1
20
4
-
https://detroit1967.detroithistorical.org/files/original/e00dbe4b31c329d9993b4cbeb3bd81b8.jpg
a1af5fc6830e3cb021c88546b07e18ed
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Detroit 67: Looking Back to Move Forward
Subject
The topic of the resource
Stories gathered to commemorate the summer of 1967 in Detroit.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Detroit Historical Society
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Language
A language of the resource
en-us
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
10/20/2019
Oral History
An audio or video resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Narrator/Interviewee's Name
The current first and last name of the person speaking or being interviewed.
John Kastner
Brief Biography
A short biography of the Interviewee
John Kastner was born in Detroit, Michigan and was a police officer with the Detroit Police Department.
Interviewer's Name
The first and last name of the interviewer.
Lillian Wilson
Interview Place
The place where the interview was conducted.
Detroit, MI
Trinity, FL
Phone interview
Date
The date of the interview in MM/DD/YYYY format.
06/25/2015
Interview Length
The total length of the interview in HH:MM:SS format.
00:37:46
Transcriptionist
The first and last name of the transcriptionist.
Robert Lazich
Transcription Date
The date of the transcription in MM/DD/YYYY format.
01/20/2017
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p>Lily Wilson. Today is Thursday, June 25, 2015. This is the interview of John Kastner. I am Lily Wilson and we are recording this interview for the Detroit Historical Society and the Detroit Historical Museum’s Detroit 1967 Oral History Project by phone with John Kastner in Trinity, Florida. Okay John, you can start by reading to us or letting us know where and when you were born.</p>
<p>John Kastner: It’s about three short paragraphs, just a dissertation, on what went on, okay? Then we’ll have some questions and answers.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Okay, go ahead.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: On Sunday morning, in the summer of 1967, my wife and I had driven our daughters Doreen and Cheryl to a summer girl scout camp called Camp Metamora. It’s about 30 miles north of Detroit. At the camp we met two of our neighbors who had likewise had driven their daughter up to the camp. The four of us decided to stop at a bar on the way home and have a beer. While at the bar I noticed a TV was on. It was showing pictures like a city burning. I asked the bartender, while pointing at the TV, what was going on. He stated that the city of Detroit was burning. He further stated that the blacks were rioting. I then took a close look and confirmed to myself it was Detroit. Returning home and pulling up on my driveway, I could hear my telephone ringing off the hook. I raced into the house and answered the phone. My boss was on the line and told me to get into work immediately – that the blacks were rioting. I quickly dressed for work, put my shotgun in the trunk of my car and drove to police headquarters. I was then put on active duty. While I’m standby in the station room, I watched two civilians walk into the room. One was General Throckmorton. He spoke to the commissioner, who then walked to a map of the city and the general asked him to point out the trouble spots. The commissioner, with a pointer in his hand, placed it over the map and shakily said, “All over the city.” Throckmorton walked over to a telephone and dialed several numbers and then said, “Throckmorton here, send in the 82<sup>nd</sup> Airborne Division.” He then hung up the phone. Approximately four hours later the 82<sup>nd</sup> Division arrived by truck from Selfridge Air Force Base. During the time that they arrived prisoners in the county jail, which was across the street from police headquarters, was rioting. At that time the 82<sup>nd</sup> Airborne troops armed with rifles with bayonets attached entered the county jail and within five minutes there was complete silence. The 82<sup>nd</sup> Division along with Michigan State Police and the Detroit Police patrolled the city and within 48 hours, things were back to normal. Through this time there were hundreds of black males arrested for rioting and with no room to put them, the city placed a large number of buses on Belle Isle. All prisoners from that day on were transferred to those buses. Handcuffed to their seats, they were fed three bologna sandwiches a day for the duration of the riot. That’s it.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Okay John, thank you. I’ve got some follow-up questions for you. In what city were you born and what was your birth date?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: I was born on August 2, 1928 in the city of Detroit.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: What neighborhood were you living in during the summer of 1967.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Where was I living in ’67 – neighborhood. I was living at that time out by Rouge Park, just this side of Telegraph.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: What was the street name?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Tireman.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Tireman?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Yeah. T-I-R-E-M-A-N.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: I know where that is, thank you. What was your job title? What was your specific job in Detroit during 1967.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: At that time I was working at police headquarters with the (?) squad and at the time of the riots I was assigned to the commission’s office as a security.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: What was your rank at the time?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: I was a detective.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: So, what specific things were you doing during those days in July when this disturbance was happening and all this violence was happening? What was your daily routine during those days?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Like I say, I was assigned to the commissioner’s office, my job was actually his security in his office and that area. Like I say, General Throckmorton arrived there. He came in with his aide. He was also assigned there. So he was there all the time. So I’d say there was like five people in that office who fought the riots and I was one of them at the commissioner’s office.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Did you ever feel that the office was in any danger?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Not that the office was in danger, just that security for the commissioner himself. In other words, we were like his bodyguards, so to speak. Nobody would come in the office there and create a commotion or anything. Just keep things going straight.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: I understand. Can you spell the commissioner’s last name for me?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: I’m quite sure it’s spelled G-I-R-A-R-D-I-N.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: During that time, during July 24 and then forward for the rest of that week in 1967, what was the worst thing that you saw, or what was the worst time for you during that time.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: I was really confined to that office, so to speak. I don’t think I heard of anything outside of the fact we had rounded up all the black – we had a curfew, meaning 8 p.m. to 8 a.m. was the curfew in the city. Anybody on the streets at that time would be arrested. Everybody we arrested we transferred to Belle Isle and placed them on city buses. They were handcuffed to the seats on the buses.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: You actually saw this activity happening.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: I transferred a lot of prisoners out there.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: So you were working mainly with the commissioner in protecting his office, but another part of your job was to actually do the work of helping to transfer these prisoners.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Well, my job was to secure the commissioner’s office and to make sure no harm came to him or anybody in that area.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: So later on where there had been all these arrests made, you helped to transfer prisoners?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Right.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Okay, got it. What was that experience like for you looking back? What types of interactions did you have with the people who had been arrested, if any?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: The only thing that comes to mind is the fact that I was one of the few people that transferred prisoners to Belle Isle and put them on these buses. I don’t think anybody knew about that, that we actually filled these buses up with all black prisoners, handcuffed them to their seats and that’s where they sat for the duration of the riot. They were fed three bologna sandwiches a day.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: That’s an interesting detail. We didn’t know that.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Not many people knew it.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Why do you think nobody knew what was going on in terms of the transfer of prisoners?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Are you familiar with Belle Isle -- the Belle Isle Bridge? The whole Belle Isle Bridge was secured by police, so nobody could get on the island. We used that, like I say, to park a number of city buses on the island and that’s where we took all the black prisoners and secured them on the island so they wouldn’t be involved anymore in the riots.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Right, now were there any white prisoners?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: You know, I don’t recall seeing one. There may have been, but to my knowledge I don’t remember seeing any, especially on any of them buses. I’m sure there was white people locked up. They weren’t put on them buses out on Belle Isle as far as my knowledge. I’d remember it.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Okay, thank you. The way that this incident in July of ’67 is sort of been pitched throughout history is that this was a race riot. Black people, especially young black men, were angry at the police. Is that the way that you sort of see this, that you experienced that? Or did your perspective give you another angle on that?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: I can understand their feelings, you have to understand that they started this riot. To my knowledge, I didn’t see any white people involved in the riot, outside of the police. It wasn’t a black and white confrontation, a black and police conversation is what it was. We had black officers too, you know.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Absolutely. Now, this anger toward the police, I’m curious, did any of the people that were being transferred to Belle Isle by yourself and your colleagues, did they say anything to you while they were being transferred, hear them say anything, did they get angry with you? Did you sense any tension beyond what would be normal.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: The ones that I came into contact with were pretty well subdued. They didn’t say much. They knew they were under arrest. Of course, they didn’t know where they were going when we took them to Belle Isle and put them on a bus. They knew when we got there.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: What was the atmosphere like after all this violence ended and things were calm? What was the attitude of the prisoners once they left? Tell me about this process of letting them go. How did that work?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Well, what had happened was after we placed them on the buses and secured the buses in that area, it was about four days they sat there on the buses. There was a black judge – I can’t recall his name – he was the only black judge in Recorder’s Court at the time. You might know or you can check and find out who it was. He ordered all those black prisoners into his courtroom to have a hearing, which we had to do and then he released them all.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Do you think that it was the best course of action to have a single black judge handle work with these particular cases rather than having them sent to multiple –?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Well, apparently whoever was the chief judge in Recorder’s Court at the time thought it was a wise decision and I thought it was a wise decision. I think it made the prisoners probably feel more comfortable when they were brought before a black judge. Of course, he released them all and turned them back on the streets. That was not for us to decide or say. The police department – we just did our job.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: I’m curious, did you sense any tension among either between yourself or other police officers – whether they be black or white – or between the black and white police officers in the department. Was there any sort of resistance to integrating the police force in the 1960s?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: I didn’t quite understand that question.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Was there any resistance within the police force among yourself and your colleagues to the integration of the police force – getting more black officers.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Well, at that time there weren’t that many black officers on the department. There wasn’t that many and the ones that were on were good officers. I had good friends that were black officers.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: So you yourself had no problem</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: No. Color wasn’t the problem. It was the people creating the problem, black or white.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: So, did you ever hear from your fellow officers, not yourself, of course, who were white, was there any disgruntlement about more black officers being hired after the riots?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: I know there was more black officers. The ones that were on the job at the time, they thought the same way we did. Whoever was creating the problems, they had one place to go, and that was to jail Get them off the street. If you were a black officer, you were white enough to be like that.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: What about after things had calmed down and into August of 1967, what was sort of your biggest challenge as a police officer, as a detective, at that time? How did your job change as a result of this incident?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Well, we weren’t too happy about the black judge releasing them all like he did. We weren’t too happy about it. Outside of that, as a police officer you have a job to do and you just do it. You know, you take the good with the bad. I’m sure there were a lot of officers that weren’t too happy about it. Nothing you could do about it. You could quit the job if you wanted to, that’s about all you could do. But no, I think everything started to go along smoothly. Nobody got bent out of shape about it.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: What was the date that you entered the police force?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: I entered the police force – I joined January of 1951.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: So you had quite a bit of experience by the time 1967 rolled around.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Yeah, right – almost 16 years.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: You mentioned that after July of 1967 things began to be run more smoothly. How long were you working as a police officer after ‘67?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: I didn’t quite get that one.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: When did you retire from the police force?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: When did I retire from the police? October 1978.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: How did you see the city change between 1967 and 1978?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: It turned almost completely all black. But, you know, I’ll give you a little story. Coleman Young was the mayor of the city of Detroit. Do you remember that name?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Yes.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: He was the first black mayor of the city of Detroit. The statement he made when he went into office was “I’m going to run Whitey to Eight Mile Road.” In other words, Eight Mile Road is the city limits. The exact words he says “I’m going to run Whitey to Eight Mile Road.” That was on TV and everything else. When they first selected the mayor, that was about the first thing that came out of his mouth. He succeeded. That was “white flight.” It was a bad thing to say, you know.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Now after 1967, Roman Gribbs became mayor. I’m wondering, do you think you noticed the biggest shift taking place between the end of Gribbs’ mayorship and then Coleman Young taking office? Aside from Coleman Young saying that, what do you think sort of calmed things down after the riots and what do you think sort of instigated the trouble afterwards?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Well, the statement he made that he was going to run Whitey to Eight Mile Road, a lot of white people got the hell out of the city. They were thinking there is no place for us and just got the hell out. In fact, most of the police officers we had to live in the city limits. Most of us moved out – Do you know where Rouge Park is?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: We moved to just out, just west of Rouge Park in an area with the nickname “Copper Canyon.” Because all the policemen, that’s where we lived. It was called “Copper Canyon.” We had to say within the city limits of Detroit to belong in the department.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: So, you found a way to make that work while being away from the city.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Like I said, that area that I lived in was all policemen. It was the safest place in the world.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: I can imagine. So that’s what you did. And then when did you move Florida?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: I retired in ’78 and moved to Florida in ’78.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: When did you move to Rouge Park -- to Copper Canyon?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: That was way before the riots. In fact I worked at the 13<sup>th</sup> Precinct, which was at Woodward and Hancock. Do you know where that is? Woodward Station? That’s where I worked when I moved out to Rouge Park.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: So you were one of the first police officers to sort of settle in that Rouge Park area – on Tireman you lived, you said.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: I wouldn’t say that. I was in no big hurry to get out there. At the time I was living in an apartment down on Twelfth Street. We rented a mile home. We bought a home as far out west as we could get – well like I said, out in Copper Canyon.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Right. So you lived on Twelfth Street then. What crossroad?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: What crossroad? I’m having a senior moment now. Twelfth Street and – it was a real busy street. I can still remember the address 12255. Davidson! Right off of Davidson.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Davidson. Got it. You lived there until you moved to Rouge Park.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Yeah, then I moved out to Tireman, out by Rouge Park.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Initially, I assume you were like a rookie police officer in the early Fifties you lived on Twelfth Street, which ended up being the center of riot activity in ‘67. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: True, but like I say at the time it was just the wife and I. We were both working. We had our first born child on Twelfth Street. We moved off there in three months. We bought a home, like I say, out by Rouge Park.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: What was Twelfth Street like in the Fifties?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: It wasn’t that bad. I remember there was a little beer and wine store across the street from me. It was mixed, black and white. It was all white people living in the apartment building I was living in – blacks walking by or whatever. No big problems.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: So what do you think, since you were living in the heart of the city, and you were a police officer and had a lot of on the ground perspective, what do you think instigated the violent activity that happened in July ’67?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Well, I’ll tell you what happened. There was a bar down on Twelfth Street and Livernois area, between Twelfth Street and Livernois. It was an all black bar; blacks attended there. This particular night, the night the riot started, a large group of these blacks congregated outside of this bar. They got kind of unruly. This was about 2:30 in the morning when the bar closed. So they dispatched two police officers in a patrol car to break it up, to get them out of there. The owners of the bar made the call. Well, the officers when got there the unruly crowd got really unruly. The police officers were in the car and they start shaking the car. There must have been 20, 30 people doing it. The officers somehow got out of that car and ran. They tipped that police car right over and set it afire. That was the start of the riots.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: So before that night, on July 24 [July 23] –well, the early morning hours of July 24 [23]--what do you think – was there tension in the city? What was going on?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: The blacks all lived in a certain neighborhood. Most of them lived east of Woodward Avenue. They were down on Brush Street, St. Antoine, of course Hastings Street was a heavy black community. But they were all in that one area. So they were pretty well contained in that one area. Just west of Woodward Avenue, was Second Street and Third Street. That was all white Southerners, people who came up from the south during the war to work in the factories. That group didn’t get along too good: the blacks and then whites in that area, if you know what I mean. Of course, the blacks stayed on their side of Woodward Avenue and the whites stayed with the Southerners – Southern workers, I should say – stayed on their side of Woodward Avenue. No real problems.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: So it was very segregated, would you say?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Yeah, very segregated. In fact, I worked at the Woodward Police Station, the 13<sup>th</sup> Precinct, which was right on the corner of Woodward and Hancock. So that sat right in between the two, the Southerners and the black people.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: And then white people were living in other neighborhoods.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Yes, both east and west. You get four or five blocks east of Woodward and four or five blocks west of Woodward, it was all white.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: But it’s interesting that the Twelfth Street area where you lived with your wife and your young child in the early Fifties, it’s interesting that that was mixed black and white, even though certain buildings were lived in by white tenants and certain buildings were lived in by black tenants, right?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: A good possibility, yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: So, I wonder what that was like living in an integrated neighborhood in a very segregated city.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Well, from where I was sitting, as the blacks moved in, the whites moved out. Sooner or later, it was either all black or all white. Like I said, blacks moved into certain of these rundown neighborhoods where whites were still living. Whites slowly moved out, farther out west or farther out east.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Is there anything else that you can remember about July 1967 that you would like to share with us?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Did I read my presentation to you?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: You did at the beginning of the recording. We got that on the record, you did read that. I’m wondering is there anything else that you’d like to share with us.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: No, I just put about everything that I thought in that little presentation I gave you.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Okay, I have one final question for you, if you don’t mind. We talked a little bit about the integration of the police force, how it was mainly white officers throughout the Fifties and Sixties. You were working as a police officer. I wonder, did you feel that there were any discriminating practices against black people when you were a police officer.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: People on the job, you mean?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Yeah, maybe not yourself. Did you feel there were discriminating practices against black people?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: The only I can say is that I was at the 13<sup>th</sup> Precinct, like I say on Woodward Avenue, between East and West Detroit. We had one black crew. There were three black officers and they were assigned to one vehicle. Of course, only two were on and one would be off or whatever. So we had one what we call black crew and they were east of Woodward in the black area. We got along good with them. I can still remember one incident which is kind of interesting. We had a room we played cards in right before roll call. Before we went on duty we’d sit there and play cards before 8:00 or whatever time we were going on duty. This one particular time we had a new black police officer, a young black officer -- just a young kid, 21, 22 years old. He came on the job and we had previous to him one black crew, three other black officers; they were older guys. I remember this one particular day when this officer came on the job. A bunch of us whites would play cards before roll call. We were playing cards and this young black officer came over and was watching us. One of the older black officers – his name was Donny Lucas – he was about six foot five and weighed about 350 pounds. He walked over there to the table where this young black officer was watching. He grabbed him by his collar and says, “Come on, nigger, you get your ass on over here with us. Don’t be bothering white officers.” That’s how it was. That’s how segregated we were. Those were the exact words he used.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Even though there were an increasing number of black officers throughout the Sixties and after the riots, there was segregation within the police force.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: That went on for quite a while. I remember seeing the same black officer out at a grocery store way out on the west side where I lived. I happen to run into him one day. He seen me and came walking up to me with a big smile on his face. “Hey Kast, I bet you never thought you’d see me out here.” This is the same black officer that yanked that other one away from us. I got along with him. There were no problems. They knew their place. This one young officer he thought he was something special, I guess. He went and straightened him out in a hurry. So that’s how things were then.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Did that change at all after 1967?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Oh yeah, it changed. Like I said, prior to ’67, all black officers we had assigned to the 13<sup>th</sup> Precinct or the 7<sup>th</sup> Precinct, which is right down central part of the city, all black areas. But after that they started showing up in white areas. In fact, I got a little story I can tell you. The situation was we had a barricaded gunman one time. He was a white man. He had a rifle and was barricaded in a house. We was over there trying to get him out of there. One black officer over there he was assigned to this precinct. I knew him real well. Anyways, gunfire started, the guy barricaded started shooting through the window of this house, this picture window. A lot of fire broke out. Everybody started shooting. It was like a shooting gallery. One of the police officers got killed. Of course, we all had to turn our firearms into the scientific lab. They wanted to find out who shot and killed the police officer because it was a .38 caliber bullet, it wasn’t the caliber of weapon the barricaded man had. So we went through and the sergeant I was talking to, a friend of mine over at homicide, on the phone from the scene of this shooting. I had this black officer kept tugging on my arm. He was the only black officer at the scene. I said “Get the hell away from me. I’m busy. Get the hell away from me.” What happened was it was his gun that killed the white police officer. In other words, it was by accident.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Of course. So what happened?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: I never seen him after that. I never seen him. Like I said, we all had to turn our guns in to homicide and they examined the guns to see which gun killed the officer. Of course, it turned out to be the black officer’s gun. I’ve never seen him from that day on, whether they took him inside and said, “You better resign from the department and get out of here in a hurry,” whatever. Word got out that you killed a white officer, it was going to be tough for you. I never seen that officer again. I don’t know what happened to him.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LK: What date was that?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: What date you said? God, I don’t know.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LK: The year?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Well, let me see. I was a sergeant at the time. I got promoted to sergeant -- I was a uniform sergeant at the time, promoted in 1968 to uniform. Sometime around ‘68, ‘69.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LK: Interesting. Do you think he would had to resign if he was white?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: If he’d been right?</p>
<p>LK: White.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Shoot that one to me again.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LK: Do you think that officer that accidentally killed the other officer, do you think he would still had to resign if he had been a white officer?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: I don’t know if he resigned or what, ma’am. I just never seen him after that date. I know that he was scared to death. He just kept grabbing my arm. He was the one who shot him. He was just scared to death, all white officers at the scene. At the time, we didn’t know if the other officer was dead. He was found out in about 15 minutes when we got information back from Receiving Hospital he was deceased. But again, I never seen that officer after that day. We all turned our guns in. We had to turn our guns in. They wanted to determine who killed the officer through ballistics. When they found out who it was – like I said, I never seen that officer after that day. Now whether he was taken aside and said “For the better of everybody, it’s best you resign and get the hell out of here.” I think that’s what happened. I don’t know, but if that’s what happened. All these white officers would have gone bananas thinking this black officer killed a white officer even though it was an accident Not many know about that, either.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Do you remember that black officer’s name?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: What the hell was his name? Can’t think of it. He was a nice guy. Like I said, he came up to me and pulled me by the arm. He was pulling on my arm, you know, letting me know he was the one that shot him. He was scared to death. He was a nice young fellow, real nice guy.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Do you remember the officer’s name that was shot and killed that day?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Oh my god. I can see a picture of him. No, offhand, I’m sorry but I can’t. I can still picture the guy, still picture him. I can’t think of his name. He worked at the same precinct.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Well John, thank you so much for talking with us. Is there anything else you would like to say on the record?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Not really. I can’t think of anything.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: We really appreciate it and thank you for your time.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: No problem.</p>
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
Audio
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
37min 46sec
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Lillian Wilson
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
John Kastner
Location
The location of the interview
Detroit, MI
Trinity, FL
Video
A link to the video
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Scoq513hEGM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
John Kastner, June 25th, 2015
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview, Kastner discusses his time as a police officer with the Detroit Police Department in 1967 and the years after.<br /><br /><strong>***NOTE: This interview contains profanity/explicit language.</strong>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Detroit Historical Society
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
01/20/2017
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio/WAV
Language
A language of the resource
en-US
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Oral History
1967 riot—Detroit—Michigan
82nd Airborne Division-US Army
Belle Isle
Copper Canyon
Detroit Police Department
General Throckmorton
Mayor Coleman Young
Mayor Roman Gribbs
Recorder's Court - Detroit
-
https://detroit1967.detroithistorical.org/files/original/45d37ab05529d3cfab3f66d34b5098fe.JPG
c6cd78e735202e322a2493721d5bd55f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Detroit 67: Looking Back to Move Forward
Subject
The topic of the resource
Stories gathered to commemorate the summer of 1967 in Detroit.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Detroit Historical Society
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Language
A language of the resource
en-us
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
10/20/2019
Oral History
An audio or video resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Narrator/Interviewee's Name
The current first and last name of the person speaking or being interviewed.
Ray Mabarak
Brief Biography
A short biography of the Interviewee
Ray Mabarak was born in Detroit in 1922. He served in the Army Air Corps and National Guard. He was in the Guard when they were sent to Detroit during the uprising.
Interviewer's Name
The first and last name of the interviewer.
Julia Westblade
Interview Place
The place where the interview was conducted.
Grosse Point, MI
Date
The date of the interview in MM/DD/YYYY format.
08/12/2016
Interview Length
The total length of the interview in HH:MM:SS format.
00:47:21
Transcriptionist
The first and last name of the transcriptionist.
Celeste Goedert
Transcription Date
The date of the transcription in MM/DD/YYYY format.
12/02/2016
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p class="BodyA">JW: Hello, my name is Julia Westblade. Today is August 12, 2016. We are in Grosse Pointe, Michigan, at the Grosse Pointe War Memorial and we are sitting down with—</p>
<p class="BodyA">RM: Ray Mabarak.</p>
<p class="BodyA">JW: This recording is for the Detroit Historical Society’s Detroit 1967 Project. So, can you start by telling me where and when you were born?</p>
<p class="BodyA">RM: I was born in Detroit on the east side on January 25, 1922 and I was born on 2408 Mt. Elliott. And from there in 1926, we moved to Cadillac Boulevard on the east side of Detroit, a very fine home right near Water Works Park. That was in 1926 and I went to Annunciation High School for 12 years, I went from first grade to twelfth grade. 12 years with a parochial school, which is a very good education. I also went to Southeastern High to take mechanical drawing and shop because our school didn't have it to offer it. I went there on Saturday for four hours and I graduated from there and went to work at Chris-Craft Motor Works up in Algonac. I was making 70 cents an hour building engines. That was in 1940-41. Then in ’41 they decided to change jobs because they were driving them out 40 miles a day each way. So I went to aircraft school on Woodward and Stimson and I learned how to do aircraft riveting and repair. And I finished up with that and one day I got a call from Briggs Aircraft to come down and interview for a job building airplane wings. So in the spring of 1942 I went to work for Briggs Aircraft. At that time, they were building wings for the B-17, the Willow Run was just being built at that time and I decided I wanted to join the military. In November of 1942, I decided to join. I went down to join and they said, “You can’t join because you have a 1-E essential occupation deferment. You can’t join because you have to build airplanes. You’d have to get permission from your employer. I went back in, they said, “You’re crazy!” but I said, “That’s what I want to do, I want to fly a plane.” So, November of 1942 I was sworn in at the Detroit Olympia Stadium. Fifteen thousand people there on a Sunday night, November 2. I took the oath of enlistment there and they told us they’d let us know when we were going to be called in—</p>
<p class="BodyA">JW: What branch did you serve in?</p>
<p class="BodyA">RM: Army Air Corps, Army Air Corps. At that time, the Army Air Corps was part of the Army. The Air Corps did not become U.S. Air Force until 1947.</p>
<p class="BodyA">JW: Okay.</p>
<p class="BodyA">RM: And I got home one day and the later part of October and said you are being sworn in on the 2nd of November at Olympia Stadium and I took my oath of office-enlistment office-and at the time I went to join, I weighed 122 pounds, and I was only five feet five [inches] and they said, “You’re too light; you need to weigh 126 pounds.” So what I did is I bought six bananas and a quart of milk and sat in front of the Federal building and ate those six bananas and drank that quart of milk and rushed in and said, “Hurry up and weigh me!” And I managed to pass the physical. Well, this was November 2 and they said, “We’ll let you know when we’ll call you in.” And I went back to work and in January 23 I got a notice, a report on a Friday night that the Union Depot Station on Fort and Third Street-they had two railroad stations, they had Michigan Central and Union Central and we had no idea where we were going and I said goodbye to the family and all of sudden, we end up in Florida in Miami, right on the beach, not too bad in January. And we went down for training. I came home in June of ’43, they had a small riot at Belle Isle and I can recall that happening and it was not very pleasant.</p>
<p class="BodyA">JW: What do you remember about that riot?</p>
<p class="BodyA">RM: Not too much, I was in military, I had to leave on a Sunday afternoon to go back. I was at the station at the University of Toledo, that’s where I’d take my pre-basic and I recall, most of all, I remember Belle Isle being a hot point, and they had a lot of altercations there. I left to go back to school and of course, when I went back to Toledo, went down for a classification in Nashville in May of 1943 and they didn't need any more pilots and they wanted to make me a navigator bombardier, but I didn't want to do that, and they said, “What do you want to be?” And I said, “I’ll be a tail gunner on a B-17,” which is really, a dumb thing to do but I went off to Jefferson barracks and all of a sudden, I’m on a train going to Canada State College, went to engineering because they wanted to make me an engineering offer for Germany. March of 1944, they wipe out the program and I end up at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri Infantry, the division. What happened at that time is that they were getting ready for the invasion of Europe and they needed a lot of replacements because they knew they’d have a lot of casualties. They took all the people out of our division and sent them to Europe to be replacements. You remember the movie “Saving Private Ryan?”</p>
<p class="BodyA">JW: Mhm.</p>
<p class="BodyA">RM: You may recall the scene where they were counting the dog tags and they saw all these young guys coming in and they were replacements, brand new people. Some guys were killed, they’d never fired a rifle. So we trained for Japan, we did our training in Fort Leonard Wood. We went to California to San Luis Obispo and they have Camp Cook California and Camp Callan, California. We trained with the marines for invasion and we were on landing ship tank, landing vehicle personnel, and we learned how to jump off of a ship and get into the small boats. Some of the ships had big ramps and we just dropped the ramps but we were on these landing vehicle personnel and they had a ramp on those. They had like a platoon of people, like, 40 people and a little higgins boats. They had a lot of casualties so we were training for the invasion of Japan. In December of 1945 when they had the Battle of the Bulge, we were in California ready to go to Japan for the invasion there, which would take place later that year. Patton had lost a lot of troops in the Battle of the Bulge and he wanted 9,000 troops. He called for replacements and they sent our whole division over to Europe. So we went over to Europe, we ended up in River Valley, we took the towns of Siegburg and Solingen and Düsseldorf and then went on down to Bavaria, Austria, Bavaria, and Czechoslovakia and finished up the war there May 8, 1945. We were the first unit out of Europe, came back to the States, got back on a boat, went to Japan to drop the bomb. We came on down to the Philippines and when they signed the treaty on the Missouri, we ended up going to Japan as occupation, our division had like 25,000 square mile of territory to be occupied. And of course, we got out in 1946 and joined the Guard in ’47 and of course was with the Guard in 1967. At the time I got out of the Army, they wanted me to join a reserve, I said “Forget about it.” But I did join the Guard and I was in the Guard for about 35 years. So that’s how we end up being involved in the riot of 1967, quite an experience.</p>
<p class="BodyA">JW: Yeah, so growing up in Detroit, and then you went down to Florida and Missouri, those places around the country. I know you were on a military base but growing up in Detroit, how were those areas different? Did they seem different to you than growing up in Detroit?</p>
<p class="BodyA">RM: The other parts of the country?</p>
<p class="BodyA">JW: Yeah, like Missouri.</p>
<p class="BodyA">RM: No, I’ll tell you, Detroit had about a 1,800,000 people in Detroit. Right now, I think you’re down to about 660,000. During the war, there were so many people in Detroit working in the defense industries, like Willow Run and the tank. Detroit was The Arsenal of Democracy because they built, it was a beautiful city, it had a lot of trees, I lived on Cadillac Boulevard we had Water Works Park, it was a great place to live. We had lots of nationalities, and of course, they had what they call Black Bottom there on Hastings, which was were mostly the Afro-American lived there but I never grew up with racism whatsoever because my father had a store down on Elmwood and Hendricks and we had employees there and most of our customers were African American and different nationalities and I don't recall any such thing as racism. We had people working for us, we had people working in the store. That’s the way I was brought up is everybody’s a human being. What happened in 1967, it was hot, probably like today, and we never had air conditioning in our house, we’d just sweat it out. There was no such thing as air conditioning. I used to sleep at Belle Isle when I was working the night shift. I’d go over to Belle Isle to sleep during the day because it was cooler. But Detroit was a marvelous place to live in. It had beautiful homes and beautiful streets and it was actually way ahead of the time as far as people are concerned. In fact, during the war, there were so many people in Detroit that the area around the Chrysler plant, and Hamtramck and where they built cars, that they had rooming houses. People lived in a rooming house, maybe eight or ten people in a house. People rent out their rooms and they had so many people that the day shift slept in the bed at night and the night shift slept in the bed during the day, the same bed. In fact, when they built Willow Run, they built all these apartments with housing for the workers and I remember, I was a [jig ?] leader for building airplanes and I had 24 Rosie the Riveters working with me and I’d say that, well Kentucky had more people coming to Michigan than any other state. There was a lot of industry in Ohio but nothing in Kentucky so a lot of these people came up and I trained a lot of women how to do riveting, it’s quite an art. They’re called Rosie the Riveters. In fact, the Ford plant hired—remember the movie “Wizard of Oz?” Remember all the small people in it?</p>
<p class="BodyA">JW: Mhm.</p>
<p class="BodyA">RM: Ford hired all those small people to work on the aircraft industry because they were so small they could get into a corner that you couldn't get into. We used blind riveting, I mean you could rivet around a corner. It was interesting. But Detroit was a marvelous place to live, it really was and I had a great childhood. I enjoyed my childhood, we had the Water Works Park right there. Are you from the east side at all?</p>
<p class="BodyA">JW: No, I’m not.</p>
<p class="BodyA">RM: Are you from Detroit?</p>
<p class="BodyA">JW: I grew up about two hours away.</p>
<p class="BodyA">RM: Where’s that?</p>
<p class="BodyA">JW: Hillsdale.</p>
<p class="BodyA">RM: Oh, is that right? But it was a nice place to live.</p>
<p class="BodyA">JW: Yeah, it sounds like it. So you were in the National Guard and you had been in the National Guard for about 20 years.</p>
<p class="BodyA">RM: Well, no. At that time, I joined the Guard in 1947, I was in the Guard at that time for ten years. Because I got out in 1982. I got out of the service in 1946, I joined the Guard in April of ’47, the riot happened in July of ’67, that’s ten years. At that time we trained. They didn't do a lot of training for riots, it wasn't part of the military. We were National Guard for United States. We were trained for combat, we were trained for artillery, we never really got much training as far as riot training. After that, they started riot training at Fort Custer of attacking buildings and breaking windows and firing, the whole thing. What happened to go on with the story, what happened in 1967 is that the powers to be took all these young men and put them on street corners, they were getting shot at. They shot the streetlights out. Nobody took care of feeding them, they didn't have any change of clothes. We didn't know where they were. I was in a unit with an officer, and we didn't have no idea. In the Berlin, they had a deal in Martin Luther King, they an altercation but they found out from the riot of ’67 that you never take a military organization and break it up and take individuals from it. You have to have a command, you have to have a unit commander, a platoon commander, a squad leader, sergeants in charge of their troops, and sergeants in charge of corporals and corporals in charge of privates, and privates in charge of PFCs. But it wasn't until then that they really found out that they needed more training for domestic problems. Our people worked with the police department, we rode with them. The people in Detroit were very, very kind. I remember we had people in almost every public school. I was stationed at the auditorium where we had state police, city police. We slept on folding cots for all the troops and of course, we fed them. But we had a lot of people that brought food for the military. A lot of civilians, residents of Detroit. They’d come to the schools and they had cakes and they had different things and they brought them. Today you’d have to check it all before you eat it. In those days there was no such thing as worrying about someone poisoning you. People were doing it out of the good of their heart. My in-laws had a store on Gratiot and Mt. Elliot, which was right in the middle of all the things. But they were always good to the people and the people in the neighborhood protected those stores. If a merchant treated these people properly, the people protected them. There are an awful lot of good people in this city. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who aren’t.</p>
<p class="BodyA">JW: How did you first hear about what was going on in the city?</p>
<p class="BodyA">RM: How did I feel?</p>
<p class="BodyA">JW: How did you first hear about it?</p>
<p class="BodyA">RM: I got back, we left Detroit Sunday morning, which is the day of the riot. Saturday night when they had the altercation about raiding the blind pig, and that’s when this all started. When I left, and I lived on Harvard at the time, we left at about 8 o’clock in the morning to go back to Grayling and we got to Grayling and someone said, “Have you heard about Detroit?” and we said, “No, what happened?” and they said “There’s a riot and we might be called up.” They said, “Make sure you’re available.” Because I was an officer, a motor officer, and my function was to take a convoy down to Detroit. And at 5 o’clock in the afternoon, I believe it was about 5, they said, “We’re leaving tomorrow morning. We have to get all the equipment loaded, we have to get ready to go.” And we left at 3 o’clock in the morning from Grayling, at dark, and we got to Detroit at about 8 o’clock in the morning. That’s when we got the impact. They had a curfew at 8 o’clock at night you had to get off the streets. No one was allowed on the streets. Being on the armory out there on Eight mile road, you could hear all the traffic coming back and forth and after 8 o’clock, the traffic started to slow down and at midnight, there was nothing moving. Nothing moving. Only the military and the state police were roaming the streets. My truck got a bullet hole in it on the Lodge. We left the Lodge coming downtown. We passed the motels there at the Boulevard, East Grand Boulevard and West Grand Boulevard and 94, there was a motel up there and they were firing rifles at military equipment. I have a bullet hole right on the back of my truck. And my brother worked, was a court clerk for Judge Colombo, who was a recorder’s court judge. The courts at that time were working on a 12 hour shift, noon to midnight and midnight to noon. My brother and Judge Colombo were on midnight to noon and they were down at the recorder’s court down there. Being in the military, I could go anywhere I wanted. I took a vehicle the night I got shot at, I took a vehicle and went on down to the court and sat there and Judge Colombo said, “Are your weapons loaded?” And I said, “Yes, sir.” And he said, “Good, we may need them.” They had all these court cases, all these looters, they were all black of course because that’s where the riot was. What they were doing at that time was they were taking all the people who were being arrested to Belle Isle and putting them on buses. They put them on buses, they fed them bologna sandwiches, they kept them on buses, and allowed them to go to the bathroom. And then, when they came to court, they’d bring whole bus over and they kept them there until they’d had court time and they’d bring them into the court room. Now, I can recall sitting in the court room, on the side in the witness stand. I can recall, one fellow was a very nice looking gentleman and Judge Colombo was really, a very fair judge. And they said to him, “You don’t look like a person who’d be looting.” And he said, “I’m not.” And they said, “Well, what were you doing in that store?” He said, “I was trying to get these kids to stop stealing, I work for Ford Motor.” And he said, “I was in the store trying to get these kids out and the police came in and they arrested me.” And they said, “How long have you been on this bus?” And he said, “Three days.” And they said, “You know, you don't belong on that bus.” He said, “I’m just going to charge you for three days but you’ve already served that time. You’re not guilty, you’re a good person.” He started to leave but they said, “No, you can’t leave now because they have a curfew. If you go out in the streets now, you’ll be arrested again.” Then there was another fellow, I can recall very vividly, another fellow they charged with arson. The judge said to him, “Did you burn that house?” And he said, “Yes, sir.” Judge said, “Why’d you burn that house?” He said, “Well I came home one time and my girlfriend had another man in the house and I decided to burn them out.” Another fellow was charged with looting and possession. He had a washing machine in his trunk that was brand new in a carton. He said you're charged with looting. He said, “I didn’t loot that, I bought it from a guy at a traffic stop. I gave him a five dollar bill for a washing machine.” But there was a lot of different stories happening but unfortunately, it happened. It happened and I know that.</p>
<p class="BodyA">JW: So you said that the National Guard hadn't done much with riots before that. Do you think that the National Guard was prepared for what was going on in Detroit or no?</p>
<p class="BodyA">RM: Well that’s a loaded question. We were prepared for combat. Didn’t matter what kind of combat. Training for a civilian situation, I think that the big mistake, in fact during the riots, it was getting a little bit out of hand, and they called in the federal-we became federalized, it means we were actually under Army control and they brought in General Throckmorton. I don’t know if you've ever heard that term before?</p>
<p class="BodyA">JW: I think so, yeah.</p>
<p class="BodyA">RM: General Throckmorton was the Commander of the 82nd Airborne. The 82nd Airborne came to the state fairground, they set up tents over there. Was the Army better than the Guard? Maybe they were better trained, because we had a lot of young people in the Guard. But we were not functioning as a unit, we’re functioning as a whole bunch of people. Because they took our people from us. There’s a lot of criticism of the National Guard but they did their job as they had to do. We had to train for holidays, decoration days, Fourth of July we’d ride with the state police and there was no Guard. They had state troops. The Guard was activated for the war in 1943 when they had that thing at Belle Isle. There was no National Guard at that time, they had state troops. But the state troops were people who didn't go into the military. There were a lot of people who offered to be state troops, but they didn't have the training. We had training, but the training was not aimed at civilian training, it was aimed at military, that was our function. We’d go to war. How do you handle, you know, they had the Kent State situation during the ‘Nam war. They had people, they become unruly, they become dangerous. The Guard is well trained now. They trained a lot of for civilian insurrections but let me put it this way, the troops and the Guard were civilians wearing a uniform. The National Guard, they were your brothers, and your cousins, and your uncles and your parents and your neighbors. And the Army, when they came in the 82nd Airborne, they had a few problems too with the unruliness with the military because they were different. They were different people, they were not Detroiters. So the Guard got a lot of criticism-uncalled for, in my opinion. They never got to the root of the problem. They did their job. We did our job.</p>
<p class="BodyA">JW: Were you assigned to a specific area in the city or did you go all over?</p>
<p class="BodyA">RM: What happened is that they took the battalion, or maybe had company, and put them in Central High School. I think the 82nd Airborne was at Eastern High. They took wherever they had places to sleep, maybe gymnasiums, they put a company there and they patrolled the area there. My job at division headquarters. Our job, we had five battalions. I was at the headquarters. I was stationed at the artillery armory with the headquarters. I was also a motor officer and I used to be in charge of equipment so I used to make sure that the units around the city that [unintelligible] was operating in tune because they came through us.</p>
<p class="BodyA">JW: So as someone who grew up in Detroit, how did you feel seeing what was going on in the city?</p>
<p class="BodyA">RM: I feel worse now about what’s happening in Detroit than I did then. I have to qualify that. You had pockets of areas that were not very good. Today, you don’t live in Detroit now do you?</p>
<p class="BodyA">JW: I do, I live by Wayne State.</p>
<p class="BodyA">RM: Whereabouts?</p>
<p class="BodyA">JW: I live by Wayne State.</p>
<p class="BodyA">RM: Okay. Detroit had 1,800,000 people. Detroit was a beautiful city. And now it has 660,000 people. You had a very high influx of housing. What’s happening to the neighborhoods is sickening. If you drive around the neighborhoods, I feel very, very disappointed, I just feel terrible because I remember Detroit as being a vibrant city with beautiful homes and beautiful streets. Now I drive around the city and I say, “What did you do to my city? That’s not the city I remember.” I realize they’ve had problems, they’re still having problems with the police forces and they have racism but I don’t know what your leanings are politically, but I’ve said this and I’ll stand up and say this again, is that the United States has more racism, more intolerance, more meanness, whatever you want to call it, than ever before in my lifetime. I’ve been alive 94 years. I have never, ever seen where the blacks hate the whites and the whites hate the blacks and the rich hate the poor and the poor hate the rich and the immigrants hate the citizens and the citizens hate the immigrants and the young hate the old. It seems like there’s nothing but hate in this world. I mean, I’m disappointed by what this world is coming to. We never had the problem we’re having today. The whole world, the world is not a nice place to live anymore. I mean, you have to take your shoes off to go on a plane. I mean, I remember getting on a plane and running down the concourse with five minutes to get on the plane and running down and get on the plane and it’s like no one trusts anybody anymore. I feel sorry for my grandchildren, I feel sorry for you. Because it’s not a safe place. You have, it seems like there’s no more ethics in the world, there’s no more love in the world. I’m not a racist, I have some of my best friends are different color. I can recall, the Guard the military probably had less factions than the civilian. I can recall in the Guard, I was in charge of housing up in Grayling, and they said we have a Chaplin coming tonight, Chaplin Hopkins, and they came about 2 o’clock in the morning, I said, “Well, have him come in and come with him to building 208, I have a room for him. I’ll be in that building, tell him to come in.” The next morning, I wake up and there’s this big, strong, Afro guy sitting on the floor doing pushups. And I get up and I said, “Good morning,” and he says, “Good morning.” I said, “I’m Chief Mabarak.” And he said, “I’m Chaplin Hopkins.” And I said, “It’s good to have you aboard.” I said, “We have breakfast at 6 o’clock. Do you want to go?” And he says, “Yep.” And I took him around, I showed him around. He became my best friend that I ever had, he became a Full-Bird Colonel in the state of Michigan and he and I used to hug each other, a lot of good people. You’ve heard of Alexander Jefferson, the Red Tail Tuskegee Airmen?</p>
<p class="BodyA">JW: I’ve heard of the Tuskegee Airmen.</p>
<p class="BodyA">RM: Okay, Tuskegee Airmen. Alexander Jefferson is a colonel, he was retired Air Force. He was a pilot in the Tuskegee Airman. He was born a month before me and joined a month before I did. He joined October ’42 and he was born in November ’22. We were real good friends, we have lunch together all the time and I’m going to tell you the statement that he told me.</p>
<p class="BodyA">JW: Okay.</p>
<p class="BodyA">RM: I’m going to tell you a statement he told me, “Raymond, you and I are brothers.” I said, “We are.” He lived on the east side of Detroit, I remember, the old cold days and all the other things and there was a lot of discrimination, naturally, and there still is discrimination. There was a lot of discrimination when I went to school. I couldn't move to Grosse Pointe until 1940 because there was discrimination. But, he said to me, “I’m happy that my family were slaves. Because if they weren't slaves, I’d still be in Kenya marching around a fire at night.” This is a black colonel, U.S. Air Force saying to me. He said it. Could I say it? No. He can say it, but that’s true. I’m sorry, sometimes I get off tangent.</p>
<p class="BodyA">JW: That’s okay.</p>
<p class="BodyA">RM: Question?</p>
<p class="BodyA">JW: That’s okay. So how do you think the city is doing today? So you said that you—</p>
<p class="BodyA">RM: I think the city is dong marvelous. I think they’ve made marvelous—you know, the street lights are on, they’re getting rid of the homes. Unfortunately, there’s something about destruction which is inherent in a lot of people. Windows being broken, trash -- I think Duggan is doing a great job because he’s a good communicator. He won with a write-in ballot, which is unheard of. He’s doing a good job. He has some good people. Do they make mistakes? Certainly, they make mistakes, but they’re trying. They’re tearing down homes. I think Detroit—it’s my opinion, I think there’s too much emphasis on Midtown and Downtown and not enough on the neighborhoods. And now they’re starting block clubs. I have friends of mine, who are white, who are starting block clubs, they’re getting people together. My personal opinion and you can turn that off-</p>
<p class="BodyA">JW: No we can leave it on, that’s fine. Unless you want me to turn it off?</p>
<p class="BodyA">RM: No, personally, I feel the biggest problem in Detroit is that there’s no fathers. There’s a lot of daddies. And there are children who are growing up without the proper guidance. You have a mother who has four or five children and she’s working. I grew up as a family unit. I had a mother and I had a father and they taught me and they educated me. My daughter has a child and they spend a lot of time on homework and education and having them get smart. To me, the problem is that you have too many people who don’t have anyone to love. And unfortunately, they get into the wrong crowd. You see it happen all the time. There’s a lot of good people in this world. There’s a lot of bad people in this world, doesn't matter if they’re black, white, red, brown, Ethiopian, or Irish or whatever you want. There’s a lot of bad people in this world, there always have been a lot of bad people in this world. But Detroit has a long way to go, until they get to where they don't destroy the homes that are there. What would it take for the neighbor who has a nice home to turn around and cut the grass next door to him? There’s something about breaking glass that seemed to be -- when we’d do our riot training at Fort Custer, I’d spend time on riot training. We used to practice mob control and gas mask drill and teargas. And they’d have a building and all the windows would be broken out. It seems like people get a big kick out of taking a rock and throwing it through the window, they like the sound. So you have these homes where all the windows are broken. Detroit has a long way to go but they’re working. You’ve got to get more people with more pride, that’s my own opinion.</p>
<p class="BodyA">JW: That’s okay. And then one thing I forgot to ask earlier. So, I’ve heard you use the term “riot” when you’re talking about ’67. But we’ve heard other people use terms like “civil disturbance,” or “uprising,” or “rebellion.” What do you think, how do you define what happened?</p>
<p class="BodyA">RM: A disturbance is a disturbance but a riot is an uncontrolled problem. That’s a riot, when you have, I think a disturbance is marching or protesting, a disturbance you're disturbed. Doesn't mean that men who are disturbed are angry. I think when you have a riot, people are angry. When you have a disturbance, you have irritated people. To me, disturbance doesn't mean destruction. Riot means destruction. Why is it, when you have these things happen like in Jefferson City, why do people take and loot a store of a person who’s worked his whole lifetime to develop a store and work it unless he's a mean person, why do you have to turn around and? My family grew up, not wealthy, we weren't poor but we always had-during the Depression, we ate. We never resorted to taking things that didn't belong to us. I feel sorry for teachers today who are subject to some awful things. I mean, if you want to talk to some teachers who ought to take and kill somebody when they get spit on and punched at. I mean, young people, the young ladies, young men who are trying to do their job and get spit on because they’re not trained. Because the biggest problem in this country today is the number of people who continue a pattern of welfare. You have three or four generations living in a house and all three or four generations are on aid. There is no reason that this country should have 42 million checks going out every month for aid. I have a relative who has a sister who has two children. And they had a daddy, they don’t have a father. And she lives in St. Clair Shores and her family lives in Grosse Pointe, her relations live in Grosse Pointe. And she didn't let her sister adopt them because that would take control away from her but they spend all their time with her sister. She works as a waitress, makes good money at a very, very successful restaurant. But the state of Michigan is paying her rent $850 a month but her children are on food stamps, she’s on ADC. What makes a person like that take advantage of a system? She doesn't need it. They don't need it. There’s so many people in this country that don’t need this aid, they become used to it. There’s someplace you have to turn around and to me, the education of some of this country is a failure in a way. Because not every child should want to go to college. There are so many trades people in this country that need trade. To me, the education system should be geared toward training people for life. Some people come out of high school, they don’t know how to write a check. They don’t know how to balance a book. They can’t multiply 11x12 or 12x12. They don't know. But who’s fault is that? Is it the government’s fault? No, it’s the people’s fault. If you don't train a child, they don't get trained. And unfortunately, to me they should have more trade schools and more places where people can learn a skill and they teach them different things. Except that it’s not happening. I don’t think it’ll ever happen.</p>
<p class="BodyA">JW: Do you have anything else you’d like to add today? </p>
<p class="BodyA">RM: Don’t get me turned on! No, I’m fine.</p>
<p class="BodyA">JW: Well, if you think of anything, feel free to contact us. Thank you so much for sitting down with me today.</p>
<p class="BodyA">RM: So, did you learn anything?</p>
JW: I think so!
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
Audio
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
47min 19sec
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Julia Westblade
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Ray Mabarak
Location
The location of the interview
Grosse Pointe, MI
Video
A link to the video
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/tZo3aaYBzVI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ray Marbarak, August 12th, 2016
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview, Mabarak discusses his experience growing up on the east side and eventually joining in the military. He discusses National Guard training and conditions during ’67 and also what he witnessed in Recorder’s Court. He gives his opinion on the issues in the city and the prospects for the future of Detroit.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Detroit Historical Society
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
12/02/2016
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio/WAV
Language
A language of the resource
en-US
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Oral History
1943 Detroit Race Riots
1967 riot—Detroit—Michigan
82nd Airborne Division-US Army
General Throckmorton
Michigan National Guard
Recorder's Court - Detroit
United States Air Force
-
https://detroit1967.detroithistorical.org/files/original/f4fd5cfd3fbe7ba3821ca49527dfa9ef.jpg
a1af5fc6830e3cb021c88546b07e18ed
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Detroit 67: Looking Back to Move Forward
Subject
The topic of the resource
Stories gathered to commemorate the summer of 1967 in Detroit.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Detroit Historical Society
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Language
A language of the resource
en-us
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
10/20/2019
Oral History
An audio or video resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Narrator/Interviewee's Name
The current first and last name of the person speaking or being interviewed.
Berl Falbaum
Brief Biography
A short biography of the Interviewee
Berl Falbaum was born in Germany and spent the first ten years of his life living in Shanghai, China. His family then came to the United States where they made Detroit their home. Felbaum worked for the <i> Detroit News</i>, covering Mayor Cavanagh's office during the events of July 1967.
Interviewer's Name
The first and last name of the interviewer.
William Winkel
Date
The date of the interview in MM/DD/YYYY format.
04/21/2016
Interview Length
The total length of the interview in HH:MM:SS format.
00:28:24
Transcriptionist
The first and last name of the transcriptionist.
Julie Vandenbloom
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p> WW: Hello, my name is William Winkel. Today is April 21, 2016. This is the interview of Berl Falbaum for the 1967 Oral History Project. Thank you very much for sitting down with me today.</p>
<p>BF: My pleasure. Thank you for being here.</p>
<p>WW: Can you please tell me, where and when were you born?</p>
<p>BF: I was born in Berlin, Germany, in October 8, 1938.</p>
<p>WW: When did you come to the United States?</p>
<p>BF: Well, it was during the rise of Hitler – of course, he's already been in power – we escaped from Nazi Germany in August of '39, and escaped to Shanghai, China, where twenty thousand Jews escaped to. And I spent the first ten years of my life in Shanghai.</p>
<p>WW: What brought your family to Detroit?</p>
<p>BF: Well, after the war, different countries were starting to pick up refugees, and this country – the United States opened its borders, and we applied, and fortunately got accepted, and we came to Detroit, landing first in San Francisco, in August of '48.</p>
<p>WW: Who came to Detroit with you?</p>
<p>BF: Just my parents. I have no siblings.</p>
<p>WW: Okay. What was your first experience in Detroit? What was your first impression?</p>
<p>BF: Well, my first impression was the plentiful nature of the United States, given that we were poor – extremely poor – in Shanghai, war-torn, you know, and drug-infested, and war-torn – and so the plentiful nature of food was my first impression. And we moved into what is now called Rosa Parks Boulevard – it was Twelfth Street at the time – and I was enrolled in the fourth grade. But those were my impressions of – you know, first of all we had freedom, we could move around unlike in Shanghai, and we had, you know, enough food, and so forth.</p>
<p>WW: The time when you moved into Twelfth Street area – that was still predominantly Jewish, correct?</p>
<p>BF: No – not at the – well – yes and no. It was changing. There's a history in Detroit, as you know, probably maybe even better than I do, of movement of Jews from Hastings, way down south in Detroit, to Twelfth Street, then Dexter, then Seven Mile and Shafer, then Oak Park. And at the time we moved into Twelfth Street, that neighborhood was already dramatically changing.</p>
<p>WW: So how much time did you spend in the Twelfth Street area growing up?</p>
<p>BF: Fourth grade, I'm going to say, until the ninth or tenth grade, and we moved to Dexter. Dexter, roughly south of Davison – about a mile south of Davison – and I went to Central High School.</p>
<p>At Twelfth Street I went to Crossman Elementary, which is closed – it's boarded up, but it's still there – then I went to Hutchins Intermediate – we called it intermediate, which is middle school, and that's still there and active – and then I went to Central High School, which is still active – when I went – moved to Dexter.</p>
<p>WW: What were your experiences growing up in the city, especially in an interracial area?</p>
<p>BF: Well, I had, you know, very good experiences. I moved – always grew up in interracial atmosphere, which, of course, is very positive in terms of your education and interrelationships. So I had, you know, extremely good relationships growing up there. I wish it had stayed interracial, you know, again the white flight caused it to be almost predominantly, if not exclusively, a black community, and that's bad on the other side, so to speak. The interrelationship aspect would have been better, so – we already experienced the white flight from Twelfth Street, then Dexter and Seven Mile and Shafer.</p>
<p>WW: Growing up, what did your parents do for a living after they moved to the city?</p>
<p>BF: Well, my dad was a tailor. And he was a tailor in Germany, he was a tailor in Shanghai. He worked in a variety of shops. And my mother became a domestic to help out, because we were obviously extremely poor.</p>
<p>WW: How did growing up in a poor neighborhood affect you?</p>
<p>BF: Well, it affected me in a sense that I – I am not at all materialistic, and I raised my family on having what it needs – and I think that's good. One thing that I notice is the materialism of this country, you know – always see a new car – and one of the things that always – hasn't left me – is now we have cars which warm your seats. I mean, that's sort of indicative of my philosophy. You know, I wouldn't have thought of that in a million years. I'm a utilitarian kind of guy, you know, I have a – I never bought a new car – and I think that's because of my background. I've always bought a used car. I don't care the car it is, just gets me from A to B. So that's how my background impacted me, you know. I buy my clothes at thrifty stores – not because I don't want to spend the money – I don't see the point. And you know, I'd be glad – I like spending money for travel – so I think that's basically because of my background. You know, I use paper, I cut it in half, and use scraps of paper, and I think that's not because I'm cheap – I'm delighted to spend money, you know, on travel – but materialistically, I had a tremendous – that had a tremendous impact on me.</p>
<p>WW: Growing up in the 1950s, did you notice any tension growing in the city?</p>
<p>BF: Oh yes, yes, yeah. There was a lot of tension in the schools. I – you know – you could feel the tension between the blacks and whites – you know – there – again, discrimination they suffered, and the white flight caused a lot of problems, you know, and I understand that now, of course, and sympathetic to it. So there were a lot of tensions already in school, between the races, you know, and so to answer your question, yes. I noticed it. Yeah.</p>
<p>WW: Do you remember any particular instances where it was right in front of you?</p>
<p>BF: Yeah, yeah. I was a paper boy, and, you know, I'd be confronted with blacks who – I had good relationships, and I liked interrelationships, but – there were these confrontations from time to time, and especially with young kids, you know – so you'd have confrontations in school, on the streets. You know, I think they understood my view too, and so to answer your question, overall, yes. There were confrontations in school between blacks and whites. There were confrontations on the streets. I understood it, as much as a fifteen, sixteen year old, you know, understood. Of course I understood it better as I grew older.</p>
<p>WW: Moving into the 1960s, what year did you graduate from high school?</p>
<p>BF: From high school? January '57, and I went to Wayne State University, and I graduated from Wayne State in the summer of '61, because I was already hired by the <i> News</i> as a reporter full-time before I finished, and so I finished at night.</p>
<p>WW: What work did you do for the <i>Detroit News</i>?</p>
<p>BF: I started out as – where everybody starts out – you do a variety of beats. I went to the police beat, where you cover crime, and then you went to general assignment, meaning you do soup to nuts, you do a little of everything, and in '65 I was sent over to City Hall to cover politics.</p>
<p>WW: When you were covering the police, did you notice any – did you cover the Big Four at all?</p>
<p>BF: Big Four?</p>
<p>WW: The police tactic used in the early 1960s.</p>
<p>BF: I don't remember it by that name. What you do – what I did at the police beat is – there's – it's closed now, it closed many years ago – but there's an office that the press has in police headquarters. At the time it was manned by three – well, three newspapers – one died quickly – the <i>News</i>, <i>Free Press</i>, and the <i>Times</i>, and you covered murder from that desk. And you went to a different office in that building – you never left the building. And you'd call around to suburban bureaus to see what was going on every few hours. You had, you know, hundreds of phone calls to make. So when you say did you cover the Big Four, there was a very controversial program called STRESS [Stop The Robberies, Enjoy Safe Streets.</p>
<p>WW: Yeah, that was later on.</p>
<p>BF: That was later on. So the answer is, I didn't cover it as such. I covered the crime, and so forth. I didn't really cover the politics of the crime – I covered the crime.</p>
<p>WW: Okay.</p>
<p>BF: I – you know, if there's a murder I'd go cover that. Don't go – you cover it from your office. And if there's a good story – meaning a terrible story – required a reporter on scene, that was done out of the office.</p>
<p>WW: Okay. Was moving from crime – the police department to City Hall a promotion, or -</p>
<p>BF: Yeah.</p>
<p>WW: Was it just a different assignment?</p>
<p>BF: Well, a different assignment. Those who stayed with the police would say it's a different – I know I didn't like doing that. It was a good learning process, but I don't – I love politics. So next I went on general assignment – there were people on police beat which have been there for thirty years. And so they would say that's heaven to them, but it wasn't my kind of – similarly, I didn't want to cover sports, but – I went to general assignment, which you cover everything, and I did that for about three-four years, and then I went over to City Hall.</p>
<p>WW: So you were covering City Hall in 1967, correct?</p>
<p>BF: I started in '65 at City Hall and yes, I was at City Hall in '67 when the riot broke out July 23, 1967.</p>
<p>WW: Where were you living in 1967?</p>
<p>BF: I was just inside the border of Detroit, on Schoolcraft and Telegraph – the other side of Telegraph. I was on the east side of Telegraph and the other side was where Redford Township. And we were on the Detroit border. Matter of fact Sunday I was sitting on my porch – well, we – a little step, it wasn't a porch – when I heard on the radio, the riot, and I said to my wife I've got to go downtown and go to work. She said, "You're not leaving the family for a riot.” I said yes I am.</p>
<p>WW: What was the atmosphere going in – driving through the city and then getting to City Hall?</p>
<p>BF: Well, at the time, I didn't encounter any police or military yet. It was just broke out. So I didn't go to City Hall, I went to the main office. We had an office in City Hall where you covered the politics, you never went to it, but I knew right away I'd go back to the city room and see what my assignment would be. But I didn't encounter anything on the streets. And I didn't see anything because I didn't go into the – driving down, I didn't pass the 12<sup>th</sup> Street – devastated area.</p>
<p>WW: Can you share some of your experiences you had during that week?</p>
<p>BF: Sure. In '65 I [unintelligible], by '67 I think I was head or chief of the bureau and my job was to cover the mayor. So what I did, was I just attached myself to the mayor, meaning wherever he went, I went. Whatever meetings and press conference I'd cover. And so, the answer is yes, one of the pictures I gave to – uh – what's his -</p>
<p>WW: Joel.</p>
<p>BF: Joel is, I have a picture of the mayor and Senator Philip Hart, democrat from – U.S. Senator, from Michigan. They were touring the area, and I have a picture – I'm behind them, and I gave him that photo, and we toured – he toured, I followed, and took notes – you know, what they were saying, and so forth. So that was my major assignment, and I covered the press conference between Mayor Cavanagh, Governor Romney, who came in of course, George Romney. Cyrus Vance, who was sent in from Lyndon Johnson, I think he was Secretary of State at the time was -</p>
<p>WW: Defense.</p>
<p>BF: Huh?</p>
<p>WW: He had stepped down as Secretary of Defense.</p>
<p>BF: Yeah, okay. He came in as the federal representative, and so I covered those. So I didn't really cover the riot itself, the violence, and so forth. I did go by myself once back to tour it – and a fellow I knew, who I covered as a community activist, his name was Joe Williams – I see him – who suggested I leave – he said it wasn't safe for me to be alone, walking, you know, in the streets. So I didn't cover the actual devastation, and the fighting, and the looting, and the violence. I covered the political side of it.</p>
<p>WW: Going – so you said you were part of the meetings and you were Mayor Cavanagh's shadow. Can you speak to the disagreements he had with Governor Romney, and especially President Johnson?</p>
<p>BF: Yes. I came across – and I gave it to Joel – by accident I came across an oral history that Cavanagh did for the Lyndon Johnson library in the 70's. They were doing oral histories for anybody that had a relationship with Lyndon Johnson. So they did Cavanagh. Now they weren't focused specifically on the riot, but as a result, about ten of those hundred pages deal with the riot. And he talks about the friction and the – yes, there was a lot of friction. One, you know, pure political, without egos – you know, Romney feeling that he's the governor of the state, and he perhaps should take the lead – Cavanagh feeling “this is my city, and I'm the chief executive officer.” And then you had political issues with, should you have the federal troops – is it too early to come in – what are the politics of it. So the federal government was, according to Cavanagh, and I tend to agree with him – is they were a little slow to react.</p>
<p>Some of it may have been based on waiting for a good assessment of the situation, or some of it may have been politics. I'm sure it was a combination of both.</p>
<p>So there's tremendous friction between Cavanagh and the powers to be, of when to send in the troops, and how, you know, and how quickly, and Cavanagh was of the opinion – send them right away. And that was the major disagreement. There were, you know, little ego issues between, that always happens, who conducts the press conference, and who's first, and all that.</p>
<p>WW: Can you speak to how Cavanagh himself handled the situation?</p>
<p>BF: I had covered Cavanagh, by that time, about four – three-four years. And what I noticed, is that this took a tremendous personal toll on Cavanagh. And the reason is, here was a mayor who was elected at, I think thirty-one or thirty-two years old, in '61 – the youngest mayor ever elected to the city until, I think, Kilpatrick came along – and he got national headlines. He was on the covers of major magazines for doing all the right things in Detroit. Integrating the police department, you know, being responsive to discrimination against blacks. He was doing everything right. He became president of the U.S. Conference of Mayors, and the National League of Cities, at the same time. Unheard of. He was a national figure. Matter a fact, a lot of people already started talking to him as a presidential candidate somewhere along the line. [coughs] – excuse me.</p>
<p>This took a personal toll. Basically, I've done everything right, and he ended up having not just a riot, but the worst riot in the country. I think forty-three died. And he had the worst fatality record, and that was the irony of it. And I don't think I saw him at ease - and I don't mean at ease, sitting back and just relaxing – but just at ease, throughout those days, and I don't think I ever saw a smile on his face for anything. I remember him coming back to the office, about twelve, one o'clock in the morning, and our office – not just the News, but the Free Press – was right down the hall. But I was the only one there. So he walked into his office and I walked in – he let me come in – we sat down. It wasn't to do a story, just to talk. And I could feel the pain. I could feel the pain. You know, we had a drink – he had a little bar in the back – and I could feel the pain. I don't think I ever saw him smile after the – for a long time after that.</p>
<p>WW: Wow. Can you speak to the time following the riots? So, the gradual – with the Cyrus Vance taking over – General Throckmorton taking over the National Guard, and federalizing the troops?</p>
<p>BF: I don't remember a lot of that. Only because the years have gone by. But the next steps that I recall is, after everything calmed down again, Cavanagh was instrumental, if not the lead character in creating New Detroit, which was – the first president, if I recall, was Joe Watson, you know, from the Hudson department stores, and the – the insistence of New Detroit that members could only be the heads of organizations – you know, staff people couldn't come – which was the right thing, because these are people making the decisions, and you don't have to worry about staff. And I don't remember some of what you're referring to, I don't think I could speak to it, 'cause I don't recall that. Fifty years. [laughter]</p>
<p>And he started the so-called reconstruction. The problem was, for him, his political strength has been ebbed, dramatically. One, you had the riot. He, unfortunately, had a lot of other political issues which had sapped his strength. Some of his own making. He had – he challenged Soapy Williams for the primary nomination for U.S. Senate – which hurt him badly, because the democrats felt it was Soapy Williams' turn – he should wait - but the party was very angry at him for challenging Soapy Williams. And he – he lost. And that sapped his political capitol. And then he had a messy – it's not of his own making, it's just one of those things – he had a terrible, messy personal divorce that became highly public, and messy, and so that sapped him. So unfortunately, a lot of things I think he could have and would have achieved, he couldn't because of – you know, he had all these other issues to deal with.</p>
<p>WW: How long did you stay in the city after 1967?</p>
<p>BF: Well, I – he did not run again in 1970 - funny story, how I learned that – but that's not – too long for you to tape – it's a cute story but it's a long one.</p>
<p>WW: Feel free to tell it.</p>
<p>BF: Well he and I had a good relationship, so that when he would announce something major, like a budget, he'd give it to me three-four days in advance, so I could study it. I couldn't use it until he's ready – so come his announcement, whether he's going to run for a third term – it was on a Tuesday he was going to announce, so I asked him if I could have his decision on the weekend, so I could write all the stories. He said “no, I can't give you this one.” And I said don't you trust me? He said “It's not that, I just [unintelligible].”</p>
<p>So I negotiated with him, that if I came to the Manoogian mansion, say, at three in the morning, that day – just so I have time to write, 'cause we're on deadline. So he agreed to that. So I drove done to the Manoogian mansion at three in the morning, and security opened it up and said “there you are,” and I get ready to write, and I take out a piece of paper, and it said something like “I will run again.” And just before I start, I see another piece of paper, which says “I will not run again.” [laughter]</p>
<p>So I said which is it? They said “I don't know!” I said, wake him up! “Yeah, we're going to wake up the mayor at two in the morning, or three in the morning.” I had to wait. He came down about seven o'clock with a big smile on his face. “So how's it going?” But I couldn't write anything - [laughter] – it was his practical joke.</p>
<p>So he didn't run again, and I covered Roman Gribbs, who just passed away, about two weeks ago, at 92, I believe – or 90, 92, I think he was 90 – and Nick Hood, who I covered, died about a week later at 92. And I covered him for a year. Gribbs – and then I quit, and went into Bill Milliken's office as administrative aide to Lieutenant Governor James Brickley who has passed away. So, to answer your question, I left the News in '70.</p>
<p>WW: And when you left the News, did you move to Lansing?</p>
<p>BF: I didn't move, but -</p>
<p>WW: Oh.</p>
<p>BF: Basically, my job was – we should have moved – I commuted almost daily, and that was a terrible – how I did that for four years, I don't know. We knew it was a political appointment and we didn't want to buy a house there and come back – terrible mistake. It was awful. Especially in the winters, you know – the drive. And we didn't have the kind of full expressways we have now, and it was awful – but. So I worked in Lansing for four years.</p>
<p>WW: When did your family leave the city? When did they move out, I mean?</p>
<p>BF: I think I want to say – Phil? - I want to say – I know that we left before Gribbs was - Gribbs was elected – because he offered me to become press secretary, and I was living in Oak Park, so I couldn't take it then – so that's one reason I took the Milliken job. Phil?</p>
<p>Woman's voice: Yeah?</p>
<p>BF: When did we move to Oak Park?</p>
<p>Woman's voice: I can't hear you. What?</p>
<p>BF: When did we move to Oak Park?</p>
<p>Woman's voice: Oh, Julie was three. So, forty-eight years ago -</p>
<p>BF: So '67. So the year must have been -</p>
<p>Woman's voice: '67.</p>
<p>BF: So one month later, before the riot, so I didn't know that.</p>
<p>WW: So your – you moved out before the riot happened?</p>
<p>BF: I guess -</p>
<p>Woman's voice: Wait a minute, no no -</p>
<p>BF: You said June of '67?</p>
<p>Woman's voice: No – I said Julie was – no – I remember -</p>
<p>BF: '65?</p>
<p>Woman's voice: I remember, in the apartment in Detroit, you were called down – the riots broke out when we were in Detroit. We moved in October when Julie was past three and a half.</p>
<p>BF: So '65. Yeah. So we were out -</p>
<p>Woman's voice: She was born in '64. She was born in '64 -</p>
<p>WW: So October of 1967?</p>
<p>BF: That's when -</p>
<p>Woman's voice: She was born in June of '64 -</p>
<p>BF: So she was three. I said '67.</p>
<p>Woman's voice: But we were still living in – because we moved to Oak Park in June – in October of '67.</p>
<p>WW: Okay. Why did you move? Did you move – were you planning on moving ahead of time?</p>
<p>BF: Schools -</p>
<p>Woman's voice: We were ready to buy a house. [laughter]</p>
<p>BF: You mean, we – why we moved to Oak Park?</p>
<p>WW: Yeah.</p>
<p>BF: Primarily school system. Yeah.</p>
<p>WW: Okay.</p>
<p>BF: Primarily school system.</p>
<p>Woman's voice: At that time -</p>
<p>BF: Oak Park at the top school system in the country – in the state, I believe -</p>
<p>WW: Okay -</p>
<p>Woman's voice: Well -</p>
<p>BF: Close to it.</p>
<p>Woman's voice: It was a very, very good school system.</p>
<p>BF: It was one of the best in the state.</p>
<p>Woman's voice: And -</p>
<p>BF: Yeah, so -</p>
<p>Woman's voice: Yeah.</p>
<p>WW: What are your impressions going back to the city now? Like seeing how – how do you believe the riot has affected the city? You talked about how it sapped the strength of Mayor Cavanagh -</p>
<p>BF: It sapped the strength of Mayor Cavanagh, and if caused – first of all, it accelerated white flight. It already began, with the building of expressways and shopping centers in the suburbs, so that made it easier for – unfortunately, for whites to leave the city, but the riot accelerated it. And so it sapped its – not only bad for the integration process, but it sapped its economic strength. Businesses moving out and white residents moving out. So I think it had terribly detrimental impact from that standpoint.</p>
<p>Then along came Coleman Young. And I happen to be an admirer of Coleman Young. But I also understood the tension he was creating, and I think unfairly – he was unfairly judged, with his comment about Eight Mile Road, which you've probably come across in your research. I think it was a bum rap – I don't think he meant “go rob the white people in the suburbs.” I think he meant there was a new sheriff in town, you know – And I – I happen to be a big admirer of Coleman Young – read his – couple biographies and I think he was a great hero, frankly – political hero in this country – taking on the unAmerican committee in Washington, and his union activities, and his army activities. But he – but – the perception of white people was that he didn't like white people, and so they left – which, again, I think was wrong, and unfair to Coleman Young and the city.</p>
<p>So there were a lot of issues which accelerated – I don't know, I don't think the riot was the beginning of it – I think the expressways and the shopping centers, things, started – the Davison Expressway, I think was the first one in the country. That helped – they went east/west, not north/south – but once you went north/south, it made it even quicker.</p>
<p>So I think that – the riot, obviously, accelerated the white flight, then came up wrong Coleman – who, Mayor Young, who I think, like I say, got a bum rap from the white community, especially the conservatives out in the suburbs, and I thought that was terribly unfair to him, and the city.</p>
<p>WW: You spoke about – you spoke about earlier, how it was unfortunate that your neighborhood in 12<sup>th</sup> Street became - went from being integrated to all black. How do you see – well, do you see that hampering the metropolitan Detroit now, given that the suburbs are primarily white and the city is primarily black?</p>
<p>BF: Yeah, I think so. Again, I – I'm a supporter of integrated – you know, I understand the value of living in an integrated, you know, community. And I think it – the segregation, if you will, between the communities now, I don't think helps either side. I don't know if we'll ever see that again, you know -</p>
<p>WW: The integration?</p>
<p>BF: In the city – in the city. I don't know – I don't know if we'll see that again. I think we see it somewhat in Southfield, I'm not an expert on that – you're much more – and we have it here in this community, you know. My subdivision now, taking a census, it's wonderful. I don't know if we're fifty/fifty now – I don't know. But it's certainly much more integrated than when I moved here thirty-five years ago – which is good!</p>
<p>And my kids went to integrated schools, and I thought they, you know, they – a lot of value in that, and made them better people, but I don't think – I don't see Detroit becoming a vibrant, integrated city along those lines again. Matter of fact, there seem to be a lot of complaints – I heard it just the other day. I heard a speaker on - on Detroit. That as well as Detroit and Midtown is doing, there seem to be a lot of complaints that the entrepreneurs are all white, and that the population of downtown is white, and not integrated. That they're young people, yes, but they're all white people. By the way, I don't know that to be true, 'cause I don't study it. I've heard those complaints. So I don't think – to answer your question, yes, I think there's tremendous value in the comprehensive integrated community.</p>
<p>WW: Is there anything else you'd like to share?</p>
<p>BF: No, you've done a good job. You've worn me out!</p>
<p>WW: Thank you very much for sitting down with me today.</p>
<p>BF: My pleasure, my pleasure. </p>
Search Terms
Topics mentioned in the story which may be of larger social interest. Put general search terms in plural form (e.g. horses not horse). All items should have: "1967 riots, riots, interviews, oral history (or written history)". Some possible additional terms might be: "Detroit Police Department, police officers, Detroit Fire Department, firefighters, mayors, Clairmount Street, 12th Street, looting".
Jewish Refugees, Shanghai, China
1967 riot - Detroit - Michigan
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
Audio
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
William Winkel
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Berl Falbaum
Video
A link to the video
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/eWqUmsDMJ18" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Berl Falbaum, April 21st, 2016
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview, Falbaum discusses his impressions when he first moved to Detroit, as well as his work covering Mayor Cavanagh's office during the summer of 1967.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Detroit Historical Society
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
06/07/2016
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio/WAV
Language
A language of the resource
en-US
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
|3|0.0000000|0.0000000|osm
Schoolcraft and Telegraph
Redford Township
1967 riot—Detroit—Michigan
Detroit Community Members
Detroit News
General Throckmorton
Governor George Romney
Jewish Community
Mayor Coleman Young
Mayor Jerome Cavanagh
Mayor Roman Gribbs
New Detroit
Shanghai
STRESS
Twelfth Street
-
https://detroit1967.detroithistorical.org/files/original/def3486023f4a605bdc7b533d95c7331.jpg
a1af5fc6830e3cb021c88546b07e18ed
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Detroit 67: Looking Back to Move Forward
Subject
The topic of the resource
Stories gathered to commemorate the summer of 1967 in Detroit.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Detroit Historical Society
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Language
A language of the resource
en-us
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
10/20/2019
Written Story
A written account or story submitted by an individual.
Text
Any textual data included in the document
One morning in the summer of 1967, Shirley, my wife, and I had driven our daughters Doreen and Cheryl to a summer Girl Scout Camp at Metamora, which is about 30 miles North of Detroit. While at the camp, we met two of our neighbors who likewise had driven their daughter up to the camp. The 4 of us decided to stop at a bar on the way home and have a nice cold beer.
While at the bar, I noticed a TV was on, and it was showing pictures like a city burning. I asked the bartender while pointing at the TV what was going on – He stated that the city of Detroit was burning – he further stated that the Blacks were rioting – I then took a closer look and then confirmed to myself it was Detroit. Returning home and pulling up my driveway, I could hear my telephone ringing off the hook. I raced into the house and answered the phone – my boss was on the line and told me to get into work immediately that the blacks were rioting.
I quickly dressed for work, put my shotgun into the trunk of my car and drove to the Police Headquarters where I worked at that time. I was then put on active duty. While on stand-by in the station room I watched two civilians walk into the room. One was General Throckmorten - He spoke with the Commissioner who then walked to a large map of the city and the General asked him to point out the trouble spots. The Commissioner with a pointer in his hand placed it over the map and shakenly said “All over the city”. Throckmorten walked over to a telephone and dialed several numbers and then said “Throckmorten here, SEND IN THE 82ND AIRBORNE DIVISION”. He then hung up the phone. Approximately four hours later, the 82nd Division arrived by truck from Selfridge Airbase to Police Headquarters. During the time they arrived, prisoners in the County Jail—which was across the street from Police Headquarters—were rioting. At that time the 82nd airborne troops, rifles with bayonets attached, entered the County Jail, and within five minutes there was complete silence.
The 82nd Division, along with the Michigan State Police and the Detroit Police patrolled the city and within 48 hours, things were back to normal. During this time there were hundreds of black males arrested for rioting and with no room to put them, the city placed a large number of city busses on Belle Island. All prisoners from that day on were transferred to those buses, handcuffed to their seats. They were fed 3 bologna sandwiches a day for the duration of the riot.
After 4 days we were allowed to go home.
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
email message
Submitter's Name
The first and last name of the submitter.
John Kastner
Submission Date
The date the story was submitted in MM/DD/YYYY format.
3/30/2015
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
John Kastner
Description
An account of the resource
John Kastner dropped his daughters off at summer camp, to return to a city on fire in July, 1967.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Detroit Historical Society
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
7/13/2015
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Text
Language
A language of the resource
en-US
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Written Story
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
||||osm
Detroit Police Headquarters; Detroit, Michigan
1967 riot—Detroit—Michigan
82nd Airborne Division-US Army
Detroit Police Department
General Throckmorton
Michigan National Guard
Selfridge Air Force Base