I love that I could do that fast. So that's how I got a good job. But everything I tried until I could do it damn near made it boss.
Lisa Funk: You almost made the Boss. How long did you work there?
Violet Douglas: 20 some years. Mm hmm.
Lisa Funk: Did you retire from there?
Violet Douglas: I just quit. Okay. I guess you call it retire?
Lisa Funk: Mm hmm. So what was it like when you were working there? Well, what was it like around that area when you were working there?
Violet Douglas: Well, Frank drove me to work and picked me up. Mm hmm. It didn't look too hot. It was near this some expressway. And I can't think out how well it was. But the people were all nice. The bosses were nice. And everybody got along pretty good. Mm hmm. Somehow, I think, you know.
Lisa Funk: Yeah.
Violet Douglas: So something. This is not. This is other people and. And they will listen to you in a few more years. Don't wear those flowers, flip flops, or you drop a book or a handful of books or whatever, you know? Just things like that. But not.
Lisa Funk: In bed. So you didn't love it at first, but eventually you enjoy working there? I mean, I have friends there.
Violet Douglas: Oh, God, yes.
Lisa Funk: Can I ask you maybe a silly question? I'm curious to know where you because I know it was downtown. Even though we can't remember exactly where Downtown.
Violet Douglas: Yeah.
Lisa Funk: Where did you go for your lunch? And what was around there?
Violet Douglas: There was a restaurant right behind the building.
Lisa Funk: Okay.
Violet Douglas: But sometimes I didn't go there. I would just stay there and I'd take something. Mm hmm. You know, I didn't like sandwiches, but they had a place where you could buy sandwiches and coke and coffee and stuff. You know, you had your room to go to for dinner. For lunch.
Lisa Funk: Was there a lot of places to walk to in that in that area of downtown, or was it an area just where it was mostly business?
Violet Douglas: Yes. Businesses.
Lisa Funk: It was business.
Violet Douglas: All kinds of buildings, you know.
Lisa Funk: Okay.
Violet Douglas: That wasn't all corroded. Well, it was very old. It was painted like a burnt orange or something, you know, funny looking, but it was spread out pretty good size. Mm hmm. When you started walking through again, it kind of tired.
Lisa Funk: Yeah.
Violet Douglas: But I've done a lot of different things in there. You know, they had machines that done all kinds of things. They had a machine they put me on one time, The boss, he said, No way. You can only use. You can only there's two screws in this machine. You can only put oil in one. Don't ever put a drop of oil in this hole because it don't work. Okay. Well, the guy that done all the all the machines had two special oils, and he combined them all for the special Screw that. You put the oil and I said, It's right here. I said, this one has never had an oil. I said, Why don't you come drop in there? No, Harold told me, Don't you ever put in it. I said, I have to work this machine and that one. I can't use that pedal and I have to use this one twice. Put a drop in half. A drop? Yeah, please. Oh, What's for Harold? So he did. And then I put my foot on that.
Lisa Funk: So it was much better. Did it work? Much better with.
Violet Douglas: Herald come by He looked at me looked at the machince and he said, How do you get the door? I said, I put my foot on it.
Lisa Funk: So when you worked at the paper bindery or the it was a bindery current, when you worked at the paper bindrey, do you remember where you lived? What part of the city you lived in at all?
Violet Douglas: Sure.
Lisa Funk: Take your time.
Violet Douglas: Oh, God.
Lisa Funk: It's okay Gram.
Violet Douglas: We lived. Oh, he still lived out on the farm.
Lisa Funk: He lived and we drove.
Violet Douglas: They lived in Christchurch, but they were dropped off at the restaurant. And when it came time, we'd go right straight across the street to work.
Lisa Funk: Okay, so at this point, you didn't live right in the city you lived on. You lived on a farm? Well.
Violet Douglas: For a little while we still did. Okay. And then we moved to. Detroit City. Mm hmm. Is this sort of where we live now? No.
Lisa Funk: That's okay.
Violet Douglas: Well. Oh, we lived over there. Oh, I don't know where it was as a side west side or whatever. Remember when you're involved at the church?
Lisa Funk: Yes, I do.
Violet Douglas: Okay. That's where we lived then.
Lisa Funk: That was the east side.
Violet Douglas: And this is our last stop.
Lisa Funk: That was your last stop. This is all right here now. Yeah. Okay. But when you lived on the East side, were you. And you worked at the paper factory. Were you? How old were your kids then? Were they in school?
Violet Douglas: Oh, when I worked in them. In bindrey. Oh, yeah, sure. And worked in a binder. Okay. With me. So did Jojo.
Lisa Funk: Okay.
Violet Douglas: And, uh. But not long periods, you know, when you're not busy and lay off. But it worked for a while, and each one of them I just got part of, I said, oh, I'm old enough to retire. So you'd fly.
Lisa Funk: So you did. So you did. Can you can I ask you a little bit about where your kids went to school? Yeah.
Violet Douglas: Don went to Don to Western High School. Mm hmm. Sharon. I don't know if she went to Western at all or not but she but she worked at Witmore mostly.
Lisa Funk: Okay.
Violet Douglas: And Frank want to. You can think of it.
Lisa Funk: That's okay. Grandma, did they all graduate from Detroit High School?
Violet Douglas: Yeah.
Lisa Funk: They all did. And Gay actually, did Aunt Gay graduate early, and then she went on to college. And where did she go to college?
Violet Douglas: Ann Arbor.
Lisa Funk: So did she move out of Detroit then? Does she live there?
Violet Douglas: Well, she had a room there, you know. And she. Yeah, she fell in love and bachelor went to Maine and, well, they got married. You know. I heard. Gwen. And you took her to Maine?
Lisa Funk: Mm hmm.
Violet Douglas: I don't want to have to talk about. Oh, no, we.
Lisa Funk: Don't have to talk about that. So everybody else was still in Detroit?
Violet Douglas: Yeah.
Lisa Funk: And they graduated from there? Yeah. And then eventually you moved away from the city?
Violet Douglas: Yeah.
Lisa Funk: Where did you move? Do you know? Do you remember?
Violet Douglas: I'm trying. That's what I thought about a minute ago, you know? But I lost.
Lisa Funk: It. Was that when you moved to Walden Lake?
Violet Douglas: No, I never did.
Lisa Funk: No, you didn't. Okay. I'm sorry. My mistake. Thank you for clarifying that.
Violet Douglas: All right, George.
Lisa Funk: Uncle George and Maureen lived involved. Say, I know I heard it somewhere. Okay, well, it doesn't matter where. But you knew what?
Violet Douglas: It was out there. near Wald Lake
Lisa Funk: it was was out there Milford.
Violet Douglas: South Lyon.
Lisa Funk: South Lyon. Okay, good. Thank you.
Violet Douglas: I knew. I thought of the wall and all.
Lisa Funk: And what was it like living when you moved away from the city? Moving to a place like South Lyon?
Violet Douglas: I didn't like.
Lisa Funk: It. You didn't know? What was it?
Violet Douglas: There was Nothing there. You could go to the post office, but look around. You might as well stayed at home because there's nothing there to look at, you know?
Lisa Funk: So do you. Are you saying that you didn't like it because it was different from the city?
Violet Douglas: Nothing to do or look at or see or no place to go in the car.
Lisa Funk: Mm hmm. You know.
Violet Douglas: The only thing I like for the kids to do is go get apples. They got apples every weekend.
Lisa Funk: Mm hmm. And.
Violet Douglas: Of course, I enjoy that because I thought they were getting them for nothing, you know?
Lisa Funk: Mm hmm. Yeah.
Violet Douglas: Plan?
Lisa Funk: Yeah. And so you lived. How long did you live in South Lyon for?
Violet Douglas: Oh, gosh, I don't know. But we had good friends there. You know, they come over. One was a musician, and his wife was to. Yeah. And they played music and sang and danced. And that's what we did on the weekends.
Lisa Funk: Yeah. So although you didn't love it and South Lyon and you still haven't got.
Violet Douglas: Sick of it, you.
Lisa Funk: Know? Yeah. But it sounds like you enjoyed your friends and dances. Well.
Violet Douglas: They were really good friends, and they were nice and. Mm hmm. Of course, he got very drunk a lot. I think he was sick. Mm hmm. You know, I feel sorry for him now. Yeah. Hmm. I think that those would kill him, you know? Yeah. I felt bad for him. I felt bad for her. She was nice kid.
Lisa Funk: And so you. You stayed in South Lyon for a while, and then. And then you moved to.
Violet Douglas: I'm trying to think now from South Lyon to, uh.
Lisa Funk: I don't know. I remember when I was little, you lived off of Eight Mile Road. Is that correct? Mm. So you ended up back in Detroit for a little while? Yeah, back in this. Right in the middle of the city. Is that right?
Violet Douglas: Yeah. Mhm. lived in a Trailer.
Lisa Funk: Lived in a trailer. Yeah. And how was that? I remember that. How was that for you?
Violet Douglas: Wasn't bad. I had a lot of company.
Lisa Funk: You know.
Violet Douglas: All the time. Don was in the church deal and I had parties and they had bingo and everything and we were always busy. And I took you to shopping every day.
Lisa Funk: I know you did every day.
Violet Douglas: I know.
Lisa Funk: I'm not supposed to say this because it's not about me, but I have really, really good memories of that time when you lived on Eight mile.
Violet Douglas: . Can we go, Grandma? Can we go to the. What did you call it? You said it backwards, whatever it was. Not true storm. It was a secondhand store, wasn't it? Or was it?
Lisa Funk: I think so.
Violet Douglas: Thrift shop. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. There you go. Thrift shop or they call it. Not a secondhand store. I know, because I used to say, yes, I'm going to take you there. And I'd say the same thing you did.
Lisa Funk: And how how did. How did you take me there? How. How did we.
Violet Douglas: Want.
Lisa Funk: Yeah. What? We wanted was on the big city streets.
Violet Douglas: I said, Oh, yeah, you can see everything, you know? And it was nice. You didn't have to be afraid of anything and anybody bothering you, you know? And we'd walk in there and some of the girls would be there day to day, and they'd look at you and say, We're still with your mama, Grandma, That can't be your grandma.
Lisa Funk: Hmm.
Violet Douglas: That's where that woman used to do it. Kasia The small men down and go in there and you see. Moms not feeling good today, so I thought I'd bring her up here and buy her a ring. I knew that was your mother. He said, That's not my mom. My mom is way over on the side. I know your mom when I see her.
Lisa Funk: So you lived. You lived on eight mile? Yeah. And you lived there for quite a while.
Violet Douglas: Yeah, we did. Mm hmm. And then remember, then we moved to, I guess, back here someplace. But now. Oh, I have to. I do have to stop. Think.
Lisa Funk: No, that's okay. Yeah. Because you lived on my own in the city. You went back to the city and lived there, and then you moved just outside of the city and one of the suburbs, which is where you are now? Yeah. So do you do. What's the difference between here and when you lived in the city where you live right now and when you lived in the city?
Violet Douglas: Well, things a lot of things have changed. You know. I used to go places all the time with Don. We went everywhere.
Lisa Funk: And who was Don?
Violet Douglas: Don, My son.
Lisa Funk: Okay. Hmm.
Violet Douglas: Yeah. Him and I used to go to the racetrack once a month.
Lisa Funk: Mm hmm.
Violet Douglas: And no, we didn't go to the casinos. There was nothing here. Right. And. But they take me to the racetrack and on my birthday they take me to Canada where they'd look at the programs. And if there was a horse in there, maybe something. One was Who? Who's your Playboy or something? And because Hoosiers are Indian and as a nickname, right? They take me over there and we have a good time. Now, frankly, I don't like to go anywhere. I said, I wish you'd learn to drive. Take me to the casino. He never does get lost downtown.
Lisa Funk: Can I ask you about that, Grandma? Why? You never had a driver's license since you've just learned to drive. I don't. Well.
Violet Douglas: Everybody would pick me up. There was. Everybody had cars, so I didn't feel like I had to drive.
Lisa Funk: Right. Mhm.
Violet Douglas: I wasn't lazy.
Lisa Funk: Mhm. No. No. You know. Mhm. Ah.
Violet Douglas: I don't know, I just seemed like somebody said well come on let's go somewhere a little early and go you know. Mhm.
Lisa Funk: I was asking because I wondered we've talked a lot about how you were blind as a child and you and I know you have your eyesight now. You said that you got your eyesight back when you were and only, you know, 7 or 8 years old. I wondered if you had had a vision problems with your vision even though you had your eyesight back. If you still had problems with your vision, with your, you know, with your eyes and losing the swings, you feel like you're losing sight in one area. I know I am.
Violet Douglas: I can tell when I look. Everything is blurry. Mhm.
Lisa Funk: Yeah. And so you'll.
Violet Douglas: Know to left before I finally water off. But I would sit here and do this and it's all fuzzy like and I do this, it's plain as.
Lisa Funk: Plain as day. Mhm.
Violet Douglas: I could look at your writing up there on that thing with this eye and would look like you was a little nurse.
Lisa Funk: Okay Grandma. So it sounds like then that. Well doesn't sound like what you've told me is that you were born and raised in South Indiana. Central Indiana? Yeah, in a little tiny town called Mecca. And that you had a pretty decent childhood, even though you had some struggles because you were blind.
Violet Douglas: Well, see, I don't remember most of that because I had somebody taking care of me all the time.
Lisa Funk: Yeah. You know, and then you said things got better because. Oh, yeah, Because they helped you. Oh, yeah. And you got your side back, and then you got to go to school. Oh, yeah. And you talked about how amazing it was to be able to see something. Yeah. And try to fly like a bird when you see a bird fly.
Violet Douglas: Well, the teacher showed me books, and they showed me pencils and papers and, you know, a desk that I could have. Yeah. I was so low, my feet went to the floor.
Lisa Funk: Mhm. You're still little. And then you, you married your husband. My grandfather? Yeah. When you were 19 now and moved to the city of Detroit and worked in some dime stores, as we call them, drugstores. And you worked at the airplane factory during the war and you lived through the Depression and. And did some things there that you talked about and then went on to have a job that you essentially retired from at a paper factory and raised your kids there. They graduated from there. Oh, yeah. And you spend a lot of years there and then ended up just kind of moving not completely away from the city because you're in a suburb of the city. Yeah. Okay. Well, I've.
Violet Douglas: Lived here quite a while.
Lisa Funk: Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. You've been here for about 20 more than 20 years or.
Violet Douglas: More than 2020. Your rambles have been married. Been married more than 20.
Lisa Funk: Oh, yeah. I've lived here a long time. Yeah. But so close to the city. Yeah. Okay, Grandma. Well, I would like to say thank you so much for the opportunity for this interview.
Violet Douglas: And it's very welcome.
Lisa Funk: It's been my honor and my privilege. Thank you.
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Title
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Violet Douglas, March 3rd, 2014
Description
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In this interview, Violet Douglas talks about the transition from growing up in a rural town to living an adult life in Detroit and raising a family.
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
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Detroit Historical Society
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en-US
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Title
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Detroit Journeys by Marygrove College
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
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Detroit Historical Society
Language
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en-US
Creator
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Marygrove College
Oral History
An audio or video resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Narrator/Interviewee's Name
The current first and last name of the person speaking or being interviewed.
LaDonna Byrd
Brief Biography
A short biography of the Interviewee
LaDonna Byrd was born on April 25th, 1960. She was the sixth of seven children. After tragically losing her parents and oldest brother at just 7 years old, she went on to make an impact and raise her own family.
Interviewer's Name
The first and last name of the interviewer.
Carmen Byrd
Interview Place
The place where the interview was conducted.
Detroit, MI
Date
The date of the interview in MM/DD/YYYY format.
3/27.2008
Interview Length
The total length of the interview in HH:MM:SS format.
51:07
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
Carmen Byrd: The name of the interviewer is Carmen Byrd. The name of the interviewee is LaDonna Byrd. Today's date is March 27th, 2008, and this interview is taking place in my home. Madonna I just wanted to make sure that you have read and understood the interview, agreement and purpose, and I have your consent to record this interview.
LaDonna Byrd: Yes, you do.
Carmen Byrd: So how do you feel, Donna?
LaDonna Byrd: I'm fine, thank you very much.
Carmen Byrd: Okay. Well, let's get started with this interview. When were you born?
LaDonna Byrd: I was born April 25th, 1960, in Lincoln Park, Michigan, which I just find that I'm not too long ago. And I was applying for a passport. All this time I thought I was born in Detroit, Michigan.
Carmen Byrd: Oh, wow. That was a real shocker, huh?
LaDonna Byrd: Kind of.
Carmen Byrd: Okay. And you were raised in Lincoln Park, Michigan?
LaDonna Byrd: No, I was raised in Detroit for the most part. Yes, raised in Detroit.
Carmen Byrd: Okay. Okay. And what was your childhood like?
LaDonna Byrd: Well, let's see. How was my childhood? It was fun. You know, back then, we we play, you know, with friends in the neighborhood were able to just go outside and go up and down the street and around the block. As long as we were home, the street lights were on. When the streetlights came on, we were okay. My I remember sitting on my father's lap when he would come home for dinner after work, and I would sit on one side and my brother would sit on the other side and we'd pick out his food. I remember when my mom would come home, she would be tired because she would be standing for the most part of the day. On her feet. And so my job was to rub her feet. And I remember in the summertime when I'd have to do that and I would be one that came back outside quickly and I would be in the room and I'd rather feet real gently and softly trying to get it to go to sleep real quick so that I could just run back outside and play. And then my favorite mama's favorite time as a child was Christmas, you know? And the reason that I enjoyed Christmas so much wasnt the the gifts because we had quite a few kids in our family. I was number six of seven, so it wasn't the amount. I guess it was just the the atmosphere. And everyone in our house was the house that everybody gathered at and came to. And it would be who wouldn't have cousins and aunts and uncles and grandparents all in the house. And so it'd be a lot of people, it would be a lot of food, it would be a lot of conversation. And it was just a fun atmosphere and I enjoyed it a lot. And those are those are the main things that I remember about my childhood. It was kind of love to me, I guess. You know, my my memory of my childhood was kind of cut short because. Because it's a tragic incident that had occurred. And so. That's what I mostly remember about. Those are good things that I remember about my childhood.
Carmen Byrd: Okay. Well, so I understand that you were born and mainly raised in Lincoln Park, Michigan. Detroit, Michigan. Right. Okay. And Lincoln Park is the birthplace.
LaDonna Byrd: It was the house that I was born in the hospital at the park.
Carmen Byrd: Oh, okay. And childhood was fun for you playing with friends. And what time exactly? The industry lights Come on.
LaDonna Byrd: Well, I don't know. I just know that when the city lights came on, he had to be at home.
Carmen Byrd: Okay. And what would happen if you weren't at home when the streetlights came on.
LaDonna Byrd: You got in trouble, and you might not be able to go outside and play the next day.
Carmen Byrd: You didn't want that to happen.
LaDonna Byrd: No. No, not at all. Not at all. Okay. Okay.
Carmen Byrd: And so. So what were your parents like? I heard you say that your mom used to stand on her feet all day. Most of the time you would come in and rub her feet. What did she do? And Father doing everything.
LaDonna Byrd: Well, my mom was a dietitian at a hospital. And it's funny because my sister just became a dietitian, So I guess it just mean I work in health care for my mom. Ran through our in our blood. But she was a dietitian, so she would be on her feet all day with getting me the meals and things like that for the patients. I believe that the hospital she worked at was the Veterans Administration has payroll, which I think was in Lincoln Park. Yeah. And my father was an electrician. And. He worked hard. They both worked hard.
Carmen Byrd: Yes. Do you care to elaborate on the the tragic event?
LaDonna Byrd: Oh, well. When I was nine, I was seven years old. I wasn't quite eight yet. And my parents, we had had Christmas the holiday season. And my parents had went and picked up my grandfather, who lived in Georgia, my father's father, and brought him up for the Christmas holiday. And when everything was all said and done and had a very, very happy holiday and it was time to take my grandfather back, my father and my mother and my oldest brother and his new wife drove my grandfather back to Georgia. And on their way on their return trip, coming back home, there was an accident. And there was a truck that a double banana truck. But I understand that had jackknifed on the freeway. And there were no no hazard lights or signs or whatever. And my parents didn't see it and ran right into it. And the car burst into flames and everybody everyone was killed except for my sister in law who was thrown from the vehicle. So so in that instance, I lost my my mom, my dad and my oldest brother.
Carmen Byrd: I'm sorry.
LaDonna Byrd: Yeah, it's been a long time. A very long time.
Carmen Byrd: So how did that affect everything afterwards?
LaDonna Byrd: Oh, it changed everything. It changed everything. At least from what I remember. I remember being a happy kid in my parents home. They were, you know, I had brothers and a sister. They were much older because my I was I was seven and my baby brother was four when it happened. But the next person after me was 15. And then it was everybody else. And there were five kids after me and they were like 15, 16, 19, 20. And then my oldest brother who was killed was like 21. So. I was young and at the time, you know, I was just I was just a kid. Everything was was fun. It was, you know, playing go to school and play some more. I didn't have I didn't have a whole lot of responsibilities that I knew. And I did, you know, like love my parents and I was happy and home. So when this happened, it just turned everything upside down. My second oldest brother, who was in the army, was discharged. And we we he he tried to keep us all together in our family's home. But he was young and we were all young. And he wasn't married, so he didn't have a wife that could help. And and he couldn't do it. And so after a while and not too long, maybe, maybe a year, but after trying to do that. Everybody started dispersing. I family at home wasn't the home where everybody gathered anymore. I guess mainly probably because the main people weren't there. You know, my parents were there. And then the the rest of us, we kind of dispersed out my. Older brother, he him and my next brother. They went back up to they went to eastern Michigan where where my brother was going to school. And my sister, she went to live with another uncle because they had a daughter who was around her age. And then myself, my baby brother and my brother that was eight years older than I, and he was still in high school. He we all went to stay with my uncle and aunt. My uncle was my father's brother and my aunt was his wife. So we went there to stay. And it was it was difficult. It wasn't an ideal situation. There were a lot of things that occurred, you know, while we were there. Eventually, not too soon after, we were we were there. My older brother, the one who was eight years older than me, Keith, he was he he left. So it was just myself and my baby brother. And times were my my uncle wasn't there much. He worked and he spent a lot of time in his garage and and working on cars. To me, looking back on things, I felt that she was resentful and she was hateful and vengeful. Just just mean. And it was well, you know, and it was mostly to me, it was mostly to me, at least that's how I felt. She was born in the time rate and raised in a time where the women did everything and the men, you know, did certain things like clean up, clean as, you know, clean up outside and take the trash out, that kind of stuff. And the women did everything else. They did the house, they cooked, they watched, did all of that. And so. And and so I was because I was the only girl there. She didn't have any kids. She couldn't have any kids. And because I was going to other than that man, I had to do everything. So I did all of the I did the washing at walls and floors and this and that. And then there was my baby brother. And then she had two of her sister's children who are both boys. So was three boys. And they had to take out the trash and pick up the yard. And I thought that it was pretty lopsided.
Carmen Byrd: Pretty unfair.
LaDonna Byrd: Yes. Yes, very much so. And yeah, and then my and then, you know, my aunt and my uncle didn't have a really stable relationship and my uncle left leaving us in the care of my and my. I was yeah, she wasn't a blood relative. She was, she was married into the family. So I think that, you know, that was one of the things that she within it was the fact that she had they they as a couple had taken us in and then my uncle left. And so she was responsible for raising kids that she didn't really care for. And so I think and as I think that she became resentful of that and resentful of the way that my uncle left left. And and so she kind of took that out, I believe, on on us. Yeah.
Carmen Byrd: You mostly.
LaDonna Byrd: Mean mostly. Yes. Okay.
Carmen Byrd: Well, I guess we could talk about the 60s and 70s. You probably don't remember too much about the 60s because you were born in the 60s. You were still little.
LaDonna Byrd: Yeah, well, that's true. I don't remember much. And what I do remember I've just told you about being, you know, with my, my parents and the fact that they were killed and you're living with my aunt and uncle and everything that was, you know, all of that was from 1960 to 19 70s in the air and then in the 70s, you know, those were my teen years. Then I, you know, I then became a teenager. The the things that I remember. Oh, goodness. Living on the on the black. We were still in southwest Detroit, so I was still in Detroit and near my own home. But then out there, I went to River Rouge High, which I think was a great school to go to because the way we were just set up, you had elementary schools on different on both sides of railroad tracks. And on one side of the railroad tracks was elementary school that the black children went to. And on the other side of the tracks was the elementary school that all the white children went to. But we only had one high school. And so you had to come together in that one high school. And I thought that it and since then, graduating and being out in the real world and everything, I've always felt that I'm going to river retired gave me a good basis to be out in society because. You're not in the real world. You're not working for the most part, and you don't work with just black people or just white people. And you don't go to your everyday life and don't encounter people of other races. You, you know, it's all intermingle, is all intermingled. And you do deal with people of other races and other cultures. And by growing up being in a school like that, it. It gave me the opportunity. I was given the opportunity to learn and to be able to socialize with people of a different race. And when I came out of that school, I came out with the realization that, you know, basically we're all the same, the bottom, we're all human beings. And that the only, you know, the color of the skin is just. Is just the appearance. But underneath it all, we we are we're all the same. We all believe we all have issues and we all want a lot of the same things. So, you know, so I thought it was a good school to grow up in and and learn. I had my first boyfriend and. He was a boy and she liked him. And so she would let me date. She would let me date him like I could go to the movies and stuff with him, but I kind of wanted to venture out. So every every summer when we got a summer break, I would break up with him. Oh. Hopes that I could find a new boyfriend over the summer. And then in the fall, I go back to school and we'd be we'd date. We'd be back together because I never could find another boyfriend. And it took you back? Yeah. Yeah.
Carmen Byrd: He was really.
LaDonna Byrd: Liked. Yeah. Yeah, I guess so.
Carmen Byrd: And how old were you when you were, you know, on and off with this boy?
LaDonna Byrd: Well, I believe it started when I was like, I want to say that. 13 or 14. Because back, you know, I went to River Rouge. The elementary school went from kindergarten to seventh grade. And then you start in high school in eighth grade. So I was high school in eighth grade, and I met him at the ice cream parlor one summer and went to get some ice cream. And he was there. And and then when I went to school in the fall. In high school. He was. He was there.
Carmen Byrd: See, we were the same age.
LaDonna Byrd: He was two years older. Which I think is good for. And that's something that I've taught my girls and my son. I'm working on him. But, you know, no more than two years older because I feel that. Boys, you know, who are older than that. Expect more from you and have, you know, ventured and had and had experiences and things that you haven't had. And because of that, they want you. They want you to act a certain way or want to be involved and do things that they're used to doing already. And you haven't gotten to that point yet. I think that if you're dealing with someone who is, you know, no more than two years older than you, then you know, you more or less have a more level playing field and you won't get. To you won't get and for lack of a better word, is suckered into doing something that you wouldn't normally do. So yeah, but, but but the 70s were good times. Out of the more hot pants we had. I remember the jeans that people were wearing were we had bellbottoms and then the straightening jeans came on and I thought that would never last. And they're still here today.
Carmen Byrd: But what are hot pants.
LaDonna Byrd: Hot pants are shorts basically that's what they wear. But you had like these these outfits where you would have I remember my favorites were you would have a like a mini skirt. I mean, a mini dress. The top was not just a short top. This topped at your waist. It went down to maybe maybe the middle or just a little further on your thigh. And then you had a pair of shorts that were the same, same material, the same design and everything of that of the mini dress. And those shorts would go on under. And so, yes, your dress was real, your dress was short, but then you had only shorts up under it. That was that was just like the material stuff. And that was hot pants. And I guess they were hot because they were short. They're not as short as some of the shorts you see today, that's for sure. So I guess, you know, those were hot pants, I guess. Today's pants are hot hot pants? I don't know. Think those were those. Yeah. Dealt with something else so and I in the 70s I ran away from home from your my aunt's house. Yes. I ran away from my aunt's house. And that was the beginning of the next section of my life.
Carmen Byrd: And you ran away because of her being these few feeling issues, resentful towards you and. Yeah. Yeah.
LaDonna Byrd: And she was. She was just mean and nasty. And. And I. I remember. Pacing back and forth in my bedroom that night. And I was talking to myself and not only with talking to myself, but I was done and sent back in. And as that and I was thinking this is not good. And I felt that if I didn't leave and I think that because I still had another year of high school to go and I was trying to figure that out, but I felt that if I didn't leave and I stay, then I would be crazy. By the time I was by the time was time for me to graduate from school. And I didn't want that to happen. And so I made the decision to run away. And with the help of my baby brother, who was still there with me, I was able to do so. And I ran to my sister's house, who my sister was living in, my parents old house. And she wasn't there. So I went across the street to family, friends, and they contacted my brother and my brother came and he got me and I told him that I wasn't going back. And if they took me back, I was just run away again. And next time I wouldn't come to them so they wouldn't know where I was at. And they took me to they took me to their home the next day and found out that my baby brother ran away too, because he didn't want to stay there without me. And he ran away and he ran to my sister's house. But he was, I guess, you know, he was a little bit smarter. He went into their basement to my sister's basement window. So while he was over there in my sister's house, in the house, I was across the street at a neighbor's house because I couldn't get into the house. But so we eventually they ended up staying with my brother and his wife and his family for a while. I was I was able to go ahead on and graduate from high school. I was in my senior year. I had completed all of my curriculum for a lot of my curriculum. So I had work study because I only had to go to school in the morning. And then in the afternoon I had my first job. I was a receptionist at a podiatrist office and I had a little car. So I would get back and forth to school and to work and everything. And I worked hard.
LaDonna Byrd: I raised money through different fundraisers and all of that stuff so that I could get my senior pictures and buy my class ring and go on our class trip, which was to Florida, okay. And we were gone for a whole week and we had a really good time. Graduation was wonderful. And I and I went on and I went off to college. I went to college at Wayne State University. And that that was the beginning because I was on my own, basically. And I and from then on, I've been on my own and I, you know, and stayed in apartments and I stayed on campus for a semester waiting for my apartment. I, you know, learned through a lot of trial and error to, you know, take care of myself and pay my bills. And, you know, I just learned how to how to live and how to be a person. And I I'm happy to say that I did graduate from college with a bachelor's degree. Okay.
Carmen Byrd: That's wonderful. Well, okay, So basically, the 70s, when you're going to high school and it was no longer segregated anymore and you were able to graduate, you ran away from home, you had your first boyfriend. How long that relationship, the on and off relationship, last.
LaDonna Byrd: All the way through high school. I went to his prom and he went to my prom.
Carmen Byrd: And then after that. You guys are two separate ways.
LaDonna Byrd: Yes. Yes, but when I graduated after prom and after graduation, that was it. And but we remain, you know, like friendly. And and I've kept in touch with him throughout the years, although not so much lately. I haven't talked to him in over ten years, probably. Mm hmm. Yeah. But, you know, the funny part about it was he was the is the cousin of one of my best friends in high school, and we're still really good friends. I see her every day during the week because we work together. And then she's one of my one of my best friends, So she's a part of my once a month girls night out. So and I haven't talked to him and actually I have you know, I think I'm going to ask the.
Carmen Byrd: Man that, you know, I told him this telephone. I'm going to do one of this stuff on. But let me just check on and see how he's doing. okay, so move on from the 70s and go on to after your bachelors at Wayne State and marriage. When you when you finally get well not finally but when you got married now how was that.
LaDonna Byrd: Okay well let's see. Marriage. How is that. Oh, well. I realize that I got married when I got. At the time, I didn't notice. But looking back on things and further down the road, I realized that when I got married, I wasn't ready for it. And the reason I felt I wasn't ready is because I didn't know myself. I didn't know who I was and what I wanted and what I liked and what I didn't like because I didn't have that that time in my life as a younger person to date. And I've felt that over the years. And like I said, looking back and think about I think that the situation that I was in and my and my aunt, you know, she was very overprotective and constraining. And so she kept a tight rein or me. And I can say that I could just date that one guy, you know. And so I wasn't I wasn't able to socialize like other kids and get to know myself and and, you know, take part in different things and and feel comfortable with myself as well as get to know learning how to get to know other people and learning different things about other people that night and things that I didn't like and trying to figure out what were basically what you called deal breakers in a relationship. And so I didn't know that. And when I met my husband, who eventually became my husband when I met him and we, you know, hit it off and things were going well and stuff, I kind of latched on to that. And so over the years of dating him, regardless of things that occurred within the relationship, I, I still I clung to the relationship. I didn't, you know, like say, okay, well, that's it, you know, and go on off and think that there was somebody else and not even being concerned about whether there was somebody else just being happy for myself and with myself. I didn't do that. And so. I went on ahead and hung in with that relationship till we got married. And then we got married and nothing changed. You know, and that's another thing, you know, you learn that you don't change. You can't change a person. The only person you can change is yourself. And you know, that ain't easy either. Yeah. I've been trying to lose weight for a while, and I ain't been able to work that out. But you just. You. The only person that you can change is yourself. You can't change somebody else. So no matter how much you want them to be a certain way or do things a certain way, you know, they have to want that, too. And as you as you grow, if you learn who you are and the kind of things that you want, then when you are with someone dating someone and you see, oh, you know, they're doing things that you know you don't you don't like and things that you, you, you won't put up with, then you realize that that's not that's not the person that you want in your life as a mate. And so, you know, you'll know how to deal with that at that time. And you won't end up marrying that person, you know, because they're not compatible with you. And so, you know, so I did learn those things. And and but what has happened is, you know, I've learned over the years the things that I mean and and right now. Yeah. I mean that that has that has helped me. But marriage was hard, you know, And throughout my marriage, I had five wonderful children and that and, you know, even though they were wonderful not to take away from that, having children made it more difficult because I felt that, you know, for a long time because I had kids, it was I was trying to deal with the marriage. And, you know, because I didn't think I could do it by myself. I didn't think I could, you know, take care of kids, you know, without his help. And, ah, but one day I came to the realization that I can do bad all by myself if and that's what our relationship was and that's what my marriage was. And the whole state of events was, it was just it was bad. It was a bad relationship. It was a bad marriage. It was. It wasn't. We weren't we. We weren't doing things. Together. It wasn't what I wanted. And I didn't want that for my kids growing up in that. And and I did. I came to the realization that. Even if we were together and I was doing bad like we were doing as a couple, if I was doing bad, I could probably be happier doing bad by myself or and with my kids then in that situation. And I'm happy to say that since being divorced, I have grown tremendously. I have been happier. I've done a lot more, I've accomplished a lot more. And I think that I have set a really good example. At least I hope so for my children that they don't have to settle, that they can do things, they can accomplish things, and they don't need to have someone else in their life to help them to accomplish those things. They can do that on their own and that an additional person in their life is just the compliment can be a complement to their life, but it's not necessary. That's what I hope instilled into my children. And words to live by?
Carmen Byrd: Okay, so you married. You've had five children. Five wonderful children.
LaDonna Byrd: Yes. Yes. Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful children. Love them to death.
Carmen Byrd: Okay. Okay. Um. Okay. So let's talk about. Came to Detroit. I understand that you left Detroit and then came back.
LaDonna Byrd: Mm hmm. Yeah. Well.
Carmen Byrd: After we were married.
LaDonna Byrd: My husband got a job, and he. We had to move to Vermont. And Vermont is not. Well, weather wise is not too much different than Detroit. But it was a culture shock because it's small, predominantly white. And I didn't know anybody. And so it was it was difficult. And then, you know, and I already said, you know, marriage wasn't great. So, you know, I was it was it was a difficult transition being in Vermont. But eventually, you know, things got better. I got involved with well, we we were going to church. And in the church I met a lady who did Mary Kay, and she got me involved in the Mary Kay process. And by doing so, I was able to. By by becoming a part of the Man Kay process. I got to meet other people and make friends. I got into the work force in Vermont and I found that living in Vermont, it was it was, you know, after maybe a year or two, I became comfortable with their way of life There It was it was different from Detroit. In in Vermont, you went to the gas station and you would pump your gas and then you pay and you go to the bank and there was no Plexiglas. And you could, you know, actually talk to the teller and face to face. And that was, you know, all of those things were different for me. The lady who did the Mary Kay. She she had me scared to come by and pick up my mom products. And when I went by, there was nothing to know what was there. The the the door was open and you could see right in. And I was like, okay, well, I went back home and later she asked me, you know, if I come by to get my stuff. And I said, Yeah, but nobody was there. And she told me, she said, Well, you could have just walked right in. And I left it in the hallway for you. And my thought was, walk in. You know, you don't just walk in other people's homes. They don't just leave their doors open for you like that, you know? But that's what they did there. You know, they didn't lock their car doors. It was just it was totally different. It was totally different from being in Detroit. And I was going to like that, especially with kids. You know, it made me feel like my kids were back when I was younger because back when I was younger, like I said, my parents had me go out and play and it was a matter of be home when the streetlights came on and you knew that. And I was young and I was all over the neighborhood, you know, all around and black and down the street and at the store and all that kind of stuff. And my parents didn't worry about me being snatched up and, you know, different things like that. And so being in Vermont, it was similar to that. My kids could go out and play. They could ride their bikes. They, you know, they didn't have all of those constraints that you did that people were having, mainly in bigger cities and things like that. So the school systems were good. My kids were learning French. They had computers in their rooms and classes. And so it was it was a good life. It did become a good life. However, Vermont is expensive to live in. The cost of living is high. And they didn't they don't have industry like we do here in Detroit. And so there's more white collar over there. So it was, you know, it was it was of it was it was good. And it opened my eyes to a different way of life as well as I think it instill some things in my children, too, because I, I had two additional children while living in Vermont. And they said. The schools and stuff of it. I think that they built they even built some relationships of with kids that to this day they still remember them. And and you know, with technology and stuff that they have now they can get on Facebook and and Myspace or whatever and say, you know, find people that they used to know which they have done. So, you know, all in Vermont was good. But yes, I lived there for ten years.
Carmen Byrd: Ten years in Vermont. Yes. Yes. Okay. So Vermont was you felt that your family was safer in in Vermont, kids were able to, you know, have fun and play like you used to when you were younger. Yeah. So that made you happy? Yes. Yes, it did. And then you moved back to Detroit after living in Vermont for two years?
LaDonna Byrd: Yes, I did.
Carmen Byrd: And how did that affect everyone? Like, including you and and, you know, the kids and the changes there?
LaDonna Byrd: Well. When you when everything in life, when you look back on things, you can say, you know, okay, well, this and that. But when you're in the in the moment when when it's happening or whatever, you just do the best that you can. You do what you think is right. Looking back on it, I know that when we were living in Vermont and we would come to visit Detroit, I was always feeling this anxeity when we would get, you know, when we over into Detroit or whatever, because of all of the different things that you hear about that's going on in the city are murders and murders and and break ins and just, you know, violence. Together with Vermont, you didn't have, you know, that the most you heard about was a cow and doing, you know, being on the road and things like that. You didn't hear about murders and break ins and stuff. So it was a different it was a different, you know, atmosphere. So looking back on that, I had a thought about that, then I probably would have said, Oh, no, I don't want to move back to Detroit at all. But one of my children was saying, you know, they didn't want to come come here. They wanted to stay in Vermont, but trying to keep the family together. And my husband wanted to wanted to be back here because of his parents. And they were getting older and he wanted to be around for them. And we made the transition and came back to Detroit in November of 1997. And. And although. I feel like I had I really thought about it, I wouldn't have moved back, even though even though I say that I have. A lot of accomplished a lot here in Michigan. I made more money in my job, at my job here in Michigan than I did in Vermont. And that and more than I think I would have been making in Vermont because of the industry. You know, there was a lack of it, you know, And then. I've made a lot more accomplishments on my own. I've gotten divorced. I bought a house. My kids are doing well. I'm I'm happiest. I think that being in Michigan, I was afforded the ability to do things because it's bigger, because I have more support than I than I did, than I would have in Vermont. I made a lot of accomplishments. So. Everything happens for a reason. And, you know, Vermont was wonderful and it was a great time in my life. And I think that it was it also helped build a base for my children. And, you know, and being here is has been you know, has been a different part of my life. But it's been a growing part, you know, and the next phase is Tennessee. I'll be moving to Tennessee in June.
Carmen Byrd: So it's wonderful. Yes. Okay. So thinking about moving back from Vermont to Detroit, do you have any regrets or anything?
LaDonna Byrd: I'm going to say no. I'm going to say no to that because I feel that with all the things that I have gone through, they have made me the person that I am today. And I like who I am.
Carmen Byrd: Okay. All right. And do you have any worries? No. I'm on the line in the future or anything.
LaDonna Byrd: Yes, I do. I do. My major my my major worry and I guess is is because my parents died when I was so young. And I have grown up without my. I'm sorry. But I've grown up without my parents. And I had to deal with everything that I've had to deal with throughout my life without without being and without being able to talk to them and get advice from them and and have them in my life. So. My biggest worry Is for my children. I want to be there for them. I want to be in their lives. I want to be there to see them graduate from high school and college. I want to see my kids get married. I want to be there to be supportive. I want them to be able to come and talk to me. And and and because my parents were killed when I. Excuse me when I was so young, that my biggest worry is that something would happen to me and I won't be here for my children. And so. What I do is I try to instill in their independence. But at the same time, I've tried instilling them that I want them to be supportive of each other because I know my mother and my.
Carmen Byrd: Brother and my sister have.
LaDonna Byrd: Supported me immensely. And if it weren't for their, I wouldn't be. You know, a lot of I wouldn't have been able to accomplish a lot of things. So I want them to be there for each other. And and I try to let them know every day that I love them. And I give them hugs and I give them kisses because if something happens, I want them to to remember that. I want them to remember how much I love them and and that I will always love them.
Carmen Byrd: Are you okay? Yeah. Okay, So today we talked about where you were born in Detroit, Michigan, and what your childhood was like. Fine. Riding bikes with friends, playing stuff that's about your parents and where they worked. Father was an electrician, and your mother was a dietician and used to wear your feet. She came home and sit, On Dad's lap peacfully. You know he was hungry. Talked about the 70s when you were a teenager and going to school and having your first boyfriend and talked about marriage and how that was and how out of a marriage you had five wonderful children and how you moved to Vermont, mainland Vermont for ten years. And it was, you know, a nice experience and a lot safer for you in the family. Yes. Yes. And we talked we also talked about how you moved the family back to Detroit and how it was completely different from Vermont and how it affected everybody and everything. And you also stated that you have no regrets with anything that you've done. Okay. And I know is there anything else that you want to talk about today? Anything else on your mind? Oh, no. I see you've.
LaDonna Byrd: Got basically all of it.
Carmen Byrd: Okay. Well, I would like to thank you and participating in this interview, and we really appreciate it. Okay. Well, you're very welcome. And I'm glad I could be a part.
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Title
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LaDonna Byrd, March 27th, 2008
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview, LaDonna Byrd recalls her encounters of living in the city. Byrd tells the stories of what life was like growing up in Detroit.
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
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Detroit Historical Society
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en-US
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Detroit Journeys by Marygrove College
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
Rights
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Detroit Historical Society
Language
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en-US
Creator
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Marygrove College
Oral History
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Narrator/Interviewee's Name
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Laretta Torrence
Brief Biography
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Laretta Torrence grew up in Detroit’s Black Bottom neighborhood where she remained until she relocated to Ethel. Torrence went on to get married and have two children.
Interview Place
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Detroit, MI
Date
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12/13/2009
Interview Length
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29:15
Transcription
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Laretta Torrence: 15 questions.
Mr. Keyes: Today is Saturday.
Laretta Torrence: Their Sunday.
Mr. Keyes: Today is Sunday.
Laretta Torrence: December 13th.
Mr. Keyes: December 13th. That's correct. 2009 2009. The informed consent has been signed. This is the very twins. How are you doing?
Laretta Torrence: I'm fine. Mr. Keyes. How are you?
Mr. Keyes: I'm good. I'm. I appreciate you. Allow me. In an interview today, Ms. Torrence, can you tell me a little bit about where you were born or where your parents?
Laretta Torrence: I was born 19th July fourth, 1930 at Herman Kiefer Hospital, Detroit, Michigan. My mother was born in Mississippi and my father was born in Arkansas.
Mr. Keyes: And when did they come to Detroit, Michigan?
Laretta Torrence: They came to Detroit, Michigan, probably about in 1925.
Mr. Keyes: And that's when they moved the Blackbottom, what is known as a Blackbottom.
Laretta Torrence: We lived on Canfield in Russell, 1456, East Canfield. I had one brother and one sister. I was the youngest of the three siblings. My father worked for the WPA. My mother was a homemaker. We went to Detroit Public Schools.
Mr. Keyes: How was schools in those days?
Laretta Torrence: Schools were good in those days. We went to school with black children and white children. The teachers seemed very interested in the students. My first grade school was Campbell on the Lower East Side. It went to the sixth grade, and then I went to Russell on Russell and and Elliott for approximately a year. Then I went to Garfield Intermediate on Russell and Frederick. I graduated from the eighth grade at Garfield. Then I went on to Northeastern High on Wine and Grandy, where I graduated in 19 and January 1948. At that time, my parents had moved to southwest Detroit on a street named South Ethel so we could have a better life. That my parents bought this home. Brand new $6,000 built from the ground up.
Mr. Keyes: 6000 and.
Laretta Torrence: $6,000. The house payment was $48 a month. We had three bedrooms, living room, dining room, kitchen, full basement and backyard. I continue to go to Northeastern High because I like the school, like the children that I went with. I graduated, like I said, in January 1948. After graduation, I got a job at a car and since elevator operator briefly in 1940. In August, I married Hermann Keyes. I was to take the stand. Stan and Rod were born. Rod was born in 1949. Stand brother. He was born in 1949 and all. I didn't continue to work because I needed to stay home and take care of my children. Stan was born in 1951, in July also.
Mr. Keyes: Stan. Tell me about their name. Stan.
Laretta Torrence: Stan. Keith. Stanley. Douglas. Keyes. We didn't have television in those days. We only had radio. And while I was home as a parent, I used to listen to what they called back in those days and still do the soaps, soap operas, Soap operas. And I got Stan's name off the soap operas. I got this name from my neighbor. She was. Go ahead, tell she's going to have a boy. But she had a girl. She will name her boy Rodney. But I name my son, Rodney. They also went to the Detroit Public Schools. Oh, I don't remember the name of the schools that they went to, but I know they went to the Detroit Public School because we couldn't afford private schools.
Mr. Keyes: No. I also. You say you were born on Canfield and Russell. That was considered a black bottom.
Laretta Torrence: Yes.
Mr. Keyes: Tell me about growing up in black Bottom.
Laretta Torrence: Well, growing up in black bottom for me wasn't so bad because my parents only let me go for certain distance on Main Street and Black Bottom was Hastings Street. We only went there on Saturday night, along with going to the Eastern market on Saturday evening to do our grocery shopping. And when I went on Hazel Street, that was with my mother always.
Mr. Keyes: When you say your parents let you go very far, what about entertainment? Socializing at nighttime?
Laretta Torrence: We didn't go out at night. We had to be home when the streetlights came on. I had one brother and one sister and we had to be in a house when the street lights came on for a social life was concerned. We went to the movies on Sunday and we couldn't go to the movies if we didn't go to Sunday school.
Mr. Keyes: What was the movies like?
Laretta Torrence: The movies were fine. It wasn't many black people in movies in those days. It was all always all white. If it was a black person in a movie, they always played a part as a under educated person. Oh, they I don't know what you call them, but the part wasn't a major role.
Mr. Keyes: How did they make you feel? Growing up as a child.
Laretta Torrence: It didn't make me feel I didn't think. Not because I was a child. It didn't bother me at all, you know? I understand we had three shows and we went to on Hastings. One was the Wallace, where we attended most of the time. The other one was the castle. It was down on Hastings in the lower part of the city, and we couldn't go that far. The other was Warfield, and we my parents wouldn't let us go that far. We attended, and the show was ten set back in those days. Sometime my parents couldn't afford the dime, so we would go to Sunday school. When I come back home, we play outside. Jump Rope, Hop Scotch content. We played with white children. We had white children as neighbors. Sometimes we fight with anger. They call us a [Unrecognized]. We call them a hawk. But the next day we were playing a game.
Mr. Keyes: That sounds good and sounds good. You say your parents good enough sometimes. Couldn't afford to let you go to the show. And the show was only a dime. Was your dad working?
Laretta Torrence: My dad worked for the W, what they call the WPA. It belonged to something that belonged to the city. He poured cement as a Detroit zoo. He poured cement at the Belle Isle. And rather than be on a public assistance, this is what the kind of work that he had to do. We were never hungry. Everything was extremely cheap back in those days, as I can remember. The house on Canfield, where I was born in the rent was $20 a month. My dad was able to save money from the money that he worked from at the zoo and at Belle Isle to buy a home on the south At home. And that's when we moved.
Mr. Keyes: Now, he said his house in Black Bottom on Canfield, he said, only had one bedroom.
Laretta Torrence: One bedroom.
Mr. Keyes: And there were.
Laretta Torrence: Three children. My mother and father.
Mr. Keyes: And your mother and father?
Laretta Torrence: Yes.
Mr. Keyes: Oh, you guys live in the same room?
Laretta Torrence: We had always slept in the same room. My mother and father slept in the living room.
Mr. Keyes: I came by the bathrooms and.
Laretta Torrence: We had one bathroom and it was in the kitchen. The landlord. It was a large kitchen. Extremely large. I'd say about 18 by 16 to part of the kitchen and made up. First of all, we only had a toilet. But I guess he realized we needed a bathtub because we used to take a bath in Atlanta on Saturday night behind the stove in the living room. That's all because we had to heat water on this stove to put in this tube.
Mr. Keyes: I see.
Laretta Torrence: So they put it back to part of the kitchen and put a bath tub and a hot water tank and a toilet. There wasn't any baseball. And then we got able to take a bath and a bath tub, and we were so excited.
Mr. Keyes: So then you guys were taken baths every day?
Laretta Torrence: No, Maybe three times a week.
Mr. Keyes: That's it. Okay. That's an improvement.
Laretta Torrence: Yeah.
Mr. Keyes: Okay, so when you moved out from.
Laretta Torrence: Canfield and Russel.
Mr. Keyes: Canfield and Russel to.
Laretta Torrence: Ethel to.
Mr. Keyes: Ethel, you had running water and bathrooms and all the facilities.
Laretta Torrence: Good facilities.
Mr. Keyes: Okay, let's go back to the black bottom for entertainment, like long weekends, because I was told that there were. What was the name of those things? And I was down there. But not the flats. But the Graystone.
Laretta Torrence: The Graystone Ballroom.
Mr. Keyes: Yes.
Laretta Torrence: It was on Woodward and Canfield. I my sister went more than I did go. She was the oldest. We only had dancing on the Monday night for the blacks. We had the big name bands come Duke Ellington, Lionel Hampton, Count Basie. But our day was Mondays. My sister would go, but I was the younger sibling, so I wasn't allowed to go. She was four years old and I was at that time she had a boyfriend so he would take her to the dance. The dances were from 9 to 2.
Mr. Keyes: Some things they only on Mondays. Or did that mean the white kids went to the other day?
Laretta Torrence: I don't know.
Mr. Keyes: You don't know?
Laretta Torrence: I don't know.
Mr. Keyes: But on Mondays, the black and teens will come.
Laretta Torrence: No, that's right.
Mr. Keyes: Okay. That sounds interesting. It's interesting because your days out in South Ethel, what was it like out there compared to.
Laretta Torrence: It was nice.
Mr. Keyes: For.
Laretta Torrence: You? We had a lawn. We had flowers. We had clotheslines in the backyard to hang your clothes in the summertime. And we owned Canfield and Russell. We had my mother would wash and hang the clothes in the house in the living room at night. But it wasn't any other place to hang them.
Mr. Keyes: We had no backyard.
Laretta Torrence: We had no backyard. So things changed. And the neighborhood was nice. We lived we were living between E course. Lincoln Park. River Rouge. Oh. Allen Park in that area out there.
Mr. Keyes: Okay. So when you say in black brown, you have any grass in a neighborhood was it was bad?
Laretta Torrence: And it was just something like a slum area for black folks. They were most black folks were extremely poor. And if one person had an automobile, he would share that automobile with all the black folks. If he wanted to go somewhere, they would take you. Gas was not expensive. You get five gallons of gas, $1 back in those days and you get to maybe two and a half. You said this is true. That's true. So you gave the man that he said, my purse, would we have somewhere to go? Like to the doctor, to the hospital? They demanded that he take you, but that was hard to come by sometime.
Mr. Keyes: Really. Pretty soon. I was a lot of money.
Laretta Torrence: A lot of money.
Mr. Keyes: So was it?
Laretta Torrence: Food was not expensive I can remember my mother. Buying greens, 3 pounds for dime. What can you get now? For a dime.
Mr. Keyes: Not a lot
Laretta Torrence: Not a lot. Ice cream cone. You get two for a nickel. What? Could you give her? A nickel.
Mr. Keyes: Now what about the crime? how was the crime?. Was it high? Low? Who committed the crime was white. Black?
Laretta Torrence: It wasn't any crime that I can remember. You know, we didn't know what a locker door was. You could sit on your porch all night long. Nobody bother you. You can leave home and leave the door open. Nobody broke in because we were all in the same boat. Nothing.
Mr. Keyes: Every man.
Laretta Torrence: Everybody was.
Mr. Keyes: Drunk. Everybody was.
Laretta Torrence: Equal. Even the white folks were struggling, just like we were. Of course, they lived next door to us. If they had had any more, they wouldn't have been there.
Mr. Keyes: What about the police department? Did you see a lot of them? They come around. Did they treat you guys any different?
Laretta Torrence: We had the police department was majority white. They would speak to the children, play in, you know, on the sidewalk. You know, they walk a beat more than they do now, you know, and they had them in the car, you know. But what about I can't remember seeing a black police officer, not in my childhood. You know.
Mr. Keyes: The business class went up to the fire department. If there was a fire, do they come and turn up with the fire?
Laretta Torrence: Yes, they arrived in time. They were all fired. So city duties were concerned they did that, you know.
Mr. Keyes: That's interesting. Interesting. So your father worked for the DPA. Your mother stayed home and took it out of.
Laretta Torrence: WPA.
Mr. Keyes: WPA. Thank you. And your mother? Stay home and take care of the house.
Laretta Torrence: Right.
Mr. Keyes: Okay. And you guys left Black Bottom in 48.
Laretta Torrence: 1948. I graduated from Northeastern in January 48th, and we moved to South Ethel that summer.
Mr. Keyes: What about college? Do you ever think about going to college?
Laretta Torrence: There wasn't any money to go to college. And far as grants and loans like these students out now, if there were any, the black kids didn't know about it.
Mr. Keyes: And we didn't know about it.
Laretta Torrence: We didn't know about it. We didn't know how to apply. There was nobody to help us assist us in doing that, cause there wasn't many black people in that. And those positions to help black children and white had those jobs and they would help their own.
Mr. Keyes: I see. So when you guys moved to Southwest Detroit, how did life changed for you other than we had a bigger house with running facility, running water and upgraded facilities, had a life change for you?
Laretta Torrence: Well, I got married, for one thing.
Mr. Keyes: Now, when you got married.
Laretta Torrence: 19, I got married for one for one thing. And I began to branch out more because I had more money. You know, I could take my children to the movies. We'd have to kids the car and go downtown to the movies. But we could do that. Movies. But with the price, there was 75 cent out there. And it wasn't a neighborhood movie cause the neighborhood was just beginning to get built, though. So we would come downtown to the docks. We'd come downtown the jail Hudson's and to see Santa Claus. And there wasn't any malls. We had a downtown, a real downtown. You had Gail Hudson, you had current, you had crawlers, you had a Woolworth's, you had Crosskeys, you had stores riding the bus wasn't but six cent. So it wasn't very expensive to catch the bus. And I think children, well, certainly they were free. So we would come downtown and you just walk and look. They called it window shopping. You wouldn't buy, but the kids would be happy just to go down there as long as well as the parents. Then you come back home.
Mr. Keyes: And 19, you got married. Did your husband live with you in the new house?
Laretta Torrence: Yes, because my parents was in the house and he moved in with us because he lived on fourth. And he said that and that was a movement over there was that just had left that area.
Mr. Keyes: So that was Black bottom, Yeah. Herdman Live.
Laretta Torrence: Right.
Mr. Keyes: Okay. So he.
Laretta Torrence: He worked at bird wheel manufacturing company.
Mr. Keyes: Budd Wheel.
Laretta Torrence: B-U-D-D W-H-E-E-L Manufacturing company.
Mr. Keyes: Okay so he was and he will you met him when you were living in Black Bottom.
Laretta Torrence: Yes.
Mr. Keyes: Okay. And you got married in 19 and he moved in with you.
Laretta Torrence: Blu ray with me and my parents in Southwest Detroit.
Mr. Keyes: Okay. And you were 19 then? Were you working?
Laretta Torrence: No, I was. And I had my children shortly after I got the job as an elevator operator. I stopped work because I had my children.
Mr. Keyes: Okay. So it's kind of like when you your mother was in black Bottom. She stayed at home with the children.
Laretta Torrence: Yes.
Mr. Keyes: And your dad raised I mean, they work in WPA.
Laretta Torrence: Yeah.
Mr. Keyes: So. Okay, I understand. So you got married and you stayed at home, and the husband was working. Where?
Laretta Torrence: But we'll.
Mr. Keyes: But we'll hang up.
Laretta Torrence: They weren't paying a lot of money in those days at the factories like they do now. But you could live out of it because expenses were very low. Anytime you buy a brand new house from the ground up for $48 a month, you know, food was not very high and clothes were not very high at Christmas time or Easter time while you were going out. I'd take my two my two boys downtown. They could get a pair of stride white shoes for $2.98. That was.
Mr. Keyes: Cheap.
Laretta Torrence: All for time, you know. So things weren't high like it is. But when World War Two broke out, expenses went up.
Mr. Keyes: Expenses and went up when the war broke out.
Laretta Torrence: People got jobs. People got jobs in factories.
Mr. Keyes: Did you get a job?
Laretta Torrence: No, not in the factory.
Mr. Keyes: What about a car? Did you have a car?
Laretta Torrence: No, I didn't. My parents didn't have a car.
Mr. Keyes: What about you?
Laretta Torrence: My husband had a car. He had a Chevrolet. We didn't buy new equipment. I can't remember the year, but it wasn't new. But I didn't know how to drive. But we would go to the supermarket. We go to Belle Isle. Places like that, you know, go to the luge park, which wasn't very far from where we live, you know, and take the kids a swing and play on the weekends, you know. And. It wasn't very many things that I knew what to do with. That was I led a sheltered life. My parents were strict when I was coming up and I led a sheltered life. So when I kept my kids close to me when I was home, the other kids in the neighborhood to play, they grew up with other children. And if you I don't I can't remember where we would take the children with us or not to these places.
Mr. Keyes: Your dad, poured cement for Belle Isle, did you go out there the time when your dad was working there?
Laretta Torrence: No. No, I didn't never visit when my dad was working now.
Mr. Keyes: What was Belle Isle like?
Laretta Torrence: It was fine, you know. It was okay. It was pretty. You weren't afraid to go out there at night. You could go out there and spend the night. The weather was hard because we didn't have no central air like they do now. You know, there wasn't any crime, you know, until later on. And then things got better for blacks, you know.
Mr. Keyes: How did thing go bad for blacks?
Laretta Torrence: Well, crime, I guess that's when Drew started appearing. I don't know. But things got bad, you know, So we stopped going out that much, you know, going to Bel Air. You know, there was a certain area, Belle Isle, that was called [Unrecognized] Beale, where all the young people hung out and it wasn't a place for little children. So we stopped going there on the weekends for a ride. You know.
Mr. Keyes: Where there where people in Bel Air as well.
Laretta Torrence: Oh, yes. It was more white there. It was black. So the whites had more automobiles and the blacks there.
Mr. Keyes: So when you guys were there together, Was there ever any conflicts.
Laretta Torrence: Not when I was there, it was it was peaceful. The kids would play in the water. They'd be on the swings, you know, and in the dark would come home. You know, He said, all your porch talk to the neighbors. And Ethel, we lived on Ethel between Autodrive and Salyer, and it was a black neighborhood, you know, And it was quiet. It was nice. It was just ten steps above black bottom.
Mr. Keyes: Ten steps above ten.
Laretta Torrence: Steps above black bar.
Mr. Keyes: How do you mean? They didn't tell us, but we were better.
Laretta Torrence: Better, better, much better.
Mr. Keyes: There were grocery stores and things of that nature that you can go to.
Laretta Torrence: Yes.
Mr. Keyes: So what about the Eastern market? Do you ever go back down there?
Laretta Torrence: No, we didn't go back down the eastern market. That was too far.
Mr. Keyes: Too far.
Laretta Torrence: To bring groceries home because we had stores like the AB. They've gone out to be they've been gone for years. But yes, stores like AB and Kroger in the area where I live. So we shop there, you know. It was a better life.
Mr. Keyes: And it's interesting. Interesting. Kroger. Kroger still exists today.
Laretta Torrence: Exist today, but AB is gone.
Mr. Keyes: A lot of your friends from Black Bottom, did you ever see them again? Have you moved away?
Laretta Torrence: No. Everybody went their own way. Some people maybe have went out of town, you know, to another city. I don't know. You know, But the kids that I graduated from high school with, I didn't see them anymore because I moved away from that area. And most of them, they stayed in that area or they went somewhere else. They maybe went to Chicago, I don't know, you know, but I never saw him again. You know.
Mr. Keyes: When in certain areas in the city where only blacks live and only I think whites live when you was child, when you were in Ethel
Laretta Torrence: When I lived only.
Mr. Keyes: Yes.
Laretta Torrence: It was whites up there, but not on my street. They were black, some of us. And when we started moving out there, they put aside their window house for sale. They wanted to get away. But we lived in black Bottom. They were poor, just like we were, so they couldn't get away.
Mr. Keyes: So it didn't matter.
Laretta Torrence: So it didn't matter because they didn't have no more than we did.
Mr. Keyes: So what you're saying is the West began to move out and the blacks began to move in.
Laretta Torrence: Right. Right. And the area became all black. They had to build so many homes for sale till they had to build another school. There were so many black children. But it was nice, you know. They had one school called Blind, all visible in Fourth Street. I think that's where Stan and Rod went to. When they first started the school. And I'd walk them up there every day and pick them up when school was out, you know. But it was so many children because the area was beginning with building new homes out there, like the home that I was liberated. My father both. And the people were buying them cause they were not expensive. You could put $500 down on the house, which you cannot do now, and move in. And you have people like I say, it would be 48, $50 a month. What can you buy now for that? Nothing.
Mr. Keyes: This is true. This is true. So as you look back over the years and you see when you moved from Canfield and Russell to southwest Detroit and you noticed that the white people who live there prior to you, people moving in, these guys moving out, did it become another black bottom?
Laretta Torrence: No, in a sense, no, it did not, because it was a different era. It was entirely a different era. People had jobs. And black bottom. You did not have a job for sale in the factory or for the city. But people had jobs. People would take those city the test for the city or the state or whatever. And they were hiring black in the fire department there and the police department. And that made it better. I can feel they were doing that.
Mr. Keyes: And this was before the war on Canfield? Yeah, it was.
Laretta Torrence: Started in December 1941. And we moved all Ethel 45 or 46, something like that, you know.
Mr. Keyes: And as you say, this opened a door for many jobs.
Laretta Torrence: Right. Right.
Mr. Keyes: Opportunities for black people.
Laretta Torrence: Right. To advance.
Mr. Keyes: For advance. Okay. And we started seeing black police officers.
Laretta Torrence: Right.
Mr. Keyes: And when I came back, things started getting better for blacks.
Laretta Torrence: Right.
Mr. Keyes: What about the surrounding areas? You said William Allen Park and Lincoln Park and River Rouge. Where are you allowed to go there?
Laretta Torrence: Well, we walked in course to the cleaners, which is one more two blocks away. Oh, to the barber shop. To the beauty shop. But we had to ride the car to go to Lincoln Park to the store, because that's where. And that wasn't over five blocks away. But you can't walk five blocks and come back with groceries. So you take your car and a neighbor that didn't have a car, we'd all ride together and get groceries. We had a neighbor who was doing what they call mom and pop stores. Black people, you know, And you go there and you buy your stuff during the week. If you run out, you know, get a loaf of bread or a bottle of milk. And back in the day, we had the milk man would come and put milk in line for you on the side of the house. There's something else on the house. Call a milk door. The milk man would put milk in. It always faded away. And at all times, for one, you know, it was most popular, you know, gray milk and orange juice and whatever you needed, you would put a note in the milk bottle, you know? And you had a man come around with good vegetables, fresh vegetables, maybe 2 or 3 times a week with a truck, and the neighbors would purchase things off of him during the week that you needed, you know, fruits and vegetables.
Mr. Keyes: Okay. You said you had a milkman that would come by and deliver milk to you?
Laretta Torrence: Yes.
Mr. Keyes: And you had a thing. I want to tell you how we put milk in.
Laretta Torrence: I've got it in the door. It wasn't a big door. It was a small door. And he would open this little door, we call it the milk chute will blend in, and you put your milk in there and he would put down the bottles and they would take the bottles and he leave the milk for the children out.
Mr. Keyes: Okay. Okay. How is the entertainment at home? TV and radio?
Laretta Torrence: Well, we didn't have a TV when we first moved on, but eventually we got a TV when we had one. And it didn't stay on all night like these TVs do now. You didn't have all these channels. You had two, four, seven, nine. That was it. Okay. And they went off at a certain time, like you always got the news at 6:00 and even at 12:00. And that's when the young children come home for lunch and they will see Soupy Sales. He would come on 1130 or 12:00. And that's when he became popular. Soupy Sales.
Mr. Keyes: Okay. And after TV went off and nine, what did you guys do? Let them go to bed. There was no other entertainment. Like a radio. Radio show.
Laretta Torrence: You had the radio, but it was time to go to bed at 9:00. It was time to put the children to bed and the parents would leave. But the children, to be able to sit on the porch with the other in the summertime, you know, and talk to the neighbors and so forth, so forth, you know. In the wintertime, you go to you build a house and you go to bed also because the TV would be gone unless you want to listen to the radio.
Mr. Keyes: Okay. So when you guys drove to the surrounding community like Eagle.
Laretta Torrence: On eight, are we.
Mr. Keyes: Having a party or things like that? Well, these people way that you encountered.
Laretta Torrence: Yes.
Mr. Keyes: Was there any.
Laretta Torrence: Problems? No.
Mr. Keyes: They just look at you and.
Laretta Torrence: We just beat you. How are you, sir? Fine, ma'am. How are you? And you go on about your business.
Mr. Keyes: So this was the beginning of integration, so to speak.
Laretta Torrence: Well, I don't know whether black people lived in those in those in Lincoln Park or not. Allen Park.
Mr. Keyes: Okay. Okay, So it seems like you came a long way. You know, you come from the black bottom of Canfield and Russell. They moved to southwest Detroit and in 1948, and that was right after the war. So it was it was silly. It was really exciting. Time for you after you moved out to Black Bottom.
Laretta Torrence: It was different. Really different. A new experience. A new life.
Mr. Keyes: New life. Okay. Mr. Wallace, Well, I want to thank you for interviewing me. Let me let me interview you today, and I really appreciate it.
Laretta Torrence: Thank you. Mr. Keyes.
Mr. Keyes: You're welcome. So I move my leg in time.
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Title
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Laretta Torrence, December 13th, 2009
Description
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In this interview, Laretta Torrence talks about her life and growing up in a Detroit neighborhood.
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Detroit Historical Society
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Detroit Historical Society
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en-US
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Title
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Hustle: Black Entrepreneurship in Detroit
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
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Detroit Historical Society
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English-US
Oral History
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Narrator/Interviewee's Name
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Ali Omar
Brief Biography
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Ali Omar started his business in 2014, a dream he had aspired to achieve since he was 16 years old.
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Billy Wall-Winkel
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Detroit, MI
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9/2/2022
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31:49
Transcriptionist
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Taylor Claybrook
Transcription
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BWW [00:00:00] All right. Awesome. Awesome. Hello, my name is Billy Wall-Winkel. This interview is for the Detroit Historical Society's Hustle Project. Today is Friday, September 2nd, 2022. And we're in Detroit, Michigan.
AO [00:00:12] Detroit, Michigan. There we go.
BWW [00:00:14] And I'm sitting down with Ali Omar, if you please spell
your name for me.
AO [00:00:18] Yep. A L I O M A R. That is my artist name. My last name is different, but that's what I go by.
BWW [00:00:26] Cool, cool, cool thank you so much for sitting down with me today.
AO [00:00:28] Of course. Glad to be here.
BWW[00:00:30] And congrats again on being an honoree.
AO [00:00:33] Thank you. Thank you. Yeah it's kind of crazy though when I found there was 800 businesses that made me even more honored to be a part of it.
BWW [00:00:40] So when did you first hear about the hustle?
AO [00:00:44] I would say maybe a month and a half prior. I got an email about it and my business partner reached out and she said, I'm going to nominate you and that she’d send it to different family members and things like that. I didn't think that many people voted for me though. That's still like a mystery right now, that kind of know who actually voted for me.
BWW [00:01:07] Nice, nice. So let's do some like quick qualified questions. What year did you open for? First off, what is the name of your business.
AO [00:01:17] The name the business is GODNII, as in God and I.
BWW [00:01:24] And then what you did you start?
AO [00:01:26] Officially started in 2014 on paper with the government. I had the idea since I was 16. The idea literally came in a dream. And in this dream I was told why God created me, which was to be an inventor. And after that dream, I start to see all these downloads of different ideas of things to make, and the glasses were the one that stuck out the most. The original concept was asking for a tech frame, a futuristic frame, and…you know, I was 16, so I just wrote it down, you know, and I mailed this letter back to myself, like a like a personal patent. And when I was 21, that same voice inspired me.
[00:02:17] *someone enters the podcast room on accident and interrupts for a moment*
AO [00:02:33] No. When I was 21, God spoke to me and told me so He said, Don't be comfortable where you are, work on the vision. And I heard the word vision. I knew I
needed to start working on this company. And yeah, so it was like a five year gap period in between. But 2014 is when I officially started the business.
BWW [00:02:54] Did a part of you go “glasses, really?”?
AO [00:02:58] Um, kind of. Sort of. But the glasses that I envisioned there were like this technology in them. So I was more in like, awe, you know, because I couldn't believe that I had this idea, you know, to make this product. And so our idea was less. Get some skin in the game and start producing, you know, regular glasses. And brand ourself as a eyewear company and then continue to grow and build out in the tech space. But yeah.
BWW [00:03:29] So what was the process like for you getting started? Like, aside from the vision, aside from getting your own passion going, what were your next steps going forward?
AO [00:03:39] Um, so this is the most difficult thing I've ever done in my life. When I met my business partner, that was in 2013. So a year prior to me actually forming my, my business. And, you know, I shared the idea with it and I'm like, yeah, the name of the company is Prince Ali, Inc. And she hated the name. And so she was like, you need to go back to the drawing board and pray and figure out what the name of this company is. And so, you know, I listened to her, I started, you know, kind of like thinking about some names and anyway, long story short. I started praying. I said, Well, if this idea came from God, then God must have an answer. So I sat in my room and I wrote down names and long story short God and I came because God told me this vision was for the world. It wasn't just for me. And. I think I spent the first 2 to 3 years doing research and development. I was putting about 5 hours a week into the company I wasn't actively working on it. I had a 9 to 5. By year three, I was like, okay, I need to make this happen. And so I started going and talking to jewelry companies, different manufacturers in Michigan, trying to find someone who dealt with small parts to make this product. So I had one company in Garden City who was actually going to build me out a room and get equipment and help me to actually make this product. But I didn't had the money, of course, you know. But they were very interested in the concept. And what I was going to make. I went to a jewelry company in Ann Arbor, very well known. I can't remember the name now, but I showed them what I was working on. They were interested, but they're like, We can't make something like this. And so. I was like, you know, my wheels kept spinning, I never gave up. We got us a room inside of a school in southwest Detroit through O'Connor Realty, so shout out to do. And that gave us our first space to start prototyping. That's what we kind of we took a step back and say, okay, instead of focusing on all the technology, let's, you know, work on a frame we can make with our hands. And then I started work with manufacturers still with a lot of money. They wouldn't give me creative control as much as I wanted on a product. And it was very frustrating. I had a lot of prestigious people look at what I wanted to do. One from…I probably shouldn’t say their name, one from a very big beverage company. I went in his house. His apartment downtown here awards all over the walls. I was super excited. It's $1,000,000,000 company.And he thought my idea was the worst idea he ever heard and that he wouldn't spend any more time working on it. He wouldn’t spend another dime working on it. I want to make a pair of glasses and they're going to drop out of someone's hand and break all over the ground. I'll never, ever forget those words. But he saw he saw the tech frame I was working on. And he just thought, you can't do this. And my friend introduced me to him thinking he was going to like help push me forward and like, you know, do the exact opposite. So I'm going through a lot of crazy stuff. I've lost business relationships. I've had people steal money taking advantage of me because I was young and ambitious. So a lot of things that could have made me give up,
but I never did. So yeah, that's a little bit of what the journey has been
like, a lot of ups and downs.
BWW [00:06:54] What is the name of your business partner?
AO [00:06:56] Her name is Carrie. Carrie Roberts. She's in real estate development.
BWW [00:07:01] Gotcha. So you mentioned that you never forgot what he said, but. What steps after that like did it affect you for a minute or did you just plow right through?
AO [00:07:13] Through all of the hardships and things like that?
BWW[00:07:14] Well, mainly the one critique.
AO [00:07:18] Oh, the gentleman who…oh, I left a little discouraged because, again, this industry doesn't exist here. Eyewear manufacturing. There's like a few families who make glasses for themselves, but they won't make it for other people. So France is the headquarters in the world for eyewear making. Then you have China, of course you have Japan below so surely this industry exists overseas. So I met someone who had worked internationally and I thought at least he can point me in the right direction because there is not even a college course on this, you know what I mean? And so it was very discouraging to meet somebody who I felt was like high up person who had achieved some success to tell me that I can't do something. And I probably was about 23, 24 at the time with what has happened. So very discouraged when that happened. But then, you know, I've been through a lot in my life. I'm not gonna say a lot of things in case my mom hears this just but. I don't really give up on anything. You know, if anything, it gave me more of a drive, you know, to prove myself right now, to prove them wrong, because I didn't want my energy to come from him. It had to come from me. You know what I mean? Mm hmm. So.
BWW [00:08:35] So you, you mentioned that you had this the space in southwest and you you pulled back from the tech focus and just focus on the glasses.
AO [00:08:44] Right. Because I knew the tech focus would be more like raising capital, you know, maybe crowdfunding, bringing a lot of people in a room. And I was I was nowhere near that point. And I didn't know, I didn't even know the meter scale of business back day. And people were asking, so how are you going to scale your business? I had no idea what they were talking about. So all the business lingo and terms I felt very small in rooms because I just had no idea what these people were talking about. And it took me a long time. I started reading books and looking at business terms to try to understand what I was doing. And so I had to become a businessman. You know what I mean? Which was also a really big part of my journey. A lot of people. A very good friend of mine, Eric Thomas, who's a national speaker now. He was a part of this journey when I first got started because I would tell him as I were designing, I'm going to make these glasses every time I would see him, he would say, Where are the glasses? And I'm like, I'm working on it. So for years, I would say probably five or six years. Every time he saw me, he asked me that question and it gave me more drive and it made me, you know, think different. And my biggest break was in 2020 before COVID. And I asked myself, what can I do today with the people I know with the money I have not if I had $1,000,000, not if I had the investors, not if I was perfect. But what can I do today? And that's what really changed
my life. And I started doing more of what I could do instead of focusing on what I can't do because I don't have resources.
BWW [00:10:19] And so in 2020, what did you decide to do?
AO[00:10:22] In 2020, I reached out to Architectural Salvage Warehouse in Detroit, Michigan. I actually worked for them right before COVID and. A good friend of mine, Chris. He taught at CCS (College for Creative Studies) as a designer, you know, professor, but he taught design. He's a designer, even with this company. And I worked for him. And so I called him and said, Hey, I need you to work with me on this project. And so we spent about six months prototyping glasses and took the entire summer for 2020. And I don't know how much material we went through, how many frames we went through, and we still didn't have it right, but we had more than what we had before I went back to the pony ride when they were still on Grand River. And I went in one day and I said, I've been trying to get in contact with you all for a year now. No one contacted me. No one has responded to my email that I need a space to be able to work, and they got me right in. And so now I had a space where I could work and do all the prototyping and which is a blessing. I'm still in that building now. And so, yeah, Chris from ASW was a huge part of, you know, where I am now. All my mentors, man, there's a lot of people, I’m not gonna start namedropping, but during that time, you know, we prototype for six months, we still didn't have it right. None of our frames would stay together. The arms would come off when we thought they would stay together. Going into 2021, we're like deep into COVID. We started looking at different hinges to keep our arms together like we needed. We needed machinery. We needed machines that cost thousands just to put the lenses in the frame. These are all things I didn't have access to. And so with little money, I can make about every machine, one by one, to make a pair of frames. So it took me another year before I could afford to even buy those machines to make them. End of 2021, we had one of our biggest debuts at the Dose Collective downtown with T Campbell, who's an amazing friend. We had about 150 people there, people I'd never even met before in my life. It really changed my entire. I was in the back of the store putting glasses together to finish them so the models could walk out in the frame. And I think we had about 60 people buy tickets and I went out, there's 150 people there. And even then the glasses still weren't ready. Yeah, you could wear them, but they wouldn't stay together too long. So even that was frustrating. No one knew I was going through this. Everyone thought I had figured everything out and had a perfect running company. But in the back of my mind, the whole event, I'm trying to figure out what is my next step to make this happen. And so this year. 2022 in March, I made my first fully functional prototype that worked. I went through all the stress tests and make sure that it was stay together. And I had a young lady named Asia Pierson, who’s from Detroit. She's a singer, just signed to Eric Belanger and she wore my frames on tour and that got me so much traction and I started making custom glasses for people. So now we’re at 50 frames in just three months of our completely custom frames. I mean, just to even be sitting here is crazy because again, many people have no idea what we went through to make this happen. But a lot of good people are around us for sure.
BWW [00:13:52] Have you walked up and given Eric a pair of frames yet?
AO [00:13:57] Not yet. Oh. So his wife actually follows me on Instagram. Me and Eric haven’t personally talked, I've heard things through people, you know? That he said, but we never met. So waiting for that time to come for sure.
BWW [00:14:13] So you mentioned that after a few years of getting starting the company, you wanted to put more more focus on it. Did you stop your 9 to 5?
AO [00:14:24] Yeah. So I actually was an area manager in 2020 at a cell phone company and I was on salary making good money and they started shutting down stores. So the stores I was over began to shut down. They didn't give me the money that they promised they would pay me. So basically I was out of a job. And so I got, you know, a little bit of hope, you know, with the different loans that were available for COVID, like merchant had different things I had. So I was able to offload a little bit, you know, I mean, Rust Belt Market was a huge part of that. I had a mini store at the Rust Belt market in Ferndale. Which helped us continue to make money from our clothing. But yeah, it was tough I've been full time for the last two years. I have not had a 9 to 5. Most of the jobs I was applying to, they wanted you to have a vaccination. I'm not gonna get into that. So it was difficult. You know, all the skills I have, I will go to these places to try to use them. They're like, Well, you can't go if you don't have this. And if you don't have that. And so I was just like, okay, well, I want to put, you know, 60, 70 hours a week into my craft. And so that's what I've been doing the last two years..
BWW [00:15:39] Nice. Well, how did it feel for you turning your side hustle into your your main gig?
AO [00:15:45] Um, you know, when I, when I first started doing it to me was just a lot of work. You know? I mean, and the more I did it, the more I started to see the lives around me I was impacting. But even today, it's still kind of crazy when I meet people who are inspired. When I get DMs all the time from people from the companies I previously worked at. And I used to run my mouth and say, you know, what I had is I used to work at Nordstrom, I had a high top fade and I wore these big circle glasses. I looked like a clown when I look back on those those pictures, I look terrible. But I would tell all my customers about this company. I would tell them I actually one of my biggest clients, her name is Jamie. She works for Shinola. She bought a custom pair of frames that she was she was one of the main people. She waited. I mean, that was back in 2016, 2017. And she bought a pair of glasses five years later, you know what I mean? So the people who I'm surrounded by, they inspire me the most. They are the ones who kept me going. But I just never had an idea of how many people's lives I was impacting by never giving up. Hmm. You know, so, yeah, that's probably the best thing about what I do.
BWW [00:16:58] So now that you're up to 50 custom frames, you have orders coming in. It's not just you putting them together in a back room anymore, right?
AO [00:17:05] That's the crazy thing. So right now, I still do the majority of the frames. Actually, I built all 50 those frames with my own hands. And if I hadn’t done that, I wouldn't be where I am. So right now we're working on a build out of our warehouse right now to actually have, you know, train our artisans. My amazing team here, they're helping me more on the back end of the company. So all my digital, PR,marketing, they're incredible. There's, like, seven of us, so. But as far as the hands on side, that's something we're still working on. It is just it's a pain point, but we're working on it. We have eyewear shops right now who want to carry our brand. So we're working on those purchase orders to be able to get funding, to get additional equipment to hire people. So we're at a good space, you know? Also it’s like is growing pains, you know.
BWW [00:18:00] Is it I'm guessing it's added pressure and say like a bigger pain because you you're doing something that isn't typically done in Detroit.
AO [00:18:10] Yes. Not done Detroit. Not done in America. Not done by a black man who's 30 years old. Most of the people in the industry are Italian and French. And so I you know, I had I went to an event at the Detroit Opera House I designed for and the more I tell people that I own a manufacturing company, the more they were like. So you get the product and then you assemble them. They kept going around in manufacturing because no one believed that I actually manufactured the glasses. So I had to keep till now I actually manufacture the frame. Like I get the material, I cut the material, I put them together and it is just hard for them to believe. But yeah, we do, we do everything. So this is interesting, but it also is a part of the Detroit Hustle. It's like a lot of people here are self made and I feel like there's no better city to make these frames is there is a few companies that make glasses from like recycled materials, like you got Genesee and Flint, Michigan, which is a really dope company, I hope I can say dope on the microphone.
BWW [00:19:13] You can say dope.
AO [00:19:15] There's a few out of Chicago who make glasses out of like recycled wood. They upcycle and things like that. But full blown eyewear manufacturing, I haven't found one other than the small families who don't want to make them for other people. So my goal is to make my product and be branded, but also manufactured for people who want them for their own brands. Do private labeling for different eyewear shops around the country and to be a full blown out manufacturing company.
BWW [00:19:44] Do you find that there…Do you find that there's actually the added pressure also being from Detroit, when you're talking to these other people, like, do you find that there is an expectation that not only do Americans not do this, but Detroiters don't do this?
AO[00:19:59] Oh, yes, for sure. Because even myself I had to learn how to do it. I literally made my own manufacturing process, so even then, there's no blueprint for it.
BWW [00:20:09] Hmm.
AO[00:20:10] So, yeah, I would say 100%. There were so many people who inspire me were like DOC. Of course they got bought out, but DOC finding out they were from Michigan. Finding out that, you know SEE Optical was founded by the grandson of you know the DOC founder. SVS Vision is founded here. So we have a long eyewear history, just not manufacturing, you know. So I guess both sides. Yeah. Like, you know, I got to have a lot of hustle, but then there's also a lot of inspiration from, plus we’re Cartier City, you know, I mean, this is where Cartiers are talked about the most.
BWW [00:20:46] Hmm. Yeah. So. But. It is the goal to replace them if you're the next?
AO [00:20:58] That's crazy. What do you think? Well. I wouldn't say replace. I mean.
BWW [00:21:00] I think join the ranks.
AO [00:21:01] Yeah. Yeah, we are Detroit's eyewear. We're, like, GODNII of Detroit. Mm hmm. That's who we are. And many people don't know that yet, but they will know. So I feel like it might.
BWW [00:21:16] So you talk about the front end of it like the glasses and manufacturing some of the back end. So you have mentioned a couple of times now that you had to learn how to do a business plan, how to scale. What was your process for learning that? Did you take advantage of or were you able were you able to take advantage of Tech Town or any of the other options out there?
AO [00:21:34] Oh, no. I failed a lot. I didn't know Tech Town existed. I didn’t know design court existed. I didn't know any of the I didn't know pony ride existed. And so I failed a lot. I probably tried to launch this company four times. I tried back in 2016 in Birmingham, Michigan, not going to mention the company. But they were going to let me rent their space out and have an event that I found out they wanted to be open for business while I was having my event, which I wasn't okay with. So then they kept my deposit. They weren't giving my money back with a misunderstanding. It was a lot of money. And so me and owner didn't see eye to eye that I lost the money and I lost the opportunity to kind of introduce myself to the market. And so I walked away frustrated, you know, that someone would, you know, see that you were trying to do something right. And instead of saying, okay, hey, we had a misunderstanding, but let me still help you this way. They just want to keep my money, you know, not give me the opportunity. You know what I mean? So I went through a lot of things like that, and I didn't have people I didn't have a lot of people like. You know, a lot of my mentors are older. You know, they're up in Ann Arbor. One of my mentors is from England. And so they didn't know about all the resources that were here in Detroit. And at the time, I you know, at the time I was living out in Ann Arbor. So I moved back to Detroit recently, you know, which is where I'm from. And so I just didn't know. I just really didn't know about the resources. And so most of my I would say from 2014 to really 2019, that five year gap, was just me by myself. So. Yeah.
BWW [00:23:14] Well, what about after that? You said it was your solo time in 2019?
AO [00:23:20] Yeah. So I would say the people I first got connected with who began to help me probably was the pony ride. So I joined with them in 2019. That was my first kind of like, step into seeing like a world full of creative people. Mm hmm. These people being very genuine and actually wanting to help. So I think it started there. I missed retail boot camp this year. I was supposed to join, would take time. But I've been working with Tech Town. They've been trying to figure out how they can help me. I've been working with Nest, and Nest is an amazing, I want to say, nonprofit. They are actually the ones who introduced me to Hermes. Probably saying it wrong and, you know, got me on a panel with them, which is insane for my company to even be on a panel with a company like that and design. I mean, they helped me a lot. Of course, I'm a part of the design this month. So now, you know, I'm beginning to work with a lot of people and they're starting to know what we do. And we're going back and say, okay, what can we offer? You know, of course we want to grow, but it's about it's about community. This whole thing is about community, right? So the jobs that I want to bring and what I have, I'm going to give back the eyes of God, I hope, you know, I mean, my my business is about people. So design court, Nest, Tech Town, pony ride, Rust Belt market, Architecture Service Warehouse. These are all people in the last 2 to 3 years, who were really helpful.
BWW [00:24:57] Now that you have the frames coming out, you're getting this much recognition. Do you still have people beating around the bush when you're trying to explain to them that you also manufacture them?
AO [00:25:07] Oh, yeah, for sure. Even friends of mine who were friends, they didn't know I was making the glasses myself. And it was partly my fault, even I was telling
them, you know, I make glasses and things like that. Like when I started posting on Instagram and started showing my process, then people started to really understand what it was I was doing. But before everyone still thought I was designing here, sending off the designs overseas and getting the product back, and no one knew that I was actually making them in my head. So yeah, I still get that every single day.
BWW [00:25:45] Yeah. So earlier you talked about the next goal, of course, is scaling up the manufacturing process and getting that going. What else is going on in the company?
AO [00:25:55] Yes, I'm joining Metro Detroit Black Business Alliance. Some amazing people over there helping me with funding so I can build on my back in the network. You know, the next goal after that was we had that down pact is to open up our shop. Full service shop. I'm not going to go to detail because we have some really creative ideas we're going to do that's never been done before, but 86% of people still want to go into a workshop to get their eyes checked. So we have to have a brick and mortar to grow. And so but working with them, I'm working with we're talking to them what they're working with yet but motor city match on Tuesday to figure out you know how we can work together as well with the funding and so yeah that's what that's what we are and that's what we are now is working on the back end and building on manufacturing as well as what the future holds for having an eyewear shop.
BWW [00:26:47] Nice. So you mentioned that the framed 50 custom motors earlier where those primarily Detroiters did you see those orders coming in from across the country?
AO [00:26:55] Detroit, Atlanta, yeah I’d say Detroit and Atlanta for sure. I have a really big following in New York. But, you know, still that whole aspect of marketing and storytelling, because they see the product and they get inspired. People who are really into the style of fashion, but they still have no idea who we are. They don't really know what we're building. So we actually have a young lady who's going to be a brand ambassador soon in New York. We have some in Atlanta, some in California, of course, here in Detroit. And so more and more people will have like a more inside look, even if we're not physically in those cities yet.
BWW [00:27:37] What is more important for the company going forward or just what's your preference? Getting the glasses in eyewear stores or having your own brick and mortar?
AO [00:27:47] Um. That's a good question.
BWW [00:27:50] I genuinely don't know the answer. I was wondering.
AO [00:27:54] Man, I would say right now is getting them into eyewear stores. So we'll soon be working with Sharper Vision, which is on Garfield right down the street. And the main reason I say is because people need to get their eyesight checked and get the glasses at the same time, which right now we just make the custom frame. But having all the stores, because no one can bring an experience that we can bring and no one's ever going to do that. It's like we are designing a very specific way. We all think a certain way. Everyone is unique in their own way. And so the vision that we have only we can actually make that happen. So that's just as important.
BWW [00:28:36] Is there anything about the company or your journey that you wanted to share with me but I didn't ask you about.
AO [00:28:43] Oh, yes. What GODNII means. I guess well God means God’s vision. And that also came throughout the journey. I actually didn't even know what the name meant when God gave it to me. So my amazing business partner challenged me every single day. You need to know what his name means before you start selling the product. So I had to go back to the drawing board again, you know, praying all the time. And the first the first thing I heard from God was, is that God and I is the blueprint of heaven. So heaven on earth is seeing yourself from God's eyes. And living from that perspective is your highest. So, so GODNII means God in your eyes seeing yourself, how God sees you? It means God is not a God within you. It means God, like God next to you. So again, when I tell people that it's kind of crazy because it probably came over a span of two years, me fully understanding even what it was that I have received. So, you know, that would be the biggest component. Even if someone doesn't buy the product, I want them to hear that message.
BWW [00:29:47] Very nice.
AO [00:29:49] You know.
BWW [00:29:51] Just a few more quick wrap up questions and we’re all good. When you think of the word hustle, what comes to mind?
AO [00:29:58] Be sure to hustle harder. I think about the Motor City. I think about families. People who work hard to feed their families and take care of them. I think about education. You know, people are educating themselves, whether they're in school, whether they're getting a trade. You know, whatever they're doing to work their mind, you know, to actually make something happen that's going to ultimately make the world better for people. You know, if I'm making clothes, I'm putting clothes on people's back to have a restaurant is feeding people. If I'm an educator, educating the next generation. So whatever it is is in your mind is is what God is giving you to help people around. So that's what I think about when I think of hustlers.
BWW [00:30:44] And then very similar, very similar question What do you think of when you hear the word hustlers?
AO[00:30:51] I think of myself. I think about myself. I think about my journey and how long it took me to get here. I think about persistence and honestly, you know, to be an ultimate hustler is to really know that whatever you're hustling for, whatever vision you have is bigger than yourself. That's what I think about.
BWW [00:31:12] Do you have a new side hustle now?
AO [00:31:18] Oh, I do Lyft occasionally. So, you know, actually. I met my one of my advisors through Uber being a driver. So yeah, it's, it's crazy. The people you meet when you are hustling, you know what I mean? So I did every now and then, you know, make some 6am runs hand out my business cards, you know, we talk to people still about what I do, you know?
BWW [00:31:43] Yeah, very nice. All right. Thank you so much. This was great.
AO [00:31:46] Thank you. Appreciate it.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ali Omar, September 2nd, 2022
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview, Ali Omar talks about being a part of the Hustle project, his business and growing up.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Detroit Historical Society
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Detroit Historical Society
Language
A language of the resource
en-US
Black Business
Detroit
Entrepreneurship
The Hustle
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hustle: Black Entrepreneurship in Detroit
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Detroit Historical Society
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Detroit Historical Society
Language
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English-US
Oral History
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Narrator/Interviewee's Name
The current first and last name of the person speaking or being interviewed.
Candace Williams
Brief Biography
A short biography of the Interviewee
Candace Williams was born in 1980 in Detroit. She has ventured in several entrepreneurial opportunities, but eventually opened her own business Bark's Fifth Avenue.
Interviewer's Name
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Lily Chen
Interview Place
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Detroit, MI
Date
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8/16/2022
Interview Length
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46:30
Transcriptionist
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Taylor Claybrook
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
LC: All right. So today is. August 16th, August 16th. Tue Tuesday, Tuesday, Tuesday it is Tuesday. And this is Lilly Chen: . I am interviewing for the Hustle project and we are really excited to be talking to one of our nominees. So go ahead and start with just the basics. So your name and go ahead and spell it out and then give us your business name too.
CW: My name is Candice Williams. It's C A N D A C E W I DOUBLE L I A M S and I am the owner of Bark's Fifth Avenue. B. A. R. K. S. F. I. F T H avenue. AVE.
LC: Awesome. And what's the address of your store?
CW: It is 19359 Livernois avenue in Detroit. 48221.
LC: Okay. And what year...what year was it found?
CW: It actually started this business. I just opened in April for this business. I just opened in April of this year.
LC: Wow. Yes. That's really exciting. Okay. And you say this business like you have run businesses before.
CW: Yes. So I have a partnership with my mother as well. And another boutique, Teaser's Boutique that's actually located right next door to Bark's Fifth Avenue.
LC: Wow.
CW: So, yes, a duo.
LC: Okay. All right. Cool. And then. And what year were you born and where were you born? In Detroit.
CW: I was born in Detroit in 1980.
LC: Okay. Cool. So let's start at the beginning, even before the business. So tell me about growing up in Detroit and. Yeah, a little bit about your childhood.
CW: So growing up, I've always been... I'm the youngest of three children to two entrepreneurs. My mom has been an entrepreneur since I met her. She started off her original business as a hairstylist and then kind of migrated into doing clothing and making clothing. And that's kind of where I fell in love with clothing, period. Yeah. And then my dad has always been super business savvy. He's, you know, started off as a truck driver and then ran a wire and cable supply company. So when it comes to... The bookwork and the logistics of everything, I get that from my dad and then the creativity comes from my mom and all of this. So I was in a house with two of my mentors, really, you know, and just being able to always bounce ideas off of my parents and saying, Hey, I'm thinking about doing this. And then them kind of being my dad being the rational one and my mom saying, okay, this is how we can do it and make it come to fruition. So that was pretty much like how I grew up. Growing up, I was into fashion. I was a model as a child, so I did a lot of runway and photos and all that stuff. So it's always kind of been there for me. Moving forward, I kind of became a mother at age of 20. So, you know, when you become a young mother, you have to do things a little differently. So I did enter into corporate America. I worked a job all the way up into November of last year when I just decided to go full time entrepreneurship. But in between, every job I've always had, I've had side businesses. I've been at a tax company. I did interior design for people. I created logos and fliers, I've done websites for people. So it's always been something in me to do something additional outside of working because I knew, you know, with your typical 9 to 5 job and I was in payroll. So it wasn't like it was something that could I can explore my creative side. I had to, you know, figure it out on the sideline. So that's kind of what I did. And then I didn't really have the opportunity to be able to network in that type of industry. Um, it's kind of a boring industry. You know, and I was in management the only time people want to talk to you is when they're mad. So it's like it's hard to talk to people and get to know things about people when they're upset. So just being able to partnership with my mom on being in the retail business and you know, you meet a lot of people and going to shows and networking events. We've done a lot of fashion shows, so I've made a lot of connections within Detroit and just being able to know people and always looking and grabbing information from everybody that I mean, that's always kind of what I thrive off of in, you know, being on the avenue of fashion is great. You know, there's so many different variations of businesses out there. And it being one of the larger black owned business districts, it's always somebody outside that you can talk to and you can learn something from. So it's just been like, Oh, it's just been me. I had no other choice, I feel like but to be an entrepreneur. I don't... I never felt more comfortable in my life. It was a scary transition to go from being, you know, you getting a consistent check every two weeks to kind of you got to depend on yourself. But it's the most comfortable and uncomfortable I've been at the same time. If that makes sense.
LC: Yeah. So it's cool to hear you talk about it. You have so much passion and I'm so glad that you're able to do something that you can actually, like, really flourish in and you know. Yeah, have you... so you're on the west side now and have you always...are you from the West Side?
CW: So I kind of grew up in the suburbs and then kind of migrated over into the West Side. So I always tell people, I don't care how long I've been in Michigan, I'm never 100% for sure, I GPS, and I do everything... I don't know this city. I can not memorize anything but like how to get home and how to get to my business. So it's like people are like, I don't know, they're like, Are you from Detroit? Yeah, but I don't know. Like, it's so weird. I cannot memorize it. It's like I am not like street savvy when it comes to moving around and that's anywhere I go. So I from Detroit, do I know Detroit like the back of my hand? I can't honestly say that I do, but it's just a funny fact about me. I am not. I'm not, I'm not a walking G.P.S..
LC: Yeah.
CW: I wouldn't know what to do without a phone or the MapQuest. I'm putting it out.
LC: Yeah. So, okay, so talk me through the start of your business and where you got, you know, idea for the name and how you came up with this business idea.
CW: So really the the business came to mind and an idea it was two things that kind of came to it. My grandmother, who passed some years back, had a dog. And that's kind of where we got. Introduced to dogs in our family was through my grandmother and she had two dogs. And she always treated those dogs like they were, you know, children. Like they did everything. Literally never had a leash on any dog, never did anything. Like the dogs would wipe their feet at the door. They would eat off a regular plate. So it was like I always looked at this like, that's my uncle, you know? So it's like, so the most recent dog was Bear, who we kind of took in after my grandmother passed and Bear passed away not too long ago. So I was like, you know, when you deal with that type of thing and a different aspect, it's different when it's someone else's dog passed.
LC: Oh, I'm sorry.
CW: But when it's like somebody in your family, it's like my uncle. It was, you know, it was devastating. So the the idea was like, huh? I should do something to honor Bear. That was his name. Yeah, but then I was sitting outside. I had a meeting one day, and I was sitting outside. Outside of Teaser's on Livernois. And I was just like looking around and I'm seeing all these people walking their dogs and I'm like, man, like since the pandemic, it's like, you know, the amount of people who own pets have increased dramatically. And so it's just like looking around, I'm like then I started looking at all the businesses that were out there. I'm like, We have something for women, we have men's, we have streetwear, you have shoes. You have restaurants, we don't have anything to cater to these dogs. So, I'm like that would be a good idea. Still lay dormant in my head. And then I went to a show in Georgia and I was just randomly. The show had nothing to do with pets, but it was a vendor there and this guy was there for a women's clothing show. But he started talking to me about dog clothing and it was like so weird because I never had a conversation with him prior to that, nor I told him about this idea that was laying dormant in my head. And so I'm like, Oh my gosh, this is just like a sign that I need to, you know, try to figure this out. And then once the I came back and it was probably like a month later, the lady that's that was in the building that I'm currently in, she was like. I'm moving out like I'm I'm not resigning my lease. So like this is it like everything was like coming like, at every angle. Like you got to do like you got to do it. So our contact, the landlord, I'm like, don't even take the keys. She can just give them to me. I'm going to take the building, our innovator. I'll do everything for it. And it kind of was like, all right. Now it's like full throttle. Like, I hadn't really even had a design of how I wanted the building to look. So I'm like, Oh, everything's just like, go. Yeah. So everything was a very accelerated pace. I just started Googling. I was up so many, like the first 90 days. I was like, everything was late night because I did find vendors. I had to, like, figure out how I wanted to lay out to be find all that stuff. So I was like, okay, I'm, I'm doing teasers throughout the day. And then when I go home and I am, you know, you get your dinner and it's like, boom, you're on the computer. So I'm on the computer at four or 5:00 sometimes because a lot of the vendors are overseas and so they're on the different time zone. Wow. So it's a morning for them, but it's late. It's, you know, in the middle of the night for me. Yeah. So I just kept going and I mean, it was, it was quick, it was bumpy. Um, and, you know, it wasn't always, you know, smiles and giggles. It was many nights I cried cause I'm like, What am I doing? But at the same token, I knew what the end result was. And I knew no matter, you know, some days I was kicking, but some days the day was kicking my butt. But I knew I never wanted to give up. And then, you know, I had the support of my family to help me to keep going. So it was just like, all right, I got to figure out, you always keep I always keep my eye on the end of what I wanted. And that's what kept me going. But I would say, you know, getting in the city and, you know, kind of having a little bit of knowledge with the other business made it a little easier. But opening a business is not easy for anybody. I survived that part, at least in the next chapter of your first year of business and how everything is going to pan out, because that's really going to determine how you're going to do so.
LC: But it really seems like you're flourishing. I mean, people believe in your vision. Yeah.
CW: Yeah, I've I've I've I honestly can say it's been it's been a blessing like all the doors that I've that's been opened and the people that have supported me, I'm truly thankful for all of it.
LC: Yeah. Um, people love their pets.
CW: They do. They do.
LC: I can honestly say that I spend more money on my pets than my own clothing.
CW: It happens like that. It does happen like. Yeah, it's amazing. They're like your babies, though. Like, you can't help, but it's like, you know, most people who don't have children, even if they do, I have people come in and saying, my grand dog and I'm like, it's so like, who wouldn't know? Like, I have a guide dog like my, my nephew and I'm like, your nephew. Like, like some people may come in and think it's their babies. I'm like, No, this or dogs they like, Oh, I know. It's like my nephew. So I'm like, it's serious. Yeah, it's very serious and I appreciate it.
LC: Yeah. I mean, basically the love for the love that people have for their pets is what carries your business forward. Exactly.
CW: You know, exactly.
LC: Um, so it's so cool to hear that your parents have been part of your journey and have been such an inspiration for you. Very much so. Um, so tell me a little bit about your mom's business.
CW: So Teasers Boutique, it's a women's clothing store. We've been open about 20 years, so she's, she's a veteran in the game. Um, we've hosted a lot of fashion shows within the city. We do a lot since they kind of did the state street migration and where they have expanded the sidewalks. We have a lot of shows right in front of the building. We just had three this summer so far, so then we have another one next month. So it's a lot of she's been doing this for so long and her name and the respect that she gets just from her talent, her creativity, she makes a lot of clothing. She's dressed a lot of local celebrities. She's dressed some national and global celebrities. She is a very passionate woman. She is I always say our in our business like tagline that I always use on our Instagram is we're not just a boutique, we're an experience because there's not too many places where you can say, I have an event tonight or I'm going out this weekend. Can I come in there and get dressed and you help me put it all together? It's not too many places that you can do that. And she does that like we've taken pictures for people to be able to, you know, the pulse on their social media. It's like one stop shopping and she'll try to find the shoes if she can. She's like, Well, how are you going to wear your hair? It's like, it's a hold together. We make everybody feel like they're a celebrity when you come in there.
LC: That's amazing. Yeah, the fashion means a lot more. Mm. So it sounds like you. I mean, your mom's business means so much to you. Does. Um. Do do you have any, like. Thoughts or reflections that you want to share about what it's like to own a business next to your mom.
CW: I think that's probably the best way I have ever thought of or imagined to have a business. Because when you have those moments and when you have those low times where you're like, What am I doing here? You have her, my mom, right next door to be like, Let me go over there. And, you know, either you got to get a quick kick in the butt or you're going to get a pep talk or a hug or whatever the case may be, whatever you need in that moment, I have that. So, you know, to be able to say I can just walk, take ten steps and go say, mom, I'm feeling like, you know this or something like that, or even if it's exciting news, hey, this just happened for me. It's instant. It's not something I got to wait, you know, to get on my break or, you know, wait on the ride home or anything. It's motivational, even if it's just like we've got this idea and vice versa. If we say we should do an event and we'll just talk it out, we'll sit right in front of the store. A lot of people, they will ever walk and deliver noise. They'll see us and outside and we're like, Oh, we're just having a little business meeting, you know, we're just having a time and we talk things out and so many ideas and so many events and so many concepts have come from just that sitting outside of the business and live in a way that I don't forget. So you could say, you know, I could think of something and I just go right there and rather than waiting and then possibly forgetting what it was.
LC: Yeah, I'm taking notes so I don't forget my questions. Okay. What is what do you think are some of the most valuable lessons that you've learned from your mom? And what do you think are some of the lessons that you've learned most valuable on your own?
CW: From my mom is be passionate about everything that you do. Put your entire being in everything that you do, and people will receive it better. Because if you halfway do something or you don't care or have a love for what you do. It comes out in the result of whatever your product that your service is putting out. If you have passion and you have a love for what you do, people are going to feel it. And that's what keeps people coming back to you.
LC: Yeah.
CW: And one of the things that I've learned on my own is. Stay consistent and stay persistent. Everything doesn't happen overnight, like social media may sometimes perceive for some people, and they may receive it that way. It's going to come in your consistency and your hard work and knowing what you want to do and sticking to the plan. That's been what I have done in the last year. Even when I was uncomfortable, I had to fight through it. So just stay consistent with everything.
LC: Something that's really cool about talking to you. You know, we we've talked to so many different entrepreneurs and some of them have been doing it for, you know, 40 plus years. And it's been a long time since they've had those bumps in the beginning. So it's hard for harder for them to remember. We're talking to you. You know something that I think. People who start businesses really want to hear is not how wonderful it was. It's how was it actually really hard.
CW: Exactly.
LC: If you want to know honestly what it's like. Yeah.
CW: It's real. You got to I mean, it's real. And I think we often. Ah. You know, with the way we're fed everything through social media and everything is kind of glamorized. I don't want to paint a picture. I want you to understand. It's not easy, it's not hard. You're not just going to get rich overnight. You're not going to be able to, you know, go buy your fancy clothes or your bags or your nice cars. That doesn't happen for you overnight. Yeah, and it doesn't happen for you if you're not consistent or if you're lazy about it.
LC: Yeah. So in the beginning, you were working full time and pursuing this dream full time? Mm hmm. How did that. How did that work? Tell us about some of the. The bumps.
CW: Um, a lot of sleepless nights because your brain doesn't know how to shut off sometimes. A lot of it was scary. It was, you know, where do I. And then being a mother on top of that. So it's like, where do you where do you draw the line or where do you say, okay, I'm going to put this much into, you know, work and 9 to 5 and then this much into pursuing my dream. And it was hard for me because I had a high stress job. And, you know, sometimes I was working ten, 12 hours at that job and then still trying to pursue a dream and, you know, get a dream off the ground and still, you know, help with teachers and, you know, be a parent. So it was a lot and it was I was unbalanced. And I think ultimately it made me and I'm going to be honest, it was a depressive state for me for a short period of time because I didn't know how to shut down. I didn't know how to have that me time. Yeah. Shut your brain off. Because when you did, I felt like when I did shut down or when I did say, let me sleep in, I felt like, why am I doing this? I could be doing that or I should be doing this. And so I felt like I was punishing myself for doing, you know, taking that time for myself. So that's when I was like, I can't continue to go on this path. I have to make a decision. And was the decision was between. You know, carrying the in. Proceeding to make someone else. Isn't last name successful or my surname successful. So I went with my own.
LC: Yeah. It's amazing. And it's. I just feel so proud. You know? Yeah. Okay. So. So you're. You're balancing a lot? Mm hmm. What were some of the best parts? The highs.
CW: The best part is seeing things start to finally unfold. You know, when you get here, like it was so crazy. It's so small but amazing. My notes to some people. But like when your first inventory box comes in, it's like, Oh my God, this is really had me. The grand opening was like the focal point of my happiness to finally see it come in like, Hey, world, this is it. And this is the final product and. Just seeing everybody's feedback on how things looked in, you know, what they thought about the imagery because you don't know, you know, you're kind of doing it for years. You're like, okay, I think that's nice, but you don't know how people are going to receive it at the end of the day. So those small wins and you know, you're of course, your first sale is always amazing. And just seeing how people react every day by coming in, they're like so happy about it and you know, their how they receive it. And, you know, when you get your customer reviews and repeat customers and people are just overall satisfied. And then the partnerships that I have, you know, gave and people that are saying, hey, I want to work with you, hey, let's collaborate. If those types of things make me happy because it's like somebody else is just as excited about this as I am. Or they believe in me.
LC: Yeah. Absolutely. Do you work with the team now?
CW: No. It's still just me. It's still just me.
LC: But that's really just me.
CW: I'm. I think once I, like, really have a little more time to iron out everything on how I want everything to be. I still need to go through the obstacles myself first. Yeah. In order to know how to handle it. How I want it to be represented. If I wasn't in that position, or if I wasn't the one going through the obstacle and it's my business name, so I still feel like I need to be in the mud to know how I want everything to pan out. Because if I send someone out there and they're representing me and my business, I want to make sure they're represented in the way I would want to. So I need to go through the obstacles first. So it's kind of hard. It's like your baby and like you don't want to take your kid here too early. That's true. So that's kind of how it is. But then I'm just like my mother, like, you know, we like to have our hands on everything. We're both in our businesses every day working, so you always find us there. So it's just like, you know, I'm a mother's daughter, I guess.
LC: Yeah. So tell us about some of the products that you have in the store.
CW: So currently I'm carrying we have clothing, so we have is we have some t shirts because of seasonal stuff. So we have some t shirts. We have hats, we have cowboy hats, we have birthday stuff. So if they want to have something for your birthday, for their birthday and we have jackets, we have I'm trying to think of a visual inside of my head and we have a size three. So we have like hair bows, we have fanny packs, which are one of my favorite things. We have doggy purses.
LC: It's just the fanny pack.
CW: So it goes like a cross holds on their side or on their back. They put on it has a little zippers are open. So if you want to put a little treat in there, you can go in there as well. You know, we have sunglasses, we have crocs. And then coming up, I'll be having some Halloween costumes. I have stuff for the holidays of you undies and for Thanksgiving, people take pictures, Christmas stuff. So we'll have all that stuff as well as I have a groomer on site. So we have grooming services as well.
LC: Cool. What are I mean, I'm hearing some things. What are the things that you're most excited for? Things that you're scared about, things that you're. Yeah. That are upcoming. Um.
CW: Well, I'm excited about this one service that we're going to offer, which is we're going to have dog parties. So we're going to be able to open up our space to host your dog's birthday party, and we'll take care of everything. So, you know, you'll pay a fee and you'll get, you know, the treats, the decorations, all of this stuff will be set up. So I'm really excited about getting that off the ground and being able to host dog parties in the future. What I'm probably most excited about currently is the Halloween costumes. I don't know. I've been looking and it's just like, Oh my God, this is going to be phenomenal. And I'm really thinking that I might want to do like a Halloween party so I can have the dogs just come in with their Halloween costumes, just in-stores, so we can just get some pictures and have fun and have some doggy treats and stuff like that. Yeah, I'm really excited. And then one of the other events that were we're going to do, we wanted to do this summer, but it was too we had so many other events this summer and not enough time to get it planned. But I want to do 100 paws, which is kind of a spin off the suits that they do on live or and like where they have them in the walking with their 100 men in suits. I want to do 100 dogs, 100 paws, rather. So I'm excited about trying to do those types of things. So those are all probably that will probably be in next summer, but so it'll be a little bit warmer walking to cold. But I'm excited about that. I'm also excited about seeing like people's reactions to all the cute little winter coats that I have coming. Yeah.
LC: Something that I I've realized doing this is that there's so many similarities between, like a museum curator and a small business owner because you carry everything that's in your store. Yep. You know, and it's. Your heart is in everything that you pick. Mm hmm. Um, so it's cool. It's almost like I'm excited to visit your store because you'll. I'll get to learn about who you are, you know, and your tastes.
CW: Yeah. Yeah. This is exactly the same. It's like, you know, your hours are more so, you know, they're, you know, they move in and out because it's, you know, retail. But it's really all an exhibit. Like my store is an exhibit of different items. Yeah, the only difference is yours. Stay. Mine's move. But most of the time it's like it's a consistent moving of different exhibits. And how your store looks is, you know, people that's how people feel like, okay, you know, if you walk into a store, it's a mess. You're going to be like, that's a terrible place. You know, if it's a walk, you know, and everything, even how I hang clothes matter to me. Yeah. So it's like every little thing is a visual representation of who I am.
LC: Yeah. So I'm sure that you get a lot of human visitors and you get a lot of dog visitors, too. Is that. Tell me about that.
CW: So I'm starting to get more dogs come in now. Like in the beginning it was more humans because they didn't realize you could bring your dogs in. But dogs are more than welcome. Of course, if you know they're leashed and well-behaved, you know what I mean? Don't want any rumbles in there. Yeah. But it's been exciting just to see how it's. It's funny because the dogs, like, they have their own personalities, and you'll have a dog come in. And then, like, sometimes wear their little outfits out and just to see, like, some of them even walk different after they put their outfit on like, it's like, oh my God, I just transformed your puppy into a diva. Like, it's so amazing. It is so amazing. Like, I'm like, I wouldn't have never in my life that that would happen. Like, it's, it's just so cute. And then I have like a little doggie dressing room in there, so it's just it's just fun. It's fun to see all the different dogs and even the bigger dogs. I don't have a lot in stock for the big dogs, but I'm a cane corso and I'm like, This dog is so chill. And like, he was just cool. We took pictures together. I'm like, This is just like my friend. So it's been cool, you know, get to know people and hear their stories and their passion about their pets and how some of them came to them. You know, you've got some rescues. I had a guy come in whose dog he had two dogs and they were they were rescue from Hurricane Katrina. So the owners had lost them in Hurricane Katrina and he rescued both of them. So it's like it's interesting. It's not just, you know, about fashion, but just learning people's stories and how they came into loving their dog or how they may have acquired their dog. So it's it's very fun.
LC: Yeah. Um, I want to ask you about that the business district there because it's, I mean it is cool. Mhm. I always when my wife and I go, we're like, Oh, we should only bring cash because we're just going to end up spending our entire paycheck on the street.
CW: It's hard.
LC: It's crazy. Tell me about being part of that community.
CW: It's amazing because especially like within our block, you we know everyone. So it becomes like a little family. Yeah. And. Just like, you know, you speak to everybody. It's just like, you know, it's hard these days. Like when you're within your neighborhood, you may not have that because a lot of people are working and they're moving or depending on where you live, you may not even see them often. But I see these people most days of the week. Yeah. And so just, you know, like, you know, they're in there hustling and doing what they need to do the same way I am. And you know, we come out and we talk to each other. We make it just all outside some days like, Oh, hey, how's business for you today? So it's like a big family, extended family, and everybody cares about each other on their. So it's really good and just have those relationships like I know I can where I can go, I'm going to, you know, people know you can catch me at the Mexican restaurant or picking yo on Fridays. Like, I'm going to go down there. I'm going to, you know, I de-stress, I go down there and hang and they all know us. So it's like one big family. So there, you know, it's just like, you know, you have, uh, Norm at Cheers. It's kind of how it is. Like everybody knows your me, so it's fun. I love it being over there. I think especially with the way the sidewalks are and being able to have way more people walk around out there and just being a part of a community and being there while it was kind of dormant to being to the way it's thriving now. It's been great because a lot of those people have been over there for quite some time. Yeah, so we all know the struggles that we went through and we went through it together. So it's like, you know, you went through the turmoil and now we're all here at the end and we survived and like, we're all cheering each other on, so it's great.
LC: Yeah. Something that I really just makes me so happy about. Interviewing all these different business owners and especially black business owners in Detroit, is that there's not that feeling of competition. It's more like everyone's lifting each other up. Mm hmm. Yeah, that's so important.
CW: Yeah, because at the end of the day, we're stronger together. And if we're all, it's enough people in the world and in Detroit for everybody to be successful. So if we collaborate and we do things together, we'll have a stronger bond in most communities that stick together, thrive better than they do when they work against each others.
LC: Yeah. And you can see it all the time. I mean, there's like Juneteenth stuff that happens there, like all these different celebrations and fashion shows. I've seen fashion shows there. And I feel like everyone turns out you and comes out and.
CW: It's fun, it's awesome. It's like, I love doing main events. It's so much fun just seeing all the people. And we have the red carpet out there most of the day. So it's not just fair. Like when we do the fashion shows, we we have the red carpet on there and just people just feel good like you all you see the people walking down and they're just walking normal. Then they see the red carpet and they like strike a pose and then they start doing their walk and they're striding and it's just fun. It's it's great to see the smiles on people's faces. We've all been through a lot after Kobe and during Kobe, rather. So it's it's great to see everybody come back out and be able to celebrate in whatever capacity is. Even if it's just a regular Saturday. It's just fun. Yeah.
LC: And your story in particular, I think probably brings so much story because it's literally. Pets and clothing. You can't get better than that.
CW: You can't. They're so cute.
LC: So cute.
CW: So cute. The little I just love it is. It's so fun. I just see them and how they are and you know, how happy they are and just the pictures that I get from them. And it's just like people would be amazed how much they dance pose in their clothes. Like, it's so wild. The pictures that I have in my phone, I'm like, This is so crazy. One of the dogs, whenever I brought anything out for her to try on, she'll get on her two legs and start kicking like. That's it, that's it. I'm like, Yep, that's the one for her. She was picking her outfits out, so I'm like, This is great.
LC: Amazing. The people got to bring their dogs to stores because they probably have their own opinions about what they want to wear.
CW: Exactly. These dogs have their own personalities. It's just like your kid wins and you're like, you know how your kid is and what they're going to like and what they don't like. Your dogs are the same way.
LC: So. Yeah. Well, okay, let me. Before I forget every question I was supposed to ask you. All right. How did you come up with your business name?
CW: So the business name was really a play off of Saks Fifth Avenue. It was supposed to be it's luxury. And so I was like, Well, what could I do? I had parks and it was parks and fabulous, fabulous, rough at first. I'm like, It's just too weird. I was like, I don't know if I like that. So then I did Fab in Fab, You Ruff. And I'm like, No, that's not it. And then I wanted to just stick with the barks because I like it and like, that's the typical, you know, style the dog makes the it's either wolf or bark. So I'm like. Parks fifth. And then I was like bikes, fifth Avenue. So it's just like it's, you know, still for dogs is still the barks, but it's a luxury boutique dogging boutique. So thanks for that. Really was.
LC: Excellent. I love it.
CW: Thank you.
LC: Um, I love it because, you know, when I, when I saw the business name, I'm thinking, oh, it's on Fifth Avenue. But it's, it's part of the, you know, the overnight business community. It's just a luxury brand.
CW: Exactly. It's luxury brand. It's on the avenue of fashion. So it was like perfect because I play it off the avenue of fashion. And then by faith, I like Saks Fifth. So.
LC: It's amazing. Um. Okay. If you could make one wish come true for your business, what would that wish be?
CW: I would want it to…Eventually be a franchise. I would love to see the brand more than just I'm living an avenue of passion. I wouldn't want to see it and have other states and areas be able to experience it and still hold true to what my vision is about it and the experience of it. Because it's an experience, I wouldn't say, you know, you're just coming in and your dogs are just going to throw on some clothes and walk out. That's not how I operate. So if I can stay true to my vision and expand it and I have every other business owner or franchisee have that same passion about it, I would love to see that.
LC: Yeah. I mean, there are dogs everywhere. There are. And there are flourishing black communities everywhere, too. Exactly. So, um. Okay. I had a phone question from one of our curators. Billy. Um, so his question is, now that your hustle has become your job, what's your new side hustle?
CW: Oh. That's a great question. So my new side hustle would be. Wow. What's crazy is that I've honestly, I've been thinking since I've gotten so many compliments on how this story appears, but it's also been a passion of mine that kind of been, you know, you do it just because. Yeah, but interior design. Yeah I'm really am like super interested in that interior design and actually event planning. Okay. I've done so many events. It's just like, why don't I do this? Like, yeah, I, I'm thorough with it. So I know, you know, my own checklist. If you go through the notes on my phone, you'll be like, Oh, my God, girl. Delete some of those out because I'm a planner. So it's like. Why don't I just do that? So that's probably be my next adventure.
LC: Yeah. I mean, you're perfectly set up. You basically have an eye for design. Mm hmm. Whether that's clothing for dogs, clothing for people, or literally your shop. Yeah. So, um, that's fun to hear. Um. And and what is the what is the word hustle mean to you?
CW: So means to me is someone who does not accept no for an answer, who's going to always go after what they want. I won't say by any means necessary because we don't promote illegal activities, but by any means necessary, kind of, you know, you got to do what you got to do. Someone who puts their all into everything that they do, they work hard for what they want. Um, they are consistent. They are persistent. And. They network. I think a huge part of, you know, being a hustler is networking. You can't always do everything on your own and based off your own, your own knowledge. I think one of the things that made me probably the most successful is feeding off of knowledge of other people. Yeah. Surrounding myself with people who are above me. I don't care about being the lowest man on the totem pole in a room that's never made me uncomfortable. I'm going to walk into any room like I'm confident. Even if I don't know what's going on. I may not even know the word you just said to me, but I'm going to go to the bathroom when I'm going to Google it, and I'm going to come back and I'm going to talk to you like nothing happened. So you have to be, you know, a person who's open, open to learn, open to receive other people's criticism, even if you don't like it. And just, you know, ready to just take it on. Like you have to be able to be open to learning and experiencing new things. Pretty much.
LC: Yeah. I, um. It's cool to hear you talk about people lifting you up because. That's so crucial in. In. Yeah, in any community. Communities of color. And, um, we all come from somewhere. You know, we all just lift ourselves up.
CW: Exactly.
LC: Yeah. And I've heard from a lot of business owners that, you know, you got to take away that pride.
CW: You definitely have to. Pride will kill you every time if you get in away. It's so many opportunities you can lose just having it. You have to remain humble through this process. I think the most successful people are the most humble people in the world. Yeah. If you think about it, like look at some of the most richest people in the world, you wouldn't look at them and be like. Oh, you're rich. You're a billionaire. Like, you know, you have some people that are arrogant. That's just personality traits. But, you know, I feel like the more humble you are in the process, the more you are able to receive everything else. You're able to receive the blessings you're able to receive the knowledge, you're able to receive the criticism because people come in there and they tell me stuff all the time. I mean, not wholly, you know, agree with it, but I'm okay. I'll take it into consideration. Yeah, if I had pride blocking that, I wouldn't be able to operate the way that I do.
LC: Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. And I mean. You being able to receive that feedback speaks to that. You're always willing to grow and it makes you a better business owner and makes you a better person. It's it's awesome. Okay. What about. So you talk about the word hustle. What about the word hustler?
CW: Swear. Um. Hustler is it's a it's a lot of variations to the word. For me, I would say a hustler is a person who grinds, who gets up from the moment they open their eyes to the bump. But they may close their eyes even for a catnap who is always working, always in motion. Always making something happen. I always say that you set small goals for yourself every day. And even if it's not, you know, I mean, I have made will say, for example, I may set a goal, okay, I want to make $500 today, even if it's not $500, I have a sub go. Okay. If it's not going to be 500, it'll be 250. I'm going to always set something three or four goals for myself every day, no matter what I do, and I'm going to cross them off. That's a hustler or somebody who's constantly doing something and checking something off the list. Because if you're you can't be you can't be a hustler and be lazy. So you have to have some type of goal set for yourself every day. Small It doesn't have to be anything. It could be. I'm going to eat lunch by 12:00, you know, because when you're when you're moving, it's hard to plan your day. Yeah. Even if I just need to stay on schedule today, I need to do this by 2:00. You're going to do it. A hustler is somebody who is going to stay with her. So it's going to be constantly networking. I'm going to always try to find somebody who maybe even if it's not the same line of work that I'm in or the same type of business, somebody that I know has either been in the game longer than me or has some type of knowledge, or they're into something I may be interested in. Hey, how did you do that? Hey, how do you know? What do I need to do? How can. How can we help each other? That's what I is. Even if it's a partnership, it doesn't necessarily have to be what you can get from them. It may be something like, you know, we can reciprocate. Even if it's not a service or a product, it's knowledge. We can bounce it off each other. Ideas?
LC: Yeah, absolutely. Is there anything that comes to mind that I haven't asked that you wanted to talk about or share?
CW: I think you have some pretty awesome questions.
LC: Well, one of the things I. Really love about your business is that, you know, every black business is kind of a big like. What's that square, let's say? It it really shows. That people are resilient. In the face of all these things that we can't control. Mhm. Um. But your business is cool too, because it completely defies. Like people's stereotypes about Detroit, about black Detroiters. It's like, no, we have a flourishing community that dresses up their pets, goddamn it. You know.
CW: Exactly. Because you look at it and you think about it like they say, Oh, this is L.A. or This is New York and that type of stuff. No, we have this in Detroit.
LC: Yes.
CW: I we are doing the same things they're doing in the major cities where, you know, they may feel like all the celebrities are, but we're celebrities in our own right. And we deserve and we have the same things that Los Angeles has and New York has, and Miami has all of those cities that people travel out to where they think, you know, it's a big deal. Detroit is a big deal. Yes. And you know, we're starting to well, we I feel like we've been seeing it, but I think more people are starting to believe in us now and it's so awesome.
LC: Yeah, we can get fancy, too.
CW: Yeah, we are fancy.
LC: We are fancy.
CW: Like, really? The most of the fanciness comes from Detroit. I know people just like, copy off of this. That's like this.
LC: We're like, I love, we're like nitty gritty, fancy, real like. We work for it. We work it.
CW: Yes, we do. And that's why I think most people look at Detroit and appreciate our work ethic and how we've come to more than most cities that we're, you know, built off of the backs of rich companies and drug money and all those things like Detroit. We we got it out the mud. We got it out the mud. And here we are still standing strong in one of the best cities to visit. Now.
LC: Yes, you have to tell it as it is, like we we are here. We've been here and we've we've been fighting the good fight. Exactly. I'm so proud that some of the coolest businesses in the world are here at home. Absolutely. You know, I'll live right away.
Candice Williams: Exactly.
LC: I love that. It is the it's the fashion. Uh, Avenue. And now we're talking fashion for pets, too.
CW: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a one stop shop, and you can shop anywhere for anything on the avenue of fashion.
LC: It's amazing. Um, and I bet it's. It's just this kind of beautiful story where your your mom has been part of that avenue of fashion for so long, and now you are kind of that new. You know, growth. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for talking to me. Thank you. Let me turn off this recording.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Candice Williams, August 16th, 2022
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview, Candice Williams talks about being the owner of Bark's Fifth Avenue as well as being raised in Detroit.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Detroit Historical Society
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Detroit Historical Society
Language
A language of the resource
en-US
Black Business
Detroit
Entrepreneurship
The Hustle
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hustle: Black Entrepreneurship in Detroit
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Detroit Historical Society
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Detroit Historical Society
Language
A language of the resource
English-US
Oral History
An audio or video resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Narrator/Interviewee's Name
The current first and last name of the person speaking or being interviewed.
Arthur C Davis
Brief Biography
A short biography of the Interviewee
Arthur C Davis was born and raised in Detroit. He went through the public school system, graduated from Cass Tech, and went on to start his own business.
Interviewer's Name
The first and last name of the interviewer.
Lily Chen
Interview Place
The place where the interview was conducted.
Detroit, MI
Date
The date of the interview in MM/DD/YYYY format.
8/10/2022
Interview Length
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23:08
Transcriptionist
The first and last name of the transcriptionist.
Taylor Claybrook
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
Lily Chen [00:00:01] Testing. All right. Hi, everyone. Today is Wednesday, August 10th at 10 a.m.. And this is Lily Chen completing an interview for the Hustle Project. We are so excited to be interviewing our nominees. And, yeah, do you want to go ahead and introduce [yourself]. Tell us your name and go ahead and spell it out and then go from there.
Arthur Davis [00:00:33] Good morning. My name is Arthur C. Davis. Do I need to spell it out?
Lily [00:00:39] Mm hmm.
Arthur [00:00:39] A r t h u r c davis.
Lily [00:00:44] Awesome. Okay. And, Arthur, what is the name of your business?
Arthur [00:00:48] The name of my business is security. A Work of Art—Executive Protection.
Lily [00:00:52] Okay, awesome. And it is obviously in Detroit. Do you have a brick and mortar or are you, is it just, uh, the security business?
Arthur [00:01:05] Just a security business I have in Detroit. And basically I work out of different venues, so I use my home as my address.
Lily [00:01:15] Okay, cool. All right. So before we get into the business, I'm going to ask you just about a little bit about yourself. So what year you were born and where you were born? And tell us a little bit about growing up.
Arthur [00:01:29] Okay. I was born in Detroit. How many years ago?
Lily [00:01:33] Many.
Arthur [00:01:34] Many years ago. Raised on the west side of Detroit. And I grew up attended all Detroit public schools. I graduated from Cass Tech.
Lily [00:01:45] Oh, wow.
Arthur [00:01:45] And then I attended the Oakland University in Rochester, Michigan, where I earned my bachelor's and master's degree.
Lily [00:01:53] Okay. So you went to the best high school in Detroit?
Arthur [00:01:56] Yes, I did. Okay, let's take the best high school in Detroit.
Lily [00:01:59] That's awesome. Um, just checking our volume levels. Okay. And so you said you're from the West Side. Are you still on the west side right now?
Arthur [00:02:09] Oh, currently I'm living in the Southfield area.
Lily [00:02:14] Okay, cool. And what was it like growing up in Detroit?
Arthur [00:02:19] Uh, in those days, it was great. We knew everybody in the neighborhood. You knew all your neighbors. We played in the streets. I don't know what kids are doing today, but we played in the streets. And yeah, I attended schools. The schools was a fun place to be, you know, and staying outside until the lights went out. That was the best part of it.
Lily [00:02:38] Yeah, well, you must've been... You must have had a lot of fun and then also clearly studied hard. And you ended up at Cass Tech.
Arthur 00:02:45] Yes.
Lily [00:02:46] Yeah. Um. All right, well, let's get into the business, so go ahead and tell me, like the public elevator pitch version. So if you were introducing the business to somebody who had never heard of it before, what would you say?
Arthur [00:03:03] What I would say is you have to start somewhere. So I started off basically at Oakland University as a security for a dorm. And from that, that led me to. Training in the martial arts that we had at the school at that time. And because of that, we were hired by Pine Knob because I didn't have security when I first opened in. I think it was 1972.
Lily [00:03:30] Oh, wow. So the resort.
Arthur [00:03:32] The Pine Knob amphitheater.
Lily [00:03:34] Oh, okay. Okay. Oh, cool.
Arthur [00:03:37] So from there, you know, because of my I'm only 5’9 weigh like 150, I was not impressive. So I decided I've got to learn some martial arts, you know. So from that point I started training for different arts and learn how to protect myself. Defend myself. And again. Because of my small size. I just kept training and training and training.
Lily [00:04:08] Yeah.
Arthur [00:04:10] After that, I left Oakland University. I began work. I started working as a security guard with Singleton's security agency. And again, it was uniformed security. But I wanted more. So I figured out I better learn more about this business. And therefore, I went through the Yellow Pages figuring out what's better than a security guard. And I looked at the different options corporate security, retail security. Then it was entertainment, and it was executive protection. I said, Oh, I want to take it to the highest level. And from that point on, I started to work in different venues as a bouncer in the clubs. And because of my small size, I had to use everything I learned in martial arts to become, you know, a certain sort of set of skills that made me like the perfect weapon.
Lily [00:05:17] Wow. That's such a cool story. So from the beginning. So you, you know, you graduated high school and went to Oakland University and then directly from Oakland. Did you start doing security right away?
Arthur [00:05:36] Yes, I did. By working at Pine Knob. I was working at the Meadowbrook. Meadow Brook Hall providing security there. And I became. Like I said, a bouncer. Then I
started working different venues. Yeah. And in a city as a bouncer, like the Majestic Theater, the Warehouse nightclub, several other venues like that.
Lily [00:06:06] Yeah.
Arthur [00:06:07] And at that point, you know, I wanted to become more than just a bouncer in a club. So I went out to the premier center in Sterling Heights and started doing stage and backstage security at the Premier Center. I left there, went to the Crystal Gardens in Mount Clemens. And from that point, I met several people that hired me in to the Palace of Auburn Hills. And that's where I got started as a security guard working at the Palace of Auburn Hills.
Lily [00:06:42] Wow. You've been so many places. You must have seen so many cool things.
Arthur [00:06:48] So many things. And at the Palace of Auburn Hills, as when I met working with the Pistons, I met a lot of players and met John Salley. And when I met John Salley and all of the altercations they got into at the arena, you know, at the stage or at the games, and he says, I want to hire you. I said, To do what? To be my personal security. Wow. And from that point on, he became my first client, and he was the one who pushed me into opening my own company.
Lily [00:07:27] Wow. What year did you start working for him?
Arthur [00:07:32] Probably I will say 1989. Right? Right. During the championship years.
Lily [00:07:38] Oh, wow. And how long? How long were you? His personal security guard?
Arthur [00:07:43] I work for John the entire time he was with the Detroit Pistons. I stayed at it. You know, he was only Piston that lived in Detroit, so I would live at his carriage house in back of his mansion. I provide a security for his wedding. And as again, I was his personal security. I trained him at the powerhouse gym, trained him in martial arts in his home. And we became like the best of friends. But he was the first person to suggest I start my own company. And because of him, I started a company and went back to the palace. As a company, you know, the Palace started hire my company as the first African American company to provide stage protection for artists. Wow.
Lily [00:08:35] That's amazing. What year did what year did you start the company?
Arthur [00:08:41] Probably had to be 1988, 1989, you know, because I didn't start it too, after John encouraged me to start my own company. But prior to that, you know, I was working in the clubs as a bouncer, and I had a team of people that worked with me. So once John Salley encouraged me to start a company, I felt, Oh, I gotta get some formal training. So that's when I started taking all the classes in executive protection and personal firearms. Defense tactics stick and knife fighting. And I just wanted to learn more and more about the business. So I went to every class that the executive protection offered me out there urban terrorism, airport security, hotel security. And I just learned basic stuff through the state of Michigan, like techniques and alcohol management. You know, I was part learn CPR first aid.
Lily [00:09:41] Yeah.
Arthur 00:09:42] And so by doing that, I was a loner because nobody else had those skills. Yeah. So I gather a team of 12 people and I encouraged them. Let's go as a team and learn all these skills. And again, we did it out of our own pockets. Oh, wow. We traveled to Virginia, traveled to New Orleans, traveled to Chicago. I went to Toronto for training. I went to Montreal. I became a part of the International Federation of Personal Protection Agents, you know, and that was a plus for me. So with the certification behind us and the formal training that took us out of I never wanted to be in a uniform security. I wanted to stop being a t shirt security. So now my uniform is the black suits. Yeah. People used to think of us as the men in black. No, we are a work of art.
Lily 00:10:37] Yeah, well, you're looking very dapper today. Thank you. Yeah. So you. It sounds like you learned so much over your journey.
Arthur 00:10:48] Yeah, absolutely. I learned a lot, and I'm still learning. And I met Ron Fleming. He was a former commander of Detroit Police Department of the Executive Protection Unit. He was one of my mentors. And from him, I learned basic things about personal protection and executive protection through Ron Fleming. And I also encouraged another friend of my who worked under me to start his company and. He started a security company. Basically, security guards work doing venues. His name was Charles Muhammad. And we established a partnership where he took care of the security part and I took care of the entertainment part.
Lily [00:11:32] Cool. The he was one of the 12 people that joined you originally. Yes. Okay. And how did you find your team?
Arthur [00:11:40] Basically. You know, by working in the clubs, people have come to me, ask me, I do this, you know, what? Do you need any more help? Yes, I need a lot of help. So I have men and women. And again, to get out bouncers mentality, I suggest that everybody let’s everyone get formal training. Well, you know, we've got to step it up. We've got to step it up. And like I said, John certainly encouraged me to step it up, be better from that point on. I started meeting other people through John Salley. I started working for the radio stations here in Detroit, the local race, the Shelby Hour FM 92.3. I work for them and provide security, matter of fact, for John Mason when he first came to Detroit to provide a security for John Mason, Franky Darcel. So it was very interesting to meet all of these people. And through WJLB, I was able to do security for all the classes that came into the city. Yeah. So I have met everyone. Everyone. I have met everyone. Wow. I started off with Aaliyah Was one of my first clients. Yeah. She was one. And a lot of Detroit people. Norma Jeane Bailon are stars with me. Mildred Scott and Kimmy Hall. Matter of fact, it was my first group that I worked with.
Lily [00:13:02] Wow. Um, it's it's so crazy to hear you name all these celebrities, and they trusted you with their life, you know, to protect them.
Arthur [00:13:14] And that's it. I'm very proud of, you know, my professionalism, my work ethic and my integrity. And again, I'm not on social media. So basically everything I got was to word of mouth.
Lily [00:13:26] Yeah.
Arthur [00:13:27] You know, and referrals. And I've always been that way, you know, through all these years, 35 plus years and never been on social media. I also met Tom
Joyner. I provide security for him over the past 20 years for his fantastic voyages. We've been to every country, you know, every island. And I've traveled a lot through him. I've met a lot of entertainers. I met the Isley Brothers to him. I traveled with the Isley Brothers. I worked for them for six years. I worked with Charlie Wilson and the Gap band, work for them for six years. They are personal protection agent and we have traveled all over the world. I have been over to Europe minimum ten times several countries because of these entertainers. It's been a great trip and the NFL I work for Daniel Snyder. The Detroit Lions hired me to be his personal protection when it comes to town. And I sit in the owner's box and that was a thrill.
Lily [00:14:33] That’s so cool. Wow. So, you know that original 12, obviously you didn't start with 12. You started just by yourself.
Arthur [00:14:44] Yes.
Lily [00:14:45] How long did it take to get to that bigger team?
Arthur [00:14:47] That bigger team? We got bigger and I got up to a minimum. I think 35 people. Oh, wow. And out of the original people that worked with me, one of them, one of them became the police chief of Flint. Wow. I had a lady that became a federal marshal. I
had another lady that became part of Detroit Police Department's executive protection team when a Kwame Kilpatrick was mayor.
Lily [00:15:17] Wow.
Arthur [00:15:18] So everybody. And these four guys have formed their own companies after leaving me is amazed and I'm so proud of them guys. Again, it was Charles Muhammad. He became the X-Man Protection Agency. Dale Brown became Vipers, France Johnson Openness Company. Roy Muhammad opened up courtesy crowd control. So these individuals, I'm proud of them. What they have accomplished since leaving my organization.
Lily [00:15:50] Oh, that's so cool. One of the things that really sets you apart is that you've been mentoring kind of people under you, people that used to work for you. You've seen them grow, you know. And it's so beautiful to see how much you've given in that direction to not just in your service as a security guard, but also as a as a mentor to these people.
Arthur [00:16:12] Yes. And I think that was I'm really proud of the fact that we hired. Detroiters. Yeah. Each of these companies, we have always hired Detroiters, and they was able to get, you know, to meet these national stars. My team was able to travel. You know, we got passports. Everybody got the CPR training and got the executive protection training. So we were able to travel around the world. And the greatest thing for me was that these people grew with me.
Lily [00:16:42] Yeah.
Arthur [00:16:42] And other people, they took it to another level. I'm so proud of them. But. And it's been a fantastic journey. And I'm still growing. I'm still growing. I just joined. Well, four years ago, the Wayne County Sheriff's Department through Ray Washington and Benny Napoleon, I became a part of the Wayne County Emergency Community Emergency Response Team. Okay. So I'm giving back to Detroit in that way, you know?
Lily [00:17:13] Yeah, absolutely. Well, it's and you know, it's something that people have incorrect about business owners is that they're always competing, you know, and that you would be competing with people that are starting new businesses. But that's not true, because in your case, you are supporting them and mentoring them.
Arthur [00:17:34] Yeah, there's no competition out here. I look at it as a network and encourage everybody to come together. The city is big enough for everybody to achieve their goals. And like I said, a matter of fact before people that started, companies from me, we network on bigger events. You know, we work at Hart Plaza, we work to auto shows. So we come together because I don't have a hundred man team. We even worked a Super Bowl when it came to Detroit. We had a 200 man team, but I had to encourage everybody to come together and make that work for us. Yeah. So I did a Super Bowl with several of the companies.
Lily [00:18:11] That's very cool. Yeah, it's a very different story about how business works, where you are collaborating, and especially because they are fellow Detroiters, their fellow black Detroiters that you want to support and you want to see them flourish.
Arthur [00:18:25] Absolutely. And I think that's key in this business for me, is that we all come together, you know, for the bigger picture, because myself, I couldn't do it alone. I couldn't do it alone. So I encourage everybody just come together, work towards a goal or towards your own goal, but be a part of a network. And that's that's was key to me being part of a network and look out for each other, look out for the community. Again, we're pulling people from the community into this.
Lily [00:18:53] Yeah. Yeah. So it's like you play two major roles. One is that you run this hugely successful security business. And the second is you're also a big Detroit employer, right?
Arthur [00:19:07] Yes, that is still true. And I'm still trying to employ people because they are staff shortages everywhere. And we're still trying to employ people, you know, as so many venues we have to cover. I have an opportunity to meet with the people at not Joe
Louis. I mean the Little Caesars Arena. To meet with them, see how I can help them. Assist them with their security challenges. And it's just been great. I do the Aretha Franklin Ampitheater. I work with Brother Charles and X-Men there so we could pull a team together and make that successful. And again, the Hart. We do the festivals at Hart Plaza. So it's been a journey.
Lily [00:19:48] Yeah, it's been. It's like 30 years, right?
Arthur [00:19:52] 30, 35.
Lily [00:19:53] Years.
Arthur [00:19:54] 35 years. 35 years.
Lily [00:19:55] So in 35 years, what are some of the hardest things that you ever had to encounter and what are some of the best things?
Arthur 00:20:04] The hardest thing is making sure you're protecting the patrons that come to these venues. You protect the artists. The safety of the artists is important and then the safety of our employees, because you're understaffed, you're undermanned. And when
you're working with crowds of that magnitude, our safety comes first. Right. Safety comes first. So those are our biggest challenge. Then the challenges as working with the different artists, entourages that come into the city, you know, they come with their own their own agenda. And as we know, it’s not their agenda, it’s own agenda. And you're in our house. You know, you got to abide by our rules. But it's never the artist is always their entourage that causes the problems. But a beautiful side of it is the traveling that we get, the media and a different artist. You get to meet them. Personally, I have worked with Michael Jackson and Janet Jackson when they're. When we leave the castle, I'm there 24 hours with them at the hotels till they leave. You know, as I get you know, I sit with Janet Jackson, I sat with Gladys Knight, you know, and it's just. Wow. That's interesting.
Lily 00:21:23] I mean, that's that's amazing.
Arthur 00:21:26] Well, I've been with when Whitney Houston was alive, I was with her and rode in a limo. We just laughed and joke. You know, those things I think are so much fun. But it's still about work. It's still about work.
Lily 00:21:38] Right.
Arthur 00:21:38] And still about your profession. It's cause I tell everybody we're not there to be entertained. We're there to work and provide a service. Yeah. You know, I'm not trying to become your buddy. I will protect you. I'm here to protect you. And you know, that thing of, you know, take a bullet for me and know I will keep us both from taking a bullet.
Lily 00:21:56] Yeah, that's a really good point. Why does anyone need to take a bullet? Just avoid a bullet.
Arthur 00:22:02] Avoid a bullet.
Lily [00:22:04] Yeah. So, I mean, over those 35 years, um, growing the business must have been such a crazy journey.
Arthur [00:22:14] It is growing a business again. Try and get people to step up as friend element, because that's what it costs us to take this form of training and occurs to take the training. That way we won't be reckless security. Guys, you want more money? We can get more money. I can charge a client more money. We can show him my paperwork. We're. I have certification in all of these areas. That's why you're going to pay me this money. So getting people to buy into that? No, the security is not for everybody. And to encourage them that we're not bouncers anymore. We're not bouncers. We're not trying to fight every night. So it's just get people to join in and figure out, invest yourself. I'm going to invest in you. That's what I would tell my staff. Invest investing instead of just in you.
Lily [00:23:05] Yeah. So they've learned with you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Arthur C Davis, August 10th, 2022
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview, Arthur C Davis talks about his security business Security a Work of Art Executive Protection.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Detroit Historical Society
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Detroit Historical Society
Language
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en-US
Black Business
Detroit
Entrepreneurship
The Hustle
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Hustle: Black Entrepreneurship in Detroit
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Detroit Historical Society
Rights
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Detroit Historical Society
Language
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English-US
Oral History
An audio or video resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Narrator/Interviewee's Name
The current first and last name of the person speaking or being interviewed.
Catherine Coleman
Brief Biography
A short biography of the Interviewee
Catherine Coleman was born in 1983 and grew up in Detroit. Today, she owns a company with her husband.
Interviewer's Name
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Billy Wall Winkle
Interview Place
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Detroit, MI
Date
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8/8/2022
Interview Length
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30:26
Transcriptionist
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Taylor Claybrook
Transcription
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ColemanCatherineAudio.mp3
BWW [00:00:01] Hello. Today is August 8th, 2022. My name is Billy Wall-Winkel. This interview is for the Hustle. The Detroit Historical Society's newest oral history project and larger project. I am sitting down with Catherine Coleman. Thank you so much for sitting down with me today.
CC [00:00:21] Thank you.
BWW [00:00:22] Let's start off with just some basic facts for me. Where and when were you born?
CC [00:00:27] I was born in October 1983, in Detroit, Michigan.
BWW [00:00:31] Did you grow up in the city?
CC [00:00:32] I grew up in Hamtramck and then originally off of Linwood and Inverness Street.
BWW [00:00:47] Okay. What was it like growing up in that neighborhood?
CC [00:00:51] Growing up in the neighborhood was cool. I remember just all good things. There were a lot of small businesses and my father went and played his lottery numbers every day and we went to the neighborhood store. We patronized all the neighborhood businesses, the neighborhood hardware store. There wasn't like a big franchise as it is now with like Home Depot and stuff like that. Everything was more small based.
BWW [00:01:14] Growing up, did you like going to all these small businesses as you see yourself becoming a small business owner?
CC [00:01:22] I aspired to do it, of course. There was a big influence when my father's friend, he owned a store which is now known as the Livernois Fashion District, but he owned a store there and he just saw like knickknacks. And I always admired him and said when I grew up I wanted to own my own business. So now that I own one, I always reflect back on that. And that's a lot of the principles that are involved around how I run my business.
BWW [00:01:50] Awesome. One thing I forgot to mention that the response is great. If you could partially repeat my question back in your answer, I defer to you, but that was great nonetheless. So when when did you start getting the idea for your current business? And can you tell me what that current business is?
CC [00:02:12] All right. I got the idea for my business, which is bouncing around around the city. My mother passed the same year that I formed the company, and so she was telling me I didn't like my job. I worked at the Detroit Water Sewage Department. It wasn't a bad job, but it just wasn't what I wanted to do. I didn't have the passion when I woke up and doing what I do. And so she said, Well, why don't you do what you want to do? And so after, you know, tossing around ideas with my husband and that's when he came with the Bounce House Company and we originally did bounce houses, tables and chairs. But when we would show up to the events, there were so many aspects that were missing from their party, whether the people did not show up or they didn't have it available. And so that's when I sat down with my husband. I said, Well, what about if we had a one stop shop? What about if instead of them calling several companies, they could only make one phone call to us and we could handle every aspect of their event or party? And then that's when we ventured officer getting insurance. And we were able to do the NAACP work annually for education for three years straight consecutive prior to COVID. And we've been a pro vendor for about our state park for four years. So it just kind of blossomed. And once the company started forming, that's when I started looking into, Well, what about if I did go to university of Mercy to get my bachelor and my master of business administration? But I was like, what about the entrepreneur programs? And so that's when I started hearing Buzz going about, about prosperous bio institute and tech retail bootcamp. And so I talked to my husband about the programs and I was like, Well, what about if I did a program? And he was like, Which one? I'm like, I'm going to do all of them. And that's exactly what I did.
BWW [00:03:53] That was amazing.
CC [00:03:54] Thank you.
BWW [00:03:56] So my eight follow up questions real quick. What year did you found the company?
CC [00:04:01] In 2017 February.
BWW [00:04:05] And then what year did you decide to expand it?
CC [00:04:09] when I opened it up, um, that's when I quit my job at the editorial research department, and I went full force with my own company. And we were full fledged, we were booked out, booked, booked out. But that's when I noticed a gap in services was being offered in Detroit. And when we started back in 2017, unfortunately, a lot of companies in service Detroit, whether it was the stereotypical judgments of the city or whatnot, but we were booming. And so that's when we saw a gap and we identified the gap and we conquered the gap. And we expanded the balloons. And when we first start out, we offer the concessions table, share the bounce houses, but now we offer balloons, we offer linen decor, we offer a wedding planner. We've did over 200 weddings on Belle Isle State Park, where we have the weddings at the conservatory or at the Fountain. And so it just kind of just blossomed. We did officially become branded as like the one stop shop because there's nothing that we don't offer and an event that we do not offer by chance. We have a direct company and person who ask the company name where you can contact them for that in case we don't have it.
BWW [00:05:19] So in the beginning, it was you and your husband.
CC [00:05:21] Yes.
BWW [00:05:22] And so as you expanded your offerings and got picked up, did you find yourself hiring more people? Did the two of you take it on?
CC [00:05:29] We took it on for for as my son is a big help. He coincidentally was getting his license and learning how to drive around the time that he really started buying. And so he was able to do that. And now he does deliveries. And my stepdaughter, she does deliveries now. And my five and eight year old excuse me, six, she just had a birthday two days ago. My six and eight year old, they full fledged know how to do everything that I do. So like when we show up an event, they're either doing a balloon decor setup or they're doing a learning set up, but it's a family based business as of now I do have two people that work with me that are actually trained on what I do. And she has her own company where she's able to step in and do what I needed to do. But once we open a brick and mortar location, we plan on hiring at least about ten individuals from Detroit.
BWW [00:06:15] Nice. So. What has what has stopped you from having a brick and mortar location already?
CC [00:06:24] COVID 19. And I will tell you that because we were able to secure the contract for the first ever Detroit China Festival, at Hart Plaza, and it was going to be an annual thing. But of course when COVID hit that stop, that it stopped our NAACP annual for education. It stopped all our corporate bookings, our, uh, large gatherings organizations, the end of school or back to school events, everything, you know, stop. So we moved more to going to houses or setting up outside or doing drive by baby showers. So we were able to pivot and survive, but it was just a different immediate culture of how we do business. Well, we did like balloon yard display. So when people will pull up, they will see the balloons. And when I woke up, they would see a big array of balloons in their yard. We did the bounce houses. We did contactless delivery. We wiped them down in front of a customer. We had contactless payment options that way. If they did have a gathering, it was just their immediate group. And, you know, we tried to just pivot the best way we can, but if COVID wouldn’t have hit, we will be open for sure. Now, I'm sure of that. And we received the grant for the architectural design award right before COVID hit. And that kind of put a heart on the program because it was like we were in a time where the city was like, okay, we're going to end this program for right now because they didn't know what was to come. Nobody knew. And so that was a big part because we were making steps to opening up the brick wall. We had bought the building, we had got the first grant and marketing match comes the incremental grants. So you got to step one. Step two were track track one, track to track three, track four. So once we accomplished track three, we were like, okay, we're going for track forward within without COVID. So everything stopped. But now that they're back up and running, we are anticipating an award and actually the 22nd of this month to be announced for the rehabilitation of our building.
BWW [00:08:32] That's awesome. Where is the building?
CC [00:08:34] It's located at 13238 Fenkell. It's on the corner of Littlefield and Fenkell.
BWW [00:08:43] So that's the neighborhood just north of Rosedale.
CC [00:08:48] Yeah. I'm kind of over there on my own. I say I'm on my own, but I seen the city out there last week cleaning up and doing all the lights and tearing down a lot of shrubbery and stuff. I was so excited because I'm kind of over there on my own, but it's a beautiful piece of land. Um, I'm in purchase agreements to purchase all of the lots. To the west of the building, purchase two of the lots near my building. So we're going to have some unique offerings that's not going to be offered anywhere else. And it's going to be ground breaking for the city of Detroit once we do open the doors at a location. But we purchased about a third of Wayne County auction where everything called it like put a halt on us. But now we're back on track and we're just staying positive and moving forward.
BWW [00:09:42] Okay. We're going to stay on the building track for a moment. So you mentioned that you feel kind of like on your own out there with this building. What is your hope that this space will do? Are you looking for the other businesses around you to get the buildings to be rehabilitated, or are you looking to be an anchor? What are you hoping for?
CC [00:10:03] I'm confident that we will be an anchor and we will also be encouraging for other businesses to open up in the area. I think that once we establish that, we are referring because Fenkell Avenue used to be a very, very, very successful strip for small businesses. So I'm thinking that once we start that we're going to have like a domino effect. We're going to bring life back to the neighborhood.
BWW [00:10:26] That's awesome. So how long do you anticipate the rest of the process taking? If everything goes according to plan you said it'll get you hope it'll get announced in March.
CC [00:10:43] No, this month.
BWW [00:10:44] Oh, this month, I thought you said this march. Sorry. And then after that, how long will it take?
CC [00:10:52] Seeing as my husband is doing 80% of my rehabilitation on the builder. I have a awesome husband that knows how to do all of that, but I'm thinking that. At the latest. By November, December, everything should be done.
BWW [00:11:06] That's awesome. And you said you're going to hire ten people. You mentioned you explicitly said ten Detroiters. Is it important to you to hire people from the neighborhood and people from the city?
CC [00:11:20] Yes. And the reason being. It used to be a time when the city of Detroit would only hire Detroit residents or you had to pay an additional amount. Or it was something in a verbiage where. But I think that it's important that I hire people that actually live in a community or a city in which they're doing business, because I think there is some higher level of pride. I honestly do, you know, even a sense of ownership or. You know.
BWW [00:11:47] Responsibility, investment.
CC [00:11:49] Back into where they actually live or the city that they actually live in.
BWW [00:11:58] And is it just wondering, does it also kind of remind you of where you when you said earlier that this industry didn't service Detroit. So is it kind of like coming full circle where now there's a Detroit company staffed with Detroiters serving Detroit?
CC [00:12:15] That, and it’s monumental to me because I never left. I've been here my whole life. Everything I have has revolved around Detroit, whether it was my elementary upbringing, my high school. I went to Mary Wright, Mark College. I went to University of Detroit Mercy. Like everything I do is grounded in Detroit. I've never gave up on a city. I've always stay positive. And now Detroit is Where is heaven in it? So I think that is monumental for me to do that and stay committed to the residents of Detroit because they show me love the entire, you know, pandemic and all. So I feel like the loyalty that they gave to me, I want to make sure I gave it back.
BWW [00:12:59] That's great. We're bouncing around a little bit. But you mentioned earlier that your husband came up with a name.
CC [00:13:08] No, he said. He told me to come up with the name. But the thing about the company name that makes this so unique is. You know, we were in a truck one day and we had all of the inflatables out, all of the concession machines, all the tables and chairs. We were like just strapped. And I think this was around like 2018, 2019 and we were just sending a car and we were just everywhere. We had a staff out, we were out, everybody was out. Everybody was doing something. And I told my husband, I said, you know, you told me to come up with a company name. I had no idea that I would literally be bouncing around the Motor City. We'd be everywhere. Literally it was now we’re in Saline, and we’re up in Ann Arbor, we up in Lansing, we in Pontiac, we in Detroit, we in Southwest Detroit. Clarkston, it's like literally bouncing around in Motor City. We literally are bouncing around the city, servicing our products. Yeah, that's the company and I, we, we wanted something that evolved what we do you want a sound we want a sound that captured what we do. So we're like, okay, bounce houses, you know, all right, we'll bounce. And I'm like the Motor City because, you know, when you hear the Motor City, if you tell anybody from out of town the first thing they say is, oh, the Motor City, like, you know. So I wanted to encompass that and touch on our history. And that I think becomes embedded in peoples heads because if they don't forget nothing else or remember nothing, nothing about my company. I remember it was a bounce house company in a Motor City, Bouncin around the Motor City.
BWW [00:14:38] That's great. And remind me who came up with the idea to go into bounce houses?
CC [00:14:45] My husband.
BWW [00:14:46] What was your initial reaction to that?
CC [00:14:49] I thought he was out of his mind. I was like, okay, you want me to quit a job that I've been at for ten years, like the city of Detroit. And I'm all right. I'm bounce houses and a popcorn machine. But he's very innovative, very smart. He was liked babe, people are going to have parties and people are going to spend money. He's like, if people don't spend money on nothing they’re going to spend the money on kids. And it's proven to be true. If people don't spend money on nothing else, they're going to have a party. They're going to have celebrations. Always a reason.
BWW [00:15:21] And so was the there was the demand there from the beginning, really from the get go, because you mentioned other companies in service tend to service Detroit.
CC [00:15:31] No, it jumped off immediately. And also it was a lot of the pivotal steps that I think we did the every door, direct mail fliers. I sent out over 15,000 fliers. I had people literally calling me like, girl, I just got your mail, your mail in the mail. So, you know, it was a lot of pivotal steps that we took ahead of time, I would say, before other people did. And just making sure I had access to all the programs, I want to rebrand Detroit to give them our website. So I literally went through every program, every thing to help me get the stuff that I make. As far as the logo and the brand I had Tech Town help me get a laptop and get my logo and everything together first. It's all been pivotal steps with the right people in my ear. We will be making monumental steps ahead of time.
BWW [00:16:32] Is it typical for folks and for entrepreneurs to go through every program, or do they tend to just go through a couple of them?
CC [00:16:40] They typically go to one if they're okay. But I identify things that I like about each one. And I know so many people that have completed the programs and they all have beautiful, awesome experiences to tell me about it. And I wanted to experience all of them.
BWW [00:17:03] That's great.
CC [00:17:04] And it also set me up for a relationship where I'm part of the like, you know, alumni. So, of course, they can say to me, you know, if I like if they need balloons or inflatables or imaginary things. So it's also a marketing aspect to it. So.
BWW [00:17:22] Is there. So you explicitly mentioned Belle Isle earlier. Is there were there extra steps you had to take to get to be a vendor in Belle Isle?
CC [00:17:30] You have to pay an annual fee and you have to have $1,000,000 insurance policy. The insurance policy has been a pivotal aspect of us being successful because not too many bounce houses are insured. It's easy just to open up a company, but to take the extra steps and do it, you know, the legal way and to cover yourself and stuff. It opens me up to corporate contracts, parks, Belle Isle, because you have to have an insurance policy.
BWW [00:17:56] Are you starting to see some of those larger contracts come back now that restrictions have eased up?
CC [00:18:02] Yes. I spoke with NAACP. If they don't do it this year, they'll definitely be back next year. A lot of the corporations are calling me. The schools are calling me. We've been on a lot of balloon setups at the schools.
BWW [00:18:15] So during the pandemic, it's safe to say that you were leaning on balloon sales more than bounce houses.
CC [00:18:23] And I would say no, but I would say there was a increase, a dramatic increase in stuffed balloons, which I’d say, stuffed balloons fit just about anything you want to add on in decorating. Those were popular because I could deliver on my somebodys porch and just keep it moving. So that was a contactless delivery. As far as the graduations and stuff. Some of the schools, when they first hit the schools, canceled the Proms, they canceled the graduations, they canceled all of this. And so a lot of parents said, you know what, I paid so much money for this dress or it's very important to me that they have some kind of moment. So they have me come set up balloons in the air where there was happy graduation. And I'm talking 40 to 60 inch balloons each. And it might say happy graduation with their name. Or they might have me do chips and waters and bags where the people drive by, maybe give a gift or just support it, and they get a little token for driving by. So it was a really definitely experience and it was very encouraging. So because people were so positive about pivoting to a new way of celebrating, so it was definitely monumental in balloon sales and increase and brand awareness. So because it was like who did it? And it was different because most people put the signs in the yards, you know, just to cut out words or letters. But I was doing it with balloons so it was more impactful.
BWW [00:19:45] And so even so, with that word of mouth, did you see your business increase?
CC [00:19:53] Increase in a different format?
BWW [00:19:55] Yes.
CC [00:19:56] So I had a decrease. I had a decrease in corporations booking or larger organizations, but I had a monumental increase in individuals, whether it was my moms, aunts, uncles, grandpas, you know, people calling me saying, I've got to do something for my baby or I got to do something, or we're going to have a barbecue. But can you set up the bounce house at 8 a.m. and it all starts with 1:00 or something like that. So they had time to do whatever they did to feel safe celebrating in a pandemic time.
BWW [00:20:27] As you've been doing this for the past five years now, have you seen other businesses pop up or are you?
CC [00:20:36] Oh, yeah, I see them coming. I see them go. But being in business five years, I haven't completed all the programs. And so some of the knowledge that I have, I can easily look at a company and say, okay, well, maybe if they did this, they will last longer. But I definitely doing this, they're not going to last like you can't come out. And I made the mistake of the one. That's when I first came out. But you can't come out and say, Oh, I want to be the cheapest company because then you can burn yourself out. Instead, what you share say is, I want to be the best company. I want people to feel confident when they spend their money with me. When I quote somebody, you know, if they booked, they booked. But if they don't make sure you still send out a thank you or acknowledge that at least for considering you, and maybe in the future you can service what they need or something like that. But a lot of companies have popped up. But you know, the other thing like on the strength of. I don't think is really the strong I think it's the smart, making smarter decisions and approaching stuff and really focus in on which you want to have embedded in people mind when it comes to your company. Like when it comes of mind out of order products and services we offer our best and most popular thing is our customer service. Whether you spend in $5 with me or you spending $5,000 with me, you'll get the same treatment and the same respect and the same amount of attention.
BWW [00:21:56] That's great. What is your favorite type of event to do? Do you tend to enjoy the larger corporate ones or like the smaller family ones?
CC [00:22:14] I can't choose because I treat my customers in a universal format. I can't choose the one of my favorite things in the world is to paint kids faces, because you get to talk to the kids when I want and you'll be amazed at what kids say, being a mother of four and a mom-preneur or myself like you, just be amazed by what kids like you say the darndest things, you know. And so just that one on one happy faces in a joy that they get when they see the transformation of their face. My face paint is definitely one of the highlights of my business.
BWW [00:22:49] That's adorable. So you've expanded. So you so you offer that as well. That was a one of those threes was that was one of the things you mentioned earlier. So what is the full compliment you can get if someone comes if someone comes to you and says, I want the full suite? What would you offer their party?
CC [00:23:17] What kind of event is it?
BWW [00:23:18] Oh, that's a fair point. Like a street fair.
CC [00:23:22] So it would be outdoors? Yeah. So a street fair. We can have the stilt walkers. We can have fruit carvings, we can have inflatables. We can have interactive inflatables. We can do face painting. We could do balloons with, uh, we could do interactive games. You can have party favors, celebration favors, to-go whether it's the chip bags or the logo or your company or child's picture on a water bottles and ship it. But the stilt walkers are always a hit. We could do a live dance show literally it’s whatever your budget will like to take on. We're ready.
BWW [00:23:59] That's awesome. Backtracking to something we were talking about earlier, the programs you were a part of, what was your either your favorite one? Well, let's go with both. What was your favorite program you went through? And then what was the most impactful one you went through?
CC [00:24:15] Okay. I will say out of all of them, my favorite one was Tech Town camp because I had completed Prosperous as my first program and then I did Build Institute and then it was like Tech Town was something that I have been hearing about constantly. And it was just buzzing in my ear and it was like the elite in my hair is the elite of our program. And when we first had class they were talking about a pitch competition and I was like, Oh, that's nice and stuff like that. But like the more intense and the more they train with me and develop me, help me get my business plan together and my PowerPoint presentation. I became so empowered and it was like, okay, this is really what I'm doing. I'm really a female black business owner, booked up. Sales are crazy. The business is banging. You know, I have these beautiful, lovely kids. Just everything is perfect. And then when they started training me for a pitch competition, I got the confidence like, I'm going to win this. Not only am I going to win it, I'm going to score at this. And that's exactly what I did when I got done pitching it was so empowering. Like everybody in the room was standing up and it was just amazing. And so after that, it was like my name was everywhere. And, you know, tech towns is buzzing about buzzing about Buzz and Mark. Catherine called me buzzing around Motor City. So then I had tech town at the time, and so I was like, okay, I have to do something impactful. You know, people are expecting something from me because I always come waiting. So what did I do? I wore a balloon dress. And at the end of the night, I have one little thing. You just switched it off, and then I dropped the dress and left it there. Like Cinderella left her shoes. So I would say, Tech Town, because it was just monumental. It gave me the confidence that I can do anything in the world when it comes to bouncing around and motivating.
BWW [00:26:14] That's fantastic. And I would guess that's exactly what you need if you're going to start something from scratch. Is there anything about the start, about bouncin around the Motor City or yourself that I haven't asked you about yet, that you wanted to chat about or share?
CC [00:26:36] I think you were pretty comprehensive in your interview. I would just say that one of the things that I want to be remembered for I was gonna say to you that we are able to retire in the face of a small business. That is like my pivotal goal. To accomplish that, I want to be in a neighborhood, a business neighborhood, reachable where you can call me. Um, you know, in my day, I used to have a problem with a business. First thing you say is like, where's the manager? The owner right here. You know, just accountability and a responsibility that I'm taking also to bring back to face of business, small business in a neighborhood.
BWW [00:27:18] That's great. Um, you fantastically answered so many of my questions all at once. I'm trying to make sure I cover my bases and didn't miss anything. While I think of that, though, do you remember how you heard about this? I told you that throughout the program for a moment. The hustle.
CC [00:27:43] Okay. A friend of mine called me up and was like I found out about something that I nominated for, and I was like, what is? And she was like, What are you allowed to do? I was like, I'm a hustler. What to me? So she was like, Exactly. She was like, you know, Detroit Historical Museum. And I was like, Oh, wow. I was like, what is it she is like to her? So she's like the hustle, Can you talk about or the ways that you her? So I said, What do you mean is what I do? And she's like, I need you to put it in words. And I'm like, Okay, you give me some time or whatever. So then she nominated me and then by the time y'all had contacted me, I was surprisingly, hopefully chosen. But I was ready to go. So, you know, ready to go because. Being a hustler is literally what I do. Like I wake up, breathe, what can I do? What can I do? What can I accomplished today? So I believe that when I found out about it, it was powerful for me because it's exactly what I do. I defined the Detroit Hustle. If not, nobody else define it. I do.
BWW [00:28:44] When you hear the word hustle, what do you think of what for? What's the first thing that comes to mind?
CC [00:28:49] Bouncin around a Motor City. Making sure orders are fullfiled. Make a show you innovative. Make a show you find out about. The North had its products. Making sure that you are on top. It is reaching out to that person. Calling customers on a birthday. Hey, how you doing it? And I just want to let you know just calling we remember your birthday. Let us know if you need anything. So I think the hustle just carefully doing some counseling, doing something like when I leave you, I got to go do four pickups that we have set up on Friday for the weekend. So it's just a constantly moving, constantly progressing, you know, constantly keep it going. Um, securing, uh, grants to marketing match, doing pitch competitions, making sure that I'm building on my brand awareness embedded in people minds about Bouncin around Motor City, giving back to the community, helping other entrepreneurs make a show. As I go up, I'm steady reaching back and bringing somebody else with me. So I think that's the hustle.
BWW [00:29:46] And what do you think of when you hear the word hustler?
CC [00:29:52] Catherine Coleman. Exactly what I just explained to you. Just doing what I do. Doing. Doing what you do. But loving why you do it. You know, it would be the most exhilarating aspect of your life. And your business will blossom. Because if you are chasing your passion, I. This is my passion. This is what I do. So it becomes second nature to me to get up and do it every day.
BWW [00:30:20] Awesome. Thank you so much for sitting down with us.
CC [00:30:23] Thank you.
BWW [00:30:23] Appreciate it.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Catherine Coleman, August 8th, 2022
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview, Catherine Coleman talks about growing up in a Detroit neighborhood and the creation of her bounce house business.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Detroit Historical Society
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Detroit Historical Society
Language
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en-US
Black Business
Detroit
Entrepreneurship
The Hustle
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Hustle: Black Entrepreneurship in Detroit
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Detroit Historical Society
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Detroit Historical Society
Language
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English-US
Oral History
An audio or video resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Narrator/Interviewee's Name
The current first and last name of the person speaking or being interviewed.
Carl Hollier
Brief Biography
A short biography of the Interviewee
Carl Hollier was born and raised in Detroit, he eventually went into the music industry under the name D.J. Invisible.
Interviewer's Name
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Billy Wall-Winkel
Interview Place
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Detroit, MI
Date
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8/10/2022
Interview Length
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1:20:00
Transcriptionist
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Taylor Claybrook
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
BWW [00:00:01] Hello. My name is Billy Wall-Winkle. This interview is for the Detroit Historical Society's Hustle Project. Today is August 10th, 2022. We are in Detroit, Michigan, and I'm sitting down with–
CH [00:00:14] DJ Invisible.
BWW [00:00:15] You give me your real name, please.
CH [00:00:18] Yes. D.J. Invisible is now my real name. No…my parents named me Carl Hollier.
BWW [00:00:25] Can you please spell that for me?
CH [00:00:26] Carl is spelled C A R L. And my last name is Hollier H O L LIER.
BWW [00:00:34] Thank you so much for that.
CH [00:00:35] Yes, indeed.
BWW [00:00:37] We're going to get some basic things out of the way. Where, where and when were you born?
CH [00:00:41] I was born in Detroit, Michigan, right here at Hutzel Hospital, June 21st, 1974.
BWW [00:00:50] Did you grow up in the city?
CH [00:00:51] Oh, born and raised, yeah. Grew up and my parents, when I was first born, we lived off of St Mary's. We lived on St Mary's off of Grand River over on the West Side.
CH [00:01:01] And about 1979, my parents bought a house in the historic Boston Edison District on Atkinson, right off of Woodward. So I grew up on the, you know, the part that I remember on the North End of Detroit.
BWW [00:01:24] What was it like growing up for you in that neighborhood?
CH [00:01:26] It was awesome. So the...the big old houses in the Boston Edison area are amazing. You know, they're… you don't appreciate them until you move out. I think so. I lived there until I went to college. I went to Eastern, but, through high school, through elementary school. It was amazing. You know, I would… my friends would come over and they would see our big old house and think that we were rich. You know, like. Yes, sure, of course. If that's what you want to think. Yes, of course. But it was good to be in. You know, my dad was a
firefighter. Mom was a social worker. You know, I went to Saint Benedict in Highland Park until fourth grade. And then my parents put us at Shrine of the Little Flower out in Royal Oak, which was an eye opening experience for an inner city kid to be going from a… I was at private school. You know, Saint Benedict's was a private school, but it was mostly middle class African-American kids. And there were you know, there were some white kids and a few Latino kids, but it was mostly. You know, city black kids that were there and then going out to 14… or was it, it was a 12 mile every day. So when I was there, the grade school was at 12 Mile from K to eight. So fifth grade to eighth grade being in a totally different situation. It was…it was eye opening. It was, it was cool and awkward and weird and awesome all at the same time. And I did well there. So I really enjoyed that time in Royal Oak. But come eighth grade, I was done with private school. You know, I never felt as though I had broke the barrier with athletics, and that's what I wanted to do. So my parents sent me to King High School down in the city, and I was in the MSAT program, and the program was math, science and Applied Technology. It was one of the three programs in the city for high school kids that were… that was like a straight college prep. You know, you're going to college, you have no choice. You know, your parents have made this decision for you. It was Cass, King, and Renaissance at that time. And I was trying to be a professional basketball player. You know, I was 6’2, fast, I could jump. And I loved King. It was a great school. I went to Eastern Michigan University after that, didn't… I blew my knees up playing basketball and I went to Eastern for a summer program. Right before I left, my neighbor came home from Tennessee State University, and Marty had given me two turntables and an old mixer, and he was like, You should mess with this. This is fun. And he had been deejaying in college just as a hobby. So he gave me my turntables and I went to school and set them up on my dorm room table. And every opportunity I had, you know, I was kidnapping records from my dad, like seventies records, funk records, you know, jazz records. And I was, you know, just goofing around, playing with his music. And then I started to really have more fun with it, and people started to ask me to play certain songs. So I would go record shopping when I could and get a couple of records. And I was just doing parties in my room for my friends that were on that floor. So that was the beginnings of my, my serious interest in music. And I went straight off course from–
BWW [00:04:52] No, that's not.
CH [00:04:53] Right. But yeah, but you know, I would still be in it Eastern. It was awesome because I was close enough to come home so I would go to school Monday through Friday and come home on the weekends because mom cooked and laundry was free. So, you know, that 30 minute ride to Ypsi was a… it was an often transit for me, but it was also cool because the good record stores were still in the city. We had one record store in Ypsi called Puffer Red's, and that was the spot. But if you wanted to really dig, you had to, you know, get into Buy Right in the city and Record Time out in Roseville. So I really enjoyed being in that proximity at Eastern. It was, you know, just still cruising along with my, you know, studies and playing basketball every other day and spending any and every opportunity I had for anybody that would listen until people started asking if I would deejay an actual party. So first party I got was…my sister was at Cass Tech and she was having an AU basketball fundraiser party. She had asked me to deejay a party. And I am a very confident person who will take on any musical
challenge now. But back then I was a little hesitant. So she asked me to do this party and I said yes, had no speakers, so I borrowed my dad's home sound system, his big Marantz receiver and you know, he had two big, really cool home speakers. And I had two turntables, a mixer and a crate of records. I borrowed his cassette deck and I bought a…losing my train of thought.. What is that thing called? Oh, we don't use them anymore. A CD player. I bought a CD player from Ziedman’s Pawn Shop for like 30 bucks. So I had all this stuff set up on a table and the kids started coming in about 8:00 and I'm playing my records. And from 8 to 9, I was the greatest deejay on earth because I had bought all the hot records right then. About nine, the place got packed. Everybody was having a good time, you know, the pizza was out, pop was out, and candy bars were everywhere. I ran out of records, so I'm like, all right, cool, let's just play some of these cassette tapes. So I was going to go cassette tapes, CDs, and record, just so that I could keep mixing. So I played a cassette tape and at that time it was a song called “ My Cadillac’s Got That Bass”, and my cassette deck was sitting right on top of the receiver, which at this time had gotten hot because I was banging it out. So the tape deck started to drag and the song is going, My Cadillac’s got that bass, bass, bass, [slower] My Cadillac’s got that bass, bass, bass… And the kids thought that it was cool at the time. They were like, oh, he's doing something new until the entire song starts dragging, until it's the tape part and the boos started, you know, kick in quick. So I was like, No problem. Straight to the CD. So the hot song, you know, was “Shake What Ya Mama Gave You”. Shake What Ya Mama gave you is going so keep in mind I bought this used from a pawn shop. The CD player started skipping right on Shake What Ya Mama. So I was like, shake what ya mama shake what ya mama shake, shake, shake. And that actually sounded it was skipping right on beat. And I was like, If it could have gone wrong, this is the way you want it to go wrong. So I'm like, Oh, great, this is gonna give me a chance to, like, get another record together. So I'm struggling, trying to find a record that I played early enough to where most people don't remember I played it. And at that time I looked at and somebody had thrown like a Mountain Dew bottle at me and I'm like, All right, I'm the Matrix. I'm dodging all of this stuff. Pizza hit me in the side of the head and a Kit-Kat bar flew over my head and it was just horrible. So I was able to just go straight records and I just recycled. I was playing B-sides, I was playing number seven on a full album that no one had ever heard before just trying to keep music going. And keep different songs playing but at that point in time, I was like, I have to practice more and I've got to get more records and this will never happen again.
CH [00:09:1] So that is the… That is basically the beginnings of deejay Carl the Invisible Man, which is what I was billed on that flier, the longest name ever. This stuck for years. So that is at the beginning, a story. I know you asked one question and I went left.
BWW [00:09:36] So that was perfect, though, because I was going to be my, my next setup is when did you start? So what year was that party?
CH [00:09:43] That party would have been the summer of 1992. It was funny cause a bunch of my high school friends and my long-time high school friends went to that party, too, you know, because it was a high school party, you know? You know one of my best friends, Mischa, drove me to the party in her parent's minivan, and it was just having your best friend still
tease you about bad parties to this day is the worst. They're like, oh, like she came to one of the Eminem concerts that I did, and I was having the time of my life. You know, I'm walking, I'm floating off stage. I was just…It was such a good show. And she was like, Hey, this is much better than that high school party you got hit upside the head with pizza, but hey, you know why.
BWW [00:10:33] She got to keep you humble?
CH [00:10:34] Oh, I have so many of those friends that it's hilarious. Oh, yeah. So yeah, 92 was the…The beginning and they said my, I wanted to be an athlete. So I had my letterman jacket and my letterman jacket was my… I got it for basketball cause that's what I wanted to do.
So I had a big Jordan on the back of it and they ask you what name you want to put on the bottom of it. So my mom was paying for this jacket and at the time my basketball coach from high school and I were not seeing eye to eye and we were reading The Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison in English class. So my mom was teasing me. Oh, you want to put something on the back? Why don't you put Invisible Man? I was like, Why would I do that? She was like, Because you're invisible on the basketball court. I was like, ow, this is my mother. If it was like my siblings all fell out, my dad's cracking up. And I was like, Okay, that is actually hilarious and that is so true. Hilarious. Let's do it. So my letterman jacket is hanging in my closet in my dorm room, and someone had asked me to deejay a party.
CH [00:11:42] And they were like, Well, what name should we put on the flier? And I was like, I don't know, what do you mean? Like, we got to put a deejay name on the flier to make it seem like it's a legit party. I was like, Oh! And they looked aside and they were like, All right, what about The Invisible Man? And I was like, That sounds dope, that makes sense. It's okay, no one has ever called me that. But let's, let's, let's go with it. And then the flier came out and it said, Deejay Carl the Invisible Man. And I was like, That's me. I like my name so sure. I should have said, just put invisible on it or Invisible Man, because that's stuck from that early 1992 on through college. It was on every college flier. When I got out of college and came back home and started doing nightclubs and parties, I was DJ Carl the Invisible Man, and then when it was abbreviated, it was just Deejay Carl. So there is a whole group of people from, I'd say like 96 to 2001 that still in the city call me DJ Carl. And I’m like nom we've moved on from that. I've, I've done some cooler things since then so yeah. Deejay Carl deejay at Cafe Mahogany in Harmony park from 96, geez say 96, 97 to, 2001. And that was my like after college I'm going to do this time in my career. So I had had I don't know if you want to keep rambling here.
BWW [00:13:22] Okay, no this is great.
CH [00:13:23] All right. So in 96. I came home from Eastern. I had I was at that point, I am 21 years old and I was a new father. So I had,I had to work to make money. And that is where my initial… which I think is awesome the name of this is called The Hustle. That is where my initial hustle really, really kicked in. I started deejaying any and everything possible. If it was offered to me, I said yes. So I was doing weddings, I was doing backyard parties, I was doing picnics.If you had $50 and wanted me to deejay and make you a mixtape, I was going to sit there and make a mixtape. I cruised along doing just really anything. I was deejaying like a
whole lot of weddings. I was deejaying like parties for Alcoholics Anonymous in weird little hole in the walls. I was deejaying at parks. I'd rent a generator and go out to a park into a family reunion. I did that solid for a couple of years, and to be honest with me, in 90… 97 is when Café Mahogany really kicked in for me. And Café Mahogany was a poetry spot in Harmony Park downtown. Like it's right north of where we're. Actually is at north or south. That's right. It's a couple of blocks away from the Tiger Stadium right now where Comerica Park is. And Café Mahogany was a poetry spot that started off as a really small Tuesday gathering in a coffee shop. And it grew to be the biggest poetry spot in the Midwest. So there was a movie called Love Jones. It came out and everybody wanted to be a poet. All the guys wanted to be poets because they could pick up women. And that's, that's what happened in the movie. And so that's what was going to happen in real life. And ladies just love being able to go up and say, you know, the most seductive things and just fully embrace their femininity. And it was beautiful because you had people of all cultures and all backgrounds and everybody would get on the stage and be in the same spot in life.
CH [00:15:44] So I thrived doing that because I had opened up D.J. Carl, the Invisible Man, to a whole nother group of people. A year after that, like late 97 going into 98, they started a after hours hip hop night there. So I do Tuesday poetry night, and then I do this late hip hop after hours. And when I say everybody came through Cafe Mahogany, like the Black Eyed Peas, the Black Eyed Peas early on in their career did a concert and they would come to Cafe Mahogany. Erykah Badu used to hang out at Cafe Mahogany when she was in town and the local group Slum Village, Eminem would come through and freestyle, Royce da 5 '9. These folks would come through just to hang out because it was the place to be for like, you know the cool people. You know, you'd go to the underground battle spots and if you wanted to like get a little classier, you would come hang out and be seen at Cafe Mahogany. So the host of that night was a guy named Fluent and…Fluent was just like so charismatic.
And he would be on stage doing his thing and he would tell silly jokes and then bring poets up. And then I would play a song that was kind of making light of whatever that poet had just said. So guys would come up and talk about how their love had just been lost and how she was the greatest thing that's ever happened. And now she's gone. So then I would play like Michael Jackson “you are not alone”, you know, trying to lighten the mood up. And after a while, I had it figured out I could play a song. No matter what you said on stage, I could play a soundbite from a record right after you got done just to lighten it up. So the crowd was still having a good time and Cafe Mahogany lasted through the late nineties and 2000. You know, the casinos started coming into play and the rent went up, so they had to move out of that building and it really just didn't transition to the new building. They moved over onto Broadway and it was just a different vibe, you know? It just really didn't work out the same. But at one of those Cafe Mahogany events, I was approached by KRS One's manager, and KRS One is like one of the goats of all hip hop. You know, he's an emcee, he's a writer. He's just an awesome guy. You know, he started a I think called it Temple of Hip Hop, which was going to be like the Museum of Hip Hop. And KRS One’s manager approached me and asked me if I would deejay this show for him. He had a show in town and his DJ wasn't able to make the trip. So I was like, Heck yeah, let's go. Yeah. So I show up, we do a rehearsal and he's like, All right, you're good. You got this. We do the show. I killed it. I was on 100% on my own team at that point, out of the greatest D.J. of all
time, I can do anything. So the next KRS One was like, I want you to go on tour with me. This is amazing. You know, next show is Chicago, where the Atheneum Hotel. Be there like tomorrow morning and 9:00 AM. I guess I have it. You know, mind you, my home situation at the time was interesting because I had just moved out of my parents house. I had a loft downtown at Grand River and Griswold. I had the whole third floor view of this building. And the funny thing was that in the late nineties, my rent was $300 a month, and when the casino started kicking in, the owner of the building was like, I'm going to have to raise your rent $100. And we were like, Oh, no, no, no, not to $400. This is terrible. Why are you gouging? So my parents were still trying to figure out how I was going to make it as a deejay. My dad was a firefighter. Every day he would get up and go to work. And when I like, right when I came home from school, I was back at my parents house and every day he would wake me up at 6:00 in the morning, like, you got to go do something. And I was like, I just did something. I literally just got home.
BWW [00:19:48] You were asleep, right?
CH [00:19:49] You were asleep when I came home. And now I don't want to get up. I'm sleeping. So I was like, I got to go. I got to figure out ahead. So I moved downtown into this loft, and so downtown Detroit at that time, in the late nineties, was a ghost town. After 5:00, you could not order a pizza from across the street. So Grand River and Griswold,there was a Domino's directly across the street, which I think now is a coffee house or some upscale, nice little place. But right there at that corner, there was the… it was the ZImco Textiles building which was on Grand River as well. Across the street, it was a parking structure which is still there. Across the street, on the opposite kitty corner was the Grind Adult entertainment ladies strip club. And then across the street from that was like a parking lot, Domino's Pizza and another, like, weird apartment complex. But I couldn't, or I could see Domino's from my window. 5:00, we will not deliver a pizza to you. And they might not even open the door if you went to buy it. It was just rough down there. It was like a ghost town. So anyway, fast forward back to my story so KRS-One who asked me to come to the hotel at 9:00. The tour was going to Chicago. I'm the guy. I'm deejaying let's go. I get there. I got my suitcase, two turntables, my mixer and my backpack on my back. I get to the hotel, I walk in. Everybody's like, is DJ Carl the Invisible Man is here. And I'm like, you know, I'm thinking, this is my oh, this is going to happen for me. My dad dropped me off. He had to come pick me up, load up my gear and drop me off. I get there, walk in. And KRS is like, Carl, let me talk to you for a sec. So I sit down next to him and I'm, you know, young. This is my my shot. He's like, well, we decided to go in a different direction. So what we're going to do is we're going to get the hot deejay from every city just like you, and that'll bring in more people to the show. And I'm like, Yeah, that's a good idea. So are we going to Chicago to find like the other? He was like, No, no, no, no. We're going. We're going to go to Chicago and get another deejay to do what you did here. And I was like, Oh, so you don't need me to go to Chicago? And they were like, Yeah, but thank you, man. You killed it. And I'm like, So what in the hell am I going to do now? Everybody has seen me come in and knows over the hotel staff. Detroit is a small, big city, so I'm like, Yeah, okay, cool. So I'm trying to hold back tears at this point in time.
CH [00:22:26] Right? So I'm sitting there and they're getting ready to go and all the guys are coming up, dapping me up, you know, good job. You did a great job. You killed it last night. So they all get up and they leave, right? So this is before cell phones, before we could afford cell phones. Right. So I had to get up and go get change for a dollar from the front desk to go to the payphone and call my dad. So I call home. And mom was like, yeah, your dad's not back yet, but when he gets back, what do you want me to tell him? Are you, are you, you know, are you at your first rest stop right now? I say, yeah, no just tell Dad to come back and pick me up. Things didn't go the right direction. So Dad came back and help me put my stuff in the car and I sat there and didn't say anything. It is when you know you got a cool dad. He was like, they don't deserve you. I was like that helps. Thank you. Love that. Yeah. So my parents have been ridiculously supportive after that point in time. So fast forward to going back to my nightclub thing, having a blast, killing it. Just, you know, getting all kinds of other ridiculously amazing opportunities. So now I'm starting to get opportunities to open for national acts at the state theater and at Hart Plaza and St Andrew's Hall. And I'm actually… I got the opportunity. I was the deejay at St Andrew's Hall so the previous DJ had a difference in opinion as to where the music should be going. So he had moved on and they brought me in and at the time, I'm like I'm a commercial deejay. I'm playing what the people want to hear. I'm not keeping it real. I want to keep it hustle. I'm hustling. I want my paycheck to show up. I don't want to have arguments with the staff about playing obscure records that kill the dance floor. I want the bar to succeed. I want people to have a good time. And I want people to remember who it was that gave them that good time. So my reputation in the city had turned into that, you know, Oh, he's just a commercial deejay. But I had a car, I had an apartment.
I was paid, feeding my kid. So this time killing it. You know, I'm not rich, but I'm comfortable. You know, that's where I was at, at that time. And so I'm doing St Andrew's Hall and opening for all these different bands. I'm doing The Shelter. I'm doing a bunch of the rap battles. I had done some shows. I deejayed for Royce da 5’9. I deejayed for Eminem at the time. There was a couple other, you know, local rappers that would call me to deejay their shows.
CH [00:25:11] Then in 99, I was doing one of these late night parties. at Cafe Mahogany, and a guy named Champ Town came up to me. So Brian Champtown is a very instrumental part in several big rappers careers in Detroit. Champ Town is one of the reasons Kid Rock became famous. Champ Town is another reason Eminem, you know, got the street cred that he had early on before the record deals. Champtown came up to me and asked me if I would deejay his tour that he had coming up. So he had a very controversial album cover that was Joe C. from Kid Rock fame, who looked like a kid at the time. And he had two scantily clad women and he had his hand on both of their rear ends. And he had that as the cover art on his record. And it was nationally controversial, which is good if you're trying to go on tour, so he had booked… he was an opening act on the Public Enemy. There's a Poison tour. So he came up to me and asked me if I would deejay for his upcoming tour with Public Enemy. And I was like, I don't know. I mean, think about it. This is a big tour that'll be going across the country. You know, I have just been recently dissed on another tour, so heck, yes, I jumped on we were in. It was planes, trains and automobiles on this tour. We were flying from certain cities. We were on tour buses. We had SUVs and vans so I mean, it was amazing. It was…It was my first introduction to a serious music tour. Public Enemy was like the coolest group of people, you
know, that I had ever met as a complete band. Flavor Flav was exactly how you would expect him to be. He was loud. He was wild, he was a whole lot of fun, he was a genuine, nice guy. Chuck D was about his business. He was cool. He was extremely loyal. He remembers your name. He taught me how to tour, and I don't think he knows it. He would tour with one suitcase. Super simple. He had the clothes for stage and like some clothes for off stage and he didn't travel with too much crap, which made his entry and exit really quick. He was always on time for lobby calls and he was in and out. So touring Public Enemy was amazing. That was just a great time in the history of Deejay Invisible’s career. After that, I ended… actually ended up injuring myself goofing off, jumping off of a tour bus and came home was like, Hey so parents about this insurance thing and they were like, Yeah, you're not on our insurance anymore. So my dad told me to apply for the Detroit Fire Department so I applied for the Detroit Fire Department and became a firefighter in like early 2000, which was an interesting change from what I've been doing because I was usually a night owl. I would get up late, go d.j something late, and then get home late and wake up late and you know, wash, rinse and repeat. I would do it again the next day. So the fire department gig, I had to get up at 6:00 in the morning and be somewhere by, you know, quarter to seven.
CH [00:28:38] And I did the fire department training and my dad being a firefighter, it gave me a whole different outlook on training to do something because before that had all been, I got to do this for myself to take care of my little people. So the fire department. It was a different eye opening experience. I had to do good because I wanted my dad's friends to not think that he just gave me the job because I was his kid, you know, or that he got me in this position because I was his kid. So I took the fire department written exam. I did, I did okay on that, I passed. But when it came time for the physical agility stuff, every day I ended up throwing up in a garbage can. I was trying to kill it and break records, and I think I did. I did break the physical agility test record the year that I took it, and I ran straight out and threw up in the trash can and was probably passed out in my car of exhaustion for a little while. But I loved it. I mean, firefighting was probably my favorite job of all time because it was like giving… being in a position where you could be a superhero. You know, you run into burning buildings. Everybody's running out and you're running in, you know, but the blue stuff on the red stuff and get everybody safe. So I loved it, but. I still have this love for music. So the fire department, I would go in and I would work my shifts and then when I had days off, I would schedule parties. So I'm still a deejay and any and everything I can to fit into that space. But I had insurance now, which was awesome. That was a whole…that was a whole New World. I was like wait I can go get glasses like my…this is awesome. So that was where I was like, okay, I'm growing up now. And I started taking my DJ career to a whole different level as well. I started seriously trying to market myself. I started trying to make mixtapes. And right before the fire department thing kicked in, I had signed a record deal with Modern Tribe Records. And I will say nothing but good things about that, that experience. Even though sometimes it sucked, but when you sign a record deal, you should have somebody look at it and you should sign a record deal with somebody that is a…yeah, nevermind. We'll keep this all positive. But that was an interesting experience. I sold a whole lot of mixtapes. It got me national visibility, which turned into international visibility with some of the features that I had on that particular mixtape. I invested a whole lot of my own money into the marketing and promotion of the mixtape. I had features from
Dr. Dre, I had features from Eminem. It's like a laundry list of, you know, any celebrity that came to town. I found them and got some kind of feature from them to put on this mixtape, and that was something that no other Detroit deejay was doing at the time. So the mixtape blew up. It was in every little record store. It was the gas station behind the bulletproof glass. And it's sold a lot. I have no idea where any of the money went but it looked good for deejay Carl, the Invisible Man, to have, you know thousands of mixtapes sold locally and 10,000 sold internationally. So when I got to the fire department, you know, people were like, oh, you know, other firefighters are like, Oh my God, you're your DJ, Carl the Invisible Man. And half the people are like, No, that's Captain Hollier’s son, this dude is like a deejay. So I ended up getting more parties because, you know, just because the firefighters had parties. So I was there just enjoying where I was at in life with deejaying nonstop being a firefighter. Then I started my my little family grew and I got married and I got injured fighting a fire. So ran into a fire and there was a flash over that injured and retired three of us and a couple other people were just injured and ended up being able to go back to work. But the captain and another senior firefighter of mine, we were all retired from that fire.
BWW [00:33:25] What year was that?
CH [00:33:26] That was 2002. Yeah. 2002 was the end of my fire department career. I tried to go back a couple of times, and the doctors were like, Yeah, no. They were going to put pins in my wrists and fuse bones together so that I would have the Miss America permanent wave. And I was like, I wouldn't be able to pick my kid up. So I passed and they, they retired me. And that was like super depressing because I loved that job. So at the time, one of my cousins who I have been in touch with since we were, you know, super small, he moved out of Detroit when he was nine. Excuse me. My cousin Alvin moved to New Mexico and he would call me and he would rap on the phone. He's like, Hey, Carl I got this new rap. And I would sit and listen to raps on the phone. And this is like all through, like eighth grade, all the way through high school. He would call and just rap on the phone. What do you think about that one? I was like, that was not good. That was dope, you know? So I got this back and forth every night in my mouth. Hey, Carl. Alvin's on the phone, and I go listen to raps on the phone, which was cool. So fast forward to, you know, this is like 2000, late 2000…or no, early 2002. I got a cast on my wrist. I'm bummed as I can't be a good deejay right now. Mind you, I was still doing parties I just couldn't scratch, I had this big wacky cast on and I was having multiple surgeries to put pins in and take pins out. So one day I'll have a cast on that was elbow to my fingertips. The next day I would have a cast on that. I would have just barely a fingertip showing and pins and rods and looking like Edward Scissorhands. So yeah, I got a call from another cousin of mine, said, Hey, you should come up to Em’s studio, studio 54 up on a nine mile. So I went, I think it's Studio 54 is the name of it, but Eminem Studios on Nine Mile in Ferndale. I went up to the studio and I walk in and the first person I saw was Busta Rhymes. Redman was there, Eminem's winding around, all my D12 friends were there. And like, I grew up with Eminem's deejay name, Kevin Bell, D.J. Head. He's like, Oh, Carl, what are you doing here? I'm like, Oh, my cousin Al called me up. He was like, Oh, welcome. So everywhere you turn, there was some awesome rapper wandering around and my cousin Alvin was there and his name is Xzibit, so Xzibit walks up to me and he's like, Carl, what are you doing this summer? And I was like, Nothing, man. The fire
department retired me. I am you know outta work right now. He was like, You're still deejaying, right? I was like, Yeah, you know. I'm still a deejaying because on the Public Enemy tour, we did the House of Blues out there and the part of his crew was at the show, and they were calling him, telling him, Your cousin is out here, we're public enemy. So he was like, he asked me if I wanted to go on tour with him. I said, What were you going on? He was like, The Eminem tour. We're getting ready for it right now. You want to go? I was like heck yes, I don’t have anything else to do. Let's go. And he was like, No, I want you to be my DJ. And I was like. Yes. So I did the whole “let me think about it for about a fraction of a second”. Then I said yes. And that changed my entire life right there. So he told me to talk to management. And at the time his manager was Paul Rosenberg, who was Eminem's manager. So they set up my flights. I went to L.A. We did rehearsals for you know, the… let's see, that would have been yeah, that was the winter into spring of 2002. So I flew to L.A. in May and was gone from May to August. So we did rehearsals and then we did that tour that entire summer, and we were ready to keep going in August. But Em decided he was going to not take any more tour dates on because he wanted to take his daughter to school for the first day of school in September. But that's where it was amazing. Like the last day of rehearsals. We get to this big soundstage and we pull up in one of Xzibit’s ridiculous cars and I'm getting ready to jump out. And I look in and I see this big house that was constructed inside of this big soundstage.
CH [00:38:19] And you can hear the music playing. And they were filming one of Em’s videos. So I'm excited to get out and see everybody before you know the video. I'm getting ready to jump out and there's a Ferrari sitting right next to the car that big, so awesome silver Ferrari open a door and a bouncer comes up and he's looking at me and I'm looking at him and he's like, Close the door. And I tell him to get out because the door is… I'll open the door for you. So he comes around. This dude is just guarding Dr. Dre Ferrari, right? So he opens the door so I can squeeze my big butt out of it. I get out and go in and Alvin introduces me to Dr. Dre and I'm like, Yeah, we met at St Andrew's Hall. He didn't remember me at all. But he's like, Oh, okay, yeah. Which was awesome. But he was like, This is my cousin Carl. He's my DJ now. And he was like, All right, all right, you ready for this? And I was like, Man, I was born ready for this. And he was like, nobody was born ready for this. Are you ready? It was like, yeah, man. I’m, I am let's go is going to be, you know, amazing. He was like, okay, we'll see. We'll see. So I was like our challenge of Dr. Dre now. So after a couple of rehearsals, Dre came up to me and gave me the nod. He was like, Okay, I see you up there. I see you Detroit. Because I would every every time I spin, I have my Tigers hat on. I am 100% represented but it was just an amazing transition from being a kid that deejays, nightclubs and parties and is in that daily grind to every day you're on a different stage. Every day you see different people. Every day is a new experience and with a new crowd. And I mean, that tour lasted through the summer. And as soon as that tour was over, I was like, Oh my God, this was the greatest time in my life. And I was ready to shut it down. I was like, Thank you for bringing me on a tour. You know, I'm thinking some other deejays are getting ready to jump back in. And he he was like, all right. Well, the last day of the tour was, we had two shows here in Detroit at the Palace of Auburn Hills. And one show I wore my Lakers, I had a Lakers jersey that had DJ invisible on the back. I had DJ invisible on the back and I had a Pistons jersey that had DJ invisible on the back. So I'm rocking my, my Pistons and my Lakers gear back and forth because I'm deejaying for a West
Coast rapper, but I'm the Detroit guy. The last show in Detroit, I had been approached by his manager, and his manager came up. I was like, All right, well, we go to Europe next week, so get all your stuff together you need from Europe and give me your tech rider and get whatever gear you need because we're getting ready to head overseas.
CH [00:40:57] I was like yeah. I mean, this is still happening. This is crazy. This is the way. So I'm going to Europe now and they're like, yeah, you're Xzibit’s DJ. We have to go do more shows. You're not done yet. And I was like, Oh God, this is great. So, oh my goodness. I went home for a week and you couldn't tell me anything. It was like I was at the time, I had started to learn how to market myself better. So I had not bought that entire summer. I hadn't bought clothes. I hadn't bought shoes. I was being given everything. So I'm like, Oh, this is rich people stay rich.You know, buy anything you just call a company and ask them for it. I had the NBA sending me jerseys. I had Apple computers giving me computers.
So it was amazing. I was like, This ride is still happening. So I went home for a week and got my passport together and and headed to Europe, which was deejaying on a whole nother level. The music appreciation that I was experiencing overseas was one thing, but when you grow up at Woodward and Clairmount and you see Northern High School is the biggest building in your block and you look in the tallest building you can see in your neighborhood is the Fisher Building. That's pretty cool. Fisher Building's an amazing building. But when you get to Paris and you see the Eiffel Tower for the first time in real life, and you can't stop staring at it and you go and spend an entire you blow a whole day at the Eiffel Tower just because you've been seeing it and reading about it in books your entire life. I mean, my entire world had changed. All I wanted to do was travel and see the stuff that I had been taught and read about in books. So every time we got to a different city, you couldn't find Carl for the first day if we had a day off. I was seeing something. You know, we’re in Germany. I was seeing all the big monuments, you know, in in Amsterdam. I am wandering around everywhere that you could see the red light district got to see it. Let's go. You know, it was just an amazing opportunity. And I started to notice that wherever you go in the world, you tell somebody from…you're from Detroit and they either know somebody or they've got a Detroit story, or they're that three degrees of separation away from something Detroit, you know. So that was just an awesome experience which would take me into probably nonstop touring through 2007. So we toured wiith Eminem to 2005 and then we did Linkin Park for a year, that took us around the world. You know, we did the 2007, I think, was the World Earth Day thing we did with an Al Gore hologram and, you know, performing in Japan with Rihanna. Geez, there's a laundry list of people that I've opened for with Xzibit and then by myself. But yeah, it's just awesome eye opening experiences through 27 in 2008. I ended up touring with another local rapper, or locally based artist named Mike Ellison, and Mike at the time had gotten hooked up with the American Cancer Society. And Mike took me on that tour and it was geez probably on and off for the better part of three years excuse me, doing a campus invasion style tour.
So we would go to a school and we would set up, you know, anti tobacco you know, posters. And we would go to the cafeterias and put up banners and then have a big concert at the end of the day or two that we were there. And that was sponsored by the American Cancer Society. And it was an awesome transition from being somebody's backup deejay. You know, I'm the deejay on stage. I'm one of two or three people on stage, but my name's not in lights. And doing
this American Cancer Society thing, Mike made sure that all of us got billing. So that was really cool. So that lasted for, you know, I'd say til 2011. And then Xzibit called me back and was like he was doing movies and he had taken some time off to do movies and TV shows and he called me back and was like Carl, we got to get back on the road. So 2011, we were back at it, you know, and we went back at it hard. It was like straight back to Europe, you know, we did the Cannes music, our Cannes film festival and. That being in the south of France, I was like, This is amazing. Glad I'm here. Can't afford to do anything. Glad I saw it. Gotta the hell out of here. Yeah, but, you know, it's not music. Can't afford to eat here. This is ridiculous. Like, the guy picked us up from the airport in a Lamborghini Huracan. That is a his is $1,000,000 car. I was like I have equipment. What are you doing? And he's like, no, no, no, no. Somebody else will get it. And he had this dude put the equipment in the back of some ridiculously big giant Rolls Royce. And he just shoves the equipment in the Rolls Royce like it was an SUV and was like, you want to drive? Like, No, it was crazy.
BWW [00:46:17] I will not be responsible for this.
CH [00:46:19] My insurance…my progressive will not cover your million dollar car. No, I don't want to drive. But it was crazy stuff like that that would just happen you know, I love cars and this is surreal. This dude is picking us out from the airport in this ridiculous car. But 2011, we're back full throttle. We're back on the road. And we're doing, you know, 30 shows in like 40 days in Europe, you know, just bouncing around just here, there, everywhere. And it was amazing. I'd never fallen out of love with with touring. It is you know, I love coming home and bringing my collection of money that I have from all over the world, putting it in my little stack of, you know, I have I have currency that doesn't exist anymore now that the euro is around. But it just helps remind me of some of the cool things that I've done. I had a big poster that I had framed and I would put pushpins in all the countries I've been to. And it's old enough now to where some of the countries have changed names. And then the kids also started taking the pushpins out and putting them in other places. So I was like, I have never been there, why is this push pin there? And my daughter's like that's a pretty color. I'm like, thanks, kid. So, you know I'm a big collector, so I have masks from African countries and South American countries that I have on a wall at home. I try and bring something cool back from everywhere I go, so that cruises me along until 2015 when I got a call from a rapper named Mahogany Jones. So Mahogany Jones had asked me if I would go to Pakistan and Madagascar with her and another singer named JC Capri. Mahogany is from New York. And I was like, Yeah, you know, I'm a hired gun. Let's go, what are we going to Pakistan and Madagascar for? Tt was a little off the beaten path going to places. And she said, Well, I'm doing a program with the State Department called the American Music Abroad Program. And the American Music Abroad Program takes U.S. artists on diplomatic missions around the world to smaller countries to do cultural diplomacy, music and cultural diplomacy. So I was like, Yeah. lets… Yeah, it sounds interesting and different.
CH [00:48:43] So I had to get my passport to her and found out that my passport was going to expire while I was gone. And then she's like, No problem. She put me in touch with
some. The people in charge just sent me a letter that they were like, Take this letter to the passport office and just give it to them and you'll be fine. And I was like, okay, whatever.
BWW [00:49:05] Proves it doesn't take eight weeks.
CH [00:49:06] It does not take eight weeks. So I took my, the letter, my passport and walked out with a new passport. I was like, this is the most balliness job I've ever had. Let's go. So I go to the you know, we do some rehearsals or whatever, and I fall in love with the music that she's doing and which really helps. So I've done, I’ve deejayed for a bunch of different people. And when you deejay for somebody and don't like their music, it kind of stinks. But I mean, her energy was crazy, so this was great. So I ended up going to the first stop was Madagascar and the only reference I had was the movies. So I'm like, Oh my God, it's going to be lemurs everywhere. And they were like, Yes, we're going to go on a lemur adventure. So being the goofy person I am, I had like trail boots and I've got khakis and I got my, pretty much looked like Crocodile Dundee and I was like, okay, I will be wearing that. I had this. I looked ridiculous, but I was having fun, you know. So I get there and we go on this lemur walk and we see the lemurs. And that was like early on in our trip. And then we started doing the work and the work was doing workshops and performances and collaborating with local artists, and that was music on a whole nother level to me. So I fell in love with that, that concept. So we did Madagascar and then we went into Pakistan and you know, all of the things that you hear about Pakistan. With the, you know, it being somewhat of a dangerous place for Americans. And we had security briefings and it was, the security briefings were more terrifying than anything else. And but when I got there, I was like, the people are nice. The food is amazing, you know? It did not seem as bad as they would have made it sound.
But I'm like, better safe than sorry. I'll come back here any day of the week, though, and I will eat my way through Pakistan. This is great. So we did. That was a good three weeks of being Madagascar and Pakistan and then coming back home and, you know, doing some one offs with Xzibit still and then I, you know, I had, geez from 2015 to the current time. I've done several trips with the State Department doing cultural diplomacy. I'm now a United States music and culture ambassador. So I'm doing a cultural diplomacy for the government, which is amazing, something I think I have bragging rights and none of my other friends can say that. In the music industry are that are deejays. So I've done Kazakhstan. I've been to Thailand. I've been to India. Let's backtrack just a little bit in 2020, right when the world was breaking, I was supposed to be going on Snoop's tour with D12 and Obi Trice. The world broke and then I got a call from American Voices, which runs the State Department's programs. And my friend Jacob calls and he's like, Carl, I need you to do a virtual program, you know, a virtual deejay program. So we did a virtual deejay program with Uganda and Ambassador Natalie Brown. You know, she was spearheading this whole let's keep engagement with the youth of the youth of Uganda through this. You know, shutdown. You know, the kids can't get out here. The kids can't get out there. Let's figure out some way to stay in touch and keep them engaged. So this Uganda program was like the very first virtual academy. So there was me and a beatboxer and we had let's see, we had some singer songwriters. And it was it was amazing. But I had to figure out how to be a virtual deejay now. So at home, I invested in some more gear, which is always fun to do. I had I got myself a black magic switcher and I've got a four channel camera set up in my house. And I
turned the one of the rooms of my house into a full television studio. So when I would have virtual programming, I would have my son sit down as my engineer to change camera so I could go from my overhead camera to my front camera to the over-the-shoulder camera. And then I would have a third, excuse me a fourth input showing my actual computer screen. So my son got fully involved in my whole little process here, and I would pay him 50 bucks to be my engineer. So it was, you know, it was transitioning into something else, but it was always trying to stay busy. Like when the world brought a whole lot of people just decided to sit down like, Oh, there's nothing to do. But I was always trying to find something to do. Like, I will always say yes to any of these programs because if nothing else, it's a cool challenge. You know, it might not make a whole lot of money, but as long as I'm not losing, you know, there's still some kind of win involved in it.
So we did virtual programming through 2020 into let's see, are 2020 into 21 when things started opening up. And then in 22 I was offered a tour through India and one of the heads asked me if I was interested in putting my own tour together. I was like, Yeah, what kind of tour is this. And she told me that the Indian consulate wants you to put together a hip hop tour through India and we're going to hit the big cities. So I called five of my friends. I called Miss Corona, who is a Detroit based M.C., who was in the Eminem movie in India. They had their bassline for hip hop is Eight Mile. So, you know, in this in the States here we have movies dating back into the, you know, early eighties. But them it was that eight mile movie was like, oh, this is what hip hop is. So I was like, this is perfect. My friend is Ms.. Corona, I'll call her. She was in the lunchbox scene at the beginning of the movie. I call my friend Richie the robot Steiner, who was a beatboxer who was on America's Got Talent or something like that. And I need a breakdancer. I called my friend Strings, who is from Detroit, but he wouldn't be able to go because he was going to L.A. to be in a battle. So we looked around and I thought about other people that I worked with. So I called Hans Pierre, who is a breakdancer, a modern dancer. He does everything, and he's from L.A.. So I called Hans, asked him to get down, and then one of my good friends from a band that I'm in called the Black Bottom Collective, Khary Kimani Turner. I called Khary. I was like, Hey, I know you got, like a real job, but by any chance, would you be interested in going on a three week stage tour with me through India? So he was able to work it out with, he works for the Coleman Young Foundation now. So he was able to knock the dust off and he came back and killed every show. So I took a group of my friends on tour as The Invisibles through India for three and a half weeks. And we did five shows… We did. Chennai, Chandigarh, Hyderabad, Goa and geez. There's one other city that we did… Mumbai or Delhi, no we didn't do... We didn't…. We flew into Delhi. Oh, geez. It'll come to me in a second. But so we did these big five shows and we were on Indian national television. And the one show that we did, there were 10 million viewers and it went viral in India. So that was amazing. We did some food blogs that have gone viral. That was just an amazing opportunity. And for me to be able to take some of my friends with me made it that much more fulfilling. You know, every day instead of looking up and seeing somebody had brought me along, you know, feeling good that like, oh, I was able to bring my friends with me. It was like one of the coolest experiences ever. So like three and a half weeks of that. And then, you know, going on to do another academy in Nigeria and coming home to see my daughters play and then flying right back out to, you know, Uganda to do a live academy with the same participants that two years later were on our virtual academy was amazing, you know? So I've been really blessed to be confident enough to say
yes to so many different things. And I'm having all these, like, wacky, surreal experiences. They just keep happening. Yeah. To get the call to do this was like, you know, when you're an artist from a city, you want to be recognized in that city. Like right.
CH [00:58:26] Now, I am internationally popular and famous and these weird, strange nooks and crannies of the world and home people know who I am. But to be recognized and appreciated for all the crazy hustle and hard work is really, really cool. So. Now, if you if you have any questions outside of that. I know I've rambled and I will just keep rambling or pushing out.
BWW [00:58:48] So the question is, at the forefront of my mind right now is that you mentioned earlier when as you were going around the world, everyone had a Detroit story or had that third degree of separation. How does it feel now that you are the Detroit connection for so many people around the world?
CH [00:59:03] That was amazing. So it's really cool. One of the funny stories is the…No, let's see, let's go back to find…I don’t know, people think of Detroit as the Motown city, you know, and as the techno city. So when I get to an airport and people are like, Oh, so-and-so was just here, you know, are you? What do you do? I'm like, I'm. Yeah, I'm DJ invisible. Right, right. Do you play techno too, like now? No. I mostly spin hip hop. But that's the thing. When you're a Detroit deejay, you have to be able to spin everything. Like, if you're, you know, the big techno guys, they don't have to spin anything but techno because that's where they became popular and famous and they made the music. So they're just spinning the music that they'd make so they don't have to veer outside of the box. But if you ask one of those guys to spin hip hop, they will spin hip hop with the best of them because they are a Detroit deejay, and they have to know how to mix to be able to to do what they do. So the cool part of being a deejay from Detroit is I was in Russia and I'm on stage and, you know, we had done Xzibit’s show and I'm just up there goofing off with the local deejay and there's thousands of people standing in front of us. And I got my laptop so I can play anything. He's banging out, you know, dance music and techno. And every now and then he would throw in like a random eighties pop song and the crowd would go nuts. And I'm like, Oh, this is amazing. Stop it. Let's go here. So I got my turntables here some scratch it, and then I would mix in an awesome Dre song like and or mixing, you know Amir Stine's A Day Without A Rhyme. Right. And a crowd would go nuts. They've never heard it before. So I started mixing in random Detroit songs. I played Aretha Franklin R-E-S-P-E-C-T at 3:00 in the morning. In Moscow and got the crowd to go bananas. The appreciation for music in Detroit. Music is Is mind blowing, you know. Playing My Girl at a nightclub in Amsterdam. And everybody was, you know loving it. People are singing it. You know, you throw another a breakbeat under the bottom and you're mixing and [mimicking beatboxing sounds] you hear everybody like just know the lyrics of the song, you know, like Detroit music is ingrained in everybody's soul and people that don't even know that it's necessarily Detroit know the songs. You know, which is really, really cool. Generations after the solid Motown era, people know that music. And then when you tell them you're from Detroit, it's hilarious that they're like, Oh, do you know so-and-so? Like, No, I, you know, I just so happened to know Eminem from the nineties, you know, in our touring in the early 2000s. But people think of Detroit as that small city like they
they know that the music from this era or from the the older era or whatever, and you tell them you're from Detroit, you're like, Oh, do you know so-and-so? And I’m like…And you start thinking about as I do that too, you know, you meet somebody from, you know L.A. you're like, Oh, do you know so-and-so? No, the city is humongous, you know. So it's it's a it's a really cool the Detroit hat. The Detroit D is is also the the biggest Don't Mess With Me card. We were in Paris right after some of Jay-Z's crew had been robbed for their jewelry, for walking through the hood, you know, being disrespectful to the people. So we just so happened to be in Paris and made a wrong turn and some some big rough dudes came up. And instead of doing the whole puff your chest out, you know, I'm from New York thing like they had done. I walked up to the dude was like, what's going on, man? I'm from Detroit. You know, you know, where where should we go eat? You know what's what's good? What have no. And they're like, oh, and those dudes, to this day, when I go to Paris, I reach out to that group of people like, hey, it's our what's what's going on? Where should we go hang out? You know, it was there's a Detroit confidence and a Detroit air that we carry that is just edgy enough. And Detroit has just edgy enough of a reputation to where people don't want to mess with you because they've heard it is super tough. But there is also air of respect that you get right off the bat before you say anything. So as long as you don't screw it up, you know, then you're good. You know.
BWW [01:03:53] My dad looks like Santa, and he travels a lot, travels the country to work. And he was working in a place and someone just off the cuff as like, oh, where are you from? I'm from Detroit. And he said by the time he left that building, at the end of it, everyone in the building knew he was from Detroit.
CH [01:04:09] Right.
BWW [01:04:11] And they were like, Yeah, back off. He's like, I look like I'm fine right now. I look like Santa.
CH [01:04:18] It is weird. It's so weird. So my friends had been teasing me that I do not sound like a hip hop deejay. Like when we're just out and about, they're like, You sound like somebody's schoolteacher. You know you are. I don't know. Not tough at all. And would you tell somebody from Detroit and it doesn't matter. Like, when I get on stage, I am loud and obnoxious and I am screaming and shouting and hands in the air. And I am DJ invisible from the time the lights go on to the time the lights go off. But as soon as I walk offstage, I'm Carl again. And Carl is goofy and Carl's tells bad jokes. I tell Dad jokes. Like it's my second language.Might be my first language now. But you tell somebody you're from Detroit, and those dad jokes instantly become like, way cooler. Like hell yeah, kids don't understand. So I've taken my son with me on tour before, and he rolls his eyes nonstop that people laugh at my dad jokes. He's like, It's not funny. Why? He's going to come home and do this to us, stop laughing at these things. Yeah, it's just. It's really cool being, being from Detroit is something that I carry with me, you know, as a badge of honor. You know, I have I'm currently wearing my Spirit of Detroit Award from 1984. You know, it's it's it's a really proud feeling. So. And another thing like when I'm at a state-lier affair, you know, I can't wear my Tigers hat. So, you know, I have my little spirit of Detroit pin on
and somebody will come up. Oh, you're from Detroit, you know. Oh, do you know so and so? And I probably said, oh, yeah, it is that smaller city here. Yeah.
BWW [01:06:01] When you went to work for the fire department, did you consider that or music to be your side hustle?
CH [01:06:10] Well, I dove into the fire department, like, 100%. I was proud it was my dad's job. And I look up to my dad as the greatest dad of all times. You know, he's the one that introduced me to the idea of making mixtapes. Yeah. We would take these big family trips down south in our Volkswagen Westphalia pop top van and Dad would have mixtapes made. So, you know, anything and everything that he did, I looked up To. So when he joined or when he. You know, pushed me in the direction of the fire department, I wanted to make him proud. So I was a firefighter first, and then I was a deejay second. But that the cool thing was that the fire Department schedule allowed me to seamlessly do both of them. So, I mean, it was just some days I would have rough days at the engine house and have to sleep until I went on stage. You know, but yeah, I still miss…the guys on tour started calling me D.J. Fire Face. Because right after. That was another injury that I had coming out of the fire department. I had burned my scalp. So I am in Xzibit video for “The Symphony in X major” and it is the Symphony in X Major. It was a video that we had where we were dressing up like some kind of mercenary, and we were fighting this karate master who had a TV show, cooking TV show. I can't remember his name, right, the bat. But, you know, we're in wardrobe and we're getting our outfits on. And the hair and makeup lady comes up to me and she's like did you get a bad haircut? And I was like, No, ma'am. I was a firefighter last year, and I burned my scalp. So it looks like I had like this big cowlick right here. And she was like, oh, so why don't you just cut all your hair off? And I was like, No, I got you. And they started teasing me, calling me Fire. Face. And that stuck to this day. So I'll be out somewhere and we'll be at a big festival gig and somebody that was around that stretch of time, aww fire face and I'm like, Dammit, I hate you. So it's, it's awesome having that experience and then having it here. I ran at the same engine house my dad did, you know I was at Engine 40 over on Dexter and Ewald Circle. And being at the same firehouse that my father was, that made it so much cooler. You know, I ran with some of the same guys that he did. I was embraced. I thought that it was going to be an uphill battle. But, you know, that was one of the greatest experiences of my life. And I would still go back if I could pass a physical agility test in a heartbeat. Yeah. So great time.
BWW [01:09:06] What would you say to folks that want to get started today?
CH [01:09:11] In music. Yeah, yeah, that definitely. I think that music is one of the most amazing jobs that you can have if you have. I would start off with a backup plan as well. I would not quit your day job. But if you want to do it and you want to be successful at it, you have to take it on with a hunger and a passion that you have had for nothing else. If you want to be successful, there are people to start right now and unfortunately there are enough people that strike gold instantly that it makes everyone else feel like they don't have to do the same amount of hard work that the majority of the people have done to be successful. So that's just. I guess that's the same with a whole lot of other careers. Every now and then you hear some story
about somebody that made one song in their bathroom and it became a YouTube viral sensation. And now they've made millions. Yeah, that happens. Somebody also hits the lottery. You know, every day. And that's why people spend millions and millions of dollars on lottery tickets. So if you want to be successful in music, you have to have a hunger and a passion for it that you can't lose from day to day. You know, if you want it, you have to know that you're the best at it and you have to go into every opportunity like that is an audition for the next opportunity. And you can't expect that that next opportunity is going to be it. So you have to go into that with even more hunger and you have to stay hungry and ambitious and you have to be willing to think outside the box. Then you have to think of what you want your career to be. You know, you have to envision it. You have to set goals. It's it's a busy job. You know, every day I get up and I don't work for anybody. I work for myself. You know? So every day I get up, I have to go to my desk and figure out what I can do that day. If I am not hired by somebody else, what I can accomplish that day to be successful as DJ Invisible. You know, Invisible Entertainment is my company. I do something for invisible entertainment every day. If it's just some marketing thing, buying an ad on social media figuring out my next business card, figuring out my next, you know, it's I'll sit down and record something. You know, just you always have to stay hungry and busy if you want to be successful at it is not easy, you know? And the music business is not the same as it was in the past. You know, my son, I got him involved. He's a lover of music. He put out a record. And he's had over a thousand streams. He got 1000 streams really quick. Then it kind of fizzled off. And then he looked at the amount of money that he made off those thousand streams and could not put money in a parking meter. So the money is not in the sales of the music right now. The money is in. You got to figure out how to get out there and perform for people and make that money yourself. So it's this it's a different world of music right now, but it's still. To me, it's amazingly fulfilling. When I get on stage and I say, Put your hands up and everybody's hands go up. You know, I get on stage and I see people laughing and smiling and having a good time and dancing and moving or sitting down and nodding their heads and moving. I win. I'm successful. That's all I need. Right. So it's a it's an interesting feeling. Somebody that was not a big dancer, you know, I get to go to parties now and make people happy. You know, that is my that is my ticket to in. I mean, I can dance now, but my my ticket to the parties is me being able to go and make people have a good time. You know, when the when the economy had crashed and everybody was bummed out. My industry thrive. People still need to get out and have a good time. You just don't charge them as much to get in the door. You still got to make money, but. People need an outlet. People need to go and have a good time and move around and socialize. And music is like one of the greatest ways to do that, you know? And I'm lucky enough to be in the the world of noise making know, which is really, really cool. It's funny in the I got asked to do the Ambassadors 4th of July party at the Ugandan embassy or to me the Ugandan ambassador from the United States, Ambassador Natalie Brown, had asked me to do her 4th of July party and that is one of the biggest honors, because 4th of July parties at embassies and and for ambassadors, that's their big thing every year. So the second party that we had done there were people that they said had never spoken to each other. They were ambassadors and dignitaries and diplomats from countries that were not speaking diplomatically, but were dancing together. So I look at it like I could have possibly. Done some good here. I got people to dance and move because they like the music that I was playing. So music is it's it sounds silly to say it because people say it all the time, but it is an
international language. I can go and stand behind my turntables and talk to another deejay without being able to speak the same language. You know, I can stand up behind the turntables and another deejay and I can play back and forth and he can play his style of music and I can play mine. And we can both control the dance floor and show people a good time. So it feels really good. You know that Detroit guy out here making music and having fun, you know, internationally and its awesome.
BWW [01:14:57] That is great. I have two very quick questions and then we're going to wrap it up.
CH [01:15:01] I will probably have two unnecessarily long answers.
BWW [01:15:03] Oh, no. you’re good. When you think of the word hustle… or hear the word hustle, what do you what comes to mind?
CH [01:15:13] Well, it's kind of hard to describe. Hustle to me. Hustle is like, you know, you are you're making it happen. You are working. You are hard working. You know, you are working to make it happen and you are trying to monetize. And become successful with whatever it is you do. So my daily hustle is to be the most successful deejay invisible possible because I have kids to take care of. You know, that is my hustle. That is that is kind of what defines me. I am a husband. I am a father, and I have to support these people. So I have to get out here and do what it takes to make that happen. You know, making my kids right now are my, my, my reason to hustle. You know, my wife is my reason to hustle. My family, that is my reason to hustle. So I go and work extremely hard every day to make sure that happens. And I think that people look at deejays and musicians as not a real job. You know, you tell somebody that you're a deejay. And like, oh, cool, what else do you do? And I used to take offense to that. I got my kids…my daughter, my one daughter at Mercy right now. And the other daughter is she'll be a freshman in Mercy coming up. But when all my kids were in private school at the same school, we would go to events and have people say, oh, what do you do? I'm [da-da-da] this, that, and the other. What do you do, Carl? If they're not on social media, they're like, you know, you're a deejay. Oh, cool. That's that's fun. What else do you do? I like no. I travel the world internationally as a deejay. I've been doing this for 30 years and I've toured with some of the biggest artists in the world but you can't say that because then you're name dropping jerk. Right? So I just let it go. You know, I got to a point where I just let it go. I can sit in a room of doctors and lawyers and people that have, you know, more letters and initials behind their name and carry on the same conversation that they're in because of the experiences that I've had hustling as a deejay, you know.I have done a little of everything and I am proud of it. And I have made my parents proud enough to say ohh, yeah, my son is a deejay. And then their friends will ask them, Oh, well, what else does he do? And I let them figure that out. But yeah, hustling is it's a Detroit thing. You know, Detroit is a city known for hustlers, be it good or bad. You know, I think early on in the word, it might have had a negative kind of feel to it, like, oh, he's a hustler, or he's just trying to get over like now. Yeah, I was just trying to make it, you know, when you're hustling and you don't have anything, you're just trying to make it. And then if you stop hustling and you get lethargic and you start slowing down, then you get stagnant and you're not making
it anymore. You know, if you've gotten rich and you don't want to do it anymore, that's one thing. But I think as long as I am having a good time and I am enjoying, you know, spending records and making noise and making people happy, my hustle continues and I'm about this hustle. I love it.
It is it is a hunger that I have to feed every day, you know, getting on stage or getting behind my computer, talking to people and interacting, you know, it's just it's amazing, you know? It is so much fun. Yeah. Once again, one of the long, invisible answers.
BWW [01:18:31] That was great because my second question is like, what do you think of when you hear the word hustler? Because for so many people, I've had a few people we interviewed already go, oh, I hustle every day, but don't call me a hustler.
CH [01:18:42] Oh, please, you call me a hustler. It's the way you say it. Just with anything. You know, I'm a hustler. I am not hustling you. I am hustling my my music. I am out here. I am getting up every day, and I am tying my shoes up, putting my belt on, going out. And I am going to hustle up on some money by spinning records. I'm going to hustle up on some money by renting a sound system. You know, I've got a sound and lighting company. I am going to drop that when I can. You know, it's if if you got something that needs noise made or you have a show coming up where you need lighting. I'm going to hustle up on that opportunity to be your sound and lighting provider. You know, you need a deejay to do a party. Yeah, I'm not going to throw it to somebody else right off the bat. I'm going to see if I can hustle up on that gig myself. You know, tomorrow I'll be at the Royal Oak Festival in the street. You know, I hustle up on a cool gig and I love it. You know, there's a negative way to say it and there's a positive way to say it just with a whole lot of things. You know, I am not hustling anybody negatively. I am hustling for your business. That is the way I look at it. So, yes, Deejay Invisible is a hustler out here in the street enjoying being a musical hustler. Let's go.
BWW [01:19:56] That was fantastic. Thank you so much.
CH [01:19:57] Oh, no. Thanks for having me.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Carl Hollier August 10th, 2022
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview, Carl Hollier talks about being born in Detroit and how that shaped him growing up.
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
Rights
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Detroit Historical Society
Language
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en-US
Black Business
Detroit
Entrepreneurship
The Hustle
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Hustle: Black Entrepreneurship in Detroit
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Detroit Historical Society
Rights
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Detroit Historical Society
Language
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English-US
Oral History
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Narrator/Interviewee's Name
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Nya Marshall
Brief Biography
A short biography of the Interviewee
Nya Marshall is a Detroit native that tells her story of growing up in both the east and westside communities before creating her business.
Interviewer's Name
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Billy Wall-Winkel
Interview Place
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Detroit Historical Society
Date
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8/23/2022
Interview Length
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41:30
Transcriptionist
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Taylor Claybrook
Transcription
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Billy Wall-Winkel: Right? Yes. Okay. Hello. My name is Billy Wall Winkel This interview is for the Detroit Historical Society's Hustle Project. Today is August 23rd, 2022. Tuesday, we are in Detroit, Michigan, and I'm sitting down with nightmare. So can you please spell your name for me in.
Nya Marshall: N-Y-A M-A-R-A-S-H-A-L L
Billy Wall-Winkel: Thank you so much for sending me.
Nya Marshall: Thank you for having me. So exciting.
Billy Wall-Winkel: What is the name of your business?
Nya Marshall: So I own a couple businesses. What I'm known for is Ivy Kitchen and cocktails. It's a restaurant on the east side of Detroit. It's on East Jefferson Avenue. But I am also a small developer and I have a sustainability company as well. So one of the things that we're not known for at Ivy is sustainability. But we are one of the most sustainable restaurants in the city.
Billy Wall-Winkel: So that paints a picture that the city of Detroit overall is not sustainable. If you're not known for it, but you're one the most sustainable one.
Nya Marshall: No, I wouldn't say that the city of Detroit isn't sustainable because we've gotten so much better. We actually have, you know, the city recycle. We have recycle cans where every resident is recycling today. But we're known because we actually recycle our food waste. So we convert our food waste into compost. We have a partnership with a black woman owned company, Passion Murray called Detroit Dirt, and that is allows us to recycle our food waste into compost and then purchase that same compost from her in the spring. So when you pull up at Ivy and you see all of our beautiful flora flowers and our flora flower beds, that's our food recycle food waste.
Billy Wall-Winkel: That's awesome.
Nya Marshall: Yeah.
Billy Wall-Winkel: Please, please invite him to table. Oh, don't worry. I will do it. Everyone does it. Most people talk with their hands.
Nya Marshall: Yeah, I do.
Billy Wall-Winkel: So are we coming back to the sustainability part of it? In a moment. But where did the idea for Ivy Kitchen in cocktails come from?
Nya Marshall: So I am born and raised Detroiter, originally from the East Side. I moved to the West Side when I was 14 years old. The area where Ivy is, I'm actually from that neighborhood. And when I live in that neighborhood today, I moved to the West Side for many, many, many years. And now I'm back on the east side. And when I moved back to the east side, what I remember most when I was growing up is that most kids, including myself and my siblings, we ate at gas stations, you know, we ate Coney Island, you know, things of that nature. When I was a food desert, you know, that wasn't a thing back then. But today it is, even though it did exist then as well today. When I moved back to the east, I moved back about eight or nine years ago. I've been a lifelong Detroiter, but I've moved back to the east side, close to where I grew up, and it was still a food desert and you're talking 25 years later. And so that was disturbing to me. And I still it's not like it's not a heavily populated area. It's just there wasn't any good quality restaurants in the area. So I didn't understand that. And so I wanted to have an impact on that because, you know. What we eat, what we consume in our body matters. You know, nothing is wrong with eating the gas station food every now and then or eating the cone every now and then. But you really want some other additional options for the community that have that are healthy, that are sustainable, that, you know, places where they can actually gather with their families and their friends and their loved ones and have fellowship, because at the end of the day, food is fellowship.
Billy Wall-Winkel: And what neighborhood is it on the east side?
Nya Marshall: So it's technically called East Village where Ivy is located. We are in District five if that matters to anyone. Mary Sheffield set out to marry this jerk. On East Jefferson Avenue, 91 five, East Jefferson Avenue. I own a few buildings on the block.
Billy Wall-Winkel: So when you went back to saw to see your own neighborhood and you decided to like correct this change, what year was that?
Nya Marshall: That was shoot 2022. That was 2010. 2011. Somewhere in there. Because initially what happened is I purchased the building and I knew that I wanted to have an impact in the food space. But what you don't want to do is just plop something down. This is this is my original neighborhood, but it wasn't my neighborhood at that time. I was coming back to it. And so I reached out to all the neighborhood organizations, all the community groups, all the churches to see, you know, what does the community need? Because no one just wants you to just come and just put something in their neighborhood without letting them know, without giving them a pay have here, hearing their voice, basically, you know what I mean? That's the appropriate way to do this. And so I attended several community meetings, several neighborhood organizations, churches, anyone that would have me. I pretty much went and sat in and wanted to hear what the community wanted. And overwhelmingly they wanted a gathering place. They wanted a place with good quality food, good quality affordable food and healthier food options. Vegan options, vegetarian options. Because believe it or not, so many Detroiters don't eat meat. So many don't eat pork, things of that nature. And this is what they wanted. And so that's why I wanted to give them do the best that I could. And I still work hard at it every single day today.
Billy Wall-Winkel: Mm hmm. So how long did it take you to get it off the ground?
Nya Marshall: Oh, years, because it was self-funded. You know, my project is self-funded because not only did I redevelop a building that had been vacant for almost 30 years. Right. So where I've is, it was the food desert. I would say we spon development in that area now because we have several restaurants within a one mile radius of us now whereby before there were none. We have different various businesses popping up in that area where before when I bought those buildings, there was nothing there, you know. So I would say we respond some type of a movement on the on the Lower East Side. So that's kind of how that process began. But it took me several years because I had to I bought the buildings, I had to pay the taxes on the buildings. I had to redevelop all these things. And keep in mind, I'm still working in my career during this process. And so it was a slow process, but it was a winding road. And I when I met the finish line, I was very, very, very proud.
Billy Wall-Winkel: I bet after the years of working towards a.
Nya Marshall: Commitment of me, probably five years, almost five years to actually complete the project.
Billy Wall-Winkel: And over the course of those five years, you you said earlier that you knew as a me in the food space. When did the idea for Ivy. Take root.
Nya Marshall: So I'm initially and this is still a part of the plan because I believe in sustainable food systems. My goal is to have an aquifer where I'm farming my own seafood, basically to have a sustainable pipeline and pathway for my restaurant. Or if I decide to open another restaurant, I want a sustainable pathway. Because how? What's more, what's what's equally important is what you put in your body is how the food is created, how it's bred, how it's grown, how it's fostered, how it's nurtured. You know. And while we are low, we get our food from most local farms. We actually have a partnership with Oakland Avenue Farm, Jerry Brown on the East Side. So a lot of our produce comes from there. It's all of our produce is organic and a lot of it during the summer months comes from Oakland Avenue Farm. But I wanted to create a pipeline whereby you could I knew that. Okay, I know how this food would grow. I know how this food is bred. Things of that nature to have a sustainable, reliable food system. Because one thing that COVID taught us is that we rely on so much heavy international sources for our supply chain that we need to have a more localized system for that. And that's my ultimate goal.
Billy Wall-Winkel: And as you expand it, are you looking to look at other farms as well? So if say, if the demand creeps up, are you working with other urban farms to increase supply?
Nya Marshall: So currently I'm only working with Oakland Avenue farms locally, but we do our our our proteins are locally sourced from other farms, if not in the city of Detroit locally, meaning within a 45 minute radius. So that, you know, we're reducing our carbon emissions and things of that nature to to our food supply chain.
Billy Wall-Winkel: And how did COVID affect those supply chains? So you mentioned that internationally they were significantly affected. Did it have an impact on the local level?
Nya Marshall: Oh, of course. Because so much prior to COVID. Well, keep in mind, I wasn't open long before COVID. That was very, very, very heartbreaking. So by the time I got open, COVID hit within 90 days. So it was very tough. However, several sources, including, you know, we do craft mocktails, hand-crafted cocktails and mocktails at IAB. So much of that, those products come from France, come from Germany and things of that nature. So whereby things were readily available before you weren't able to have access to certain so many products during the course of the supply chain was complete, especially in the restaurant business was completely disrupted.
Billy Wall-Winkel: And how did you how did you handle it? Not only that, the interruption, but also COVID hitting so quickly after you opened.
Nya Marshall: That was tough. So COVID hit, obviously, we had the mandate come down to close down March 15th, 2020. It was unbelievable, quite honestly, you know, because it's not just me. I have a whole staff of 28 people and all my staff is Detroiters, you know, and more so you're worried about, you know, their lives. How how are they going to feed their families, you know? So initially, what we did when COVID, when we were forced to close is we packed up all the food, all the inventory that was remaining at Ivy. And I let my staff take it all home because obviously they were losing their jobs at that point. Quite honestly, I had no idea it was going to be for the length of duration that it was. I was thinking and hopeful that it would be two weeks, three weeks, tops. You know, who was I in for a surprise? It was obviously we we were closed until the end of 2020 almost, because we couldn't we were a new restaurant. We were a new business, small business. And the reaction time to so many things we didn't have in place that more established businesses had in place their takeout system. You know, we didn't really have that because we did not really do takeout. Well, people don't understand this. There is a science to carry out, you know, in terms of the food packaging, how the food transports, you know, it affects your menu, what you actually sell, you know, things of that nature. So it wasn't as quickly and as swiftly the process of our reaction time. I literally had to go back to the drawing board and begin to figure things out. So the restaurant was closed for quite some time. However, one of the ways that I pivoted was we have amassed several restaurant boards now, but we had a partnership with Jose Andres, who is one of my heroes, who I met this actually a few weeks ago at the James Beard Awards and our partnership with the World Central Kitchen, because this is a person that believes in making sure no one he his whole mission in life is to. Thought hunger. And so our partnership with him in which we received payments to provide meals to the feeding the front line. So we ended up with several partnerships with actually frontline foods, the city of Detroit, World Central Kitchen, we had about five partnerships where we were. We were giving out about 800 to 1000 meals a day. And we actually have sustained some of those partnerships. So we actually still one of the ones that I was most proud of was Alternative Living for Girls. That's the homeless shelter for the youth, for young, young women, young girls, I should say. And we still have that partnership right now today where we're providing them meals, but that that allowed us to actually develop a relationship with them. And it was just a proud moment, you know, to do something like that. In addition to algae, we provided meals to obviously our local policemen, our firefighters, our nurses, our doctors, all the essential workers, because a lot of people don't realize that they they were never off work. You know, a lot of people that I knew, they were sitting at home, you know, but the people that we were providing the meals to. They were working every day. Not only were they working 8 hours, they were working 14, 15, 16 hour days. And so that was a moment where it was a very proud moment, if you will, for myself and my team, because we were able to just make their day a little bit easier and a little bit better. And so that is actually what we did all during COVID until the restaurant opened back up. And that was. Almost October-November frame. Yeah.
Billy Wall-Winkel: It opened back up in October 2020.
Nya Marshall: Yes. So we were closed for about eight months. Yeah, eight months. Then the reopening process. Keep in mind, when we reopened, there was still no indoor dining. We were on the outdoor dining ban and I had to do like a makeshift. I mean, it's crazy to think about this now because, you know, you're scrambling around just to get outdoor heaters. No one had them something that you can just go and buy you readily a readily available at your hardware store. You know, there were none. You know, there was none. And so getting the outdoors, temporary outdoor space that we had built. Was challenging because of construction materials. Again, the whole entire supply chain was disrupted. And so just the the process of that and just trying to make sure that it's not even about making any money during this period. It's about making sure that I can pay my employees, you know, and I can afford to keep people safe. I can afford to keep people healthy, because at that time, the city of Detroit was one of our partners, and we received several small business kids from the city of Detroit in terms of hand sanitizer, masks, gloves, you know, all of these things that it took to keep this business going every single day and the level of support that we receive from the community, people were just coming out just so that we would stay open. You know, it wasn't even you know, they were there with their blankets and their this and their onesies, you know, and those are that level of support, that level of impact. Let me know that I was doing the right thing.
Billy Wall-Winkel: And there must have been. Utterly welcomed from from especially when you would think back to having to close after barely 90 days in business. Yeah.
Nya Marshall: It was because you know, um, you know, you know, when you're in it, you're in it. You're not removed from it enough to actually look at it and see the level of impact on what you're doing. Right. People are looking at it like for me it was like I, my goal was to. Provide healthier food options in a food desert, in a community that I grew up in. That was my goal. Unbeknownst to myself, that that impact reached people way beyond my immediate community and to to witness. It was something that was very beautiful and very powerful because in a very humbling because you don't you don't really realize a lot of impact that you have until later. You know, often times, especially for me in that that that's how that happened. We actually won the Neighborhood Hero Award from the city of Detroit, which is a proud moment because, again, you know, we. You don't you don't start this for that, you know, but to have that level of recognition was profound. And my staff and I, we just couldn't believe it. It was just like, wow, you know, it was it was amazing because, you know, you're like, oh, I was just another neighborhood restaurant, etc., etc.. You know, we're near downtown Detroit, so we do get a lot of downtown people. We're 5 minutes away from downtown Detroit. But the level of impact that you have, you know, on the community at large was it was it was immeasurable. You know, we had the mayor come in. We had the governor come in. You know, we've had, you know, most of the city council in our in our restaurant. And this is it. You know, this isn't something that, you know, I started this with to do and to to witness this. And the level of appreciation that we had from that was was just was amazing.
Billy Wall-Winkel: That's great.
Nya Marshall: Yeah.
Billy Wall-Winkel: So you at the beginning of the pandemic, you. Oh, well, first off, what year did you receive that award?
Nya Marshall: We received the award in 2021.
Billy Wall-Winkel: Awesome. Mm hmm. So earlier you mentioned that you had a staff of 28. Mm hmm. How many were you able to retain when you were in that in that closed down period when you were working with the other organizations coming out? Because you said you were doing up to a thousand meals a day.
Nya Marshall: So we were I was fortunate that so what we did is we basically share the wealth. So all the proceeds from that was distributed equally and we just decided to take shifts. So pretty much all of them. But. So 19 people I had on rotation for the meal process. So every day a different group of people would come in because we wanted to make sure that everyone was receiving something. Even though it wasn't nearly their salary. Right. But it was something whereby they were able to provide food to their families and keep their utilities on and things like that. Yeah.
Billy Wall-Winkel: And when did you start that? So you had mentioned that you had your staff take all will take home all the food that was in the building. Yeah, in the restaurants. I wouldn't go bad.
Nya Marshall: We quickly actually we I was very fortunate. I'm a very resourceful person. So, you know, I'm always reading and, you know, listening and watching. I was very, very, very fortunate because I reached out to I reached out to so many organizations and I didn't sit still or sit idle. I worked all during COVID. And so by April 1st, remind you we were shut down. We shut down March 15th. By April 1st, we had two partnerships in place. Already and the We're Authentication was our second partnership. Front Line Foods was our first partnership. The City of Detroit was our third partnership. They were getting their program up and running. But others there were also too few. Central Kitchen is out of New York and they had their program up really quickly. And because it consists of a bunch of chefs and restaurateurs and things of that nature and so how they Andreas he he reacted really, really quickly and implemented the program because obviously this is the premise of his business anyhow. So when the pandemic hit, he just expanded upon that and included more restaurants, and I was one of the lucky ones to be selected by him.
Billy Wall-Winkel: So you mentioned you received those small business kits from the city. Yes. Was there any other support for you, either from the state or nonprofits or anything like that?
Nya Marshall: Oh, we received several grants. Yeah. I mean, if if it wasn't for the community at large and the business pipeline, the small business pipeline, I don't know what will happen. I don't even want to think about it, quite honestly. But we received like even the state of Michigan, we received several grants from the state of Michigan. The state of Michigan had a crowd funding grant, a matching grant patron, the city. We received that. In addition to that, we received several a lot of support from the Detroit Economic Growth Corporation, the the SCC, the city of Detroit as a whole. At that time, it was Councilwoman Ayres. She was going door to door to all the small businesses giving out kits, hand sanitizers, thermometers, you know, we everything. Like I said, I'm a very resourceful person. Everything that was pretty much being offered or awarded, I was either applying for or, you know, people were at that point, it's crazy because we weren't well known. You know, we were our new restaurant in the neighborhood. But by the end of the pandemic, we had our awareness was so profound because of our philanthropic efforts that people wanted to support us, to keep us going. And so we received a lot of support. The DGC from, like I said, the state of Michigan, Amy, D.C. We received a lot of support from the business pipeline in the community as a whole.
Billy Wall-Winkel: And as the Medici, the Michigan Economic Development Council.
Nya Marshall: Many Michigan economic. Oh, I'll have to look at that for you.
Billy Wall-Winkel: It's development something, but development corporation.
Nya Marshall: Yeah, definitely. But because we definitely they actually gave us a grant to allow us to even today we still have this in place. We change our filtration filters in there for our HB, AC every other day and I.V. So we're there's a lot of those practices that we implemented during COVID for COVID safety. We're still employed. We still have them implemented today because, again, we still care about the safety of others. We still have had hand sanitizer on all of our tables, our filtration system, things of that nature. We still have it today. So we're still a very COVID friendly restaurant whereby we are we still have that in our mind, because let's not forget, the fall is coming. And typically this is when COVID peaks again, it's not gone, it's still here. We're just managing it a lot better.
Billy Wall-Winkel: MM You mentioned before that you had the 28 workers. They were all Detroiters. Oh, is that a conscious decision of yours?
Nya Marshall: No, we were lucky. We were just fortunate. It's like, no, I mean, I would hire someone that's not a Detroiter. That's not there's no bias there. It just we were just fortunate that one thing that I've learned in this journey, we are for year three, three years and now is that, oddly enough, your small businesses and communities, they function more efficiently and better with people from the neighborhood. As your employees, they can get to work. It's closer to them. You know, it just works a little bit better than someone coming from outside because they traveling further. A lot of things do happen in transit on your way to work. The attendance tends to be higher, higher rates of attendance when they're locally in the neighborhood. And we've been fortunate to hire most people with our name in and all of my employees, even today, they're all Detroiters. But I would say about 60% are within a five block radius.
Billy Wall-Winkel: That's awesome.
Nya Marshall: Yeah, it is. Uh.
Billy Wall-Winkel: I suppose, speaking with John George once and when Maya went to go put in their new store on Grand River, they apparently someone was like, so like, how do we like handle like shoplifting and things like that? And and John. George So I'm like only hire people from the neighborhood.
Nya Marshall: Facts.
Billy Wall-Winkel: Because you get the community invested. No one's going to touch that store because they don't want it to close. No, the music says absolutely anything to be pumping money directly back in, so you won't have to deal with that as much because people around the store will have money.
Nya Marshall: Absolutely. It's a it's an ecosystem, believe it or not. It's literally a paradigm, an ecosystem meaning that we're giving jobs, they're able to feed their families. We've never we've never had any break ins or robbery. We've never though we've never had any events or occurrences at ivy before, knock on wood. And I thank God for that. And I know it's because the community has his hands on us. Mm hmm. Yeah.
Billy Wall-Winkel: Where did the name for Ivy come from?
Nya Marshall: That's a winding row. So the name Ivy. It's a funny story. So the name Ivy comes from the Ivy leaves that were covered on the building when I first purchased it. So here's what happened. The city of Detroit kept calling me about these leaves. I kept getting tickets because they kept going back every time I removed the leaves. They kept growing back and I went like, What do I do to get rid of these leaves? I don't have this problem anymore. Keep in mind, this is pre ivy. I'm in the develop redevelopment phases. And so I was like, why are they even here? Because it was such a nuance. And so I decided to go to the library downtown to find out what was this land before this building. Because I'm the only the third person to own this building. A family of Jews built it. Another small real estate developer had it. Next, Mr. Magee, who I purchased it from. Why are these leaves still here? I go to the library. I look at the old plans. This was when it was all agriculture. Turns out the Ivy Leaves was heavily farmed in this neighborhood. Keep in mind, this building is from 1902. So these leaves have been growing pre 1902. And I went like, wow. Right. The tenacity of this leaf. Right. Like, it reminded me of myself. It reminded me of Detroiters. It reminded me of the city of Detroit. And I just thought, like. Like, you can't hold us back. We're going to keep coming. We're going to keep coming. You can tear it down. You can do all these things to us, but we're going to keep coming back. And that's what this leaf does, keeps coming back. Even today, I manage it very differently, but that's where the name Ivy derives from, because I just felt a connection to it, because I am a huge. Proponent of agricultural sustainability. The leaf predates. It's a historical. Figure in my mind, you know, that's attached to Ivy. And that's why I named the business Ivy.
Billy Wall-Winkel: That is an amazing story.
Nya Marshall: You know. And to myself, I went like initially it was annoying. It was just like, Oh, God, you know what I mean? Like, I'm trying to do other things and I still getting calls about these damn leave. Oh, sorry. And I'm going like, oh, my goodness, this is just too much. And so something in me just said, take the time. Why? Why is this why is this happening to me? And I started doing my research and I found out why. And hence the name I.D..
Billy Wall-Winkel: That's awesome. When when you opened, you. You were the first new business in around the area. And now there's a few more possibilities. And that's it. A few more restaurants. How is it? Is that change in the way I was doing business or is it only amplifying what you're doing?
Nya Marshall: No, I don't look at other businesses or other restaurants as competition. I look at it as a great ecosystem for us because there is enough money, there is enough people for everyone to be successful and prosperous. So that what's changed is we now do collabs with other businesses in our neighborhood. We have, you know, a restaurant business drop for our community now because we have more than one. You know, so it's the we actually work together instead of separate in our ecosystem now in the on the floor on the Lower East Side, because, again, it's not competition. It's really just amplifying what we're all doing and putting us on a greater scale, a greater platform, and allowing us to actually do more than what we did before.
Billy Wall-Winkel: When you were working on redeveloping the restaurant and the buildings and getting the restaurants set up. Did you do any of the business programs that are out there, either through Tech Town or anything like that?
Nya Marshall: So I did. I didn't officially participate in any tech town programs, but I did visit Tech Town for the shoot. I'm trying to think, what was it called? So they reviewed my business plan. Yeah. They had, like a business plan coaching our. And I did participate in the hour for them to review my business program. Great. Great place, architect. Definitely. I worked with Prosperous Southwest Solutions, the Eastside Business Association, Eastside Connection, the ACM, several business organizations and in the community. I've worked with many. We actually we actually just did a big dinner for I mean, I'm sorry, a picnic for any i j i which is new economic initiatives, JCI as well, and several organized several nonprofits. Were there several nonprofits because we received the anchor business grant because we are an anchor business in the community.
Billy Wall-Winkel: That's great. What does that entail?
Nya Marshall: So it basically helps support to make sure that the city maintains businesses in areas whereby they're outside of the seven strategic neighborhoods. So the city has identified seven strategic neighborhoods that are focused on businesses, parks, schools, etc. We are outside of that, but we are still an anchor business because our business is one that has been deemed that's necessary and a good. A good. Stewart in the community.
Billy Wall-Winkel: So does that. What does that fund, though?
Nya Marshall: So it basically help keep us afloat. So what did I use for that anchor business, Grant? It helped me build a permanent outdoor seating space. That's what that. That's what that program helped us do. Yeah. So they want you to thrive. That's the beauty of the city of Detroit. You know, they want everyone to succeed and they do everything that they possibly can to help make sure that's possible.
Billy Wall-Winkel: So now that you have that space, you have people coming in. Regular attendance is is okay. Again.
Nya Marshall: It's it's not pre-COVID. Pre-COVID, we were doing very well, believe it or not, a lot of people are still apprehensive about going into restaurants. So we have our slow days, you know, so we're I'm trying right now. Our goal right now is to get more corporate events and corporate sponsorship events because, again, who know there's so many unknowns when the fall hits, even though the fall typically the winter in the fall, our numbers are better, typically because people are coming indoors. We're not downtown. We're right outside of downtown. We're in the neighborhood. And so when people go out, most of the time they're heavily downtown. They're passing right by us. So we are kind of focused on, you know, family reunions, dinners when your family comes in town and you want to host a dinner. Things of that nature, a corporate event, smaller corporate events. Because Ivy is a smaller restaurant, we have 75 seats inside and 30 seats outside. And so with that being said, we want to utilize the space with maximum capacity as much as possible.
Billy Wall-Winkel: Gotcha. What is next for Ivy?
Nya Marshall: What is next for Ivy? So there is a few things that we are hoping to. Bring on is complementary businesses to HIV. So next is we're actually opening it up another restaurant. It will not be called Ivy, but there is another restaurant coming. Ivy is more upscale, more of a vibe. You got to come to Ivy Valley, but we want to do something for those. That's just a more casual dining space. And so that's that's next. In addition to that, I mentioned my sustainable food pipeline, which is the aqua farm that is also next. That is in the process right now. Hopefully, that will launch by first or second quarter next year. That is something that I'm very excited about. I'm very proud of. And I'm I'm just looking forward to it because. It literally goes to the of the core of really who I am and what my mission and my goals are for my life.
Billy Wall-Winkel: That's awesome. Yeah. Is there anything about? The story of Ivy in your work that you wanted to share with me, but I didn't ask you about. I'm.
Nya Marshall: Let me think. We talked about sustainability. We talked about the food pipeline. We talked about the community. No, I don't. I don't think so. I want to give a shout out to Bedrock, though. The rock group, they actually donated a mural to us by local artist Jeffrey McFly. I mean, there are so many people I should be thanking right now because without them, I mean, there's just so much. I want to thank the city of Detroit. I want to thank the DGC, the state of Michigan, Medici prosper us any I g I should say in new economic initiative and Jefferson East Inc. There are so many people that helped make this pop. Pop helped make this possible. Um. I do want to say, when I began this journey, my parent company is called Dynamo. It means did it on my own. That's how naive I was, right? Because you go in and it's just me. I'm the owner. It's just a little near. And I'm doing everything. I'm like, I'm the developer, I'm the builder. I have a construction company. I'm doing all these things, doing everything on my own right. At least that's what I'm in my mind. I'm telling myself. Right. And then as you go through the process, you realize that you did not do it on your own. You know that it took all these groups, including my staff, shout out to my staff. So I told my general manager, Tanya, you are loved and greatly appreciate it. My chef, chef Mike, everyone. Because without these people, my team, it would not be possible. And so I want to say that I've grown I've learned a lot, because initially when I began this, I was naive. And my company is called Dynamo, did it on my own. When you don't do it on your own, you know it takes a village. When people say it takes a village, it truly does take a village to make this possible. Because without the community, it's nothing. It's literally nothing. I knew that going in from a community base, but I had no idea the level of help and the level of assistance and appreciation that we would get from the small business pipeline.
Billy Wall-Winkel: It doesn't taste like. Awesome. Well, I just have a couple now. I have a couple more quick questions for you. When you think of the word hustle, what comes to mind?
Nya Marshall: The hard work. Yeah. So one of my staff members nominated me for this award, and I didn't know. And so when I got the when I started reading about it, right, I identify with it immediately. Because one thing about Detroiters, and I'm a Detroiter through and through, you know, I'm from the east side and the west side shut out McKinsey High grad, you know what I mean? And so we had so hard in Detroit, you know, it's just it's a nonstop. I wake up every day working hard every single day, and I have my entire life, even as a young girl delivering newspapers, you know, I worked for the Detroit Youth Summer Youth Program. I was one of those yellow shirt girls wearing a yellow shirt and a yellow riding the bus for cleaning senior citizens apartments and delivering meals to them. Born Detroiter through and through. And the level of work that you have, even from a young girl right till today, these things stick with you. This is what shapes you. This is what molds you into who you are, who I am today. Keep in mind, you know, I'm Michigan grad as well. I'm a Wayne State grad. I got my MBA at Wayne. All that is work. You wake up every single day because, you know, many doubt Detroiters, many think that, you know, we're nonexistent. We're nonexistent to many people. And when you travel around this country and around this world. But one thing that you know for sure is that Detroit's Detroiters hustle hard. They do.
Billy Wall-Winkle: And then similar very simple question what comes to mind when you think of the word hustler?
Nya Marshall: Hustler? Hmm. There is a negative and a positive connotation associated with that word. One thing that's ubiquitous with both of the negative and the positive is that work. Work. Working hard is how I would identify that word.
Billy Wall-Winkel: And then you have Ivey up and running. You have all these other projects. Do you have a separate high side hustle going on right now?
Nya Marshall: We always have a side hustle. You know, there's always a side hustle. There's so many things that I do on the side. Some of them I help on a name cause. But on the side, I do a lot of small businesses with their business plans, with business consulting, setting up their businesses. I have a podcast called Love Sex Business and I took Jana Williams, Joe's my co-host who owns Credit Cash used to go and we talk about business. We talk about balancing life. Our family, I love life, our family life and our work life. It's a it's definitely a side hustle. So, Tony, and you can find us on wherever you watch or listen to your your podcast. It was actually on TV last season. This is our season for now. The second season was on TV, so that's one of my side hustles. There are so many. I host with my co-founder Passion Murray. We own a company called Culture of Carbon. We host the largest sustainability event in the city of Detroit, right in the heart of Detroit in Cadillac Square. So that's another side hustle of mine. So there there is. So we were actually invited to the United Nations in 2018 and 2021 for these projects. We spoke before them. So that's another one of my side hustles. So there are several there are several layers peeling back this onion over here.
Billy Wall-Winkel: That's fantastic. Thank you so much for sending me.
Nya Marshall: Thank you, Billy.
Billy Wall-Winkel: This is great.
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Title
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Nya Marshall, August 23rd, 2022
Description
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in this interview, Nya Marshall talks about being born and raised in Detroit and owning two businesses.
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Detroit Historical Society
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Detroit Historical Society
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en-US
Black Business
Detroit
Entrepreneurship
The Hustle
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Hustle: Black Entrepreneurship in Detroit
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
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Detroit Historical Society
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English-US
Oral History
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Narrator/Interviewee's Name
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Akil Alvin
Brief Biography
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Akil Alvin was born and raised on Detroit’s east side. Today, he runs his company DDM.
Interviewer's Name
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Lily Chen
Interview Place
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Detroit, MI
Date
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8/17/2022
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1:00:26
Transcriptionist
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Taylor Claybrook
Transcription
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Lily Chen: Okay. We are recording. So today is Wednesday, August 17th at 1:35 p.m. This is Lilly Chen: and I am interviewing for the Hustle Project at the Detroit Historical Society and we're really excited to be interviewing one of our hustle nominees today. And so go ahead and go ahead and state your name. Spell it out and tell us your business name, too.
Akil Alvin: Awesome. My name is Akil Alvin spelled A-K-I-L. Last name, Alvin A-L-V-I-N. I own and operate digital. Digital Detroit Media. I'm better known as DDM.
Lily Chen: Awesome. And what year was DDM founded?
Akil Alvin: 2013.
Lily Chen: Okay. And obviously founded in Detroit.
Akil Alvin: Yes.
Lily Chen: Yes. Are you from Detroit, too?
Akil Alvin: Yes. Born and raised.
Lily Chen: All right. Are you east side? West side?
Akil Alvin: East side.
Lily Chen: East side. Okay. Used on the east side today?
Akil Alvin: Yeah. Downtown.
Lily Chen: Okay. Okay, cool. What's your neighborhood.
Akil Alvin: Currently?
Lily Chen: Either.
Akil Alvin: Okay. So currently I live in a riverfront area. Okay. So that's where I live. But you know, grew up on different parts of East Side, rather it's what you considered a hood, Mac and Buick to, you know, some more nicer areas as I got older. But ironically, we have travel. We had a stint on the West Side and we really made some things happen. So I'm really honored for this journey.
Lily Chen: Cool. And then what year? What year were you born?
Akil Alvin: I was born in 1995.
Lily Chen: Wow. Same as me also.
Akil Alvin: Awesome, awesome.
Lily Chen: What a good generation.
Akil Alvin: Absolutely. It's the best. We got the best of both worlds. We got the cassette and we got digital. Yeah. You know, we we can help the older generation and look down on a newer generation because we got to navigate both prior to Internet and so.
Lily Chen: Yes. Um, okay. So tell me a little bit about your childhood growing up.
Akil Alvin: Absolutely. So I grew up on a side of Detroit. My mom had me very young. She had me 15 years old. She had a a childhood that it almost was like us made for movies, for the things that she'd been through. My my family on my mom's side were are devout Christians like they pastor. We had to go to church every single day. My dad's side of the family were let's just say they're on marketing and sales, a home for the city of Detroit. So it was one of those things where my mom, they were like star crossed. Star crossed lovers. Yeah. And, you know, we were raised then, you know, things weren't always easy, but it wasn't bad either. You know, I was raised by a community of people because that's the norm in Detroit. You have, even in the words zip codes, you have the big mama or some neighbor who makes sure everyone eat, make sure everyone is home, make sure everyone is safe it was a community aspect. I grew up in what was considered in Detroit, one of the worst neighborhoods, the Martin Luther King Apartments, or better known as the King Homes. And from there it was, I thought, every reason why I shouldn't be at this seat today. It was prevalent. It was something that was normal. So at seven years old, because I'm a big guy and, you know, you can hear me breathe a little hard on this, Mike, but as a bigger guy, you know, your family say you have to play sports. You have to go play football. This is what it is. You're a big guy. The coaches would come to my house and say, Oh, we want him. And my friends are playing. So I'm like, okay, you know, I can play. Let's, let's see what it does. Let's see what happens. And I play for Detroit Pals. Who was practicing a month King High School, which is right up the street. And I hated it. Yeah, I wanted to play football. Like, football was cool, but I didn't know you have to run track and do sit ups and pushups that I didn't sign up for that. So one thing is I did at seven years old I was hide at my local library and with a park branch on the city of Detroit right there on Shane and McDougal, and it was eye opening. I saw a world of possibility, not just within the books, but through the technology, and no one was there. I was normally the only one there other than a few senior citizens who asked the same questions. Every time I'm there and I would hide at the library every time my mom would think I'm at practice.
Lily Chen: Wow.
Akil Alvin: And one of the things I asked the librarians over there was, can I produce my own program? Can I do some marketing for your branch? Because you guys are doing some amazing things. You guys have amazing summer workshops and field trips and all these things and no one is here.
Lily Chen: Yeah.
Akil Alvin: And to my surprise, they said yes. So at seven years old, I started producing my own program, helping them with marketing. I had my own desk. I was the unofficial person of the staff in. We turned that library to one of the number one libraries in a region in the city of Detroit.
Lily Chen: Wow.
Akil Alvin: And from there, in 2007, when WrestleMania WWE was in town, they sent some wrestlers to that library because it has so much traffic. I wanted to make sure that people knew what was possible and that my friends knew what was happening in that neighborhood. And these people who you see on TV and aspire to be are coming to see you, you know, and that is how you authentically impact culture, right? I knew I wanted to follow my dreams, but I didn't want to do the cliché way of following my dreams when I grew up, because I had friends that were doing everything possible to ruin their lives at a young age, from selling drugs to being in jail, to every single thing that you could think of. So I wanted to follow my dreams as I grew up. So at seven, when I made that choice to really do some things and follow this career path, it blossomed. And at ten, you know, we had Universal Soul Circus who would come to town every summer. And one summer, my mom took me. And, you know, like every other kids. Oh, Mom, I want to go back next year. I want to go back. I went back and I said, Mom, I want a job. I want to know how they did it. I want to make sure that this circus is here forever. You know, at that time, the circus only came for a weekend because of turnout in the city of Detroit. The following year, I asked for a job and they said yes, ten years out. So I became helping with promotions. And every time a news station would come, whether that's television or radio, I will be the kid plotted out the audience to say, Oh, how do you like the circus? No one in the city of Detroit realized it was the same kid on every station, every radio for multiple years. And it worked out. And they hired me, hired me when I became of age, really, you know, paid me make to happen. I became a producer for the Universal Circus and retired at 18. Right. So my childhood was all about possibilities and knowing that I can accomplish anything I wanted to do, and most importantly, knowing that I can follow my dreams as I grew up. And from 18, I started my own production company, a marketing house in. Here we are.
Lily Chen: Yeah, well, it's amazing. I, um. I love your relationship to DPL at such a young age. It's so cool. Um. Do you still. Do you still visit library?
Akil Alvin: Absolutely. Absolutely. I am trying my hardest to get in now because it's like now that we have the connections. I have the resources. I know, like, give me the contract. Let's let's try some things around, because now we need to do it all over again to let people know how core deal is. Yeah. Rather than the main library, the local branch, like, let's, let's make some things happen.
Lily Chen: Yeah, I, I love DPL and I, and I, I want to see it flourish.
Akil Alvin: Absolutely.
Lily Chen: You know, I love that you're part of that vision. So the business gives me the kind of elevator pitch version of what the business is.
Akil Alvin: Absolutely. Digital media or DDM for short is an ad agency that simply authentically impacts culture. So we work with corporations around the world from what Disney Company to Ford Motor Company to the city of Detroit. And we make sure that we show that people in marginalized communities, people of multicultural communities, don't have cookie cutter campaigns because so often when it comes to marginalized communities, you believe one campaign can fit everybody, like we're one monolithic group of people. And we come in and we really make it happen and we really authentically impact the culture internally and externally to show that representation matters within this corporate sphere. And it blew up from there. So we'refull service ad agency.
Lily Chen: Yeah. Do you have obviously you started as a one person team.
Akil Alvin: Actually 2.
Lily Chen: 2 okay.
Akil Alvin: When I graduated high school, I asked my high school teacher, I had a full ride to college and I asked my high school teacher, you know, what do you think? You know, I have this full ride. I know my mom would think I'll be the first one of my family to go to college, all of the things. And but this is what I really want to do. And he encouraged me to do it and became my first kind of employee investor and invested in all the equipment and took a leave of absence to help be my first employee and run the company. Until this day, he still works with production to the day and hasn't went back to Detroit Public Schools. So I started off as a two man team and that is that is what it is.
Lily Chen: Wow. And what's his name?
Akil Alvin: John Stallion.
Lily Chen: Okay. And he. He sounds like such an important figure in your life.
Akil Alvin: He is. He is. I tell him every day how much I appreciate him, how you know, he went, he always had a passion for radiography and different things and I think I lit the spark for him, relit it and with that I think that was what he needed to go purchase equipment and really follow his dream, his childhood dream. Because when I say follow your dream as you grow up as is not a number. You can be 50, you can be 26. You can be 18, you can be ten. Follow your dream as you grow up because we continually reinvent ourselves. That is what we do for corporations. Continually reinvent yourself and let's make it happen. We give permission to dream again, and that's what I've been doing all my life.
Lily Chen: So it started as a as a two person team. And how many people do you have now?
Akil Alvin: And it has blossomed to a 20 plus presenting?
Lily Chen: Wow.
Akil Alvin: We expand depending on the project with contractors, but the course my C-suite is amazing filled with 90% of women. Because one of the things I realize is when you empower a woman, everything can happen. Things. Things mysteriously change. I don't know how you all do it. I don't know how it happens. But I would not be here today on this podcast, on this recording, if it wasn't for the power of a woman. Right. Whether that's my mom, whether it's the librarians, whether it's all those women who said, yes, in my life, these women have done amazing, you know, really looking at my dream and saying, this is how we can take it to the next level. Right. It was times where I wanted to give up prior to obtaining a contract with Disney, prior to obtaining, you know, some things with Forbes magazine, I wanted to walk away, but these women saw something before I can see it. They saw it when I couldn't see it, and they encouraged me to keep going. And for that, I'm forever grateful for these women who came from corporate America in so many different sphere spheres. One was a master educator for so many years. One came from Ford Motor Company, an automotive industry. One was one of the top lawyers in the city of Detroit for government. Another was the number one sales rep in the country for pharmaceutical sales. But they came to come to this little ad agency and it blossomed and it's because they touched it, we are here today.
Lily Chen: Wow. It's it's so powerful to hear you say that. A in in my own life, like, you know, women of color have guided me every single day. Every single day they keep me alive. Um. Cause it's hard out there.
Akil Alvin: Absolutely. Absolutely. It's so many times where they know how I feel. They can read my face. They told me never to play poker with them because they can honestly pick up my energy and say, okay, Kil, maybe you need to sleep. Maybe you're hungry, you know? So I mean, every aspect that the company, you know, we have my Roc here who oversees communications for the company. I mean, every aspect they make sure I'm good. So I'm honored to have an amazing team. I would not be anything without this thing.
Lily Chen: Yeah. Tell me about, um, you know, you're obviously you're, you know, very successful now, today.
Akil Alvin: Thank you.
Lily Chen: I'm sure it took. A lot to get there. Tell me about some of those bumps on the road.
Akil Alvin: Absolutely. I think one of the things that I had to overcome, constantly and I still have to overcome today is being the youngest in the room. Right. I, I don't know what I had in me to say, that I wanted to follow my dreams as I grew up. But a lot of times that is not the norm in this culture. You know, I know so many people who get up every day to go to a job that they hate.
Lily Chen: Yeah.
Akil Alvin: That they are in pain. They have to do this. They have to on the way to work. They have to lose every aspect that makes them them. Yeah. Whether that's pressing out hair, whether it's talking different, whether that's okay, let me just in a way, let me listen to some different music because I have to lose me in order to be in this space. So when I wanted to follow my dreams, whether it was family or outsiders it wasn't encouraged. It wasn't encouraged. It was encouraged to work at Ford Motor Company. Yeah, it was encouraged to get a job a 9 to 5. And, you know, it was one of the things where I had to realize that I had to see things when no one else saw it. Right. Like my team is doing now, I had to do it and I had to encourage myself to just keep going because there was times when it was hard. We did in the early stages of the company, we did a video shoot for a rapper. She's a national rapper on a hit TV show right now. And we did a 22 hour straight shoot, 22 hours, and we're like, okay, so it's time to get paid. And they put out this wad of cash, aka it's has to be five in the morning wired of cash outside on Michigan Avenue, outside of some random strip club. Lot of cash and gave me and my videographer $36 to split.
Lily Chen: What?
Akil Alvin: $36. And those times like today, I sit back and laugh because, you know, some people could be mad, some people can be upset. We were really shocked looking at it and we decided to just go to the one, Coney Island. Oh, we're hungry. Like, well, I won't see this footage. Oh, let's let's go get Coney Island and literally watch the sunrise at Detroit One Coney Island. And, you know, let's go back out tomorrow, because it was those times where people don't believe they didn't know your value. Right. Still to this day, I was the youngest in the room. And oftentimes when a corporate sphere, I'm my team is the only black people in the room. So no matter what successes that we have, no matter what they've heard, rather the validation from Forbes magazine, whether it's all these different things, millions, multimillion dollar contracts. We had a woman about a month ago. We were signing a multi-year deal with a huge corporation, Fortune 50 company. And she was like, okay, I have to ask what did, I see this video, but what did you do? I said we're a full service ad agency. We did everything. Okay, you're not understanding my question. So where did you all come and what did you outsource? We didn't outsource anything. We're full service. Okay. You're not understanding. Okay, let me try to think. Okay. So where did you have a subcontractor? You can tell me. We're cool. And she could not believe the quality of work that we've done, no matter who validated. Because I have the skin color that I had and because I'm young. Mm hmm. That is the thing that we constantly have to deal with, whether it's in the government space or corporate space. That is what we have to deal with, as well as corporations not knowing how to speak to minority communities. Right. They think they can only speak to minority communities during Black History Month or models game day or LGBT community during the month of June. They're going to turn their flag rainbow in as soon as July 1st hit at midnight. Not just not even midday. July 1st at midnight. All wiped away.
Lily Chen: Yup.
Akil Alvin: All wiped away. And they think that is fine. So it's always that is the hardest part coming in and have to stand your ground for people that are not in the room. Yeah. Because oftentimes there are people from those communities in the room, but their voices don't matter.
Lily Chen: Yeah.
Akil Alvin: We are the only ones that's coming in because of the backing that we have whose voices matter. So I have to always be unafraid to speak my mind, to speak truth to power, and make sure that I come as one or we come as five. But we have millions behind us that if we're the only one in the room and the only ones that come through those doors, I have failed my community and communities of color around the world. Mm hmm.
Lily Chen: So, I mean, I'm hearing I just first of all, I have to say, oh, my God, that June, my wife and I. Yeah, it's. And then now everything is like, not even about being gay anymore. Like yourself. Here's the rainbow.
Akil Alvin: Absolutely. Absolutely. We just did a campaign for a corporation, and we did this whole ad. And it was, you know, people who look normal because corporations don't realize that gay people are normal. You know, they want it to be like, no, they don't look gay. Let's do like, where's the makeup? You know, rainbow wigs. And I'm like, you know, this, like, stereotypes of gay people.
Lily Chen: Right?
Akil Alvin: These are things that we have to push back on. You know, I have an executive for my C-suite who is married to a woman. She's gay. And we want to make sure that within my company, we're diverse. Yeah. Diversity of thought. You know, you hear that diversity, equity and inclusion so much now they just throw it out, throw it on thing. But we want to make sure that it's inclusion, diversity, because when you include voices from minority communities and different backgrounds and different stories, diverse is a given. Yeah. So we see it all the time with corporations. And we had a corporation, a big partner who had this whole campaign for their amusement park and. They were so excited to tell us what the name of this campaign is. And I don't want to say it because I don't know if it's out there yet. And I'm like, What is that like? Is that a warning? You're saying that black people are have is that like what do you. You know, it was it was so bad. It was so bad. So this is what we have to do. We have to we have to be firm and be honest. And now that same corporation calls us the North Star. The North Star, because we can make sure we guide you to the light that's progressive. Because the most progressive thing is corporations can do is allow people to authentically see themselves. Yeah, right. That is how you authentically impact culture.
Lily Chen: Yeah, well, I heard you say something amazing, which is that. You know, as people of color, as women of color, like it is not only our job for to to try to flourish yourself, but it is like trying to lift up a whole community. Absolutely. I hear a lot of the ways that you try to do that, whether that's hiring people of color, hiring diverse voices, or even in the content that you create. So tell us more about, you know, what it is like to bring a whole community with you.
Akil Alvin: Absolutely. When I think about bringing a whole community with me, when I go to these doors that are not normal for people like us that walk through them. Honestly, I can't lie. At first it was hard. Yeah, it was a time where we had a huge corporate contract. It was the first of its kind. We made history with this deal, with this corporation, and they literally sat us down and said, Listen. If you fail, we're going to go back to our investors and say, we tried. I'm like, Whoa. Like, I mean, that's pressure. Um, that we tried to work with a black agency. We tried to work with a black firm in especially after the George Floyd. Right. A lot of corporations clamored to just say, ah, put in their diversity equity inclusion report, their report that they did this for black people. We're going to give you this contract, but it really doesn't mean anything. I just want to put this on social media really quickly. And it's hard, right? Because. You can tell that our voice. Really? Is isn't value or the people that are in the room who are of color isn't value. Yeah. You know, there are so many times where we've had meetings where we say, okay. I'm not going to say it's racist, but it's inconsiderate. It's insensitive. What you're saying, what you put out, the campaigns, the name of it, all of this. And so often we have we get an e-mail. Hey, can I get a sidebar? Email? You send us you send me the zoom link cause I don't want to sit in front of corporate. Thank you for saying it. I've been saying that for ever. And we get that so often. Yeah. You know, because people of color have been in the wrong people are marginalized communities have been in a room and just not valued and not listened to. So but it's important as well. It is important to show that people of color can speak well, that they can follow directions, they can do what they say, they can hold their own. And not only that, but they can produce quality work. Yeah, right. I started very young, so I make sure I go back to my elementary middle school who has and Akila one day and now going to my high school who we're starting a debate culture academy that my communications team Michelle Perez on this running and I honestly just want to show representation to show that we can do it this show that you know this is what we've done. This is the trials that we came across. Because not only that, you're good, it's still not good enough in the eyes of so many different people. Again, I'm a Forbes 30 under 30 top ad agency executive in North America, all of the stuff that is honored in Africa and Australia. But somehow, some way I didn't do the work or it wasn't mine or all these different things which they don't realize. It's like that is really insensitive. Yeah, that is. Would you say this if I looked like you? Yeah. You know, so these are of things I have to go through. But however, if I go through it and I can see it was times where we had record and record number engagements on social media and different things for a client. And for some reason when we sent a report are these numbers can be made up on your the you know when they're the account managers and they can verify it themselves. They sent a city email out to everyone and said that it could be made up. And it's it's hard to have to go through these things because you're often devalued, you're often dehumanized. However, you have to keep going. You have to keep going. At times like this, being a Detroit Hustle honoree with this wonderful, wonderful establishment, this is brings proof the power to show that we are authentically impacting culture. And you're going to hear that a lot. That's what we do.
Lily Chen: Yeah. Tell me, what advice do you have? Like, you know. A lot of young business owners. You have to deal with this crap. All day, every day. And when you don't succeed, it's because of your race. And when you do succeed, it's despite your race, right?
Akil Alvin: Absolutely.
Lily Chen: Um. So any advice that you have for, you know, whether that's young business owners, business owners of color, underrepresented people?
Akil Alvin: Absolutely. I think the advice I would give to young business owners of color is to continue to learn. Did you stop it?
Lily Chen: Oh, God, no.
Akil Alvin: Sorry about that.
Lily Chen: No worries. The advice that you would give?
Akil Alvin: The advice that I would give to young business or business under color, period, is to continue to learn. Right. This world is ever evolving, especially the media, where that I mean, there's always new equipment. There's always new software. You know, I was literally looking at these mikes, I'm like, Oh, these are mikes. I was just looking and I think I want to buy these, you know, because everything is always something new coming out. So continue to learn. My team always laughed at me at two in the morning or three in the morning, I would send them a link. Look at this video. I just learned something. Let's talk about this in our meeting tomorrow, because I'm continuing to learn everything in equal life from anything, right? From a motivational speech, from a TV show, from this. You know, my team members now, because they know that about me, they will send me TV shows like Clutch Academy on BET with Rich Paul and LeBron James. Okay. I love this model. Look at this. This is how this work we look at different, whether it's the billionaires like, you know, Richard Branson or Steve Jobs, I mean, just all these different things. How did they do it? How did they overcome it? You know, Oprah Winfrey and so many others, you know, learning does not have a race to it. Right. Education, because that is the one thing that they can't take away from you. You know, they can take away because of your color, because of this. Because of that. But your mind and your branding, you're always evolving. You can never take that away. And I always encourage people to continue to learn. Continue to learn what you don't know and don't know something. Put someone in a room that does, right? I honestly say that my team is a wealth of knowledge. A wealth of knowledge, and they're there mainly because they're great at what they do. But also because what they're skilled that I'm not and I always tell people if you're the smartest person in the room, you're in a wrong room because there you have met your ceiling. You know, I, I was honored in Africa earlier this year for some work I've done in Forbes and all this different things. And I had a friend who, when I was telling him how long my flight would be. About 22 hours. Yeah. They were like, Oh, man, I thought flying was quicker. I wonder how long it take to drive? Yeah. And that silence. And it was like, okay, maybe I've met my ceiling here. Let's learn a lesson. Make this a teachable moment, but continue to learn. Continue to look at her circle. Continue to evaluate. Right. Because everyone doesn't have to be in a field at your end, because that's when the competition start happening. That's when people start to withhold knowledge. Because if we're in the same field, no, you can't get ahead of me because I need this deal. You know, but when you have people whose I have friends with a lawyer, a friend who's a teacher, a friend who so many other things, and we come together and pass knowledge that is sometimes applicable to their field in their industry. And we all become better men. We all become better citizens, better people. And that's how we grow.
Lily Chen: Yeah, it sounds like even though you've been doing this for a long time, you're still excited by new information. Absolutely. So tell me about the things that, um, just that you look forward to most in your work.
Akil Alvin: Oh, man. I think some of the biggest things I look forward to in work is tomorrow. And when I say tomorrow's, because no day is like the same. There's we've had meetings from. I can't say the names, but we have some massive, massive news coming out from the head of one of the biggest hip hop stars out right now. To someone on Los Angeles Lakers who we're working together, forged a partnership and we're announcing in October one of the megastars on the Los Angeles Lakers. And this is these are things that I look forward to, you know, the new because so often I'm not supposed to be here. You know, I came from the King Homes on the east side of Detroit. My dad was a, a drug dealer. My, my family didn't go to college. No one. I am not supposed to be here. Yeah, and to be honest with you, I'm constantly reminded, right? I am constantly reminded because you have what we call a black text where because you're here and you feel like you have to take everyone on. Everyone has a problem that only your money can solve. All of these different things that we go through as people of color when we become successful. And sometimes it's always it's the hate as well. Because you have exceeded a ceiling that someone has set for you on your behalf and you have exceeded that. And they're like, Why? Who do you think you are? Yeah. You know, type of thing, whether that's a former educator, whether that's a friend, a family member, a spouse, a girlfriend, a boyfriend, whatever it is. You know, I think it's one of those things where I look forward to what's next because I can't predict it. I can't. I'm. How about this? I'm done predicting it, right? One day, back in November of 2021, you know, we were in a meeting I had just ended a one year advisory partnership with One Media who owns HBO, TNT, so many different things. And it was right into that advisory agreement in November 2019, and it was a one year. But you know what happened in 2020? The pandemic happened and nothing happened. I was discouraged, like, this is what we needed. This is a partnership with the major networks, a conglomerate of networks. And I want to make this happen. I mean, cinema and Cartoon Network, all these different things, and it failed. So in November of 2021, I had just hired new staff. And, you know, we were preparing for a pitch competition, you know, and I was discouraged. I didn't want to do it. I didn't want to do it. We had just. It just everything's falling through. We had a contract that someone wanted a website. They were going to pay $70,000 and they were like, the check is ready now. And we had just came out of the pandemic, so all jobs were stopped. This was the one time where that clause act of God came in to effect. You know, I thought that was just like, Oh, this contract is divine and holy. Like, Oh, this is really going to make it. God is in this. But that was when that clause came and wiped out every contract we've had. And I was it was times where I really want to give up and I was emotional and and just mentally dumb. So when this job for $70,000 came off our website and they said the check was ready, I was ready to pick it up, but my team was like, No, Akil, let's get a contract. You know, let's get a contract with them. Let's, let's. All this happened when I told the client, Hey, let's get a contract in place. Let's do this. They stopped answering the phone.
Akil Alvin: And I was honestly, I was mad at my team because I was like, you don't know the bills that were packed up. You don't know the loans that were taken out for the company. The, all of these different things. And it's like we needed that. We needed that working capital things were about to close. And, you know, somebody called to say, hey, let's do this pitch competition and, you know, see what happens. And I didn't want to do it. I waited until the day before a video was needed or two days before to enter the pitch competition to tell my team. And without a doubt it was like, No, you have to do this. I didn't have a haircut or anything. My communications director came over my house, took some scissors and cut my beard, chunks out of my beard. I have the picture now. I want to get that picture framed. I want it to. It was not a it was not a good look. And so everything was going wrong. So I had to do this video with chunks out of my beard because I couldn't get a haircut. It was right after the pandemic. I went to the barber. Shops were open yet? Yeah. And I got in. And so we got in and we looking at some of the corporates that would be there and somebody on my team, a new person was like, Oh, Disney's here. Oh, so we going to work with Disney are we're going to do all this? And I'm like, Oh my gosh, here we go. Like, I just had an advisory partnership with Time Warner or Warner Media now, and it didn't work out. So I had the same excitement, whatever. Little do I know. Disney was one of the places to win those awards. A contract with Disney. And it was second place. And I'm like, oh, man, you know, we did a pitch competition, and they were like, We'll be back in 5 minutes. So we are waiting. It's all virtual and 15 minutes go past. No one came back. You know, it was Disney, Coca-Cola and another company. No one came back. You know, 30 minutes went past. No one came to the virtual room. Literally 45 minutes went past and were like, okay, what's going on? I come to learn that because Disney is second place and Coca-Cola was like $10,000, you get $10,000 first place. And the deal with Coca-Cola. You know, I'm just. I just. $70,000 want the win. I'm like, okay, $10,000. That can help. So the reason so much time went past is because. You know, Disney fought for me. And they were like, no, you know what? If he learns that he won $10,000 and they sued, you know, I don't want they have lawyers in Rome, all of these different things. And Disney was like, I got him and the rest was history. They got it from there. We have multimillion dollar contracts and Coca-Cola is now a client of ours and so many other things. So it's one of those things. It's the unexpected tomorrow that I'm so much so, so, so excited for because who knows what's to happen. So I guess that a long way of saying tomorrow again.
Lily Chen: Yeah I mean something that's incredibly important that I hear in that story is that there were so many things that did not go right.
Akil Alvin: Absolutely.
Lily Chen: And you kept your head up and said, I'm still going to face it. Absolutely. You know, and it's probably a huge reason why you are where you are today.
Akil Alvin: And when you say so many things that didn't go right, it was also times where I wanted to give up. Yeah, times where I wanted to walk away. It was times where I'm like, okay, I only want to be here no more because there is so much stuff that's against me. But it's this team that didn't allow me to give up. It's this team where my head was down. They literally lift your head up. We got you. You know, it's a team that I finally have that can carry something when I'm not looking. You know what I'm saying? It's one thing to, oh, we're on this forefront together. We're in this battle together. But you lay down in the back, let us push. Yeah, it's a beautiful thing. And I, like I said, I wouldn't be here for us for this thing because I didn't want to do the pitch competition is so many things that I didn't want to do, but they saw something and when I was down they spoke life to me. So it's this team that I owe everything to.
Lily Chen: Yeah. It's so beautiful to hear you say. I think, you know. I've heard from a lot of people that it's not only the work that is driving them forward, it's the people around you.
Akil Alvin: Absolutely.
Lily Chen: You know, um, because you you love them and, you know, and they love you. And it shows. Chosen the business.
Akil Alvin: Yeah. Yeah, they do. It's a it's a big family. It is.
Lily Chen: Yeah. So we've heard, you know, about a lot of ups and downs and a lot of downs that went up. All of ups that were done. And, um. You know, as you reflect on that path that you've been on, what are some things that really surprised you or really kind of changed who you were?
Akil Alvin: Mm. When we talk about my journey and I look back on my journey, I think the things that really surprised me was my perseverance and how strong I am.
Lily Chen: Yeah.
Akil Alvin: You know. We say we're strong until we're faced with some obstacles that we have to be strong for.
Lily Chen: Yeah.
Akil Alvin: You know, it's. I didn't realize how much that I can take. And also I didn't look at the when I look back now, every obstacle that we talk about that we laugh about today, I thought that was the end. I thought I was out of here. When I tell you I was severely depressed. I had just in 2019 because the company was doing so well, just purchased this beautiful loft, downtown Detroit, all these different things. We were excited. I had moved in literally December 31st, 2019. Wow. And all these different things. And when the world. Collectively ended. Yeah. When, you know, corporate jobs stopped. I thought it was the end. I thought that there was no way I can get out of this.
Lily Chen: Yeah.
Akil Alvin: But then. Now coming out of it, um, I see how strong I was, and I see that 100% of the time I get through it. And that's what you have to look at. You know, it's so many things that we can look back on in our life that maybe other people know or maybe that we only know that we were dealing with in 100% of the time you got through it. Look, that's a hell of a track record, if you ask me. Because you did it. You did? I see it on your face like this thing is that you only know about that you like, wow. 100% of the time I got through it. Yeah, that is something that we don't give ourself credit for. We don't pat ourself on the back and really sit back and look and say, Wow, I did that. And I think that is the biggest thing that surprised me was. Wasn't me. Um. Like I said, it was times where I wanted to commit suicide. Right. And I thought I had seen the best of my life. Yeah, but if that would have been my ending till now. My life has been 100 times greater.
Lily Chen: Yeah.
Akil Alvin: Because I persevered through it. You know, we got through it. You will get through it. Whoever's listening to this. Whoever come into this museum and seeing this exhibit or hearing this audio, you will get through whatever you're dealing with. I absolutely love you and I'm proud of you. You know, stop sleeping on you. Please, you know, stop looking at every other hero and look at the hero and you, please, I love you. I'm proud of you. And let's get through this together.
Lily Chen: Yeah, well, I mean, it's it's so important to hear you say these things because so many successful people only share their success.
Akil Alvin: As the highlight reel.
Lily Chen: It's the highlight reel which is cool. But all of us, then when you're feeling low, you're thinking, I'm the only person that feels that.
Akil Alvin: Absolutely.
Lily Chen: But you're not. You're not. And when you. Especially when you're an entrepreneur or when you're a person of color. I mean, there's a lot to work through, perhaps a little bit.
Akil Alvin: At no fault of your own.
Lily Chen: Right? Yeah. Yeah.
Akil Alvin: It's one of those things where. You have to realize that you're human and you have to give yourself permission to have a human moment. Yeah, right. It sounds so. You want to cry, you want to you want to feel sad. All the things you have permission to do, that you have permission and give yourself 1000 second chances. You have permission to do that? No one else. You can do that within yourself and you can make it. I literally failed my way to success. Mistake after mistake after mistake. Failure at the failure. And I'm here today because I gave myself 1,000 second chances. Yeah, because I believed them. And I championed me in the mirror. And I allowed myself to cry. I allowed myself to grieve. I allowed myself to be mad. Not for long. But just to let it out. Let those human emotions out. As a black man, I let those human emotions out. That sometimes is not cool. It's not celebrated, you know, why are you crying? But that is why I'm here today, because I allow myself to be human. And I think so many others need to give yourself permission to do just that. I know it sounds weird to allow yourself to be human, but sometimes because of highlight reels that you're seeing on social media, you think no one goes through problems. You think no one poops because you don't see it and you don't think you know. It's those things that you have to do to realize that they put the pants on one leg at a time, just like for you. And that's, that's what I've been doing all my life.
Lily Chen: Yeah. Something that's, uh I'm hearing what's really important about your story. You are an incredibly resilient person and obviously you're also wildly successful. But you're I mean, you're an incredibly resilient person. And it and it makes me think about how often it is that people of color and Detroiters are so resilient. And it makes me think about how, you know. When especially when people of color and when black entrepreneurs are successful, people will say, oh, you know, that was, it's like somehow.
Akil Alvin: Affirmative action.
Lily Chen: Right? Like somehow that it wasn't.
Akil Alvin: Like, earned, you were given this because of diversity, equity and inclusion. Right. There's a tax break. Yeah, I've heard it all.
Lily Chen: Yeah, but the thing is, like you've succeeded because of all these experiences that you've had, right? Because it teaches you to be so resilient.
Akil Alvin: Absolutely.
Lily Chen: Yeah, I, I really admire, like so much of the story of everything that you've been through. But then also that the success that you've had.
Akil Alvin: Oh, thank you. Thank you. You know, but I thought it's because of Detroit. Right? Yeah. When you look at my company's website, the first thing you see is Detroit Hustle. That comes up. And it's intentional. It was intentional to say our company's name is Digital Detroit Media. Even when we shortened it to DDM, we're still digital Detroit Media because Detroit really made me who I am today. You know, Detroit has moved the world with the auto industry. You know, we made you dance with Motown. Yeah. I mean, everyone, no matter what corner of the world you hit, you know, a motown song. Yeah. You know, and not just that, but we saw what happened years ago. About a decade ago. Well, we made you believe because a lot of people thought Detroit was done, you know, the first of its kind bankruptcy and this ability and so much drama. I used to work for the city of Detroit within a city council during the times. And I was on a camera. I was a camera operator when the strike comment happened. And so many different things happened with city council, the fights and different things. And, you know, we made you believe because nothing stops Detroit. Yeah, that is what makes up audio. That is what makes up me. You know, I'm honored to say it. Every facet of what I just said from the move. In a world with the auto industry and Ford Motor Company, that's a client Motown major dance. That's a client in the city of Detroit. We have a multimillion dollar deal with the city of Detroit because that's who we are. We want to make sure we impact on them. I cannot go to no other community, no other country and impact that country of that community without doing something home. So whether it's the young people in the schools, whether it's the museums and DPL, whether it's so many other things we have to give back here, we have to make sure a percentage of whatever we make in revenue goes directly to impacting young people have to because we need to show them what it looks like to be successful. Yeah, this is what it looks like. This is what it looks like to to go and be in a room and be free and unapologetically you. This is what it looks like for a young boy to have so many different obstacles thrown at him. And literally he dunked everything that came to him. This is what it looks like for a black man to succeed and own a multimillion dollar ad agency. Yeah, this is what it looks like. So I'm on it for young black boys and girls to come to this museum, this institution, and see what it looks like, to have hustle, to have grit, to be proud, to be from the D. You know, I was intentional of wearing a hoodie that says Detroit versus Everybody today because it's something about Detroit. It's you know, it you know, you know, when you go out of town you say you from Detroit the respect that you get you know rather it's the oh you've been Eight Mile. Well yeah you know you know the movies that's cool. Oh God you know in so many others. But Detroit gets so much love because we're so resilient. Everyone, everyone who makes up this beautiful, beautiful mosaic, that we call Detroit. This is what we do. And I'm honored to be from the city and to be born and raised from this city. My company is I owe it to Detroit. I owe it. This is I I think one of the things we're going to do is a love letter to Detroit. Yeah, because I fell in love first with this city, and now I'm starting to see the city love me. And it's a wonderful thing.
Lily Chen: Yeah, it is really wonderful. I mean, you have, um, you know, you have international success. You have huge reach at this point. Um, but you remain loyal to who you are, right? And who you're where you're from. That's beautiful to see.
Akil Alvin: Absolutely. Um, because I can't be one who takes and leaves. Yeah, we've seen it happen so many times, but we want to make sure our headquarters were in downtown Detroit. Yeah. Not a suburb. Not. Oh, we're digital Detroit media based in Southfield. You know, we wanted to make sure that young people can see us, right? We want to make sure we have a presence. You know, when when school opens in a couple of weeks, I am going to a school on the first day of school because I want young people to touch me to see that it's real, to see the clients that you saw, everything on the news, you saw all these things. But I want you to touch me. I want you to have my email address. So whatever it takes, have my team's contact information. Because all you have to do is ask. You know, that's how I got here. It's asking, can I work? Can I help? Can I do this? And the answer will be yes. So I want young people to see that representation, right? Because so often we see only the hands of black people can only do one thing. And that's catching us shooting a ball. Hmm. And that's not enough. Because these same hands can own that team. These same hands can show you why you see that on TV. Because those are hands that's told those cameras and produce and say in action. Yeah. The same hands can be the producer of the record that you are rapping on. The same hands could be the doctor, the lawyer, the museum curator. That's what these hands can do of color. You are really you know, when we say people of color, we are the color of magic, because across the board, we have done some magical things. Yeah. And from this city. Oh, my God. We've done some magical things. So that's what this exhibit is all about.
Lily Chen: Yeah. I mean, something I love about Detroit is that we're from here and we stay here. Like, I'm not going to ditch this city or New York. You know, this is this is home.
Akil Alvin: Absolutely. There was times I've literally been out of Detroit. I'm like, oh, my God, the water just tastes different. This water is terrible. You know, no matter how much I complain about potholes and I go to someone with a beautiful street, you know, you don't feel not one pothole. Something just doesn't feel right. This just feels fake. I don't like the food. The people feel phony. I just need to get home. There was a time a few weeks ago, I, you know, I was working with the embassy in Africa and we're like, Hey, meet me in Miami. Like, All right, cool. We can go. You know, I came to Miami and I'm like, okay, how long I got to be here team? Like, it's Miami. So some people would be excited. I'm like, How long do I have to be here? Let's, let's make this happen and let's get back. Every meeting since then, they've been to Detroit and they're like, Oh, let's keep all the meetings to Detroit. We'll come to Detroit. Is something different? Yeah, it's something different. I encourage everyone to see the world because you need to see the world. But also that because you saw the world, you appreciate so much more of the people, the grit, the nature. It's times where, you know, you go out of town and people are scared of everything you get, know, my God, that's nothing. I've heard that before. That's, that must be a muffler or something that sound like. Nah, no, it's not. It is what is. Oh, that's a dog with that pretty dog. Detroit is that just not afraid of anything or oh, that's, was that corruption? No, that's cool. We been there, done that. We got through it. It's okay. You got to be in there. It's okay.
Lily Chen: Yeah.
Akil Alvin: So.
Lily Chen: Yeah, I spend all day complaining about the weather in Michigan, but people are like, well, then leave. I'm like, No, no, absolutely no.
Akil Alvin: And I predict with the next 10 to 20 years, people are going to flock here because we have multiple seasons. You know, we are such a unique place with a clean body of water, multiple seasons. I mean, you think my journey was a roller coaster? Detroit season is a roller coaster where, you know, you can go from 100 degrees to -20 and it's like, what is going on right now? However, I love it so much. I can't be somewhere that's consistently hot. I can't be somewhere that's consistently cold. And I am so used to the seasons. I love it. I mean, maybe one day I want to experience a Christmas somewhere else, but I don't think it will feel right. I need the snow, but yeah, let's make it happen.
Lily Chen: Yeah, I, um here. You associate? Like Hustle with Detroit. And I feel that way really strongly that this project really has to be tied to the city. You know, people hustle everywhere, but there's something really unique about Detroit.
Akil Alvin: Yeah, Detroit. Hustle harder.
Lily Chen: Mm hmm.
Akil Alvin: I mean, seriously, it hustle artists. We I mean, think about some of the things that happened in the rap industry now, where there's an artist right now just created a diss track for Eminem. Eminem, don't mess with nobody. But, you know, when someone is that great at what they do, that top tier, you have to send out this track so you can get the recognition, the marketing in the promotions, you know, and it's one of those things like, wow, Detroit really birthed that Detroit birth, Detroit birth, all these I mean, think about births. Detroit birthed that institution that feeds the world. Yeah. Sweet Potato Sensation. Who, oh, my God, those lemon chess pies are to die for. I've had that nowhere else in the world. You know, the sweet potato cornbread muffins with the soup. It is, I am so in love. But that's what Detroit births, it births hustlers. Hustlers that literally had to sweat, had to shed some tears, had to go to Los. But it made us resilient. Yeah, it made us hard, like I said, to try to move the world. We made you dance. We made you believe in so many different people. And the people that are on this list that my fellow honorees made you believe, because I'm sure their stories are similar. Their stories are ups and downs are similar. The stories of trying to find funding as a black person to Detroit. Yeah, trying to get the capital, trying to get the building over here, trying to make it happen. Trying to allow someone just to please believe in me. You know, I'm doing this. You know, I do pottery and clay, but I want you to make it happen. I want you to see what I can do. This is not it may not be Powabic pottery, but I promise you, if you just give me a chance to show it, we can make some things happen. That is what Detroiters do. We are a collective of dreamers, elevators and innovators in this city. And it's crazy. It's we're overflowing with we had there so many displaced CEOs on a street catching a bus because no one to listen, no one gave them an opportunity to shine. And that is what I do. The light that comes on me from all these international contracts, from Forbes magazine, I make sure I shine the light on so many different people, these young people, these older people, this everyone here, because again, you can follow your dreams as you grow up in Detroit has filled. Eternally, immensely with so many different dreamers. Yeah, you know, that is what we do. So. Yeah.
Lily Chen: So, um. Three ending questions. One is, what does the word hustle mean to you? Okay.
Akil Alvin: When I think about the word hustle. It means grit, it means passion. It means never giving up. It means allowing things to happen organically. But having the faith that you would get through it. Yeah. You know, so many times we want to prevent things from happening. We want to put this up to block it. But allowing things to organically work itself out or allowing you to have human nice moments. But while you haven't human moments, whether that's shedding a tear, whether that's being angry, whether that's being sad. Knowing that you can also be the superhero, that marvel like superhero that can make it happen within the snap of a finger. When we think about black women who made it happen and win the national, you know, elections and if there's a nature yeah, that's hustle that you can be human and superhuman at the same damn time. Yeah, that is what it means.
Lily Chen: What about the word hustler?
Akil Alvin: When I think about the word hustler, it means not taking no for an answer. You know, so many times that we go through dead ends and we hit roadblocks and some people were just out there and a plane hit the phone multiple times. Why is my GPS not working to success?
Lily Chen: Yeah.
Akil Alvin: Hustlers, get out. Oh, we got to walk the rest of the way. Oh, we got to turn around. Beep, beep. Let's walk. Drive on the sidewalk so we can get around. Hustler would never stop because the hustler knows that they have a dream. And they have a dream. And they have a dream. They have a dream. They have a dream. And it's needed. Their voices need it. Hustler would never stop a hustler will sell this company. Everyone would say, Oh, this is so fast. You just sold our company, got acquired and start another company the very next day and say, Oh, I'm back at square one. That is a hustler. Hustler. We have honorees down in the eighties. That is a hustler. Some people dream to be retired, but nah, I have a dream. And my dream needs to be fed. And nobody can touch the dream. Like I can touch the dream. Yeah, that is a hustler. And I'm honored to be in the city full of that.
Lily Chen: Yeah, this one's a fun question. So your hustle is now your successful career. So what's your new side hustle?
Akil Alvin: Hmm. I never thought about the. My new side hustle would be. Hmm. Hmm. That's a good question. I like this. My new side hustle would be, I would say mental or acting. Okay, I said before I went to the School of Performing Arts, I was an actor. I won a lot of awards. I did some movies. I did Sparkle with Whitney Houston, our last movie. I did some few things. So I think that's the sign. I think that's always that passion of mine. Like, Okay, I need to get back to the stage. I need that instant reaction because that is what I love about what I do today. I can make anyone feel how I want them to feel. Whether I said happy, want them to spend money, want them to stay in. And when you're on the stage, you can get that instant reaction by how much you wave your arms, how your face looks. I would say my side hustle was acting and acting in the theater. I miss it. Now you're making me want to get back to theater. I need to find a way to do this.
Lily Chen: Yeah.
Akil Alvin: You invited by the way.
Lily Chen: Thank you.
Akil Alvin: You're welcome.
Lily Chen: People. They are so dynamic. You're never going to find someone that's into just one thing. Oh, no. You know, so it's so cool when people. Because obviously your passion has turned into this huge career. So of course you have to have new things that are.
Akil Alvin: Absolutely. Yeah, because one of the things we will ask is your dreams and your passion have lives attached to them. Yeah. So your dream. Your passion, that's putting food on the table for families. Yeah. Is. Is, you know, holding a roof over someone's head. So sometimes you need something to fill you up, because what you're doing is you're charging families and generations that you probably will never meet. Yeah. So I need that side hustle to fill me up. And I think that's the idea. And I'm literally thinking, how can I make this happen? Now you got you got me a task. So my communications manager need to, you know, put a play together.
Lily Chen: For the record, she is rolling her eyes.
Akil Alvin: I need to make this happen for the holidays. I want to do The Wiz again and be the lion. I don't know.
Lily Chen: Well, you are such a joy to talk to.
Akil Alvin: Thank you.
Lily Chen: Yeah, just. Just such a joy. And we're so lucky to have you as one of our nominees.
Akil Alvin: I'm honored. Thank you so much. I can't wait to see the exhibit and bring some kids to really see this, to show that it's real. You know, so often we look in museums and we see people who are dead. Yeah. Or see people who were here long before. Or have been here and left. Yeah. And that is somewhere you can't touch. You can't feel. I am honored to be here. And I honestly, if you need someone to polish it, or if it is that nature, that can be a side hustle. So I can polish whatever happens if my pictures up somewhere, make sure it's not dusty and shiny and be security. I will be a, you know, a live curator or whatever we need to do to make sure, you know, I'll be one of them old people. Just give me a stoop or something and I'll make it happen.
Lily Chen: Sounds good. All right, I'm going to hit this button.
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Akil Alvin, August 17th, 2022
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview, Akil Alivn talks about his business Digital Detroit Media also known as DDM which was founded in 2013.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Detroit Historical Society
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Detroit Historical Society
Language
A language of the resource
en-US
Black Business
Detroit
Entrepreneurship
The Hustle
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hustle: Black Entrepreneurship in Detroit
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Detroit Historical Society
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Detroit Historical Society
Language
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English-US
Oral History
An audio or video resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Narrator/Interviewee's Name
The current first and last name of the person speaking or being interviewed.
Latricia Wilder
Brief Biography
A short biography of the Interviewee
Latricia Wilder was born in 1981 on Detroit’s east side.. She went on to open her business Vibe Ride in 2019.
Interviewer's Name
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Lily Chen
Interview Place
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Detroit, MI
Date
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8/23/2022
Interview Length
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45:27
Transcriptionist
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Taylor Claybrook
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
LC [00:00:03] Okay. We're recording. So today is Tuesday, August 23rd. LW[00:00:09] Wow.
LC [00:00:10] Does that sound right?
LW [00:00:11] It is. It's right, but it doesn't sound right.
LC [00:00:14] Yeah, I feel you. So Tuesday, August 23rd. It is around 10:15 a.m. and this is Lily Chen recording a Hustle Project interview for the Detroit Historical Society. And we are so excited to be interviewing our 36 honorees for the amazing work they do in Detroit. So just a couple of reminders. Be careful not to tap, don’t want to touch the table at all because it's just going to create a bunch of sounds.
LW[00:00:46] Gotcha.
LC [00:00:48] And then try to repeat the question back. So, you know, if I say like your what color's your car, you would say my car is red.
LW [00:00:58] Gotcha.
LC [00:01:00] Cool. All right. So let's get started. So go ahead and tell us your full name and then spell it out.
LW [00:01:10] So my full name is Latricia Yvette Wilder.
LC [00:01:22] Awesome. And. Okay. And with what is your business name? LW[00:01:30] Vibe Ride Detroit.
LC [00:01:32] Okay. Where is that located at?
LW [00:01:33] Vibe Ride is located at 1026 Randolph Street in downtown Detroit. Right as you enter into Greektown.
LC [00:01:40] Okay. And what year was your business founded?
LW [00:01:44] So we were founded in my business was founded in 2018. We officially opened the studio in 2019.
LC [00:01:50] Cool. All right. And what year are you from Detroit?
LW [00:01:55] I am a native Detroiter, born and raised, and both my parents are native Detroiters as well.
LC [00:02:01] Cool. West Side. East.
LW [00:02:03] West side.
LC [00:02:05] Right. And what year were you born?
LW [00:02:09] I was born in 1981.
LC [00:02:10] Okay. And tell me about growing up in Detroit.
LW [00:02:14] Growing up in Detroit was amazing. I tell people all the time, I loved being in the city as a young black girl in the city. I was surrounded by people and images that look like me, but that it was expected a certain level of excellence. I mean, I went through Detroit Public Schools, got a great education in there. We had magnet schools with teachers that expected nothing less of you than your best. From Mayor Coleman Young to the community that I lived in, I mean, there were a lot of blue collar workers, but I had no concept of rich and poor or have and have nots. It was very much a communal environment. You worked hard. You saw the benefits of your work. And I tell people all the time, Detroit, to me, if you look up the American dream, it should be a picture of Detroit. So that's what my upbringing was like. I was in a total bubble. I didn't realize that everybody didn't have that or that the world was a little bit different until I left and went to college, but I loved it. I tell anybody, my husband is from New York and I tease him like you were not lucky enough to grow up in the eighties and nineties in Detroit. It was amazing.
LC [00:03:31] Yeah. What was your neighborhood?
LW [00:03:33] I grew up on West Seven Mile. I'm a proud West seven mile path in between Southfield and the Lodge freeway. Literally 7 mile were my grandparents. The other side of seven mile were me and my mom. And then my aunt moved over there. Our whole family was and within two miles of each other, it's amazing. So it was, like I said, very communal. And everyone knew my grandparents had been on that house since my mom was a teen. So they knew everyone on the block, on their block. And then we just all migrated from their house to our own houses, but all in walking distance.
LC [00:04:12] Yeah. And what high school did you go to?
LW [00:04:15] I went to Cass Tech for high school. Wow. The old Cass. LC [00:04:20] There you go. And so you must have been excellent.
LW [00:04:23] Oh, I mean. That's the thing. I didn't feel that way because everyone around me was so like I went to Bates Academy for Middle School, which it was a magnet school you tested to get in, but it was still part of the DPS. And then from there, everyone just knew. You either went to Cass or Renaissance unless you went private for Country Day and Cranbrook and those. But for a kid like me, I was like, there is no other school but Cass. Like, yeah, it was inevitable. So it's funny, when I got to college and people heard I was from Detroit, they're like, oh did you go to Kathryn. Is that. And I'm like, is that their perception. They're like, Detroit has two or three high schools, that's it. Because everyone knew. So I mean my uncles, my cousins, we all went to Cass
LC [00:05:12] Yeah, well, I mean, we're talking one of the best schools in the country.
LW [00:05:16] Oh, my gosh. And I mean, the new one is amazing, but I tell people, don't sleep on the old building. It was old. But we had great times in that building. There was a lot of heritage and history in there.
LC [00:05:27] Yeah. All right, so, um. And then where did you end up going? To college.
LW [00:05:33] I went to college in D.C. at Howard University.
LC [00:05:35] Wow. All right, um, what a cool journey. It's a very, very kind of Detroit journey.
LW [00:05:42] Absolutely. Absolutely.
LC [00:05:44] Um, and did you love being at an HBCU?
LW [00:05:48] Oh, I absolutely do. Like my husband went to Howard. We originally met a Howard. When we got married, it was funny because one of my cousins was like, I feel like it's Howard Homecoming. Yeah, one of my professors. I got married, what, 16 years after I graduated, 15 years after I graduated. And one of my Howard professors flew to Puerto Rico for my wedding. Like, it was really. It continued what I already had in Detroit, the communal environment. And at the time that I went, you know, HBCUs were not huge. I didn't have a lot of friends that went. My mom was so against it until she got there because everyone was going to Michigan State or U of M. So she's like, What do you mean you got a scholarship to go to U of M and Michigan State and I don't have to pay like you're going there. So it was it was unheard of in my family and in my immediate circle to not only leave, but to go to HBCU. Yeah, but since I've had I have a cousin that just went to TSU. Now she's a freshman this year and it became a thing because then people started to visit and they're like, Wait, this is amazing. Yeah. So I loved it.
LC [00:07:00] Being in a community that looks like you changes the game.
LW [00:07:04] Absolutely. I tell people all the time, I didn't have to see Black Panther to have the Wakanda experience. Yeah. Like, I mean, Chad was at Howard when I was at Howard, so it was like, Wait, Chad is Black Panther? Like, I remember him playing a guitar on the steps with these locks, and I was like, This kid's weird. And now, you know, all these people that I saw on campus I'm friends with are doing huge things. And it continued, like I said, this idea of excellence without having to necessarily look outside of your circle for it. Yeah. So it was great.
LC [00:07:40] Yeah, well, you're clearly doing excellent day.
LW [00:07:43] Oh, thank you. Thank you.
LC [00:07:45] So tell me about the path to opening your business.
LW [00:07:49] So I tell people it's funny when you leave and a lot of my friends say this because being outside of Detroit, going to college away, I have friends all over. And so they say that one thing you can never do is talk about Detroit to a Detroiter. And so I lived in New York, I lived in L.A., I was getting older, wanting to start a family, wanted to get back closer to home. And I would come home and I would see things that I felt were lacking because I lived in these other cities and I worked in advertising in my corporate job. And so I would go to different advertisers, different businesses to say, you should come to Detroit. And I went to grad school and do my thesis on Detroit, and I remember pitching that, to Mayor Bing at the time to say, look, we don't have to reinvent the wheel. We just have to tell a different story because being outside of Detroit, you hear what
people are being fed and most people have never been here. So most opinions are not from here. And so when I thought about opening a business, the only place I could think about putting my money into was in Detroit. I was living in New York at the time, but I'm like, There's no way I don't care about these people here. Like I have to go back home. And then when it came to fitness, I went through my own fitness journey. I used to be a
dancer, so I love group things. I'm not a workout person. I tell people all the time. I put all my money in a studio, but I'm not a workout person. I like the energy of being in a group. Yeah. And so I got really into cycling post having my baby because it was a great way to burn calories. Lose weight and it was low impact because I have bad knees for my
dancing days. And so I would come to Detroit and be like, Well, why isn't SoulCycle here? Or We have Flywheel, why aren't they there? And then talk to them. And they're like Detroit. And it was so insulting. Then it became a situation where it start feeling very elitist. And I had to like plan to go work out. I had to have on Lululemon. You had to have if you didn't look a certain way and the price points became $40 a class. And so I'm like, okay, everyone who is a human being needs to be healthy. And why is it now becoming you have to also have a certain level, a certain economic status to have a luxury experience like it was all big box gyms, which is not me, because again, I can't do that. I do not want a gym smelling like a gym. I do not. And so I was looking at opening a studio anyway, but then I was very adamant about being in Detroit, and that was a process to do because a lot of people worked for what I wanted to do was like, go to Ferndale, go to Royal Oak, but I'm like, Why aren't we having these things in the city limits of Detroit? Yeah. And so literally those outside experiences is what brought me back and what made me say, okay, I want to elevate experience at a price point that everyday people can afford, but yet you should still walk in and it smells like lavender and peppermint and it's clean. And you know, after all of our classes, we give ice cold eucalyptus towels and you're paying $15 that I mean, if you buy a pack, you're paying $10. That's less than your latte and a bagel and you're getting 45 minutes. We got lights, we have experience because again, I'm a person working out is work. So we want to take the work out, make it fun, and yet you're still getting healthy. So that's how I ended up doing what I'm doing.
LC [00:11:20] Yeah.
LW [00:11:21] And then it led to more knowledge and workshops and educational stuff because then I realized, so there's a lot of people coming in that want to look good, but then it's the lifestyle that you need. So we have nutritionists that come. We do things
with girls mentorships, we do things with body image and understanding that just because you're a size four doesn't make you healthy. Just because someone's a size 14 doesn't mean they're unhealthy. And so it just expanded from there.
LC [00:11:48] Yeah, that's amazing.
LW [00:11:51] It I did it. It's funny because that's how people I wasn't a trainer that wanted to open a studio. I was a consumer that wanted to find what I liked somewhere else at home and wasn't finding it. So then it was like, if you build it, then you have it.
LC [00:12:07] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's so cool to hear that everything from your upbringing in Detroit to your experiences outside of Detroit brought you to where you are today.
LW [00:12:17] Absolutely. Absolutely. It is all a part of the journey.
LC [00:12:21] Yeah. So I heard you say that you so you went to you know, Howard, you also got a masters. What did you study when you were in school?
LW [00:12:30] So I went to USC for my grad school and I got a masters in marketing communication management. Okay. And so it was funny. I tell people this story not to brag, I tell people this story not to brag, but I won the thesis competition for my graduating class. And I say, I always tell people I won because it was on Detroit. Yeah. And so my thesis was re-imagining the city of Detroit, using the principles of branding and imaging. And so I did a case study of making Detroit, I say, a talented Kardashian at the time.
LC [00:13:06] What does that mean?
LW [00:13:07] Because the Kardashians was huge and I'm like, they're huge for no reason. So I'm like, Detroit actually has flavor and style, so let's take the principles used. And then I did case studies on other cities that did city branding like New York and Philly and Las Vegas, which at times were horrible and didn't change. Much of the infrastructure changed the story. Yeah. And then people come and then you get money to change the infrastructure. And in Detroit, I have found that we have done a lot. I still think there's some truth to this. We've done a lot of building and growing in the city, but we're just recycling city dollars. I started dating my husband 11 years ago officially, and he had no clue we had casinos. The casinos have been here since I was a kid, since I was in high school. Really? But he has no clue that there's three casinos in Detroit. Most people do not know we're looking at Canada. All they know is what they hear. And so I'll bring him back to grad school. I opened up my thesis speech with saying, What if for $300 you can go to a place where you're looking at an international border. You have a huge three casinos to choose from. You're downtown on the water. You have all these things. You can go 45. Minutes out. Go kayaking on a lake. Would you go? Everyone in the room raised their hand and then I said, What if I told you it was Detroit? The room went silent. But no one knows that.
LC [00:14:36] Hmm.
LW [00:14:36] And so I think that's also what led me back to bringing business here, bringing friends here, you know, advocating more on people actually visiting the city before you build an impression of the city. Yeah. So, yeah, that was a long way to say I with the USC but it was all about again, part of that journey was still the city.
LC [00:15:00] Yeah. So how did you come up with the name for your business and picked the location?
LW [00:15:07] So Vibe Ride actually is a business that two of my friends started in Atlanta. And I worked with them with what they were doing in Atlanta. And I was like, hey, let's do this in Detroit. And they were like, Go for it. Yeah. And so part of the mission of adding of another location to what was already existing was at the time having some type of franchise environment. Because you have these soul cycles, you have all these other things and you have a lot of people doing individual projects. But if you do more collaboration, it creates a bigger footprint, and then you have a bigger impression globally, internationally, even just in the U.S.. And so I was like, let me give you your first location outside of Atlanta. So now we become a national brand. And I was already working on doing a studio anyway, so we just collaborated on the imaging of Vibe Ride.
LC [00:16:06] Cool. So are you the second location?
LW [00:16:09] I am the third. Actually, they have two in Atlanta and one here. LC [00:16:14] Okay, cool. And do you think that will continue to expand?
LW [00:16:17] Hopefully. I mean, the pandemic changed a lot of things because we had all these meetings and talked about this going into the pandemic because at the time SoulCycle was coming to Atlanta. And so a lot of smaller boutique studios were freaking out because unfortunately, we tend to go with the trends. And so it was like, okay, let's start being bigger because you give an impression that you're bigger then, you know, tell the story, then people buy into it. Then the pandemic hit. So a lot of things have been paused because a lot of studios have closed, a lot of businesses are gone, a lot of people are changing the way they have been doing things, how they've been working out. So who knows? I mean, it's still up in the air on that, but that was the intention going into it.
LC [00:17:06] Yeah. Well, I'm glad to hear that the like Second City to host Vibe Ride.
LW [00:17:14] Is here. Absolutely. Absolutely.
LC [00:17:17] So tell me about the studio. What is it like?
LW [00:17:21] I tell people it's the perfect blend of a spa and a kick ass workout. You come in, it's very spa feeling. We're actually doing some renovations now that will enhance our communal space for workshops, more workshops, more meditations, bringing other small businesses that got hurt through the pandemic and need space to give them space because I have a lot of it. And then you go into what is our like dungeon, which is our cycle room. It's all black, it's party lights. We got TVs in there, we have a DJ booth, and again, we make it a fun workout. We do cycle classes and body classes, which now body classes are going to be in a dungeon as well to give the same experience. And then you get 45 minutes of just. The most fun you will have on a bike and or on a floor. I mean, literally, you are watching music videos. We have everything is rhythm based. So it's all about music beats partying on a bike, partying on the floor, and then afterwards you get a eucalyptus towel. We have cycle shoes that are provided. So you can have a great elevated experience. You have we have towels, we have showers, private showers, we have private restrooms. So it's very much that's why I say it's a perfect blend of a spa and a workout facility because all of the amenities are spa esque and then the workout is a workout.
LC [00:18:48] Yeah, it sounds amazing.
LW [00:18:52] It's so much fun. I mean, I'm biased, of course, but what I found is if we can get you in studio, we usually get you hooked. Most people, especially because there's nothing like it. Like there really isn't anything like it in the city. I don't know if I've seen it in state, maybe Ann Arbor, but there's nothing like our studio in the city. And so people are like, Oh, I've been to a cycle class, okay? Or I've done TRX or I just went to, you know, Cycle Bar that's a boutique cycle studio. And I'm like, No, come to a vibe class because it is a vibe, no pun intended. And usually when we get people in studio, it's a different experience.
LC [00:19:33] Yeah, a lot of people, you know, their hesitation with, you know, working out or going to a studio like you were saying is that they don't feel they feel like
they don't belong. Absolutely right. And it sounds like you're doing a lot of work to make sure that that's not the case.
LW [00:19:50] We do a lot of work to be inclusive, to be communal. I just had a guy tell me he met the love of his life in our studio on a bike, or we have people that are friends now. We had a one of our clients whose I mean, I don't even want to call her a client at this
point. Three years later, who threw a pool party at her house for the entire staff. Because, again, it's not about how you look. It's not about scores. It's about getting there. That's all we say. If you can get in here and move your legs, if you're on a bike rock side to side, if you're on the floor, you're making progress. And so we keep the room dark and we have lights because it's your own personal journey. And the group mentality is that they're there to encourage, we're there to uplift. I mean, one of my coaches, I told them, is the most screaming meditational or motivational coach you ever have. She's screaming at you, but she's like literally scream. She might throw a towel at you, but you're going to come out of there not only feeling good because you walked out feeling good about who you are. And so I tell everybody that comes through our door and anybody that's on our team, if people can give it's so hard to have an hour dedicated just to yourself. I'm a mom, I'm a business owner. I work, I have a husband, I have my older parents, I have nieces and nephews. It's so hard to give yourself an hour. So if people dedicate an hour of their time to us, we need to make that the best hour of their day. Yeah. And so going in with that mentality, that's what we tell customers, that's what we tell everyone. So everyone is basically doing this on written oath that if you come in here, like even on your worst day, we're here to try to help you feel better because it's about you. And so it's really been working so far, knock on wood, that is that's been the intention has been what has been set. That's what I put as you come through the space and it's been working so far. And so, you know, we have all sizes as coaches, so that's inviting to customers. We have ourselves, we have one of our coaches theme is Thick thighs Save Lives. She's like, I will never be a skinny girl, but that does not matter. We have our ages. We have one customer bring his mom just to come because he got a free pass. She's like, Oh, I don't do this now. She comes more than him.
LC [00:22:14] Wow.
LW [00:22:15] So, you know, we don't… I did this because I didn't want anybody to feel how I felt when I walked into a studio and was like, wait, if I'm feeling this way, and for all appearances, no one would think I'm unhealthy and I'm already questioning my gap attire or I'm questioning if I can pay my cellphone bills. I can take a class that you should never feel that way when the point is supposed to be getting healthy, motivational, all of those things.
LC [00:22:49] So yeah. So it sounds like you have a you have a team of people. LW [00:22:53] Oh, absolutely.
LC [00:22:54] And how did you how did you recruit your team?
LW [00:22:58] All over going through the city. I tease them because I'm like, we were the land of misfit toys at one point because a lot, especially some of my cycle instructors, we worked hard. We had bike. Then living rooms, practicing and getting people on rhythm and going over cadences and how to be fun. And because there were people that were supposed to be like the best of the best in the city. And sometimes with that that comes arrogance, ego, and that I didn't want to deal with. And so I had a combination. But then I would see how people were treating each other or I don't believe that anyone works
for anyone. So like the most important people are my experience curators, which is front desk. So everyone on the team knows the only time you will get fussed at from me is if they talk about you. I don't care about a coach. I don't care who you are. If the experience curator's got a problem, I have a problem. So that sets the tone in itself because usually people look at front desk people as the bottom of the barrel, they are the top. So if they're the top and then they have a problem, it just trickles from there. And so with that, I just found people that were on that mission. And then they brought people, other people brought people to me. And it's funny, I did a podcast interview because they were asking, how did our team get so diverse? Because we check almost every box you can think of. And I was like, I don't know, it just happened that way because that's what we we just want to humans. I'm like, if you're not a human being, then you can't work here. Like real feeling human. I don't care about ideas, politics, any of those things. Like, I just need you to care about other humans, and if you don't show that, then you have to go. But if you do, we can work out everything else. We're a rhythm studio. I had one coach that was like, I have no rhythm, but I loved him. His spirit, his energy. Okay, so we're in a living room with bikes and moving bikes in my truck trying to get him on beat then he got on beat and but he couldn't stay on beat when he talked. So we would make him ride and talk all over it all like say the alphabet, say that he's one of my best instructors now. But it became it became our own project. Like, I had other coaches doing the same thing because it became our project. But I think that is how we built rapport. That is how people stop being coworkers and then started hanging out and going to concerts together and not inviting me and doing all these other things. And so that's how our team has migrated into what it is. And so then when we bring new people in, we all just wrap around them and it just goes from there.
LC [00:25:41] Yeah. How big is the team I have?
LW [00:25:45] What is it, eight or nine coaches and four experience curators right now. We usually have more from on the front desk team, but COVID, we lowered our schedule. We're still on a limited schedule. Hopefully that will go back up come fall, especially winter. And I'm looking for a couple more coaches.
LC [00:26:07] Okay. Um, you know, you're experiencing, uh, just this kind of extraordinary success. It's so cool to hear you talk about it. Tell us about, you know, a lot of people when they first start on the journey. It is hard.
LW [00:26:22] Oh, my gosh. It's still hard. Yeah, it is still hard. I keep telling people we're on our grand re re re reopening at this point. But I would tell anybody, just the the start is always difficult. No one really knows what it's like to start a business until you do it because you can plan and you can prep. But it's still going to be different once you live it, but believe in what you're doing and don't be afraid to fail and don't be afraid to ask for help. I wish I knew that part earlier, but do not the reason my studio is still where it is today through the longest pandemic and the worst that we've seen in our lifetime is because I started asking for help and people helped me in ways that I couldn't even imagine. And if I did not open up my mouth, I would not be sitting here. And so I would tell people from day one, if you do not, there's no you don't look better doing it all by yourself like you do not get extra kudos. Yeah, doing it all by yourself. Lean on the people that you can. You will be surprised. The people that end up being the people you can lean on. They are people that have come to my aid that I did not know a year ago and yet now I call them for everything. And collaboration is key. Collaboration across the board is absolutely key.
LC [00:27:52] Yeah. Um, tell me about, like, the. The lowest of lows and the highest of highs.
LW [00:28:00] The lowest of lows was in the pandemic. I wasn't getting answers like I needed. I could not see how this was going to be sustainable. I started to feel like I just took all of my money and I have a kid. And how am I going to explain to her why she can't do anything? Because her mom built the studio and then the pandemic came, and then we have no more money. That was my lowest of laws and thinking, what am I built
this team now I have to let them down like. Being an owner can be a very lonely process. So because I love the people that work with me, I was very much everybody was I felt everybody on my back and how can I make this work I took from my family. Now I'm taking from my new family. The highest of the highs is right now is the expanding of our offerings, the being able to bring in some other entrepreneurs and give them space that are probably where I was a couple of months ago. Finding a new life. Being still being here. I mean, I haven't I have not been making money per se, but we've been sustaining. And so the prospect of getting back into a position of like going beyond just making it re staffing, I mean, the excitement of what's to come is my highest of high. So that's right now.
LC [00:29:41] Yeah. If you could make one wish come true for your business, what would that be?
LW [00:29:49] One wish for me or my business. For my business is that we can expand to get more people in the studio. We've done well with penetrating downtown. We take bikes out into the community. We do free community classes. And I mean, we move bikes, which most people will not do. Oh, we move 18 bikes. You, me driving a U-Haul. That's why I love my team, because they have lifted bikes. We run in the rain. But just to continue to expand going into, you know, retirement homes, bringing classes to its elderly and children that really are my my thing, my my mission for the studio is to get, you know, working class, able bodied people to start thinking about their health different. My wish and my like Dream Rainbow in the sky would be able to also expand that to touch more of our elderly and more of our kids, because those two groups, unfortunately, I believe, get neglected the most. And I think if you start people early on understanding what food really is and how it affects your body and not saying health as wealth as like a catch phrase, but understand why people say that, especially in black and brown communities, because the reason we are higher at risk for every disease out there is not because you're black or brown is because of lifestyle choices and not having food equity. You don't have the same equity in inner cities as you do in the suburbs. You they just don't even give you the same produce. So you could be eating an apple and it's still not the same quality and is still has GMOs and everything else pumped into it. I had this conversation with my mom If your apple does not go bad in a week, don't buy it again. Because why is fruit not dying? Anything that lives dies. So just having more of those conversations with people that can get it and I think kids get more than we give them credit for. The food in DPS is not the best. We're feeding crap. So then you build bad habits and then those become lifestyles. And one thing we're unfortunately really good at is looking good on the outside. We'll cover it up wonderfully and then turn up sick and don't know why. So if we can evangelize more outside of just our bubble. That's my rainbow.
LC [00:32:31] Yeah. So we're joined by your daughter today. Um, hi. And this is so funny. Um, we're so lucky to have her. Has she been part of your journey?
LW [00:32:44] Absolutely. Everyone at the studio knows her, from her washing windows and bikes with me to us doing coach training and she's telling people to spin faster. And I mean being outside with us, moving bikes like she is definitely part of the vibe tribe making videos. She when I started this journey, she was two. So she's pretty much
grown throughout the studio. And so everyone pretty yeah, they pretty much know her from her company and with our vibe shirt. And I love it because I didn't think about how it would affect her. But at one point I was like, I may have to close the studio. And she started crying. And I'm like, Really? And she's like, You can’t close the Studio… One where she's going to have her lemonade stand, because clearly that's the most important thing. But two, she's been just as integral in the growth of it as I have from her sleeping in there on yoga mat to being there at 6 a.m. with me when I'm working front desk to just dragging along. And so, you know, it's part of it's me part of my educating her through it.
LC [00:34:01] Do you wanna come say something? Come use Mom's mic. What are you gonna say?
LW [00:34:09] When I'm watching.
LW’S daughter [00:34:11] YouTube kids on computers in the front.
LW [00:34:14] That do… that or watching movies in the cycle room. LW’s daughter [00:34:19] that's my private part. So don’t interrupt me.
LW [00:34:22] Okay. Thank you, darling.
LC [00:34:25] Do you want to tell us what's your favorite part about the studio?
LW [00:34:28] What's your favorite part about the studio?
LW’s daughter [00:34:31] Making the money so I can so, like, so at night time,I can sneak in my mom in a room and get it all.
LW [00:34:41] Oh, my.
LC [00:34:41] Goodness. Maybe not the answer we were looking for.
LW [00:34:43] Not at all.
LC [00:34:43] But an excellent one.
LW [00:34:44] Six year olds.
LC [00:34:46] Excellent.
LW [00:34:47] They say terrible twos. They lie. It's five, six, seven.
LC [00:34:53] No, you're excellent.
LC [00:35:10] Does anything come to mind in terms of, like, stories you want to share? Fun, fun things that come to mind in your journey.
LW [00:35:19] I mean, everything's been fun. Even the hard times have been fine. I can't lie. I don't have one story. I mean, we. As a team. We make stories every other day like our staff is pretty hilarious from us. Having one person came up with bikes and beers and then in the summertime. So then that became a huge thing like happy hour after class,
us getting rained on, moving bikes and slipping and sliding everywhere and just. I mean, we've been all over this city with these bikes. And literally, I just I'm doing pictures when I didn't have a studio there doing construction. And we're in the back trying to make it look
like something like I love everyone that's been on this journey with me and I'm very excited for what's to come and especially with the city, have one thing I'm very, very proud of. I was very adamant about being downtown. And I will say I want to say this part. I was very adamant about being downtown because I kept hearing this narrative of the new Detroit, the new Detroit, new, you know, new, new, new, new, new. And I was like, you know, you can't have completely new if you have some old flavor, if you have old flavor mixed in. And so I remember telling someone, you know, I've been coming in these downtown streets since the nineties. Like I danced on Broadway at Detroit, Windsor, and I went to Cass and we would take the people mover. And I remember watching the Hudson building get blown up in my grandmother's living room as a whole family and my grandmother tearing up. Like, there are so many native Detroiters that are here and all over the country that still bleeds that Detroit. And so it doesn't have to be the new Detroit. It can be the re re re re re grand opening of Detroit. But nothing is completely new if you keep a little bit of the old integrated in there. And so that was a big part of my mission to beyond just the studio, which is having a business where you still can feel the Detroit that I loved and that I grew up in because it hasn't left. It's gone through stages, like everything, like my business, right? Detroit has had her highs and her lows, but she's excited for what's to come as I'm excited for what's to come. And as long as we keep people speaking up on where she's been, in who she has been, she can stay true to that as well as be new. And so I think that is important. That is more than a good story for me that but that's very important that we don't run away from the newness because you can still infiltrate, integrate, not even infiltrate, integrate the old with the new. And it doesn't have to be completely new. It can just be revamped. And so that that is really part of my Latricia mission and why I had to be downtown at a lot of friends give me slack for being downtown in the beginning a lot of friends telling me I'm turning my back on the city by going downtown. But that was important to me to be downtown because you got to keep old flavor.
LC [00:38:52] Yeah.
LW [00:38:53] Because. And you have no voice if you're not there. So that's it.
LC [00:38:58] Yeah. Well, I have some fun questions for you, so. What does Hustle mean to you?
LW [00:39:09] Never stopping. Just constantly figuring it out. When you fall, fall forward. So when you get up, you're a little bit farther than you are when you fail. So it's just that they're nonstop. Something. The door is closed. Find a window. The window is not open, find a vent. How can you keep moving forward?
LC [00:39:33] Awesome. What about the word hustler?
LW [00:39:35] A hustler is the execution of that. Yeah. Hustler is our Detroit. Hustler is are the people that are going to get it done no matter what. No matter what. You find a way and they always find a way.
LC [00:39:52] Yeah, you know, your hustle became your full time job?
LW [00:40:01] Yeah, absolutely.
LC [00:40:02] Do you have a new side hustle?
LW [00:40:06] Oh, I keep side hustles. I keep side hustles. I mean, I've been doing some consulting. I do. I'm on a couple advisory boards. My real side hustle has turned into some more RV advocacy in the city, because now that I am an entrepreneur in the city and I see how small businesses are sometimes treated and how a lot of small business owners
won't speak up. I have no shame in speaking. I'm not I. The seven mile limit doesn't make me square so. Advocacy has been my main side hustle from city council to governor to, you know, advocating for more money for small businesses, advocating for more transparency to small businesses, advocating for more resources. So that is my biggest right now, because even if my business doesn't survive, there's so many businesses that there are so many people that just haven't had the access that I've been fortunate to have. And so that doesn't mean that their business isn't worthy of of getting resources and staying. And so that that's my biggest side hustle right now.
LC [00:41:18] Yeah, that's a good side hustle.
LW [00:41:21] It is very emotional, but it's for a bigger purpose. So I'm here for it.
LC [00:41:27] Yeah, absolutely. Well, I have to say personally, you know, my wife and I are both women of color. And our fitness journey is difficult. It's been difficult because I feel like for me and all of our queer women of color friends. We are not the type of people that you see, you know, at a SoulCycle. So it's hard at all.
LW [00:41:50] You should not have to look like a model to go work out.
LC [00:41:53] Yeah.
LW [00:41:53] Ah. You should not feel like you're being judged because you're working out like it's insane.
LC [00:41:59] Yeah. And we're always. We're always the only women of color at any studio. You know? So the work that you're doing is important, you know, and you know that. But I just feel so grateful.
LW [00:42:14] Well, thank you. Thank you. We do. I mean, like I said, we check every box and I don't usually say no too much. So we've had so many theme rides. We've done pride rides, we've done. We had watch out for the big girl events and then we had sexy stilettos. So people came with partners. We had guys in heels, girls in heels. We do almost anything that someone thinks of. If I can make it, we can find a calendar. We do. Because again, the point is that no one feels out of place at all and because the world is so crappy in so many ways. And so I tell people, if you can make it in this door, I have 2400 square feet. Hopefully you can just feel free to be free in 2400 square feet, because as soon as you go back outside, you deal with everything else that is just weighing you down constantly. I can't even watch the news. So I appreciate you saying that because that is really part of our mission and how some of my coaches came because they even as coaches were feeling unappreciated, undervalued, disrespected, comments being made in their presence and you don't even know who they are or what boxes they check. I have one coach that is Hispanic and he's like, they didn't I don't look it. So I'm here and people make comments and it's like they don't even know they're talking about me. Insane. So again, if you're human, you're welcome. Because we're surrounded by aliens. I'm
convinced. Yeah, I am convinced that there are aliens infiltrating America, for sure. So if you can care about people, you're here.
LC [00:44:05] Yeah. Yeah. You know, everyone. Every fitness is for everyone.
LW [00:44:10] It. It should be. It really should be. Because we all need it. Yeah, we all need it. And the statistics are horrible, so we have to do something about it. We either are part of the solution or the problem.
LC [00:44:22] Yeah, you're absolutely right. And, you know, the the class problem in fitness is so real. You know, it is.
LW [00:44:29] Absolutely. Absolutely. If you're if you're paying 30, $40 a month, then the facility is dirty and it looks like crap. And you don't to and it's insane because you're still spending money. Or if you're paying 40, $50 a class, you have the red carpet. And again, it's still the same bike. That's the part I don't get. Yeah. So, you know, we all we all are out here doing our little piece to make it better, to make the world, our allies, our environment better than how we left it. And so there's enough people out there because I know some and then I know there's many that I don't know that are out there trying to make it better. And so as long as we keep doing that, I'm very hopeful that we can create our own little bubbles of utopia because no one else is going to do it for us.
LC [00:45:21] Yeah. Well, it was amazing talking to you.
LW [00:45:25] Thank you.
LC [00:45:25] I'm going to hit the end.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Latricia Wilder, August 23rd, 2022
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview, Latricia Wilder walks about her business Vibe Ride and her story of being a native Detroiter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Detroit Historical Society
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Detroit Historical Society
Language
A language of the resource
en-US
Black Business
Detroit
Entrepreneurship
The Hustle
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hustle: Black Entrepreneurship in Detroit
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Detroit Historical Society
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Detroit Historical Society
Language
A language of the resource
English-US
Oral History
An audio or video resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Narrator/Interviewee's Name
The current first and last name of the person speaking or being interviewed.
Seajoseffer Spencer
Brief Biography
A short biography of the Interviewee
Seajoseffer Spencer bought his first restaurant in 1983 with Doug Morrison. Together they have operated the legendary restaurant Louisiana Creole Gumbo.
Interviewer's Name
The first and last name of the interviewer.
Billy Wall-Winkel
Interview Place
The place where the interview was conducted.
Detroit, MI
Date
The date of the interview in MM/DD/YYYY format.
9/01/2022
Interview Length
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43:02
Transcriptionist
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Taylor Claybrook
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:00:00] Hello. My name is Billy Wall-Winkel. This interview is for the Detroit Historical Society's Hustle Project. We are in Detroit, Michigan, and today is September 1st, 2022. I'm sitting down with…
Joe Spencer [00:00:13] Seajoseffer Spencer, but known by most folks as Joe Spencer.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:00:19] Thank you so much. Can you please spell your name for me?
Joe Spencer [00:00:21] My full name is Seajoseffer, last name Spencer.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:00:31] Thank you for that. And congratulations again on being one of the honorees.
Joe Spencer [00:00:36] Well, I'm excited about it. Thank you.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:00:38] Awesome. Let's get some just some baseline stuff out of the way real quick. What year did the restaurant open?
Joe Spencer [00:00:44] The restaurant opened in 1970. It was opened by a gentleman by the name of Joe Stafford. And I had the good fortune. Me and another friend who is my partner, Doug Morrison, bought the restaurant from the original owner, Joe Stafford, in 1983.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:01:05] Did the restaurant have the same name when it opened in 1970?
Joe Spencer [00:01:09] A very similar name. The name of the restaurant in 1970 was Louisian Creole Gumbo. But we changed it to Louisiana Creole gumbo because of some conflict with the company in. In Louisiana that had the name Louisiana. It was Louisian Coffee Company. And when it was discovered that we were using the same name, they asked us to cease and desist. And we changed our name to Louisiana Creole gumbo.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:01:44] And what year did you change it?
Joe Spencer [00:01:46] 1983.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:01:47] Oh, okay. Did you happen to work at the restaurant before you purchased it or did you were you a fan of it? And then the opportunity came up. How did that come about?
Joe Spencer [00:02:02] Well, it's an interesting story. This is back in 1982. My friend Doug and I were downtown I lived in downtown Detroit at that time. And we're looking down on the crowd of people, because I lived in a high rise apartment building. And we were talking and I asked him to join me in an investment I wanted to make in real estate, as was a small apartment building on Detroit's West Side. I was interested in acquiring, and so I asked him what he would you be my partner? And he was like, Yes, sure. We've talked about it for a minute. And as we're looking down at the people walking downtown, Joe, Doug said, Hey, Joe, I got another idea that we might want to consider. I say, What's that? He says, You see all those people walking down there? He says, You know, I bet you there's a restaurant over on Gratiot. There's some really, really good food. And Louisiana Creole gumbo. Louisian Creole gumbo. I bet you we could probably go to this guy and ask
him for a franchise and we would come downtown and do a little franchise down here and do real good with the food. I said, okay, so I'll tell you what, let's flip a coin. I went to toss. We'd go see about the real estate when the toss would go see the guy about the restaurant, and he won the toss. And as a result of that we went to the restaurant. I'd never been there before, but I tried the food and I instantly fell in love with the food. It was so good and I was like, okay, great. So we made an appointment with the owner and we made our proposal to the owner, you know, that we want to do a franchise. And Mr. Stafford said to us as well fellas, you know, if you do come to me ten years ago. That would have been great. But I'm ready to retire, he said. So I tell you what. If you can come up with X amount of dollars and wasn’t a lot of money. He says, I will say this restaurant lock, stock and barrel. I'll sell you know my name how do the food everything the business itself and you know, I'll do that for you guys. And then he also agreed to stay. In fact, he stayed for a full year. After he bought that, we bought the restaurant. We took possession of it. Coming to work every day. He's showing us how to operate the restaurant. That’s the story.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:04:26] I bet that that grace period he gave you was invaluable.
Joe Spencer [00:04:30] Oh, yes. I mean, you know, here's the other side of the story. At that time, I was working for WGPR TV. I had a really good job of director of programing. I was making good money and I wasn't really when I was making the pros, I was looking for kind of a a passive investment, not an active investment where I would actually be involved in trying to make it work. So we brought on another partner fellow by the name of Charles Martin. And Charles, we made him the managing partner because my partner, Doug, he also had a good job. He was working for Michigan Bill at that time. It was Michigan Bill that wasn't AT&T. And excuse me. And. So we brought on Charles and Charles did the day to day for us. And so, yeah. Mr. Stanford coming in every day showing us not only how to prepare the food, but how to how to shop for the vendors to use. You know, how to know when when the food is at its premium, you know how to price the food, just the whole thing, you know, and you know, to keep this customer base because he had a really good solid customer base. In fact, one of the things that made it such a good investment because he had such a good reputation, the restaurant was doing fine. It was not a distressed restaurant with a restaurant doing great, and he was just ready to retire.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:05:57] Looking back do aside from. Managing the restaurant. Are there any lessons that he taught you in that year that still stick with you?
Joe Spencer [00:06:08] Well, yeah, you know, he taught me about, uh, about employees. How to manage employees. He taught me about the food cause I didn't know anything about Creole style food gave me. Taught me the history of the food. And, you know, just what it took. And he also taught us how to keep the books together and all that. Because I'd never been in my own business, not like that. You know, I'd been in other kind of passive ventures, but not a business where you had employees. And as an example of one of the things he taught me, which was very eye opening, uh, one of the things we wanted to do is we want to really kind of have an aggressive approach to marketing respond to our customers. So it was like when a customer come in, you know, you make sure you ask them, you know, Hey, would you like some extra this and would you like some extra that and so forth? You know, and when we put it out there, he says, you know, you guys don't expect a lot from that. And there's a reason why he says because. People who are doing this kind of work, they don't necessarily like to have to ask people for stuff. They want to take the order and go. And, he says. And if they ask a person, that person rejects it, they're going to take it personal, you know, and that you know, and they're not
going to understand. It's going to take you and it's going to take some real effort to try to teach them that it's not personal, you know, that it is just you're just doing a job. And the person that you're asking is not rejecting you personally. It is saying no to what you’re asking them for the product, which was something that you wouldn't think of. You know, if you're not in that position. But he knew, you know, and he was right, you know, that, you know, the people just didn't didn't you know. Some would be okay with it, but some would just like, you know, they'd ask and you had to be standing there, right there looking at em for them to, you know, ask the customer for the extras, you know, would you like extra shrimp? Would you like a dessert with your dinner? Would you like a beverage? You know, that kind of thing. So that's just one of the things he taught me.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:08:13] So what was so what was the reaction of. The clientele to the changeover. Was their worry or was that kind of ease because he was there for a full year during the transition?
Joe Spencer [00:08:25] Well, you know, as a carryout restaurant, it was not really perceptible that there was a change, you know, because we kept the people who we had. Yeah, you know, the people out of the house people. So they did not see that difference. I mean, over time we changed it. But when we first got started there, you know, he was there to make sure we maintained the quality of the food and it was prepared in a way that that he had been doing so. No. And the customers, I mean, we didn't try to become the face of the of the, uh, of the business. You know, we just wanted to continue rolling on smoothly. So, no, no, no, no. Negative reaction at all.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:09:08] So what was the. Maybe, you know, maybe don't. But what was what was the makeup of the clientele at the time? Was it largely local residents or did you see as like the greater Detroit area coming to the restaurant?
Joe Spencer [00:09:20] Well, it had a really broad base clientele and still does because the uniqueness of the product, I mean, at that time. Joe Stafford was the first restaurant to introduce Creole style food to Detroit. That was no competitors serving gumbo, jambalaya, you know, those kinds of products. So when people experience it, you know, was the only place I could go. And because for those people who were traveling from New Orleans and were familiar with the food, they found that we had it. You know, they'd come back and we had people from all over. The largest part of the clientele were people who lived in the area, worked downtown, a lot of people who work downtown. You know, they came to the from the courts in the city kind of building into businesses downtown. And then, of course, the people who were in the area for three miles around, you know.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:10:18] And what was the neighborhood like when you first got the business in 83? Were there a lot of other restaurants still an eastern market or what was the makeup of the area?
Joe Spencer [00:10:28] Well, Eastern Market was..I think a little bit more vibrant back then, was a few more businesses there. There have always been restaurants in the area. You know, being a carryout restaurant, we're not in competition so much with the restaurants who do sit down service. You know, when we were there, right across the street from us was the very famous Joe Muers restaurant at that time, which was a very famous seafood restaurant. And so some of their customers with us as well, you know, I mean, they eat there and then come across and pick up carryout from us. So really a good make up of African-American, white, Latino, young, old, well-to-do and not so well-to-do people. Really good, good cross-section of people.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:11:18] And how has the neighborhood changed? So Louisiana creole gumbo has been in the same spot. Since then, it's been an anchor. But many other businesses have come and gone. What has been. What has that been like?
Joe Spencer [00:11:33] Well, I mean, you know, businesses ebbed and flowed based upon the economy and things going on in Detroit. So we've had some rough years and we've had some great years, but we've always been able to to stick. We've seen a lot of businesses come and go over the years, you know, including Joe Muer’s. It's a very famous restaurant. And there were other restaurants down, up and down Gratiot that we've seen come and go. And most of them I don't remember the names that names I, I know there was a barbecue place down the street and there was a little bar across the street. And, you know, there have been, you know, lots of different businesses throughout the eastern market. So but, you know, we it has not always been great times. You know, there's been times when things were pretty tough, but we were able to stick it out. Yeah.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:12:21] In any of those hard times. Did you ever think about selling the restaurant?
Joe Spencer [00:12:25] No, you know. You know, to me, I've always taken it on a spiritual level with this business because. Joe Stafford basically gave us the gift of his legacy because the money sold us the restaurant to was far below what it could do he could have sold it for. But when we came to him, he liked us. He liked what we were talking about. And he gave us his legacy. And it was always my dream and vision to continue to grow his legacy, because it is his legacy. We are still serving the same food that he taught us in the same way that he taught us. You know, we've added a few things over the years, but, you know, the basics of gumbo, jambalaya, creole red beans and rice, corn muffins, we've done those and have not changed the recipes. We've done variations or added new kinds of recipes. For instance, we have the gumbo supreme where we didn't have to gumbo supreme, it was there. But that's really a combination of the green beans and he's taught us how to do and put in for new tastes. But still, the fundamentals and all of our product is based upon three basic spices. They're very special spices, blends that only a handful of people know how to blend and they control the taste of the food, you know, that we use in everything in one way or another to have the consistency of our taste. But having this gift, as I say, from from Joe Stafford, I always wanted to continue to have it grow. And it would only be that I was forced to shut down, that I would have shut down, you know, and fortunately God has been with us and we have not had to do that.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:14:07] How has the business grown since you got it in 83?
Joe Spencer [00:14:12] Well, it's growing both in terms of how we operate as well as the revenue. You know, we've expanded to raise revenue ten times, you know, ten times what it was when we were there. We've grown from one restaurant we had when we bought the restaurant to now we have three restaurants. We also have two food trucks. And we did. And before the pandemic had a pretty good catering business as well. We've not done so much with that just because of people issues, you know, trying to get good employees to do that kind of service. But it's there and we will resume it. But yeah, we went from that one location to three and the two food trucks and the catering business. And also when we first bought the restaurant, it was only open five days a week. It was open Monday through Friday and it was only open from 11 to 5:30. You just did basically lunch business and we had a good business. But now you know. Well. In some ways we are operating the same way at the restaurant at Seven Mile and Orchard lake Road because we work with limited
hours now. Because of the shortage of good help now. And that really is a challenge for my business as it is with many other businesses that are in the service industry. It's just it's it's it's hard to find good people right now following the pandemic. And so we are still waiting for people to return to the workforce. And so we're working at a reduced capacity as a result of that.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:16:10] So going in that same thread there, what was it like for you? So you mentioned that you weren't going to close the restaurant unless you guys shut down. What was it like getting shut down for the stay at home order back in 2020?
Joe Spencer [00:16:23] Well. I mean, that was that was not a shut down, as you would think from lack of business was shut down because of the governor's mandate. And you know what she had asked all businesses to do. And, and, but even more so because my employees were afraid to come to work. You know, a lot of my employees are people who don't necessarily have cars. So they had to catch the bus and they were afraid to get on the bus. And the public transportation, a lot of them were living with older people in their homes and they didn't want to bring back something that would harm their, you know, people in their families. And some were just afraid for themselves, you know, so it was a scary time. But we weren't closed for about three months. We closed in April and we were able to open in July. So we're about three months closing and once we open. Because there were so few restaurants open at the time. We did a lot of business, you know, so it was good, but we could have done more. But we didn't have the people standing along long lines and, you know, just waiting a long period of time for us to do it because we worked with half the staff that we would normally work with. So that was problematic for us.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:17:44] And I'm guessing the I can assume from within being willing to stand in the long lines that they were enthusiastic that you were back.
Joe Spencer [00:17:50] Of course they were, you know, because we were the the opposite of the fast food restaurant, you know, the burgers and fries. I mean, we had real food. We were cooking from scratch food, you know. I mean, it's a wholesome food, you know. So, yeah, they were glad to get a decent meal, you know? Yeah. Yeah, very much so.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:18:09] Have you seen traffic at your location on Gratiot return to pre pandemic levels?
Joe Spencer [00:18:25] Yes and no. When we first opened up because there was no competition. Like I said, we'd be busy all day long, you know, and we I think we picked up a lot of new customers as a result of that because they didn't have any other options. But as the economy has begin to open up, you know, things have kind of backed off a little bit. And we're doing fine. We're doing fine financially, you know. But we were doing business like we've not seen before. The pandemic, you know, was greater than what we were doing before the pandemic when we for that first almost year and then, like I see as other restaurants begin to open and people get we begin to get and have more options for decent food, you know, restaurants that could sit down in restaurants that were cooking food, not just. Burgers and fries and fried chicken. Yeah, right, exactly. So it kind of backed off, but we're fine.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:19:24] During that period, you mentioned, you pick up some new customers. I like how Joe had to explain it to you. Do you. Do you find yourself explaining
what Creole food is to people when they show up? Like like, say, a new customer walks in, like, tell me what this is.
Joe Spencer [00:19:39] Absolutely. Yeah. So many people get recommendations from other people saying, try that restaurant. It's good. Of course, when they come in, it's like, Well, okay, the food's good. Look around on the menu. So what is what? So yeah, so we do have to explain what the food is and the taste involved and what's spicy and what's not spicy. A lot of people have the perception that all our food is spicy, which is not at all true. You know, we have a very flavorful food and we do have some spicy food, but we have food that's just it's just flavorful, not spicy. You know, our red beans are not spicy. Our Creole is not spicy. Our gumbo is we have hot versions and mild versions, you know, jambalaya. We have mild versions, hot versions and very hot versions. And then, of course, we sell we sell Southern food, too. I mean, we sell, uh, baked chicken and barbecue. Chicken and meatloaf. Homemade meatloaf and fried catfish and, you know. Macaroni and cheese, collard greens, candied yams, green beans. You know, there's just good Southern dishes that make up a really solid meal. Yeah.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:20:57] What is your favorite item on the menu?
Joe Spencer [00:21:01] It has changed over over the years. The dish that that made me fall in love with this was shrimp Creole that was like it was so different for taste. And but I love all of the food and I eat it all the time because we have such a wide variety and I have my
own way of mixing the food. I take some gumbo and mix them jambalaya with it and put some Cajun sausage in it. And then tomorrow I'll have some red beans and I'll put some shrimp in it. And, you know, and I still have some meatloaf and, you know, and so we have enough food. I eat it all the time. And the red beans. I never get tired of red beans and rice. Really good.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:21:41] Yeah. I'm with you on that. So what was it like for you… We're going to go back a little bit. To expanding the business. So you have this successful carry out downtown. Just outside. Downtown. What is it like for you to add those other locations?
Joe Spencer [00:21:57] Well, I'm always finding money to do that. You know, I mean, because it takes a considerable investment, you know, to do a restaurant because you just can't go into a building and start selling food. You know, there's a lot of infrastructure you have to put into a building, a lot of equipment you have to put into it, you know, and the access to infrastructure, specialized infrastructure, you know, for safety and health and, you know. So that is always a challenge. Find the right space and and having the funding to be able to build it out. And then of course it is the whole notion of finding that new customer base. You know, and the thing is, I had to learn this. It's really tricky. When you open up a new restaurant. You're likely to get a lot of customers, people who want to experience your food, try it out. You know. And if you do like I did, which was foolish, in the first restaurant we opened up, we opened up a restaurant on Livernois, just north of Six Mile. Back in 1988. That was five years after we'd open our first open. We've taken control of Louisiana Creole, and when we opened the doors, the business was so tremendous. Well, I got caught in two ways. Number one, it was so it was more than we expected. So as a result. We were not turning out the quality of food we should have. Trying to keep up with the mass of people and I did not realize that at the time. Uh, but. And we were making so much money, I thought we'd hit the jackpot. But you know, three months after we opened, then, you know, things began to wane, you know, and we settled into what turned out to be. What was the normal course of business, you know? But, you know, when you start off and you're making $1,000,000 in this one little restaurant, you
know what I mean? This was back in 88. It was like, wow, you know what I mean? And like, oh, man, we are on really a great path here. You know, we weren't making $1,000,000 with a projection of $1,000,000 a year. What it was was we made $1,000,000 in the first month. But but we were on a path for $1,000,000, which was far more than what we expected to do back there in 1988. And so I was seeing dollars where it were not dollars, so to speak, and I was being overwhelmed by the amount of customers. So we weren't maintaining our quality, but we adjusted that, you know what I mean? But over time. But that's one of the challenges you can have with opening a new restaurant, you know, is that understanding where you at, getting your new people in place and making sure they're doing it like you want to have done. You know, you're maintaining your quality. You're treating your customers like you want them to be treated and that, uh, you have a good path for where you're going in terms of who's going to come to you, who's going to come and patronize your business.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:25:22] And so you said you have three locations now.
Joe Spencer [00:25:25] Well, we have, of course, our original location on Gratiot and St. Aubin, just on the south end of Eastern Market. We have a second location on Detroit's west side. Uh, it's seven mile. We're seven mile just east of Schaefer, so that she has that seven mile and Hartwell. And then we have our third restaurant at Orchard Lake and 13 mile Road in Farmington Hills.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:26:08] And when did you open those two locations?
Joe Spencer [00:26:11] Well, you know, over the life of the restaurant, we've actually opened five restaurants. We opened the one at. At Livernois and six mile in 1988 we closed it in. 1998. No, no, 19, 1996, 97. We had about eight year run there. And then we opened a restaurant in downtown Detroit in the Rosa Parks Transit Center, and that was a venture that never developed like it was supposed to. So we were there about three years. That was in 2011. We closed in 2014. And then we opened our restaurant at Seven mile and Schafer the end of 2016. So it's been there since then. And we opened the restaurant at Orchard Lake at 13 mile. Last year, 2021.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:27:14] And how did it feel going from, say, uneasy times in 2020 to opening up a new restaurant in 2021?
Joe Spencer [00:27:23] Well, you know, we had already had plans of opening the restaurant at Orchard Lake Road. We already had the funding in place, and we had actually started the contractors to start but it was all shut down. You know if, if we had known the pandemic was coming we made it. Might have made different plans you know. But we were already engaged, we already had a contract for the space. So it was really just a matter of waiting till we could get the project going again, you know. And we believe we lost a lot of momentum in that, in that, you know, because we were down, we were planning on being open in 2020. Okay. We we had started in 20 in February 2020, we thought by fall of 2020, 2020, we would have been open. But we didn't even begin working on the restaurant until the winter of 2020. And, you know, we finally got it done in 2021 and then opened in late 2021. But you know, like I say, we lost a lot of momentum because we had a lot of things going. We had people, we had all kinds of things going. But we're still struggling to get the amount of people that we need to operate the restaurant unfortunately grow. We originally had planned for it to be a sit down restaurant. But because of the pandemic, we had to just settle for it being a carryout restaurant. So we still at this time and this is September 2022, struggling with the idea of getting the right amount of people
so we could do a sit down service there. So that's the kind of challenge that the pandemic had on us.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:29:09] Was is the location at Seven Mile also carry out or is it sit down. Joe Spencer [00:29:25] Well, it too had the capacity to sit down but its carry out. Billy Wall-Winkel [00:29:30] Okay. You know.
Joe Spencer [00:29:31] It had a less of a sit down capacity. We were able to seat about 12 people in there in the restaurant because we really care at a restaurant. It was designed to care about restaurant, but with seating for people who wanted to sit down, but not so much as a sit down restaurant. But at Orchard Lake, we had seating for 36 people there. So it was definitely designed for people to sit down and enjoy a meal. But we have not done that because, you know, the concern about pandemic and the concern about being able to deliver the kind of service that would require a visit now, you know.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:30:07] And I would think that being a carryout restaurant would lend itself well to being a food truck. But does your menu lend itself well to being a food truck?
Joe Spencer [00:30:18] Oh, absolutely. Because let me just explain. Our food trucks, we have what we call mobile food trucks. They are not mobile kitchens.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:30:26] Oh, you.
Joe Spencer [00:30:27] Know, they are the kind of food that we prepare the food in our restaurant. We package it in our restaurant, we put it on the stove. These trucks we have have ovens on them that maintain the temperature oven and they have cold spots so that we can keep anything cold and we travel with it, you know, like we when we were active and we're not active like we should be now, we were going to hospitals. You know, basically servicing the workers there to the factories and to offices. We had a route that they would go in. And so, you know, we would do this. People would know we were coming. They would plant their lunch for us, around us. And when we arrived, they'd come out and we'd quickly bag their stuff and give it to them, you know? So it was very good for that.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:31:13] You know.
Joe Spencer [00:31:14] And you know, we're not cooking on the truck. It's the popular food trucks now are mobile kitchens, but we're not a mobile kitchen. We are mobile food truck. You know, so a little different.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:31:26] I just imagine, like the scale of it, I was like, that sounds like a lot of space, a lot of stuff to fit in the small space. When… mean, are there plans to get that ramped back up?
Joe Spencer [00:31:39] The only thing that's holds up is people. It's a people issue all the way, you know, because you're going to have people who. I have a business just because basically operating an independent business, you know, and so they're kind of on their own. So you've got to have people who have the integrity to maintain the property. They have to have a driver's license. You'd be surprised that many people don't have driver's license. Which is an unfortunate thing here. But, you know, so they have to have the
integrity and the love, the food and, you know, be able to operate it as an independent business because. They're out there with the truck, with the product on their own. And they could make mistakes that could hurt us. So we have to be very careful about making sure we got the right people out there and we just haven't found the people. So we haven't rushed to it. You know, because you come back the new trucks, so they'll be good. We're not going anywhere, so we're okay with it.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:32:39] Is there anything about running the business or your time in time with the restaurant that you wanted to share or you want to talk about? I didn't ask you about.
Joe Spencer [00:32:55] Well, I mean, I can just tell you about my vision for the restaurant. We have a vision that because of the universal appeal of our food. Because any and everybody like the food because you know it's not it's not as we are a black owned restaurant we are not a soul food restaurant as people identify with. We serve Southern food but not so we don't put pork in food or anything. We even sell pork in our store. You know what I mean? A lot of people have they're like, no, no, you pork, you know? And so we don't do that. And because we are moderately priced product, we think we have the ability to expand throughout Michigan. And certainly throughout the Midwest, actually, our long term plans actually have it. Developing stores and businesses down the I-75 corridor, which is basically, you know, all of the major cities that are east and west of I-75, within a hundred miles, every two miles, we'd have stores in those places. And so. We are perfecting our model for that with the hopes of still doing that. I mean, the pandemic hurt us terribly in terms of that because we had, as I said before, we were planning on during 2020 of opening that Farmington store, which was going to give us the experience to working outside of the city. And that was going to be part of how we would model the rest of our business. And and then once we had the model completed, then. We're going to look for investors to help us in expansion. You know, and so with the idea of. Maybe getting a partner in Toledo to expand the creole to Toledo and on down to Cincinnati and on down all the way down to Florida is what our vision has. But we've been retarded in doing that because of the pandemic is just throwing everything off. Our people is an issue. Money is an issue, you know what I mean? Just the development is is this has been, you know, done it. By that. So but we're still optimistic that can happen. We're just waiting for things to just normalize a little bit more, you know, because people are always going to eat food, you know, and people actually there's a trend of people eating out more than before. And with the idea that people are looking for a good, solid meal that has wholesome food, I mean, we cook stuff from scratch. I mean, you don't you won't find cans of of of the stuff we use. You know what I mean? We used to cook up 99% of stuff. We cook right from scratch, you know. And so as the trend goes for healthier food, for quality, home cooked food with great taste, we think we are in a perfect position to expand that business and really serve communities all over the country.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:36:16] Especially people who don't eat hamburgers and fries on their way to Florida.
Joe Spencer [00:36:18] Yeah, well, we're thinking not just all the way to Florida. Everybody east and west.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:36:26] Now when I used to go visit my sister in law in South Carolina, it's like a 14 hour drive and I hate fast food. My wife and I would get a six pack of Bucharest and put it in the car.
Joe Spencer [00:36:40] And that's what I'm talking about. Because we. Billy Wall-Winkel [00:36:41] Couldn't. Yeah, because I couldn't do it.
Joe Spencer [00:36:44] And surprisingly, a lot of people just I don't eat fast food either, you know, I have not for years, you know. And, you know, there's a lot of people concerned about the quality of fast food and just how it feels makes the body feel, you know, so. Yeah. So that, that, that we're in the right trend for it.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:37:03] So what are your thoughts on the state of food in the city today? So you mentioned that when you started, you had like, you know, Joe Muer across the street. You had a bunch of different styles of food. What do you think of the food scene today?
Joe Spencer [00:37:14] It's very vibrant. It's a lot of new places that are opening up, particularly in the downtown and midtown area. A lot of restaurants with, with good, solid concepts and trying different things. And I think that's good. I think that's good to see because, you know, that's one of the things that that is unfortunate about Detroit. There are not a lot of restaurant, variety of restaurants in the city. You know, all the fast food restaurants. We don't need those. I mean, not a lot of people need fast food. They have to have it. But we need a lot more restaurants where you can get a good breakfast, you can get a good dinner, you get a good lunch at affordable prices. And I think there's a lot more room for that, that that level of food, you're not more places that could serve a good breakfast, you know, a lot more places that could have a decent, much good sandwich shop that are building the sandwiches from scratch, not flipping burgers, you know what I mean? Good soups for lunch, you know what I mean? And dinner, you know, everybody doesn't want to spend $50 a plate for a dinner, you know, so there's a lot of room for that market. But I still like what's going on in the marketplace. It's, it's a lot of new restaurants. So I think are doing well. There's been a few that come and gone. You know, that's how the business goes. But I think it's I think it's improved.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:38:42] Just a couple quick questions and then we're all wrapped up. When you hear the word hustle or you think of the word hustle, what comes to mind?
Joe Spencer [00:38:51] Well, it talked about an entrepreneurial spirit. I think somebody who. Is about. Let me take opportunity and make something of it independent, you know, so whether it's I'm going to start selling something, some product on the side, you know, out of the back of my car, or I'm going to start putting on shows or concerts or are going to see how I can operate in an inventive market. If I can invent something that people that but there is an entrepreneurial spirit. I thought as well, I think about someone with that spirit.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:39:30] And then when you think of the word hustler, what comes to mind? Joe Spencer [00:39:34] Someone who is active in an entrepreneurship. Billy Wall-Winkel [00:39:38] And then do you have a side hustle right now?
Joe Spencer [00:39:43] I do not have a side hustle. I am now the president of the WGPR historical society. I worked when I bought the restaurant off work for WG, PR and I continue to work for WG PR until it was sold to CBS. And then I worked for CBS as their director of programing for seven years, and I didn't I didn't stop working in the broadcast industry until 2001. 21 took a buyout from CBS, and that's when I began to be involved in my restaurants in the day to day operations. Okay. So so what happened is after I got
involved in the restaurant, so forth, and WGPR had been sold and went away. I still maintain some of the friendships that I had and we decided that the history of WGPR needed to continue because. That is in a historical place. It was the first black owned and operated television station in the entire nation. It was the first and we were part of it. We helped put it on the air and make it happen, you know. And it operated for 20 years and did some innovative things. And we thought that was a story to tell. And so we started the pursuit of. Of doing something to keep that spirit alive. And we actually we had really a really good relationship. And still I have a good relationship with the Detroit Historical Museum because one of our people who was significant in the Operation Development Restaurant, Miss Karen Hudson Samuels, was also a member of the Detroit Historic Detroit Historical Society's Black Historic.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:41:41] Yeah, Historic Sites Committee.
Joe Spencer [00:41:43] Yes, thank you. Thank you for that. Yes. And she was a member of that. And through that relationship, we began working with some of the people here at Historical Museum, and we had an exhibit we put together our first exhibit I think it was in 2016. We put our first exhibit together from that exhibit. The success of that, we convinced the owners of WGPR F.M. Radio because on radio station and TV station, convinced them to allow us to use the studios where the TV production used to be to build the museum. And we built a museum there. So I was elected president because I was the leader at the station when it was on the air. And so that's my side hustle, if you will, you know. But believe me right now, it's not that that has taken up a lot of my time. We are engaged, engaged and putting together a fundraiser coming up and this month in September. And so that's my side hustle, if you will. But it's a it's a nonprofit organization. I don't earn money from it. But it's is just a great joy to continue the legacy of WGPR.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:42:57] Thank you so much for speaking with us.
Joe Spencer [00:42:58] Well, it's my pleasure.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:43:00] It was a great thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Seajoseffer Spencer, September 1st, 2022
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview, Seajoseffer Spencer talks about his restaurant and partner of the business Doug Morrison.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Detroit Historical Society
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Detroit Historical Society
Language
A language of the resource
en-US
Black Business
Detroit
Entrepreneurship
The Hustle
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hustle: Black Entrepreneurship in Detroit
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Detroit Historical Society
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Detroit Historical Society
Language
A language of the resource
English-US
Oral History
An audio or video resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Narrator/Interviewee's Name
The current first and last name of the person speaking or being interviewed.
Alison Vaughn
Brief Biography
A short biography of the Interviewee
Alison Vaughn was born and raised on the west side of Detroit and graduated from Michigan State.
Interviewer's Name
The first and last name of the interviewer.
Lily Chen
Interview Place
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Detroit, MI
Date
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8/30/2022
Interview Length
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42:28
Transcriptionist
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Taylor Claybrook
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
Lily Chen [00:00:01] Okay. So today is Tuesday, August 30th. It is around almost 12. And this is Lily Chen. I am conducting an interview for the Hustle Project at the Detroit Historical Society. We are so excited to have one of our 36 honorees. And yeah, so let's get started. So what is your full name? And go ahead and spell it out for us.
Alison Vaughn [00:00:29] Thanks for having me. And nice to meet you, Lily. My name is Alison Vaughn. CEO and founder of Jackets for Jobs.
Lily Chen [00:00:44] Awesome. And does Jackets for Jobs have a physical location in Detroit?
Alison Vaughn [00:00:48] We actually have two locations. We have one location on the east side of Detroit, which is at 5555 Conner, Suite 2097, which is inside of the Samaritan Center. And then we also have another office on the west side of Detroit, which is at 7800 west Outer Drive inside of the Henry Ford Medical Building. So that's the nice thing. We're able to service our clients all over the city of Detroit’s east or west side.
Lily Chen [00:01:11] Oh wow, are you an east sider or west sider?
Alison Vaughn [00:01:16] I'm a west sider, born and raised. Yes. Are you familiar with the West side of Outer Drive and University of Detroit High School? Born and raised right there.
Lily Chen [00:01:26] Wow. Is that where you went to school?
Alison Vaughn [00:01:27] Actually, sadly enough, right in the area where the shooter was the other day. And if you know about that shooter that was in the news yesterday of randomly shooting. That's the neighborhood that I was born and raised in. So, yeah, so the high school in my area is Mumford High School. That's where I took driver's training. They don't even have driver's training at the high schools anymore. But that tells you kind of my age if I'm dating myself. But yeah, that's right. Yes. I'm a Detroiter. Born and raised. Graduated from Benedictine High School. Then I'm a graduate of Michigan State. So I'm a Spartan.
Lily Chen [00:01:59] Go green.
Alison Vaughn [00:02:00] Yes, go green.
Lily Chen [00:02:03] All right. So. And and do you still live in Detroit now? Alison Vaughn [00:02:09] No, I live in the suburbs.
Lily Chen [00:02:10] Okay.
Alison Vaughn [00:02:11] I live in the suburbs.
Lily Chen [00:02:12] All right. But you're a true West Sider.
Alison Vaughn [00:02:15] Oh, yeah. You were born and raised and all of my schooling in Michigan. And so my businesses, I've had jackets for jobs for 22 years. And so I've been in Detroit for 22 years. You know, Jackets for jobs started off with one office on the east side.
And then I opened up a second office downtown on Fort Street. And then from there I moved that office to seven or 800 west out of drive. So for 22 years, our mission is to provide clothing and job training to job seekers. And so that's the mission of Jackets for Jobs is to help jobseekers overcome barriers to employment. So we're a supportive service to the city of Detroit's workforce development. So for 22 years I have been why shouldn't say I, but Jackets for Jobs has been outfitting over 35,000 job seekers. So I'm very proud of that. To be able to say that we've been able to help that many people obtain employment here in the city. So that's why I say this. This award is so special because I know about hustle, you know, and I know about helping other people hustle to find employment. So, yeah, that's, that's, that's wonderful what we've been doing, putting our mark in the city.
Lily Chen [00:03:23] Yeah, absolutely. So 22 years ago, what year would it that that been Oh yeah. 2000. Okay. All right.
Alison Vaughn [00:03:35] So March 17, which was actually like St Patrick's Day. So March of 2000, I started Jackets for Jobs. And so here it is, 22 years later, 35,000 people. We've held two locations office in Botswana and branched out internationally. And it's just been wonderful bit to be able to help so many people. And because, you know, the reason why we've lasted 22 years is because people understand the mission of employment. Everyone understands the need for a job, whether you're white, black, rich, poor, Democrat, Republican, everybody understands you need to work. And everybody understands that first job interview. And everyone understands when they were going for their interview, what they wore for their first job interview. Like, you know, what am I going to wear? I need to look professional, I need a suit, I need to look right. And so our mission is so clear of providing attire to go for our work, to go for an interview.
Lily Chen [00:04:31] Yeah. So do you find that your, like, uh, journey growing up in Detroit influenced, you know, your journey today and your success today?
Alison Vaughn [00:04:43] Oh, absolutely. No matter where I go, I'm always, you know, I've got that stamp of Detroit, you know, on me. So I love Detroit. I love growing up in Detroit. I love my business in Detroit. And I'm very proud to say that this month, August 2022, Jackets for
Jobs is in Forbes magazine. I mean, you can't get any bigger than Forbes magazine. That's the leading national global business magazine. And there's a full page article about jackets for jobs. So I'm putting our imprint and making Detroiters prouder because all the subscribers to Forbes will see this about jackets for jobs. So it's really cool.
Lily Chen [00:05:22] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and we'll have a chance to kind of see that article in our exhibit at the museum.
Alison Vaughn [00:05:32] Thank you.
Lily Chen [00:05:33] So, okay, so take me back to… So did you study business in college?
Alison Vaughn [00:05:37] Yes. Okay. Exactly.
Lily Chen [00:05:38] And then did you immediately go to start a business?
Alison Vaughn [00:05:41] No. So after I graduated from Michigan State, I moved to well, I took a trip to Los Angeles to visit my roommate. So she graduated like six months before I did.
And I said, okay, well, once I graduate, I'll come and visit you. So I bought a round trip ticket to visit her in Los Angeles, and I loved it. I guess I was just kind of mesmerized by the glitz and glamor of Los Angeles. And so I never used the return portion of the trip. And I lived out in Los Angeles, and I got a job with United Airlines. And so, yeah, I was just very adventurous. I said, I'm not going back to Michigan. I just love it here in L.A.. And so six months later, I got a job with United Airlines, and then I was a flight attendant. And then I moved into management, and I started hiring flight attendants. I was an employment representative, hiring flight attendants for United. So then I moved to Chicago because that's where United Airlines headquartered. And then I still loved it. And then something told me after 15 years of being with United Airlines, something hit me and said, You know what? There's another calling. There's something else that you can do. And so I have that human resource employment background from United. And I said, You know what, people need help people. Kind of a catch 22. They need to look professional for a job interview. But in order to look professional, you have to have money to buy the clothes. So it's kind of a catch 22. And so the Lord just put it on my heart to start, you know, jackets for jobs. And I actually started it out of a tragic situation, my sister, that we had the same father, different mothers. When our father died, we kind of went our separate ways. She was with her mom, I was with my mom, and then many years went by. And then she said that she wanted to see me. And so she called her and said, you know, I haven't seen Allison in so long. What is she doing? And so my aunt reunited us and we were sitting on the porch on a nice sunny day, and I'm sitting in the rocking chair. And I said, Cheryl, well, what have you been doing all this time since we haven't been together? And she said, I'm dying of cancer. And I'm like, Oh, my God. Six months later, she died. And then when I was helping with the funeral arrangements, I found out that she was on welfare. And then that's when I said, You know what? I don't want any other woman to be on welfare. I don't want to see this happen, you know, struggling and with children and so forth. And so that's really how I started. Jackets for Jobs, as a tribute to my sister to help other women get off welfare, to empower other women to be better and to help and be the head of their household to help them out if they're single mom. And so that was really the birth of it. And that was the same time, right around the same time as 9/11. And, you know, United Airlines and American Airlines were the two airlines that were hit during that big tragedy. So all that that was happening, you know, within the year and then my sister passing. So just kind of that both of those tragedies really sparked jackets for jobs.
Lily Chen [00:08:32] Yeah. So in the beginning, it it sounds like it was like a very emotional journey for you all.
Alison Vaughn [00:08:40] Very emotional. Yes. Because, you know, here I was with a secure company, you know, stable. I knew where I was going to get a paycheck from. And then to say, you know, to hear a calling from God, say, no, I want you to go out, start your own business. And because that was not on my radar, I was enjoying being in management with, you know, the airlines. But to to leave that and to start. And that's why, once again, that's why this Hustle award is important to me, because I stepped out on faith and I had to hustle to start a business and to be an entrepreneur. And so I had no idea where I was going to get my next paycheck and see 22 years ago, the Google and the Internet wasn't the way it is. So I had to physically go to the library, check out books. I mean, people don't even do that anymore. Most people don't even know where their nearest library is. Everything is at their cell phone so they can Google everything. So I had to literally go to the airport. I mean, go to the library, research books, take out books and learn how to start a business. And so what became my friend was the dummy series for me, like dumb grant writing for Dummies, Gardening for Dummies, Cooking for Dummies. So I checked those books out, and so I checked out how to start a business, how to do grant writing. I took out
those books, and so that's how I started my business, going to the library and researching all of that. And then getting my first grant and then. We partnered with TJ, Maxx called me and they we formed a partnership to be able to provide more clothing for job seekers.
Lily Chen [00:10:10] Yeah, that's. I mean, that's amazing.
Alison Vaughn [00:10:13] Thank you.
Lily Chen [00:10:14] So, I mean, a lot of almost everybody that comes through here kind of identifies that it was not easy in the beginning. And it's really cool to hear that kind of journey because everyone is experiencing so much success today and it kind of brings inspiration for young business owners to say, Hey, no matter how hard it is, there is kind of light at the end of the tunnel. So tell us about, you know, some of those challenges that you faced in the beginning and then what it took to overcome them?
Alison Vaughn [00:10:45] Well, my challenge in the beginning was just getting started, even though I had a college degree and I knew about business. But when you're actually doing it, you know, it's one thing to see something written in books, you know, books, books, information. But when you're actually out there hustling to actually make it, you know, become a reality. So, you know, just doing the research, trying to find funding and then, you know, wanting a brick and mortar location, trying to scout that out, trying to have other people see your vision because everybody doesn't see your vision. You know, if you say you want to do this, you want to have a bakery or you want to have a child care center or whatever your dream is, everybody doesn't see your vision. So you either have to find somebody that's on board with what you're talking about or see the vision like you do. So I was telling people my mission is to clothe the poor jacket's for jobs, mission is to clothe the poor and to help them overcome obstacles so they can find employment. And so I wanted other people to embrace that. And because my mission is easy to understand, it was not hard to get other people on board. So when I received that phone call one day and a gentleman from TJ Maxx says, Hi, my name is Jerome, I'm from TJ Maxx and we're interested in partnering with you. And I'm like, wow, how did you find, you know, our organization? Because TJ Max is headquartered in Framingham, Massachusetts, which is right outside of Boston. So. So if you think Boston, Massachusetts to Detroit, Michigan, there's so many cities and so many organizations in between. How did you find us? And so they flew in. They said, we like what you're doing. We don't want to change your program. What we want to help you supply clothes so you can make sure that people get on their feet in job development. So I said, Well, how did you hear about us? You know, give me, you know, and listen at this. They said they found out about Jackets for Jobs, through Rosa Parks niece. And I said, you mean Rosa Parks? Civil rights icon Rosa Parks and her niece told them about jackets for jobs. And so I always tell people the moral of that story as you never know who's watching you. Because I did not know Rosa Parks niece, but she had heard about our organization, all the wonderful things that we were doing in the city of Detroit, how we were helping people get on their feet, how we were helping them overcome barriers to employment. And she told this gentleman about us. And so he came, saw what we were doing and Jackets for Jobs and TJ Maxx we've been partners for over 12 years. And so and I tell my daughter and anyone else, you never know who's watching you. And so this woman's wonderful, like angel of a lady was watching us and helped form that. So I'm always so whenever people talk about Rosa Parks, I'm like, yes, I have a connection to Rosa Parks.
Lily Chen [00:13:25] No, I mean, so how did the how did your business organization change over time? Like, tell us about what it what it looks like now and what the day to day operations look like now and then, what it was in the beginning?
Alison Vaughn [00:13:43] Well, the easy thing that I can say is our mission has always stayed true. Our mission has always been true to help jobseekers overcome barriers so they can find employment. When our business changed was during the pandemic. Because we are
in-person operation, people come in, they get clothes just like a department store. They come in, they get clothes. We make sure that they look nice so they can go out for a job interview. And we always say their success is our success. When they get a job, they're able to come back, get another set of clothes, what we call working wardrobe. And so they
have something. So because we were in person and when the pandemic hit, everybody had to stay away from people. They had to stay six feet away. People were not coming out of the house. So we had to learn to pivot pretty quickly to figure out how are we going to continue our business since we are in-person operation and people are afraid. So that was a really a challenging moment for us, you know, two years ago at the beginning of the pandemic. And what we decided to do, come up with a campaign is we'll meet you where you are. And we use the work where will meet you, where you are. So we'll bring the clothes to you. So almost like Amazon will drop the clothes off to you, so to speak. So if you say you have a job interview on Friday, but you can't come to us and your interview is via. Zoom because still people were not going out. They were doing interviews via Zoom. So if they didn't have any clothes, we said, well, at least we can give you a blouse or a shirt and tie something where people can see you from waist up while you're doing your Zoom meetings. So if you're afraid to come to us, we'll drop the things off to you. So that really helped us. So that was never part of our motto as delivering clothes to people. But, you know, we wanted to maintain true to our mission and still be able to help people because we knew people still needed assistance. So we tried that and that was successful. Then now people are slowly coming back in person and coming back to us. And so we're back to our original model of people coming in and getting clothes one on one, face to face.
Lily Chen [00:15:39] Yeah. So your first location was on the east side? Alison Vaughn [00:15:42] Yes. Which it still is in the Samaritan Center.
Lily Chen [00:15:45] Okay. And that's the original.
Alison Vaughn [00:15:46] That's our original place. And that's where we've been for 20 years. And then probably. 2007, seven years into the business. That's when we moved to Fort Street, still maintaining the the East Side office, but we wanted to have another office. And so that's when we moved and that's when we partnered with TJ Maxx and we moved to Fort Street and then the city when they were going through all of their bankruptcy and so forth, they closed that office. But we moved to where we are, our second office at 7800 west Outer drive inside of the Henry Ford Medical Building. And so we still have that. And then that office, we're going to be moving eventually to Northwest Activities Center, because the city of Detroit has nine different Detroit at work locations. And to maintain our presence on the west side of Detroit, we're going to go to Northwest Activities Center, because that's one of the sites for the city of Detroit's workforce.
Lily Chen [00:16:41] Okay. So in the beginning, can you describe like physically what it looked like? I mean, what? Yeah.
Alison Vaughn [00:16:47] Oh, before. So like I said, we've been in business 22 years, so year one to year two, I was inside of Little Rock Baptist Church, which is on Woodward, and it's the historic Little Rock Baptist Church. And so I think, you know, earlier when I mentioned I was with United Airlines, so I'm sitting on the flight talking to one of my flight attendant friends. And I said, you know, I'm starting this business jackets for jobs, but I don't have a physical brick and mortar location. And I need to be able to help people, you know, with clothes. So she said, Oh, my pastor is so nice, you should meet him. And you know, he's well connected and he's very community oriented and everyone in the city of Detroit knows him. And I said, okay, what's his name? She said, Reverend Jim Holley. He's the pastor at historic Little Rock Baptist Church on Woodward. And everybody, you know, knows who he is. So I went to talk with him and he says, Well, I've got some space on the second floor of the church and you can have it, you know, utilize that space for free. And I went up there and it was just like a large utility room, like a large closet or almost just like a, you know, a room, almost like the size of the room that we're in now. And so I brought some clothing racks in. And what store was it? I think it was Winkellman’s or one of the stores way back when they were going out of business. And so I bought their clothing racks and so I brought them over to Little Rock. And so I'm always grateful and forever indebted to Reverend Jim Holley at Little Rock Baptist Church because he helped us get our start with a location. And then from there, I went over to the east side inside of the Samaritan Center, which was another minister, which was a priest, Brother Francis, and he's now doing missionary work over in Africa. But so when I went over to the Samaritan Center, that priest says, Oh, yes, Holy Cross Services owns this building. And we have some space because Mercy Hospital had just closed down and then Holy Cross opened the up, bought it from them. So really two ministers. So this was all God inspired because priests helped me on both locations.
Lily Chen [00:18:47] Yeah. So in the beginning, you're the one that's going to the stores, picking out the clothes, buying clothing racks. Is that right?
Alison Vaughn [00:18:54] That's me. Yes. And then bless my mother. My mother's always been my help. My mother retired from General Motors. My stepdad, both my mother and my stepfather work for General Motors. And then before, when my father was alive, he worked for Chrysler. So we're truly like Detroiters, truly automotive, you know, in our family. So Chrysler and General Motors is all that I know as far as like my family working. So we're Detroiters working in, you know, in the auto industry. So, yeah, my mother, when she retired from General Motors, she came aboard to help me out and says and so she started doing the employment etiquette classes because if anyone knows my mother, she's just really classy and such a lady. And so with a lot of our clients, a lot of them didn't have, you know, role models or didn't have mother figures. So they look to my mother as a mother figure to help them, you know, with their job search.
Lily Chen [00:19:50] Yeah. And clients can seek those services for free.
Alison Vaughn [00:19:54] Oh, yes. Everything is for free. Yes. So we are part of we're like up under the umbrella of the city of Detroit's workforce development. And so all of our services to people are free, everything. So when they come to us, they're clothes from head to toe, whatever they need and whatever we have, we provide it to them for free.
Lily Chen [00:20:13] That's awesome. And that's always been the case. Alison Vaughn [00:20:14] Always been the case.
Lily Chen [00:20:15] Yes, that's amazing. So in the beginning, you're like super involved. You're the one picking out the clothes, you're the one seeing clients. How many people would you be seeing in those beginning years?
Alison Vaughn [00:20:25] Oh, my goodness. Oh, and we still see a lot. But due to the pandemic, you know, our things have shifted a lot, but we're seeing like a thousand a month. We were cranking them out, you know, they were coming left and right. And so that's the thing. There is a definite need for what we do because people are always going to need a job, you know, and then people are always going to need something to wear for a job interview. You know, I was going to need something to wear when they go to work. So. The need is always there and we're there because people have so many barriers to employment. Either they have childcare barriers where they don't have a babysitter, so therefore they don't go to work or they can't make it to a job interview. They have transportation barriers, they don't have a car or they don't have the money for public transportation. They have health care issues, they have clothing issues. So there's so many different barriers. And so we're a supportive service to help overcome a lot of the barriers that people have for employment.
Lily Chen [00:21:17] Yeah. And when did you get connected to the city of Detroit?
Alison Vaughn [00:21:22] In 2002. So we've been supported and a partner with the city of Detroit for 20 of our 22 years.
Lily Chen [00:21:28] Wow.
Alison Vaughn [00:21:29] Yes, 20 of our 22. So I've seen so many different mayors and they each mayor, each administration has truly supported and embraced what we do.
Lily Chen [00:21:39] I mean, they connected with your mission right away.
Alison Vaughn [00:21:43] Oh, yes. And it's really, really nice because every single mayor of the city of Detroit has embraced Jackets for jobs. Every mayor has donated clothes. And so there's some men there's some men out here that's wearing Dennis Archer's clothes. There's some man out here that's wearing Dave Bing's clothes. There's some man out there that's wearing a tie from Mike Duggan. So there's men out here wearing clothes from each of our former our current or former mayor. Yeah. So that's really cool. Yeah, I like that.
Lily Chen [00:22:13] Do you have, um, is it mostly donation based.
Alison Vaughn [00:22:16] Donation based and our partnership with TJ Maxx. So when you come our, our store, it looks like a miniature TJ Maxx. Okay, so when people come by like, oh wow, this is really nice. So yes, and that's what I love about the city of Detroit and the people in Detroit. So many people donate to our organization. They're like, I'm cleaning out my clothes, I'm doing spring cleaning, I'm doing fall cleaning. Or, you know, sadly enough, you know, they're lost or gain weight and they can't fit their clothes anymore. And especially after the pandemic, we received so many calls. People like, I've gained this weight, I can't fit my clothes anymore. So I said, I can relate. Everybody had that pandemic weight of being home, you know, so much so. Yes, we actually right now, we're experiencing a good problem. All of our racks were full and we don't even really have room to receive any more clothes at this time. So we're telling people, wait a month and call us back. So yeah, everyone, Detroiters have a heart. I love being a Detroit and I love the spirit
of Detroiters because they come through when you need them to come through and they donate to jackets for jobs. And I absolutely love that.
Lily Chen [00:23:16] Yeah. And do you have so at the beginning it was obviously just, you know, your team has probably grown.
Alison Vaughn [00:23:23] So two offices, ten employee, ten employees. We have a lot of volunteers. Before the pandemic we had oh my goodness, tons and tons of volunteers and then the pandemic hit and then we weren't able to take any volunteers. Now that we're getting out of the pandemic, people are calling and asking, can they volunteer again? And then what's really nice, a lot of our participants, a lot of our clients will come back and say, oh, you know what? You helped me out so much. Whenever I have an opportunity, I would love to volunteer and I love that because that really speaks volumes that really let you know that they were touched by what we did and they want to be able to give back because we gave to them and now they're on their feet, they're working, they're supporting their family. And so when they come back to volunteer, that just warms my heart.
Lily Chen [00:24:03] Yeah, and how, how is the process of recruiting your team and your staff?
Alison Vaughn [00:24:11] Well, let's see. Actually, the people that work for me were actually clients of jackets for jobs. And so now they're full time employees. So that's really nice. And so they know the ins and outs. They know what it's like to be on the other side of that, you know, as a client, and then now to be on the other side as an employee. So it makes it really easy. Yeah, you know, makes it really easy. And then my employee that that runs the East Side office, she's a east sider. So born and raised on the east side. So when the clients come from the east side, you know, either she's seen them before or she can really relate to them. And then my employees on the West Side, they are born and raised on the West Side because everybody is a Detroiter that that and so they are familiar with it. So it just works out so well. It's just a good, good thing.
Lily Chen [00:25:03] Jackets for Dreams is is a nonprofit.
Alison Vaughn [00:25:05] Yeah. Jackets for Jobs is a nonprofit. 501c3 nonprofit organization. It's a nonprofit organization and it's been a blessing.
Lily Chen [00:25:14] Yeah. One of the most important markers of a nonprofit is that it can employ the people that it's serving, because it means that you're actually putting people that you you don't believe in into the jobs that you have, because you never want that barrier between people who are serving and who are being served. Right. You want them to be the same, same people. So it's amazing to hear that that that that is your workforce.
Alison Vaughn [00:25:43] Yes. That is that is my workforce. And I love it because they are so dedicated, you know, because in order to work at Jackets for jobs, I want somebody that's a dedicated. And that's compassionate. And they can empathize because everyone that walks through the doors of Jackass for Jobs has a story to tell as to why they're, you know, unemployed or what kind of they have so many different barriers and obstacles. So I really want everyone that comes through to know that we're loving, we're compassionate. We understand that, you know, you have things that are you that you're going through, and we're here to help you.
Lily Chen [00:26:13] Yeah. Something I want to I do want to call out, you know, among the 36 honorees, some of some of the honorees are non-profits. And that makes me so proud to see. And so tell tell us about kind of what sets a nonprofit apart and what it means to, you know, to open an organization that is mission driven?
Alison Vaughn [00:26:40] Yes, it's totally mission driven. So I tell people when they say nonprofit, do you get paid or how did that work? You know, there's a lot of people really don't know. And so, yes, there's a salary. And we work just like as if it were for profit. The only difference in nonprofit and for profit is basically paperwork. I mean, that's basically a nonprofit is just saying that the government recognizes that you have a charitable… you have a mission to help people and you can't put the money back in to make a profit. So you can do your bottom line. You know, it's just the paperwork, really, but you're just not making a profit. Like if I were to sell for profit and I had this shirt, I can make money. I'm like, okay, this shirt is $20. I take it in and I've made $20 profit. But for nonprofit, I have a shirt, I give it to you, and I'm not making money off of it. So it's really just paperwork, but and it's just mission driven. I look at it as the difference.
Lily Chen [00:27:38] Yeah.
Alison Vaughn [00:27:38] You know.
Lily Chen [00:27:40] But it's a good thing. Yeah.
Alison Vaughn [00:27:42] I don't know if that answered the question or if that was the direction that you were going in. But it's it's just different. It's just different because it's just more mission driven and not looking for a profit. You're looking to make a difference more so.
Lily Chen [00:27:56] Absolutely.
Alison Vaughn [00:27:57] So we're looking to make a difference in a person's life for profit. They're looking to make a difference with the money. Yeah, maybe that's a good way of putting it, right?
Lily Chen [00:28:04] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, one of the biggest indications of the amazing work that you're doing is that clients can seek your services for free. Correct. So, um, you are not putting up those barriers. You're trying to eliminate those barriers, correct. For people getting employment. Have you had clients that you have that have like personally touched you or that?
Alison Vaughn [00:28:25] Oh, my goodness. All the time. All the time. We actually keep a box of Kleenex. And when we were on the Today Show, Al Roker and the whole crew came to Detroit and spent a whole day with Jackets for Jobs. And we were live on TV the entire day. And Al Roker, I like what he said. He said, Jackets for Jobs gives a Cinderella effect. And because we transform lives and we always keep a box of tissues because everybody has a story and it's so emotional. And so I just remember Al Roker saying, yeah, you have the Cinderella effect in these people's lives that you're changing is so touching. Yeah.
Lily Chen [00:29:03] And you get to, do you get to see the other side of the journey where people are experiencing success or they've you know, aced that job interview.
Alison Vaughn [00:29:13] Oh yeah. So what it is a lot of times when people come inside of jackets for jobs, they come in with their head down, their posture down, and they just come
in and like, okay, I'm here to get a suit because I have a job interview. By the time they leave, their posture is straight. They have a smile on their face, like Al Roker from the Today Show is like a Cinderella effect. Their energy, their smile, their posture, everything about them changes when they leave, because we have sort of just magically transformed the way they feel. And therefore, that's the confidence that they need. So when they leave us and they go for that job interview, they have so much more self-confidence. And that's what you need. You know, you just need that self-confidence. You just need somebody kind of as your cheerleader, like, you can do this, you can get that job because many of them do not have a cheerleader or a coach or somebody saying, you can do it. You have on that suit, you look good. And especially the men. My gosh, when a man puts on a suit, especially if he's never worn a suit, because we work with a lot of veterans and they are used to having on a, you know, their uniform, so to speak, or just not a suit and tie. They are transformed and they can I wear the suit out? I want to wear it. You know, I don't need to bag up my clothes that I had on. I just want to wear the suit when I leave out of here. And so, oh, sure, you can wear your suit out, but they just feel so different. And so to see, yes, we feel touched and we have Kleenex and we cry because we know that we're making a difference. And they hug us and they say thank you. And then, like I said, after their job interview, if they get the job, they're eligible to come back and receive more free clothing, what we call a working wardrobe, to help them along the way.
Lily Chen [00:30:56] That's awesome. So you get to see I mean, you get to see so many people experience success in that way. So there's a part of you that obviously loves fashion.
Alison Vaughn [00:31:04] Oh, yes. Yes.
Lily Chen [00:31:06] Because you are using fashion to change people's lives.
Alison Vaughn [00:31:10] I'm using fashion. And a year ago, a friend of mine encouraged me to apply to be a contestant in Ms. Fashion Global and in the pageant was held in Florida. And I was like, Oh, I don't know if I want to do it because I'm not comfortable wearing a swimsuit. And I know all pageants. They want you to wear a swimsuit and then an evening gown. And so I said, you know what? I'm going to go for it while I did it and I won. And so I'm Ms.. Fashion Global from Michigan. And so that's what that is right there, that flier that you have that I gave you. So, yes, I am Ms. fashion Global Michigan, because fashion is very important to me, which is really weird because growing up I went to a Catholic school, so I wore uniform. Then when I went up to Michigan State, I just wore blue jeans and a sweatshirt. Then when I worked for United Airlines, I wore a uniform. So I was and I think that's why I like fashion now, because most of my life I had to wear uniforms. I wear uniforms for so many years that now I'm like, okay, I can come out and wear all these wonderful pieces of clothes and get into fashion and ball gowns and high heels and so forth. So yeah, so I enjoy clothes and makeup and, you know, just getting all dressed up and down up. And so I think that's what makes my job fun is to sing, you know, to help people put on a nice suit or a nice pair of slacks and a blouse, or seeing a man with a shirt and tie and just putting everything all together. And then the staff jackets for jobs. Our staff are wonderful. Image consultants because that's basically what they are an image consultant to helping your image look good for that job interview.
Lily Chen [00:32:44] Yeah. So they kind of help to curate the whole look.
Alison Vaughn [00:32:49] Oh, yes, exactly. From head to toe. So when a lady or man comes in, everything from head to toe, from outercoat to the suit, shoes, briefcase, if we have
briefcases on how we give them that. But if they take the bus, they need an umbrella. We have that available. So anything that helps them look professional, anything they need from their journey, getting to the office.
Lily Chen [00:33:13] Amazing. Um, so. Okay, so you have two offices now. Would you say there is any differences or any special like. Tell me the thing that you love about each.
Alison Vaughn [00:33:24] Well, I love and I would hate for the my east side office to hear this but I partial to. Well, they're both different. Okay. I'm partial to the west side. And let me tell you why I'm partial to the west side is because, T.J., Maxx did the whole build out. So it actually looks like a miniature T.J. Maxx. The dressing rooms looks like a T.J. Maxx. The red bench that's in the dressing room is from T.J. Max. The racks, the posters, the fixtures, everything looks like a T.J. Maxx at the West Side office. I mean, when we did the ribbon cutting, T.J., Maxx, district managers and everything were there because they actually physically did the construction work. Now, my East Side office, I'm partial to because that was my first and the original and that's our main office and that's where the mail goes and so forth. So I'm always partial to that one because that's home and that's my main office and that's where my actual office is. I don't have an actual office on the West Side, whereas I do on the East Side, so I'm always partial to that. So for those reasons, I love the East Side because my actual office is there. That was the first and then the west side because of the TJ Maxx look.
Lily Chen [00:34:33] Yeah.
Alison Vaughn [00:34:34] So it's almost like that question's almost like you have two children. Which child do you like the best? I mean, that's kind of how I'm feeling, like, okay, what do I like the best? I love both of them. But this one has that talent and this one has that talent.
Lily Chen [00:34:50] What do you envision for the future?
Alison Vaughn [00:34:53] Oh, that's a really good question. Everything I do, I'm guided by God. I have a such a spiritual background and I'm not afraid to say it. Everything I do is guided in that direction. So however the Lord leads me, I know my mission is to help the poor. I know my mission is to be rooted and grounded in the city of Detroit and to help my fellow Detroiters become employed and to do the best that I can. So that's why I was so happy to have the spotlight on Jackets for Jobs in the city of Detroit and Forbes magazine, a national magazine. And I'm also going to be in an entrepreneur magazine. So to be featured in national global magazines put the spotlight on Jackets for jobs in the city of Detroit, I think is really huge because he's saying such a positive thing about an organization doing positive things in their city and for, you know, nationally to be recognized nationally. Yeah. So I guess to answer the question, I'll just continue being led by the Lord to be led to empower men and women so they can continue to find employment.
Lily Chen [00:35:55] Yeah. So we're joined by your daughter today. Alison Vaughn [00:35:58] Yes.
Lily Chen [00:36:00] All right. And has your …have your children been part of your journey?
Alison Vaughn [00:36:07] Oh, yes. My daughter is my mini me. I love her so much. And so I want to be a good role model for her. So Sunday we just got back from London and I was in London for the 100th successful businesswoman and it was a conference and I was happy that she was able to attend the gala with me to see me receive an award on stage in London. So she didn't like the plane ride. She thought it was too long. It was an eight hour flight. But for her to travel to London to see me receive an award as one of the 100 successful women. I thought that was that was so heartwarming for me, for her to see me as her role model.
Lily Chen [00:36:47] Yeah, absolutely, well, is there anything that comes to mind that you want to share in terms of your journey, that whether that's like guiding advice for future business people, whether that's, you know. How like reflections on your journey. Looking back. Anything that you'd want to share.
Alison Vaughn [00:37:13] You know, if you want to be an entrepreneur, if you want to step out and hustle, you know, because a lot of people ask that question like they have a 9 to 5 job, but they have this idea of opening up a daycare, opening up a bakery, opening up a cleaners, whatever, just being that entrepreneur. But they have this other job, but they're afraid to leave that to start something else because of the unknown, you know. And that's where I was. And I said, you know, if you really you know, if you hear your inner voice or whatever that higher power or that inner voice is to you, everybody has their own. But for me, when I heard that inner voice say, you know, go ahead, leave, you know, you name it, and I want you to start this. I stepped out on faith not knowing where my next paycheck is going to come from. And like 22 years later, I'm loving what I do and God has sustained me. So my advice, if you have that burning desire to do something, step out on faith and do it. Yeah. You know, don't be afraid to take chances. Don't be afraid to be adventurous and do it because I did it and it has worked. And I don't look back whenever I see a plane in the sky, I don't say, oh, my God, I wish I wouldn't have, you know, done what I'm doing now. And I stay on the friendly skies. But it's all worked out and God has guided my footsteps every step of the way. And I'm just so happy about that. And I know that God will continue to guide my path. So my advice is, especially for Detroiters, we are hustlers, we we work hard. And I love that about Detroit. And I'm proud to be a Detroiter and I'm proud to be a part of the Detroit Historical Museum, to be able to say that I've helped out the Detroiters and I am a Detroiter, born and raised here. So it's a good feeling.
Lily Chen [00:38:47] Yeah, okay. So what does Hustle and Hustler, what do those two words mean to you?
Alison Vaughn [00:38:56] Well, for me, hustle means just working hard. Yeah, and that's what I've done. Because when you are an entrepreneur, you actually work harder than if you work a 9 to 5. Because if you work a 9 to 5, you go in at nine, you get off at five, you're done. If you're an entrepreneur, you are working 24 seven. There is no you know, when you're in the bed, you're thinking, okay, did I do this? I've got payroll to meet. I have this report to do. I have that to do. So as a hustler, it's not 9 to 5, it's 24 seven. And you're always out there grinding and making sure that things go right because the pressure is all on you. You can't say, okay, well, I've got a coworker, I've got ten other people in this department that can, you know, fill in if I don't do what I'm supposed to do or if I, you know, fall short or something, there's other people to catch my back. But as an entrepreneur, you're you're it, you know, you might have, you know, staff or other people, but you are really it. Yeah. So if something happens to me, I'm it, you know what I mean? So as a hustler, it just means really working hard. And you're working 24 seven not 9 to 5.
Lily Chen [00:39:55] Yeah. Okay. And like Hustle and Hustler are intertwined.
Alison Vaughn [00:40:01] Yes. For me, I think they're kind of intertwined.
Lily Chen [00:40:03] Yeah, absolutely. All right. Well, um, it was really lovely to speak with you, and we're. We're just proud of the work that you're doing, it's important, you know, and it's important that, um, people, I think, don't realize, like, it's so easy to say go out and get a job. And I think people don't realize all the minutia and all the different things that have to go into that come into play in order to get that job right. And, and so for you to take on this mission and to be part of that someone's journey, you know, to that next stage of their life is is incredible to see.
Alison Vaughn [00:40:45] It is. And when people come in to our East Side office, we had what we call a wall of fame. We still do a wall of fame. And we've have different celebrities and prominent people have donated their suits. And like, this was my first suit. And and so it's
really, really nice. And I would love for the museum here to do something like that, you know, Jackets for Jobs presents, you know, prominent Detroiters first attire. And so like and we've even had celebrities like Queen Latifah, Mariah Carey and then prominent Detroiters like Sean Robinson. That's a producer now that's in Los Angeles. But anyway, they've donated suits. And so, in other words, when clients come in and they it's like, oh, my God, there's congresswoman such and such suit or there's, you know, Queen Latifah. So and that gives them inspiration. Like, you know what? This was their first suit and look where they are now. And now we're going to give you a suit. So hopefully one day you will have your suit on the wall. And so it's really nice because everybody remembers that first job or that important job or that important interview, what what suit they wore, you know. And so it's really it's really nice and it's inspirational. And so if you guys ever have any room, extra room here in the museum, I would love to have an exhibit showing people's first, you know, their suit that was important to them. Like this is a suit I wore when I closed the deal to get the waterfront here in Detroit. This is a suit that such and such that's in prominent here I wore when we did, you know. Entertain such and such. So it gives people inspiration, like, wow, look how they look when they did that, close that deal. Look how they look when they got that, you know. Yeah. So I think that would be really cool.
Lily Chen [00:42:24] Yeah, absolutely. All right. I'm going to stop the recording.
Alison Vaughn [00:42:27] Okay.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Alison Vaughn, August 30th, 2022
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview, Alison Vaughn talks about her business in Detroit, Jackets for Jobs.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Detroit Historical Society
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Detroit Historical Society
Language
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en-US
Black Business
Detroit
Entrepreneurship
The Hustle
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hustle: Black Entrepreneurship in Detroit
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Detroit Historical Society
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Detroit Historical Society
Language
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English-US
Oral History
An audio or video resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Narrator/Interviewee's Name
The current first and last name of the person speaking or being interviewed.
Adrienne Bennett
Brief Biography
A short biography of the Interviewee
Adrienne Bennett founded her business in 2007 with both of her sons.
Interviewer's Name
The first and last name of the interviewer.
Billy Wall-Winkel
Interview Place
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Detroit, MI
Date
The date of the interview in MM/DD/YYYY format.
9/07/2022
Interview Length
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49:57
Transcriptionist
The first and last name of the transcriptionist.
Taylor Claybrook
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:00:00] Hello. My name is Billy Wall Winkel. This interview is for the Detroit Historical Society's Hustle Project. We are in Detroit, Michigan. This interview is on Wednesday, September 7th, 2022. And I'm sitting down with Adrienne Bennett. Thank you so much. Can you please start by spelling your name for me?
Adrienne Bennett [00:00:18] Okay. Adrienne is A-D-R-I-E-N-N-E, Bennett is B-E-N-N-E T-T.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:00:25] Thank you. Thank you. Start with, how did you first hear about the Hustle project?
Adrienne Bennett [00:00:32] I received an email that I had been nominated and really was blown away. And in the email it was stating what they wanted to do and what they were looking for. And they needed me to answer some additional questions. And so I proceeded. It told me that if I was selected or the business was selected, that we would be in a group. There would be an exhibit here at the Detroit Historical Museum and that they were going to select, I think, five to be in the permanent exhibit. And so I submitted my answers. I received a phone call on Friday and I must have said huh, five times because I said they said, Adrienne Bennett, I said yes this is Adrienne Bennett, how can I help you? well she said, I can't remember the lady's name that called me. She this is the Detroit Historical museum. We wanted you to be aware that your name was selected as being nominated. And you are an honoree. And we want to ask you, are you interested in being part of the exhibit? I'm like huh? Who, me? And I'm like, what? You know? And so she said I said, Can you repeat that again? Because I just couldn't believe it. So that's how it happened.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:01:58] Do you remember what it was like? Like telling people, like, how quickly did you share the news?
Adrienne Bennett [00:02:03] Well, that's just it. I was told not to. Oh, because we had to wait until they made the announcement, which was the event they had here. So I ended up sharing it with my partner, who also happens to be my youngest son. And he's like I'm the one who nominated you. I'm like, Oh, wow. Because I had no clue who nominated me for this museum. So and so I said I let him know that I had been so lucky. And at the time I was in the office. I have put the phone on speaker. So my office manager, she was working on something else. She usually answers the phone. And she happened to overhear the conversation. So she knew. So when we hung up, I sat there on the edge of the desk and I was like, I'm just in shock. You know, I said, Does this make me artifact? Does this mean. What does this mean to me in a museum? And I just gets sat in a daze. And so she heard the fact we couldn't tell anybody else. We get to keep to ourselves, too, after they make the announcement. So I was pretty good about that. But once I did tell people, there was one person I had to tell because the night of the event it was overlapping with a safety meeting for our company and it was going to be held in Troy and they were taking headcounts. And I'm like, I can't make it. And she says, Well, this is you know, we've got the man coming from Nationals who's going to be talking about all this safety information is so important, important that you be there, you know, pertinent as is. What can I share something with you guys? Swear to keep the secrecy. So she swore to secrecy when she was screaming on the phone. She goes, she's. She was over hyperventilating. I'm like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So she's like, the first person I told, but everybody I tell, since then, I got the same response.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:03:58] That's lovely.
Adrienne Bennett [00:03:58] Well, it is because no one ever thinks about being in a museum until after you're dead. Where have you done something major? You know, the Hall of Fame. You know, a museum. It's usually artifacts is something that you did, you know, and a museum is named after you. But the those people are, you know, already gone. So for me to smell my roses while I'm alive. That's what I know what this statement means now to be able to smell your roses while you're alive. Smell my flowers. Because that night I was just in awe, of the people and the turn out in and for this museum, to think of something of this magnitude, because as they told the story, this has never been done anywhere else in the country that day, like on the you know, on the cutting edge of doing this. And we were the first recipients of this so that made it even more special.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:04:56] That's great to hear.
Adrienne Bennett [00:04:57] Yeah.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:04:58] So let's talk a bit about why you were nominated. So what is the name of your business?
Adrienne Bennett [00:05:06] It's Benkari, LLC Plumbing, Water Quality and Conservation. And what that entails is they we're a plumbing company. But we also can test the water to make sure the water is safe, to cleanse for consumption, human consumption. And we have a laboratory that we're partnered with that will take the samples. This is sort of a special certification that our company had to go through through ASSE.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:05:40] Who's the ASSE.
Adrienne Bennett [00:05:41] That's the American Society sorry, the ASSE is the American Society of Sanitation Engineers. And so. There was a course that we had to take in Ann Arbor, and we sent our project manager and one of our journeymen plumbers. And it was. I think a total of 32 hours. And a test was given after each session. And then once you passed that, you went on to the next level. And so we were successful in getting the certification, and we got the affiliation with the laboratory. And so during the pandemic, there were a lot of buildings that shut down, and they were finding Legionella in the drinking water, which is hazardous to our health. So that prompted this to be really blown and to grow. So any building that had been sitting stagnant, you needed to check the water. And they really wanted it to do it for any places where they had seniors, any hospitals, anything pertaining to health care. It was mandated that they had their water tested because the people that had low immune systems, the last thing you need to do is drink some water that will attack your system. So that's how the water quality came in. And water conservation, that is basically conserving water by installing devices within your home or within your business that will reduce the consumption of water by reducing the gallons per minute by, you know, one time they had the 4 to 5 gallons for flush toilets. Now it's 1.2 and 1.3 gallons per flush it's very little water in a bowl, but it's enough to flush away the waste. There's restrictions on showerheads to lower the flow coming out of the showerhead faucets. So this is different devices that's been made that will help to consume the water and to conserve it in a much more fashionable way.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:08:03] And how do you spell the name of your business?
Adrienne Bennett [00:08:05] It's B as in brilliant E N K A R I and it's two family names put together, Bennett and Bukhari.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:08:16] Very nice. What year did you found the business.
Adrienne Bennett [00:08:20] We opened our doors in 2007. And start out with my oldest son, who is Evan Hashim Malik Bukhari, and then and the youngest son at that time was still in college. So once the youngest son graduated, then he primarily stepped in and he
and I are the ones that are pretty much running it. But the oldest son who's in Rhode Island, he's an engineer. Both my sons are engineers and he is working for the state of Rhode Island and the road commission, doing the bridges, the streets where they just had five inches of rain, I think, in like 2 minutes. Severe flooding in Rhode Island currently. So which all of the road work is halted right now because everything is under water. And this is something that happens consistently there. Roads being under water. So he decided to go somewhere where he can be consistently employed. My youngest son, AK Bennett. His name is Adrian Keith, but we call him AK. He's a graduate from Lawrence Tech with his Masters and he is our project manager is also he's also I see all of the company. So he oversees all the field work. And I used to be in the field because I am actually the master plumber and the plumbing contractor holds the license for the company. I've been in this industry for 40 years and I went through the five year apprenticeship. I was myself in an engineering program at Lawrence Tech and was convinced to leave that program and come into the plumbing apprenticeship program. I kind of swapped one for another, and this was back in the seventies.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:10:16] And what convinced you.
Adrienne Bennett [00:10:19] There was a gentleman that was at a Jimmy Carter get out to vote rally. His name is Gus Vowles. He's passed on now. And he said he saw me from across the room and looked like a woman to get something done. He approached me and
asked me if I want to make $50,000 a year. That was his opening line to me. And I said, this is in a seventies, $50,000. Is it legal? And he said, Yes, I said, doing what? He said being a plumber. At the time, there was this commercial on TV with Josephine the Plumber. You're too young to remember her, but she would have her overalls on, overalls on, and had this pipe wrench. And he says, Not quite. And it was a five year apprenticeship, and it was grueling and it was challenging. Um. But I've learned to say that the harder they were on me, the better I became and the stronger I became. And I told Mr. it must be something awfully damn good in you all and want me to find out about. I'll stick around just to piss you off. And here I am, 40 some years later still pissing them off.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:11:28] Good.
Adrienne Bennett [00:11:29] So that's how, that's how I got started in and that's how Benkari came about. My sons are the ones that selected the name, and we took it from there.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:11:42] So was it, you said they selected the name, was it also like kind of their push to open your own shop.
Adrienne Bennett [00:11:50] Pretty much because I, I was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis and had a very severely bad relapse and was incapable of doing anything. I mean, literally, I was bedbound for five years and I went blind. I was wearing diapers. I needed physical therapy. It was very severe. But I overcame that as I did the
apprenticeship. And with that, my son going to engineering is amazing. They grew up with me being in the field and I do have a daughter. I can't miss my daughter, she's the middle child. That middle child they always felt they left out. But she's a, she's in finance. But they all grew up seeing me in the industry. And so they pretty much had the roots of it. And the youngest one, I drove him around with me to different job sites as I did the younger ones. The older ones. So they pretty much didn't have too much of a choice. My boys, as far as
which way they want to go, they knew they would be plumbers. So that's why they went the engineering route. We, collaborated with it, thought about it, and decided to do it. And here we are growing on a new construction site, as well as the service division side with water quality. So we're becoming very well well-rounded in the services that we're offering the community.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:13:33] How did it feel going from the field to owning your own business?
Adrienne Bennett [00:13:38] Well, I ended up leaving the field right after my apprenticeship. I was recruited by Detroit to be a plumbing inspector.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:13:46] Hmm.
Adrienne Bennett [00:13:47] Somehow they heard about me and Coleman Young was the mayor and being a female, I was a city resident and being African-American. And plus, my body was so beat up. It was this was before PVC. So all the piping was steel, copper, cast iron, concrete, ductile, heavy. And every job I was on was either industrial or it was medical. I ended up doing a lot of hospitals. They found that I was good with brazing and silver soddering, and it was just a touch I had. And the very last hospital I worked on as an apprentice, the foreman who's passed on now, Arthur Ruballard, god bless his soul, he gave me a chance. I did the water distribution as well as the Metro gas systems. I had three leaks in the whole hospital and that was just phenomenal. And this is all copper. And so from that, I had a touch that they felt I could do and it wouldn't be a lot of callbacks. You know, when she did it, the joints were solid and it was good. So that's pretty much when I left that I went into being a plumbing inspector. And I had to master the code book, which is my second Bible, because that's what the inspectors have to go on. We go back to the code and which is also part of the test you have to take to get your license. So I was out of the field back in the eighties. Now, I was still as a as an inspector. I was still working in the field, but I wasn't doing the physical work. It was basically walking the sites, checking the joints, making sure everything was done to the code. And if there was violations that need to be written, I wrote the violations. Ended up being a code enforcement officer, you know, taking a lot of people to court because they were not abiding by the code. So and then from there, Henry Ford Hospital was one of my clients as maybe an inspector. So I was told, instead of writing all these violations why don't you just come and fix them. So I went from being a plumbing inspector to being the master plumber in the construction manager at Henry Ford Hospital. And I was there until they decided to build a West the West annex, which is that addition off of West Grand Boulevard. You're going to find labor and delivery. You're going to find the NICU, you're going to find the cancer treatment. You're going to find dialysis, it was four stories. That was my baby for three years. And I was selected for that because I had a strong background in construction and I had my master's license. I had the history of being an inspector. So I knew codes. I knew how to get into a cold book and dissect it. And plus they offered me the right amount of money.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:17:06] That's always helpful.
Adrienne Bennett [00:17:06] That's always helpful. And I loved it, but I was in labor for three years with that building. And became very possessive with it. So I gradually that was my the ladder that I was climbing. And then, unfortunately, I got diagnosed with multiple sclerosis while I was there at Henry Ford. And I had to take medical leave.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:17:32] So you you had hinted on it earlier, but what was it like for you after you recovered from that relapse to get back on your feet and to get back out there doing doing the work you love?
Adrienne Bennett [00:17:43] I always see the phone call from our business manager. His name is Carlo Castellini with Plumbers Union Local 98. His uncle originally initiated me back in the seventies. And he called me and said he needed me. I said for what? He says, You're the only woman. The only one in Michigan, licensed master plumber in Michigan. I said, still? You know, all this time has passed. I think I got my Masters in 84. And now let's fast forward this, you know, to 2004, 2005, you know, and I'm like, wow. So it was a shock to me and. The first thing I thought of. I consider myself a spiritual person. I said, Well, you know how they treated me before. I can't go back to that again. And Carlos said it won't be that way anymore. And I said, okay. And decided to go back out. And we found a location to rent. And the challenges that we can was confronted with was getting insurance. One being in Detroit. Two being African-American, being a woman and just opening a brand new business, no insurance company would touch us. Even though I had all this experience, you know, I had my license. I was in good standing in the state of Michigan. My reputation was solid. They wouldn't touch me. And I ended up finding out about the SBA. And they were the ones that connected me with our first insurance company. And then we also had to get bonding, which is another challenge, and that was the SBA as well. So the SBA was very fundamental with helping us get our doors opened because you can't have a business without worker's compensation, you know, because we get people in the field working. So I had to have insurance, so I couldn't do anything until that was conquered. And so once we were able to get that, then we were able to start moving forward, establishing accounts, you know, where our suppliers go. We can't put pipe in without pipe. You can't put fittings in. You can't you know, you need you need tools and all of this. And we had to start buying, you know, vehicles. So that was just ramping up with the business. So I immediately switched because being at Henry Ford, I had learned a lot about the business side because that West Annex was basically my baby having to know the budget, you know, making sure the suppliers got paid during the waivers. It was just a process. Blueprints was nothing for me. That was a second hand. My laptop was my my third arm. So it was just. But unfortunately, during my five years, I had seizures. And a lot of there was a lot of brain damage. And I taught myself how to come back. So those was challenges on top of the fact of getting into a male dominated industry that I still have to deal with. But I'm not a quitter. I continue to move forward. And so the challenge was there. I've always been interested in a challenge. And Benkari being the only woman owned. And that was so shocking to me. I attended I was speaking at a conference in Seattle in 2015. And a lady approached me and it was Corey. And she was telling me I was the only one, I was the only one, I knew I was on the one in Michigan. This was the Women Builds Nations conference. It was over 2000 women there. The West Coast is so much more progressive than we are here. And I saw all these women, every every trade you can think of was there. And I was I cried maybe three or four times the time I was there. And she informed me because she was her family was a third generation plumbing company and she wanted to make it into a woman owned business. And she found as she was doing her research, there was only one woman. There was a license contractor through the the MCAA, which the Mechanical Contractors Association of America. And then I was, so MCAA, and I'm also still a member of the UA, which is a association
because I maintain my my license. I paid my dues and she only found one woman. And in North America. And so, I had no clue that I had no clue. And I'm standing there again in shock. Coming. All these women here, I met women, plumbers. They're meeting other women masters. I met a woman inspector. I mean, I'm meeting all these women that are in the plumbing industry and it didn't really dawn on me until she started talking to me and telling me this. And so this is documented. And so being the first black female licensed master plumber in North America. So MCAA and the UA has got it documented. So my children tell me I'm very humble and I feel I want to stay that way because I just I just got off and went to work every day. But that's what I did. I didn't do anything special. I showed up every day on time. I was the first one in a day and I was there early and I made them depend on me because they didn't want me there. I heard this, you know, for years, and I had to make myself valuable. And I chose to go this route instead of going to the engineer. Engineer was, engineer was still the same way. It was all white males in both. So I just chose the plumbing perspective over the engineer perspective. I should say discipline. But as I continue to grow I became stronger. I had to on a daily basis, I had to combat the damage that had been done with the seizures. I still had my challenges today. But the therapist told me everything you think you may have lost, you will regain back. And she says, Thank God I had a lot of education, you know, because I was in an engineering program. Math was, you know, a very strong suit of mine, chemistry biology. Those were classes I excelled in. And I was really nerdy. I mean, I remember telling my mother I could not have been more than maybe 12. Mama, you gotta quit buying Aerosol spray, you will destroy the ozone layer, she said. What the hell is an ozone layer? This is what I like 12 years old, and that's just kind of who I was. I sat at the dining room table with the with all the space shuttles gluing them together. It's probably glue I was sniffing that's probably got me messed up in the head, but that's how I was.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:25:49] Eight follow ups. SBA is a small business association. Adrienne Bennett [00:25:53] Yes.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:25:54] And then what does it mean to get bonded?
Adrienne Bennett [00:25:56] To get bonded, that's when you let's say you take on a job, a project, and if you don't perform there's a liability there. They want you to be bonded to cover the fact if you can't finish it they've got this insurance policy that was saying that we're going to cover the fact if you cannot complete this project. So basically this insurance as it's an insurance policy for your construction projects, that's about the most elementary way I can explain it for you.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:26:32] Perfectly fine. Okay. Thank you.
Adrienne Bennett [00:26:34] No problem.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:26:35] You said when you got the call from the local, he said he needed you back there, just as he needs you in the field.
Adrienne Bennett [00:26:40] He said he, he says I was the only female plumbing contractor licensed master plumber and woman. Woman. And he said, You're the only one. I need you.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:26:50] So he wanted you back. So, so, like the union could say.
Adrienne Bennett [00:26:56] To be a contractor and to put me back to work. Billy Wall-Winkel [00:26:59] Gotcha. And then.
Adrienne Bennett [00:27:01] And he's still around. He still holds that position. All right, Carl, I'm calling you out.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:27:09] Well, so you mentioned you, aside from the financing issues, getting insurance and things like that all set up. Was it important to you to open the business in Detroit?
Adrienne Bennett [00:27:18] Absolutely.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:27:19] Why?
Adrienne Bennett [00:27:20] Well, that's my roots. You know, the apprenticeship school was right off of 75 and it's the building has I think the building still stands but they've moved out to Troy, the training center now is in Troy and Union Hall is in Madison Heights lives a combined building around the corner. They had the union hall was upstairs, the training center on the first floor. So it's combined and yeah, that's where it all started and I went to Mumford High School and did some studying of my advanced classic Cass Tech. There was class they didn't offer at Mumford, so I took it at Cass. Um. And I live in Detroit. I was a triple threat and woman, minority, and Detroit resident and Coleman Young. Initially, my very first job was way out in Utica Township. I mean, way for me, it was like a two hour drive one way and Coleman Young decided to put in place exactly 122. And that's where this work was all being done, city and revitalization. And he wanted to make sure the city residents were employed. So he had to bring me from way out there because I was the only woman and brought me back into the city. And a lot of times it wasn't just me being the only woman. When I was way out there, I was the only black. And so it was challenging. It was challenging. But when I came back into the city, I was, there were still more blacks, but I was still potentially the only woman. I remember seeing a woman mason early in my apprenticeship. Can't remember too many other women that was in the trades back in the eighties and nineties. And now you've got a lot of female engineers, project managers, they're on the office side and they're getting more women. Electricians have got all these beautiful women as far as electricians. The plumbers, I think we still around maybe 25. But it's, we're still trying to recruit and I hope to set that example, that it's a very lucrative industry, you have no college debt and it's job security. You know, I have been in this for 40 years. I've never been unemployed. When I went from actually doing the physical work, then I learned the book part of it, and then I mastered the administrative part of it. So as I continued to grow, I just made sure I knew every aspect of it. So even now I just took a whole class, it's required when you get your license that you have to take a class. It's no different than doctors when they renew their license there are certain courses you have to take. And I'm happy we have that because now there's PVC, there's pipe out there that I had never touched. And I've got to learn how do you connect it? How do you hang it? You know, how do you support it? And so that's why it's necessary for me to still stay in school, which is what I do. And I'm also a member of the ASPE, which is a American Society of Plumbing Engineers. And that's a great organization, that's keeping me in touch and in tune, because when we have our classes, they bring in the manufacturers and suppliers and they have a show and tell of what's new, the products that are out there. So I can stay abreast of what's going on here. And all of my team members are required to stay in class as well because they have to keep their license up as well. So I hope I answered your question.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:31:11] You did. And a couple more I had on deck that worked out okay. Where in the city is your shop located?
Adrienne Bennett [00:31:18] We're located on West McNichols. Three blocks west of the South Hill Freeway on the south side of Street. But we're in a process of we are outgrowing that location, so we need to move to a larger location.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:31:35] Are you scouting them out?
Adrienne Bennett [00:31:37] You know, we've been looking and looking and looking and we're hoping it will be blessed.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:31:50] So do you, your focus on your shopping in Detroit. Do you also focus on hiring Detroiters?
Adrienne Bennett [00:31:56] Absolutely. Well, with the apprenticeship by us being in the union we have an apprenticeship program is similar to the one I went through and they are recruiting all people. And so that would be the nucleus I can go to and the surplus. So if we need a journeyman, if we need an apprentice, if we need a different level of apprentice, if we need a metal tradesperson, we go back to the union hall, see who's on the list, and let them know that we would like to get these people to fill slots that we may have vacancies in. So we are committed to and the STEP program is part of what Benkari is doing. Because with Michigan, such a train station. And which is what Ford Motor Company purchased. And that's going to be the Autonomy headquarters. And that was a commitment they also made. And Chrisman, who was the general contractor for that project, has also made their way forward. So it's all we're all it's a win win for everyone.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:33:06] So how has the business grown since you opened it in 2007?
Adrienne Bennett [00:33:10] When you say How has it grown, in what manner do you mean standpoint?
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:33:15] So you mentioned that you started with you and your eldest son and now he's in Rhode Island and you're working with younger son. How many employees have you grown from?
Adrienne Bennett [00:33:22] We have we've had as many as 25. And that includes our office staff and if you were to subtract three out of that everybody, it would be field personnel. We've got our controller, office manager and myself. Everybody else works in the field. So and again, we get our surplus from the union and we are in a process of growing. So we are trying to get and identify who wants to stick and stay with us. And I'm proud to say that everyone is on our current team tells me that this is the best place I've ever worked. That if they need something, they get it right away with. We're supportive, safety is number one. They're happy with the people they're working with. They're happy with the projects they're working on. And I say God is picking out the weeds. So those people who unfortunately are not, are not with us today they were eliminated for different reasons. And the ones that are there are the ones that want to stay, the they are sticking this thing.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:34:43] And how has it been setting up shops a few years before we get this building renaissance going on in the city?
Adrienne Bennett [00:34:50] Well, you know, when we did it, that was right before the collapse in '08. You know, everything the bottom kind of fell out of everything. And our very first contract was the people mover. And the cast iron pipe had matured out, and it was you know, it had it was mature. And there was some situations where they needed a little TLC. And so Benkari, that was our first major project was The People Mover. And at every station, there is plumbing. And throughout the tracks there's plumbing because when the ice melts, the water has to drain off. So and it's conveyed, you know. So that was the one thing they help us to to survive 08. And then from that, we've just continued to grow. Um, we, we're blessed some big projects. Like I mentioned, we'd be Little Caesars Arena. I just mentioned, the Ford, the Michigan Central Station. We worked on a theater 11 courthouse, Wayne State. We did the Anthony Wayne Apartments. Sugar Hill, which is a new ground up right across the V.A. hospital. And it's going to house veterans low income. We were the prime the prime plumbing contract on that project. Um. We are doing service and we are blessed to have and we still have the, um. The the people mover. We have Target, numerous stores and Target. We have Amcor, which does like banks and post offices. So as we're growing, as we're growing, we are having invitations of people calling us because of our reputation. We've got the most dynamic team out there. And we enjoy what,we're doing and Wayne Metro is a nonprofit organization that really we, was our starting point on our service division side. And what we do with that is that these are all residential homes in the tri county area. We go as far as Flint. And we go in and we improve the quality of life. If they got leaks in your pipe, we fix the leaks. If they have a faucet is not working, we repair and replace it. If the water will not divert from the tub to the shower we'll replace that or fix that. Outside hose valves will take out the old ones and put in the frostproof ones. Water heaters, we do gas piping. So we have been blessed. We've been doing that for five years with Wayne Metro and Ecoworks, and we've had some other other companies, Sojourner Truth, have asked us to come on and take care of their property for them. So there's numerous other, you know, that are well known in the city that Benkari is blessed to have to be able to go in and be honored to take care of their property with them.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:38:25] Yeah. That's quite the list. Congratulations again. Adrienne Bennett [00:38:30] Thank you.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:38:32] Has there been anything about your story or your business that you wanted to share with me but I didn't ask you about.
Adrienne Bennett [00:38:40] Well, first off, I still want to say I'm in awe of the historical museum selecting, Benkari and Adrienne Bennett to be a part of the hustle. I think you just heard how I'd been hustling, you know, having to have, I don't call it a disability because the one thing about my multiple sclerosis, it made me hone my skills. If I wasn't nerdy before, I'm really nerdy now. Everything has to be in its place. So, it's just an honor and it's a blessing to have been offered this opportunity. And, um, the lovely people I've met so far and, um, it's just, amazing.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:39:34] That's great to hear.
Adrienne Bennett [00:39:35] Yeah. But no, because I brought some things. Like, if you are in the Little Caesars Arena, they have in the suites area, they're showing you the construction, the progression shots. And one of the very last shots you'll see is Benkari. And there's Adrienne with her arms folded. It was freezing that they took that picture. Oh, my God. It was like -20 for a month. And they chose to do the photos that month. And so if
anybody's walking through and what I was told, it's going to be permanently up there. It's shows, as I say, from a hole in the ground up until the different layers. And they made the bowl and they did around the bowl. And there I am. Another one I'm very proud of is going to I'm going to be saying is the is the West Annex and the West Annex, that is was Henry Ford Hospital. This is just some shots when they set the tree on top of the building. And that was the team that was involved with the construction of the West Annex. And if you look, there's two women. There's a female engineer, and there's Adrienne right up front. And the rest are all the guys that was involved with getting out. And it went the first four stories. They took the elevator up another additional two floors and they went back and it went from 4 to 6 floors because they were planning on expanding more. And here this is the one that I am extremely proud of. And when they did this one, find it real quick to show you, where it is it. It's the train station. Oh, this one. Anyone who knows the history of Detroit, there was a Howard Johnson's on West Grand Boulevard and they imploded it. And look at me standing there were four foot wrench. And that's a picture back from when they imploded that. So it's just I'm going to show my legacy of how long I've been around. And, oh, this is this is the West Annex, this is it. This is to show the actual, this. They made this to show the actual building itself. And as I said, it's four floors and this is showing all floors. And this was $80 million, 285,000 square foot. Wow. So it increased Henry Ford to be a million square feet and it became a 1000 bed hospital. And there was the one thing I wanted to show you. Because Ford, they have just went above and beyond. This is the one. Yeah, this is the one. This is Crain's Automotive. And they. This is March 18th, 2019, and then cars got a whole page.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:43:19] Very nice.
Adrienne Bennett [00:43:21] And at the bottom it says, Ford Proud. And there we are. There we are with the blueprints, there's the building, and there's a closeup of me. So. So that's my legacy.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:43:37] That's fantastic.
Adrienne Bennett [00:43:39] Thank you.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:43:40] Three very quick questions and then now we're all done. When you hear the word hustle, what comes to mind?
Adrienne Bennett [00:43:49] It reminds me of what I've been doing for the last 40 some years. It was an industry that didn't want me. You know, it was the negativity. And I had to prove myself. And I did it by hustling. I did it by showing up early. By showing up every day. I did it by being as I'm walking out of the job site with my foreman. Any task I was given. I hustled to get it done and I made sure I did it right. I cannot not make any mistakes. Because I kind of felt there was someone looking over my shoulder waiting. So I had to make sure everything I did, I did it correctly. I dotted my eyes and I crossed my Ts. That's still that's my motto. That's what I still do. So I've been a hustler. Um, I hustled in school. Um, I, I, I enjoy things that other kids don't enjoy. Um, like, I sit in my dining room table, you know, putting together the Apollo space shuttles and stations and just sitting there. So I feel that that's just interwoven. You know, interweaving within myself is part of my DNA. I'm just a hustler.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:45:12] On that note, what comes to mind when you think of the word hustler?
Adrienne Bennett [00:45:16] Well, people normally think of as being negative, but I put a twist on it as positive. Anything negative about me. And I am a hustler.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:45:28] You know, now that you have the business up and running, you're the only master female master plumber.
Adrienne Bennett [00:45:33] No, there are there there is another one. There was a lady, I believe received her license in Michigan. Um, we. I have not met her. This is what I was told. So there's another lady out there.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:45:45] Awesome.
Adrienne Bennett [00:45:46] And there. There was another woman, just passed on. But so I'm not the only one. But as far as African American I'm the first.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:45:56] Gotcha. Yeah, uh, I did that to preface this question. Do you have a new side hustle going on?
Adrienne Bennett [00:46:04] I'm so busy with this. Basically what I'm doing now is I'm on committees and growing on that perspective because I feel that any way to make any changes, the one thing I need to have a change on is women porta johns designating women porta johns on construction sites. OSHA already has designated Porta johns, but they don't have any designated for women. And the reason I say that is because my history, it was dangerous, unsafe, unsanitary and those conditions are still around. One of our female apprentices was leaving a job site driving to go find a clean bathroom. And this has been within the last two years. So for me to make those kind of changes, I need to get on different committees. I need to get on different boards to see who can hear my voice, because there's a lot of boards out there still all men, and they have no clue because they've never had to be a female, never had to take care of themselves, you know, and you know, cause our bibs and to drop my bibs and you get urine. Okay. You've been in a porta john.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:47:29] Yeah.
Adrienne Bennett [00:47:29] And those that are listening to this have been imported. So I don't have to go on to any graphic description, but it's unsanitary. And so I feel that we need a lock on outside the door so we have a key to it. So nobody's in there waiting on us. And when we get in, there's a lock on the inside so they can't snatch a door open on us, and when we're in there, it's clean and we have what we need to take care of ourselves. So that's the one thing that I'm working with, State Senator Erica Guice and State Representative Lori Stone. We've been working together on trying to get this with OSHA and now with Samantha. Samantha is with the MCA Detroit, which is Mechanical Contractors Association, I'm on that board. And now Samantha will be signing papers tomorrow with OSHA. We're doing a partnership with OSHA. So now we'll be able to have someone at the table to be able to have the conversation about why we feel this is so important. We appreciate the designated ones you already have, but women need their own. We're not saying, you know we don't need them to be elaborate. We just need something that's safe and is sanitary for us to use. And those are basic necessities that we need. I unfortunately I can go and share this ended up having a blockage because it was unsafe for me to use them when I was an apprentice. There was nowhere for me to go as I share with you. I was driving 2 hours, I'm out in the country and I happened to find a bar and I had to buy a hamburger to use the bathroom. Which is fine, but in the process of me
being on that job site, I developed a blockage in my intestines and I had to seek medical treatment for it. So, again, there is reasons why women need this is not the way we want it because we just want it to be pretty now is because of the fact that for safe and sanitary conditions, basic necessity.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:49:44] Thank you for sharing that, and thank you for sharing everything you share with me today.
Adrienne Bennett [00:49:49] I hope I hit the points that you asked about. Billy Wall-Winkel [00:49:52] You did, you nailed it.
Adrienne Bennett [00:49:53] Okay. Thank you. Great job. It's been a pleasure. Billy Wall-Winkel [00:49:56] Yes, it has.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Adrienne Bennett, September 7th, 2022
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview, Adrienne Bennett talks about being nominated for the Hustle project and her business Benkari, LLC Plumbing, Water Quality and Conservation.
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Detroit Historical Society
Language
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en-US
Black Business
Detroit
Entrepreneurship
The Hustle
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hustle: Black Entrepreneurship in Detroit
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Detroit Historical Society
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Detroit Historical Society
Language
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English-US
Oral History
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Narrator/Interviewee's Name
The current first and last name of the person speaking or being interviewed.
Mykolas Rambus
Brief Biography
A short biography of the Interviewee
Mykolas Rambus runs a Detroit-based privacy protection service called Hush.
Interviewer's Name
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Billy Wall-Winkel
Interview Place
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Detroit, MI
Date
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8/24/2022
Interview Length
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30:20
Transcriptionist
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Taylor Claybrook
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:00:01] Hello. My name is Billy Wall Winkle. This interview was for the Detroit Historical Society's Hustle Project. Today is Wednesday, August 24th, 2022. And I am in Detroit, Michigan, and I'm sitting down with Mykolas Rambus. Thank you so much. Can you please spell your name for me?
Mykolas Rambus [00:00:17] Sure. It's Mykolas Rambus.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:00:24] Thank you so much. And congratulations again on being one of the honorees.
Mykolas Rambus [00:00:29] Thank you for the hustle.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:00:30] Let's get some baseline questions going. First is what is your business?
Mykolas Rambus [00:00:36] So I run a business called Hush, which is a privacy protection service. We're in the business of helping people take information off the Internet that could be damaging or risky to them. From a financial crime perspective physical crime, intimidation, harassment, perspective or online reputation.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:00:53] So you take down a lot of Facebook pages.
Mykolas Rambus [00:00:55] We do, indeed. But, you know, a lot of time it's just what we call digital hygiene. It's the home address that's out there. It's the phone numbers. It's the pictures of kids and where they go to school that probably the whole world doesn't need to see.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:01:08] How long have you been running this? When did you establish Hush?
Mykolas Rambus [00:01:12] So we started about a year ago, over the summer, doing a lot of the research and development to make sure we can get it right. This whole thing is powered by artificial intelligence and so we started. Then I got going with our first product to market. Our minimum viable product is it's called MVP in October of last year and really got going in March of this year.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:01:33] When did you have the idea for Hush?
Mykolas Rambus [00:01:35] So it's been around for a while, rattling around in my brain when we were building a company named Wealth-X, which is, interestingly enough, a database of information, the world's wealthiest people. We were surprised that billionaires, very affluent families and everyone in between just had a ton of information out there about them. What kind of art was hanging in their vacation home, the phone number to the horse stable and things when in the wrong hands can be pretty dangerous. And so we thought, gosh, these people need a wake up call so that we can be aware. But we also saw just the evolution of the Internet and society and the toxicity that exists and seeing teachers, superintendents, law enforcement being targeted as well when their home address or their phone numbers get in the wind and said, look, people just need help and protection and reduce the amount of information they have out there about themselves and their families than they ever have. And only in the U.S. is it so bad where this kind of information's out there. Most other
places in the world expect some degree of privacy. For whatever reason, the U.S. we mortgage that a long time ago.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:02:41] And you said you returned to Detroit about a year or so ago, right? Right. What made you want to open this company in Detroit?
Mykolas Rambus [00:02:50] So a lot of reasons. One is being able to come home and contribute to the economic resurgence of the area. Just being a piece of that story was it was very important to me to ask my family and so forth. The other part is talent, right? The people here, I believe. Yes, Midwest, but operate differently. This is a town of grit. This is a town of figuring things out. And we're in a business like any startup, of having to grow crafts, how to figure things out. And so I believe we can get some of the best talent in the country. Right. Right here at home.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:03:25] Where is Hush located in the city? Are you downtown? Mykolas Rambus [00:03:29] We're downtown.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:03:30] Okay.
Mykolas Rambus [00:03:30] Right. Right next to Buddy's Pizza.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:03:33] Gotcha. Gotcha. What was the reception you received when you came back to open this business support?
Mykolas Rambus [00:03:42] First of all, just help. I think there's a burgeoning entrepreneur community here, particularly for high tech startups for which we're, you know, part of that community. There are more and more investors here, which is great to see who are looking to forge connections between entrepreneurs and founders. And so I came back pleasantly surprised to know just how much of a vibrant community this is. I think Detroit recently won or has been ranked as having some of the most active or if not the highest gain in venture capital investment in the country not by dollar, by count, but seeing the number of deals that are happening here. There's a lot of great stories.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:04:21] Outside that immediate community that thoroughly understands the how, what was a reception outside of it? Usually you see a lot of support for new restaurants, clothing, things like that here. What is it like for a tech startup?
Mykolas Rambus [00:04:33] So it's it's coming along. Most people, when they think about Detroit, they don't think tech startup. Right? Oh, they should. There's a lot of great businesses, you know, in the area that are growing up, people that have innovative ideas. But it's been, you know, a little bit of a challenge finding talent. Who's been in a startup before? The great
people. And so we've been lucky to introduce some people to what startups are like and how fast we grow and the challenge we've got to figure out. But on balance, it's been fantastic and it's a great place to do business. The cost of living is a lot less. The quality of life is very high when you think about the coasts or other cities, you know, even in the Midwest. And so I think we've got just the right mix of people, you know, upcoming we're bringing 15 of our team members into the city. And I'm so excited to bring remote folks as well as people who are here just to really see what it's all about.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:05:24] Or they had an office outside the city, or are they working from home? Is that what you mean?
Mykolas Rambus [00:05:27] So some work from home. We also have folks who are remote. So we've hired folks who are outside the state in the Midwest or other parts of the country and we're bringing them here. So it will be the first time to the city.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:05:38] Awesome. And then one more quick...Is it like to work here? Just to visit?
Mykolas Rambus [00:05:45] To visit.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:05:45] Oh, okay.
Mykolas Rambus [00:05:46] Although we do encourage folks to make the move as well.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:05:49] Got you. How supportive is the city of Detroit in tech startups now? So we hear a Motor City match. We hear about other programs that are focused on brick and mortars and things of that nature. How how has your relationship with the city of Detroit?
Mykolas Rambus [00:06:04] So we haven't interacted with the city much other than one of their workforce programs, Detroit at work. And so we've been successful in finding talent through that vehicle. We know there's been outreach. I've been fortunate to be part of groups where the city has outreach to. And as a result, I'm able to hear about what's happening for entrepreneurs, for tech entrepreneurs locally, and it seems very active. It seems like they're trying to encourage more and more folks to not only take the risk of starting a business, but also to benefit from the talent that exists here in town.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:06:32] So backtracking a little bit. Where did the name Hush come from?
Mykolas Rambus [00:06:38] So our business was called Privacy Check before. Not the most exciting name, if you will admit you know what we did. But the idea is, well, what would be a cool, what would be a fun name that really encapsulates what we do? And I simply had the idea one day for the name, and that's how we chose Hush. And so far, we've gotten good feedback. People seem to like the name a lot for what we do.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:07:01] I had the question. I lost it. So what's the size of the operation right now? And. And so you're you said your next to Buddy’s, what are you in the building? You're above it?
Mykolas Rambus [00:07:19] Correct, that’s in the Madison building.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:07:20] So what is the size of the operation right now?
Mykolas Rambus [00:07:23] So we're under 50 people. So we've got, you know, room to grow, which is great, but we're hiring almost every week at this point. So we're looking for folks everywhere we can find them.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:07:34] And who are the people you're looking for?
Mykolas Rambus [00:07:37] Product management talent. We're looking for sales talent. We're looking for marketing talent. Pretty much you name the role and that's the fun. One of the fun parts about a growth company is even if not this minute, although we do have open
roles right now in three months, six months, nine months, we're always bringing new people to our organization. We're always on the hunt for talent.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:07:56] And are you primarily looking locally or are you also looking around the U.S. and still offering those remote options?
Mykolas Rambus [00:08:03] So we're still offering remote. We would love to find as many people as we can who will live in Michigan, in the Detroit area, ideally, but certainly live in Michigan. You know, one of the things we're trying to do as an organization, as a startup organization, is help our employees build wealth as well. So not just enough to have a meaningful income. That's great. But, you know, part of the joy, the excitement around startups is the lottery ticket for where this thing can go. But yes, we focus our recruiting on Midwest. We're open to folks from around the country. And we really love folks who are willing to consider making the move to Michigan.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:08:35] So what's next for Hush?
Mykolas Rambus [00:08:38] So scale at this point, we have been very successful in building a solid product and having a fantastic and supportive friendly customers. We want a lot more. We need a lot more of those customers. So that's what's next for us, is crossing our revenue threshold and hitting our plan and also building our brand. We very much believe that, you know, people want this kind of solution, but it's just too hard. It's just too complicated. Have you ever Googled yourself and said, well, this is crazy, how do I get rid of this stuff? It's a pain, right? You've got to find the right link. You've got to reach out, you’ve got to hope…you got a follow up. And it's just too much work and too much involved. And so we want to get to a place where not only we've solved that problem, which we think we have, but also get to a place where people know about us. And so that's going to take a lot of effort, a lot of sales. We'll get there.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:09:27] Awesome. So take me through like your typical day. Without giving too much away. Of course. Don't worry. Like your day at Hush, if you tell people like I run a tech startup. That's what we do. What would you want people to understand?
Mykolas Rambus [00:09:48] Sure. So first thing is that no day is the same. Yes, there's some regularity to the days of the week, but mostly it's structured around getting the big things that have to get done in the early part of the day. And that's just my own process for how I tend to operate and then the emails and phone calls and meetings in the later part of the day, if at all possible. But the reality is, if a client wants to meet your prospect, you take the meeting, right? I had one this morning at 9 a.m., so that's about as prescriptive as I can get after that, especially for a tech CEO, no day is the same. We've been fortunate to hire people in the organization, like I mentioned, who haven't come from tech. And we say to them, if you've ever seen The Matrix, there was a red pill and the Blue pill and okay, but once once you take that choice, there's no turning back because it's exciting. It's interesting. But there's a new challenge every day. And not only because we're figuring things out rebuilding, but also tech companies operate in seasons. And so as we go to the next stage of growth and sophistication and scale of team, there's a whole next set of problems and challenges to be solved. And so every day truly is different.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:10:59] So you mentioned earlier that you wanted to come back to the city. You wanted to be a part of the resurgence. What is it like for you now? Having space in Grand Circus Park? You overlook a beautiful little chunk of downtown. What is it like for you to be down there?
Mykolas Rambus [00:11:15] It's first of all, it's fun. All of the food, Buddy’s is almost too close. But it's great to be back. I will be excited for when people spend some more time in offices. We're a hybrid work design and so we want them to work where they do their best work. That's on Lake Michigan. Fantastic. Lake St. Clair, in the office. That's all fine. But it's a little quiet in the mornings, but it's getting busier by the day. I love the coffee shops that we have. Again, there's just so many great options to gather, folks. That's again, why I'm excited about this first gathering of all of our folks that we're doing is because they get to see so much of that, that same city that we see on a daily basis. But really, you know, it kicks off after middle of the day, nighttime. It's a totally different place. Totally different scene.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:12:01] Yeah. We used to doing a lot of personal questions and trying to pass through them in my head.
Mykolas Rambus [00:12:12] That's okay. I can answer it best I can.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:12:18] So how does Hush engage with the community? Is it still not primary like that in that startup phase where you're not doing a lot of community engagement or is that a part of your business?
Mykolas Rambus [00:12:26] So I think there's two ways for us today. We focus a lot on hedge funds, wealth management, private equity, places where there is high concentrations of affluence. And the word privacy is almost an automatic. And that's fine for starting our business. We think about the Ubers and the Teslas of the world. They started at the high end, right? Uber was black cars in the beginning and worked their way to be more accessible. Same thing for Tesla, although again, they've got a long way to go to be really accessible. You know, in our business we started, like I said, in the high end, but like I mentioned, there are teachers, superintendents, election officials, law enforcement who can benefit from our solution right now. And so to answer your question on community engagement, there are two things. One is, can we be giving back to community based on our success, whether it's to directly funding some of the nonprofits here in town like we recently did with the DIA and or can we offer a product for free. To different organizations or professions as we're doing now for journalists? Right now, we've got a program where if you're a journalist, if you're a journalistic organization, we will give you membership to Hush for free because we know that they need it right more than ever. So that's currently how we're looking at our ways to engage and give back to the community with a lot more to do. We expect to be very active in that regard.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:13:49] And is that offer for locals like in Metro Detroit.
Mykolas Rambus [00:13:53] Absolutely.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:13:54] Or is it for everyone.
Mykolas Rambus [00:13:56] For everyone, for everyone in the U.S. and any journalists in the U.S.This is free access for them in organizations.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:14:08] You're also doing a very good job of preempting some questions. So I try not to have you repeat yourself too much. So what is is there anything that being located here in the city of Detroit offers Hush that other cities doesn't, the other cities wouldn't?
Mykolas Rambus [00:14:30] Sure. So I think lots you know, I'm a big proponent for the state and for the city, not least of which is we're the best place to be from a lifestyle perspective for the next 50, 75 years. Climate change is coming. It's very real. If you look at the maps of where the heat's going to go and what the weather is going to be like, Michigan's probably the best possible spot of all of that. And so I think for people who want to enjoy the outdoors winters or summers, this is a great place. We've got a top ten airport here with Detroit Metro, also a great asset for us in building a national and international business. That's a big part of it. We've got great engineering talent here in town of all kinds. And not just for building mobility solutions, as so many people think about Detroit, but for software engineering as well. We've got great universities and access there as well. Right. And the, if you will, the small triangle between Wayne County, Oakland County and Ann Arbor all work well to to bring that talent together. So I think there are a lot of advantages. Michigan has to be able to build a business here. What we need is more people who are staff experienced, who've been there, done that. They're willing and people are willing to take the risk. We need folks who've been through it and survived and thrived. That will allow more of those kinds of companies to grow and to thrive here. The other thing I'd say is interesting. I can get on a soapbox a little bit about this is as much wealth as there is here in Michigan. And this is from my wealth x days when we were profiling. Where is all the money in the world, let alone in the U.S.? Michigan's the number six for the number of ultra wealthy families. Right. Families or individuals who've got a net worth of $30 million or more. That's a lot of money in Michigan. People wouldn't think that that's the case, but it's true. At the same time, you don't see Michigan as a place where there are lots and lots of angel investor checks being written. If you go to California or Massachusetts or other parts, even Florida, Miami, South Florida these days, there are a lot of people writing 5000 thousand dollars checks to new business owners, entrepreneurs who want to build the next whatever it may be in any other industry. Here, it seems like I'm still trying to learn the workings of this. Folks have made money in ways that have not been high risk. And so it's it's a bit unusual, right, for them to write that checks on entrepreneur. But for this ecosystem to really vibrant it has to happen. I would love to see Michigan create some tax incentives to encourage folks to write those checks to growing and budding businesses. We'll see if that happens, but we can get that. The money's here. We've got to figure how to get the incentives right.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:17:11] Gotcha. Well, so speaking of that, what is Detroit's startup community like? We've we've glanced on it a couple of times. Aside from not having the angel investors and things like that and not usually being typically associated with Detroit, what is it like for a tech investor or a tech startup in the city?
Mykolas Rambus [00:17:32] So first of all, there it's big enough to be meaningful, but small enough to maneuver. You can figure out who the major players in the active industries are pretty readily. We're fortunate to be backed by Detroit Venture Partners. As one another investor Detroit Ventures or Ivy Ventures and other Angel investors here locally and other professional investors. And so there's enough of a community to find. There's not two or three VCs. There's 20, 30 organizations to talk to and there are angel investors. Don't get me wrong, I mentioned it's not as vibrant as it could be for a wider range of businesses. I'm fortunate to be an experienced entrepreneur, but there are folks who are taking the risk of the first time and need that angel investor who's going to take a bigger risk, write on them and just go with the fact that they're passionate and motivated and help them build their business. But all the assets are here. There is enough investment capital. There are enough people to pitch. You have the talent from marketing agencies. You have the engineering talent to pull from. There is nothing that can't be found in this community. It's
big enough to have all of the assets one needs to build any number of kinds of business, whether that's biotech, whether it's mobility, whether it's software and security. All of it exists here in Detroit and Southeast Michigan to give it a very good go.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:18:58] It's okay if this hasn't happened. But I was wondering if there if you've had a moment or if you had an experience where being inexperienced or being experienced in startups helped you navigate something particularly tricky when setting up Hush?
Mykolas Rambus [00:19:12] Great question.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:19:13] Looking back, you're like, Oh, if I didn't already know how to do that. Navigating the city, navigating the VCs here, things like that.
Mykolas Rambus [00:19:20] Sure. That's funny. So I would probably say just networking, right? Maybe this is part of the hustle, but it matters so much. You know, what you know is critically important, but it's you know, that preparation meets opportunity. An opportunity usually comes from networking. Who do you know? Who can you call? Who can get access to? And so I think as an experienced entrepreneur, having a role at Wealth X to call from and call on makes it makes a big difference. It makes life a lot easier. Never solves the problem, right? It's just opening the door, but sometimes even getting the foot in the door can be so difficult if you haven't done it before. So that's probably the the edge, if I can say so. That's been helpful. And I say to any other on your nerves, build that network all the time. You know, I was not at all a social butterfly growing up, ended up at school at MIT, which is not known for social progress. And so I had to learn it. And so I would say to the entrepreneurs, really cultivate, build a network.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:20:27] How crowded is the field you're working on right now? Privacy protection and personal privacy is a burgeoning industry. What is it like currently? Are you a little fish in a big pond? What's kind of status right now?
Mykolas Rambus [00:20:46] So thankfully, there's no company. Everyone thinks of who's who solve the problem. There's no Facebook of our space. The closest thing is LifeLock, which is spent a lot of money on marketing. People might know about it in a certain age category, maybe broader age categories. And they sort of presume that that's the state of the art, the best that's out there. The reality is LifeLock and similar platforms are monitoring tools to let people know if their credit's been impacted. Right, if something's been attempted right. On their financial profile. The reality is, it's interesting to know, but our vision is, well, why would you want to be a victim in the first place? It's like having a house with a thief who's trying all of your locks. How about you put a sign outside of the don't bother your house in the first place, right? And so there's nothing out there like that. So we're in pretty greenfield space. It's a bit of a blind spot, we think, for Silicon Valley because they've made tens of billions of money, trillions over time on the opposite of privacy. On selling people's information. And so we've got a massive opportunity to build a privacy company when there's a whole part of the tech ecosystem that just for now, doesn't understand it.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:22:06] So you mentioned earlier that you wanted open this business in the city. You want to be part of the resurgence. Because you grew up in the city. Do you do that? Does that play an active role in how you work? Did it have a great impact on you? And when you're telling people for whom how how large of a role the Detroit happened in that incredibly messy question.
Mykolas Rambus [00:22:59] It's a great and important question for me from a personal story perspective. This goes back to Detroit, southeast Michigan, Michigan being one of the wealthy states in the country. I grew up in Detroit on seven mile. And so even growing up, you know, it was not Bloomfield Hills, for sure. And so, however, having proximity and recognizing what's possible was a motivating factor for me as a kid. Certainly, I want to build a business. I want to create wealth. I want to take care of my family. And so I was able to see what was possible. And wanting to aim for that for the early part of my life, for sure. I even had a plan when I was ten years old and wrote down my goals for life. And so some of those were financial, clearly, key part of my personal story of growing up in Detroit and seeing what was feasible here right in town. So, yeah, it's always been a part of it. And now coming back to the city, building a company, when I think about our goals and being part of the economic resurgence, it's also helping people on their personal journey to create wealth for themselves, for their families, to help them, you know, buy their home. The other investments they want to have, it's a big part of it, right? Everyone should be able to benefit from what we do and growing companies, not just the founders.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:24:23] You mentioned earlier that Detroit isn't isn't necessarily thought of in the tech startup space, even though we have this underlying wealth and things like that. Do you find Detroit is underestimated or is is just not part of the equation for some people?
Mykolas Rambus [00:24:38] I think it's definitely underestimated and it's beginning to change. Right there is the Time article about being one of the better places to live. I mentioned some of the recent rankings that have come out regarding venture capital investment,
Detroit. So it's starting to get there. People are starting to say, Hey, what's happening in Detroit? There are VCs. I know who for the first time are looking to make a trip just to say, Hey, who should I meet? Who should I engage with and get to know in this community? So it's coming, but there's definitely marketing job to be done right still. You know, I think about the arsenal of democracy and that moniker, which is, you know, aged to say the least. But the underlying community, the underlying apparatus, then all universities, all those things are still here. But we've got to continue to do a good job of telling the story.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:25:23] Is there anything about hush that you wanted to tell me about that I didn't touch on?
Mykolas Rambus [00:25:34] No, I don't think so. I'll think about it. But no, I think I may not want to go in the sales pitch and stuff. Now. It's just that it's. I hope. I suppose the hope with hush is not just that we're protecting bank accounts and the like, but there is this. Increasing societal vitriol, right. That exists between ideas, between people, between parties, between, you know, in some cases, ethnicities and the rest. That is exceedingly unfortunate. And so that's been amplified online. So it seems and so a big part of what we're trying to do is take some of the the oxygen out of that. By removing information online where people can't be threatened or targeted in the ways that they have been even the last two years. And my hope is we do a very good job of that. I think that's if I can point to anything that we are we're mission driven company, but especially there. We need to be able to help. That's part of our mission. People who join our company are joining because they can help with that problem.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:26:44] Awesome. Just a couple, quick questions that wrap it up. When you hear the word hustle or you think of the word hustle. What comes to mind?
Mykolas Rambus [00:26:54] Work hard. Work fast. Work smart. It's. It's all of those, but. You know, I think certainly about being street savvy, knowing how things work, knowing how to
talk to, knowing how to get how things actually get done. Right. I think there's actually a street savviness that comes with the concept of hustle. And absolutely there is all it rise and grind. Call it, you know, factory hours, whatever what to call it.But it's it's getting stuff done and not being afraid of working hard. Right. I think that's something that is also distinctive to Detroit. It's a lot of a lot of other places in the country where that's the case. But I believe that our manufacturing culture has got that ingrained in so many people. I certainly came from a manufacturing family. I think, gosh, everyone almost aligned to Chrysler. So just wait. Is in this town and then working fast. Right. So those are all great. But you got to keep moving. You've got to be speedy. You got to be fast with the next guy or gal or team or whoever it is. And so I love that word for Detroit because I think it describes in so many ways who we have culturally become and by definition, where we're going.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:28:04] And the same question but for the word hustler. Mykolas Rambus [00:28:10] The bad side of that, maybe. I don't know.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:28:13] And that's why we're asking.
Mykolas Rambus [00:28:14] Yeah. You know, it's funny, there's a TV show named Hustle, a British show that may describe the other side of they call it criminal. Call it, you know, unsavory side. But you know, look, I think I was certainly a hustler as a kid, right? I was the one who was, you know, renting video games and, you know, making a profit in those out of my backpack that wasn't illegal, wasn't bad at all. That's how I made money. I was selling computer parts and fixing computers in high school. You know, hustling. So I guess I was a hustler. So I'm going to recant what I said and say, yeah, being a hustler is a good thing. And in fact, some of the best people I've been able to find and attract to the companies I've built have been hustlers. So I'm going to change my view on that going forward.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:29:05] No worries. Some people have a strong disconnect between the two words. One wants the first one is great. The cyclone is not. And others are like, How can you separate them? Now that you have Hush set up and you're working on that, do you have a new side hustle going on?
Mykolas Rambus [00:29:25] No. You know, I was like…But no, this is it, right? So, you know, this is the best that I and, you know, by extension myself family… this is we're all in to building hush. So no, you know, I still enjoy talking about engaging on issues of wealth and wealth creation for any number of communities is probably the thing I'm asked most about is. MC
How does one make a whole lot of money? How do you make $1,000,000? How do you keep $1,000,000? What have you learned from your time at Wealth X and working with private banks and everyone else around this realm? And so, you know, maybe there'll be a future around sharing more in that regard. But for now, 150% hush, this is this is the thing we're building. And until we get off the ground, until cruising altitude, we have a lot of work to do.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:30:15] All right. Thank you so much for sitting down with me.
Mykolas Rambus [00:30:17] Thanks for having me.
Billy Wall-Winkel [00:30:18] That was great.
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Title
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Mykolas Rambus, August 24th, 2022
Description
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In this interview, Mykolas Rambus talks about his privacy protection service Hush.
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
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Detroit Historical Society
Language
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en-US
Black Business
Detroit
Entrepreneurship
The Hustle