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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Detroit 67: Looking Back to Move Forward
Subject
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Stories gathered to commemorate the summer of 1967 in Detroit.
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
Rights
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Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Language
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en-us
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
10/20/2019
Oral History
An audio or video resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Video
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<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/tp5s7jW3e-Y" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Narrator/Interviewee's Name
The current first and last name of the person speaking or being interviewed.
Oliver Cole
Brief Biography
A short biography of the Interviewee
Oliver Cole was born in 1951 in Kentucky and moved to Detroit in 1965 where he has lived ever since. He attended Cass Tech.
Interviewer's Name
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Julia Westblade
Interview Place
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Detroit, MI
Date
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04/21/2017
Interview Length
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00:40:14
Transcriptionist
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Daniel Weed
Julia Westblade
Transcription Date
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11/02/2018
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
JW: Hello today is April 21, 2017. My name is Julia Westblade. We’re here in Detroit, Michigan, and I am sitting down with-</p>
<p>
OC: Oliver Cole.
</p>
<p>
JW: Thank you so much for sitting down with me today. Can you start by telling me where and when you were born?
</p>
<p>
OC: I was born in 1951 in Henderson, Kentucky.
</p>
<p>
JW: Alright and when did you or your family move up to Detroit?
</p>
<p>
OC: We came to Detroit July 1, 1965.
</p>
<p>
JW: Alright and what brought you to Detroit?
</p>
<p>
OC: Came with my mom, had nowhere else to go.
</p>
<p>
JW: Why did your mom come up to Detroit?
</p>
<p>
OC: She was looking for different work. She had a brother that lived here, so that made it easier for her to transition.
</p>
<p>
JW: And what were your initial impressions of the city –
</p>
<p>
OC: I’m sorry?
</p>
<p>
JW: What were your impressions of the city moving up here as a young teenager?
</p>
<p>
OC: Holy smokes. Scared to death. From coming from a small town, never saw this many people in one place, one time. Stunned and shocked. At that time, Detroit was the fourth largest city in the United States, so there was a lot of people. Lot of – and had no idea a place like that could be this big- coming from where I came.
</p>
<p>
JW: When you first moved up in 1965, what neighborhood did you go to?
</p>
<p>
OC: We were staying with my uncle who lived out on Baylor Street, which is south of Six Mile and Puritan between- Baylor Street between Six Mile and Puritan.
</p>
<p>
JW: Did you stay there for a while?
</p>
<p>
OC: Stayed there from July 1 until almost the start of the school year, which would’ve been fall of 1965. Because I think I went to Webber the first year, finished up at Webber.
</p>
<p>
JW: Where did you go from there?
</p>
<p>
OC: Cass. Cass Tech. I think. I started at Cass Tech. Went to Webber in 1965. Let’s see I was 15 when I got here, 15-16. Probably started at Cass at 16.
</p>
<p>
JW: And then when you and your mom moved out from your uncle’s house, did you stay in that neighborhood?
</p>
<p>
OC: No, we stayed in – that’s where we came. Moved to Scotten. 6064 Scotten, I’ll never forget it.
</p>
<p>
JW: [Laughs] And what was that neighborhood like?
</p>
<p>
OC: That neighborhood was a nice neighborhood. I won’t say upper-middle class. It was renting. It had a lot of two-family rental homes: wooden frame homes, a couple of brick homes. West side of Detroit, north of McGraw, west of Grand River, south of Tireman. Just a neighborhood.
</p>
<p>
JW: Was it an integrated neighborhood?
</p>
<p>
OC: I beg your pardon?
</p>
<p>
JW: Was it an integrated neighborhood?
</p>
<p>
OC: I’m trying to think. Probably. Didn’t really pay- the racial makeup of the city at that time, I didn’t really pay that much attention to it. No. Because on Tireman, this was- you’ve got to remember, this was before, what freeway is that over there? 96? This was before 96 even was built. So, I had a paper route along Tireman Avenue and the Boulevard. So, that was quote, unquote “a well-to-do neighborhood.” So, it was quite- I think it was integrated pretty good back then.
</p>
<p>
JW: Did you primarily stay in that neighborhood, or did you like to go around the city?
</p>
<p>
OC: We went everywhere. From that neighborhood, we used to ride our bikes out to Rouge Park. It seemed like it would take forever to get down there. I used to take the- what was it- the Hamilton bus. It used to go from – picked it up on Lodge Freeway, would go south to Downtown. I never knew how far north it went because I never took anything further on it. But then I found out the Hamilton bus actually went from the old bus depot downtown all the way out to Northland. So, it was a pretty twisting, turning route that it took. Interesting route when you looked at it on a map.
</p>
<p>
JW: As you were moving around the city, did you notice any tension in the city?
</p>
<p>
OC: Uh-uh. The only tension was that the Tigers had just got eliminated from contention. Didn’t make the playoffs, or I don’t know what happened that year, ’67. They were up and coming, but they didn’t quite make it. I think that’s what the focus on – remember I’m 16 or 17 years old – 16 years old at that time. I’m just getting out.
</p>
<p>
JW: So, you said you moved here with your mom. Do you have any siblings?
</p>
<p>
OC: Yes, a younger brother came. I came here in the summer. He came here at the end of summer. So, we both started school at Webber Junior High, which was on Tireman in the – we were walking distance from where we lived.
</p>
<p>
JW: What kind of profession did your mom have?
</p>
<p>
OC: She worked. First she worked for the telephone company. She was an operator. Then she got a job as a receptionist, which I don’t know what she did, at Herman Kiefer [Hospital].
</p>
<p>
JW: So then, going into the summer of 1967, so you’re about 17 years old. What do you remember from that summer?
</p>
<p>
OC: Actually, I think I was 16. Because 17 would- 1951 to 1967- yeah 16.
Don’t remember much. I mean I cannot remember like - First of all, I never went down on Twelfth Street, which was only like four blocks, because there was always a stigma about, “Don’t go on Twelfth Street.” So, I never went on Twelfth Street.
</p>
<p>
JW: What do you think made – why was there that stigma?
</p>
<p>
OC: Oh well, shoot! There was always something going on, on Twelfth Street. Nothing that a 16-year-old at that time in Detroit should ever be involved in. I wasn’t in any kind of illegal gambling, didn’t have any need for prostitutes, couldn’t buy liquor, I didn’t shop that much, so there was no reason for me to be going on Twelfth Street. Plus, you were told not to go on Twelfth Street, so just didn’t go on Twelfth Street.
</p>
<p>
JW: So, where – how did you first hear about what was going on, on the week of July 23?
</p>
<p>
OC: Well, you could see it and feel it. You knew something was going on because so many police cars were around. Then, you heard the news reports about the Algiers Motel on Virginia Park. You knew there was something going on, but information didn’t get out until way later on, you found out, “Oh this is what happened.” So, that was one thing. Then, you find out it really happened from a blind pig raid on Twelfth and Collingwood [Clairmount], which was a good distance from where we were, about a mile. But, word- there’s no social media, there’s no internet, and there was no cell-phones, but this information spread quickly across the city. I have no idea how so many people got wind of it so quickly.
</br>
[pointing outside] There goes a little trolley.
</p>
<p>
JW: So, what do you remember from that week?
</p>
<p>
OC: I’m trying to think what date it is? I think it started on a Thursday?
</p>
<p>
JW: It started on a Sunday.
</p>
<p>
OC: Sunday, okay. That’s right; that explains a lot. Obviously, it must have started Sunday, early Sunday morning. I think we went to church which was around the corner from us. So, the news hadn’t hit us yet, we hadn’t see anything. I think the first time you get notice of something, “Oh, there’s a house on fire.” Then its – because you’re looking at smoke, “Oh, there’s a lot of houses on fire. Wow, the whole strip is on fire.” So, your curiosity wants to make you go and investigate. That’s when you find out, “Oh this is something – something else going on.” Fire trucks are constantly going, night and day. Then the police are going constantly, night and day. You don’t realize what’s happening because at 16 years old, not this – a 16-year-old today would be on social media. They’d have Twitter, they’d have Snapchat, all these things. They’d be in communication a lot faster, a lot sooner, than we were at 16 at that age. I didn’t have a phone. My mom had a phone. So, there was nobody for me to call, and nobody to call me. Probably, she probably knew more than what I did – I hope she did, and probably just kept it from me. Just said, “You don’t need to know.”
</p>
<p>
JW: So, when you first saw the smoke and everything, did you go investigate or did you stay in your house?
</p>
<p>
OC: Oh, no, no no. I’d say, “What’s happening over there?” “Nothing. [Laughs] Stay here.” You got to remember, a 16-year-old boy, man, whatever you want to call it at that age and that era in Detroit would have done exactly what his parents told him to do. It wouldn’t be like today where you tell him don’t do something, “Okay I’m going.” And, you’re talking about a single woman raising kids, totally different then than it is now.
</p>
<p>
JW: So, did your mom and your younger brother stay home that week, too?
</p>
<p>
OC: It was just my younger brother. If she told one of us and both of us to stay home, we both stayed home. That was it. There was no chance – it wasn’t because of our upbringing and where we came from, it was unheard of to be, as they say “Boy, don’t give me not back talk!” It was unheard of to talk back to your parents. It just wasn’t – it’s just something we wouldn’t do.
</p>
<p>
JW: Did your mom stay home that week, or [talking simultaneously] did she have to go to work?
</p>
<p>
OC: [Talking simultaneously] No, she had to go to work every single day. Didn’t miss a day’s work and was never late. She kept that to herself, and she – I’m trying to think – I think she had a car then. Yeah, she had a car then. So, she got to work every single day. Never –
</p>
<p>
JW: And, so you said Twelfth Street was about four blocks away from where you lived?
</p>
<p>
OC: No, Twelfth Street was four blocks away from where she worked.
</p>
<p>
JW: From where she worked, okay.
</p>
<p>
OC: Oh, I’m sorry. Started on Scotten, we moved to Hazelwood two years later.
</p>
<p>
JW: Oh, okay.
</p>
<p>
OC: So, Hazelwood is where – I’m getting my getting my streets mixed up. On Scotten we were nowhere near Twelfth Street. We were on the west side – near west side of Detroit. We would have to drive – shoot – or walk or bike a half hour to get to Twelfth Street. Where my mom worked at Herman Keifer [Hospital] was four blocks from Twelfth Street. So, once again: Don’t go on Twelfth Street. There wasn’t any sense in going on Twelfth Street.
</p>
<p>
JW: And so then, as – when the National Guard was called in, did that increase the anxiety in the city for you or did that make things a little more reassuring?
</p>
<p>
OC: A lot of 1967, for me, was the knowledge of it came after, years after maybe five, maybe ten years after. I never knew about the snipers because I never saw any or heard any. It wasn’t until after the fact that you find out, oh 43 people were killed or some amount of numbers. There was snipers shooting. The only thing I can attest to seeing with my eyes: the devastation of the buildings, the commercial buildings because I was able to go up on Grand River and from the Boulevard north on Grand River, stores were just being looted, Cancellation Shoes, all the department stores and appliance stores were looted. There was a, what would be called a party store, drug store around the corner from my house at West Grand Boulevard and McGraw. Totally destroyed. I had just been in the store the day before and I saw all of the man’s products and small personal deodorant, things like that just strewn about on the ground and right next to it was a fire station. I had a buddy of mine that lived two houses up from that, so we used to cut through each other’s backyards to get to each other’s houses. And his mom and dad had him quarantined. He said, “Well, you’ve got to go home because this is what happening down here.” So, I couldn’t come over and play. That’s when it affected me.
</p>
<p>
JW: Did you see the National Guard then or was it just –
</p>
<p>
OC: I saw the tracks of the tanks, but I saw the Jeeps. That was the first time I’ve ever seen a Jeep with a .50 caliber machine gun. Didn’t know what it was at the time. Didn’t know what caliber it was but it was a Jeep. And it was soldiers, people in – it didn’t matter to me “National Guard,” to me it was the army and it was just shocking to see that in an American city. You saw it on television, you watched the news, you saw it in other places. This was something happening in, at that time, the fourth largest city in the country. And there was a disbelief, a disassociation; I’m thinking to myself, “This would never happen in Henderson, Kentucky and here it is happening in Detroit, Michigan.” Probably ignorance was bliss because if I had known how dangerous the situation was for me walking around on the sidewalk, I probably never would have been out there. But I didn’t know. That’s part of God looking out for you because I was too naïve to know how dangerous a situation it really was. I didn’t know about people sniping I didn’t know about the police being trigger happy. I was a young, black man-boy walking along the street. Would’ve been another statistic. So, just by the grace of God, nothing happened to me and I got home.
</p>
<p>
JW: When did the danger of the week begin to set in?
</p>
<p>
OC: When was the what?
</p>
<p>
JW: When did the danger, that you now associate with that week, when did that begin to set in?
</p>
<p>
OC: Because it’s after the fact, it’s like if – I guess the only way to describe it is you’re at the airport and a plane crashed but you’re not on it. You feel for the people there and you’re at the airport and you’re ready to fly or you’ve just flown in. But it didn’t happen to you but you can sort of emphasize with, “Gee,” I’ll say it again, “There, but for the grace of God, go I.” The only thing I guess I can relate it to, the day after the plane Flight 91 or 93 or whatever it was that crashed out here at Metro [Detroit Metropolitan Airport] twenty-some years ago, I had just got from Japan. It was like <i>phew</i>. I don’t know. It was one of those things were, after the fact, when you sit down and read – a caveat of this, they just filed a movie here. 1967. Katheryn Bigelow [<i>Detroit</i>, 2017] I was an extra in that movie. I played one of the group of men arrested and we were – they filmed this at the Tenth Precinct and that’s where they actually brought these people in the night of the disturbance – and it was interesting watching the recreation, that chaos, because they were the police and how they responded and how we were supposed to be acting and pretending. So, that’s about as close as I came to it. They bloodied our faces up and put makeup on us to make it look like we had been dragged and beaten because apparently there was a lot of it going on. Now, poetic license, who knows? I wasn’t an actual survivor of it, but I played one on the TV.
</p>
<p>
JW: Oh wow, oh, that’s fun. That’s interesting.
</p>
<p>
OC: We’ll see how much I get cut.
</p>
<p>
JW: Do you think that that week and everything that happened, do you think that that affected your opinion of the city or the way you viewed the city?
</p>
<p>
OC: I moved into the city on July 1, 1965 and I’ve never moved out. I’ve never lived anywhere else. I never ran, I never hid. I bought and sold real estate. The kids grew up here. I’ve never had a problem with living in Detroit. So, to me, no, it didn’t affect me. I saw the changes in other people. I saw the changes in attitude toward Detroit long before Cleveland became the joke of the nation, Detroit was. I don’t like the term “Reinventing Detroit.” I don’t like that definition that we’re getting now because we’re looking out and seeing trolleys go up and down paved roads. Woodward was always a busy street. In fact, it was busy – in fact, we had streetcars on it before. So, streetcars now doesn’t make Woodward any better or worse that it was when I came here in ’65 because trolleys were running up and down the street then. As a matter of fact, when they dug up this road, they hit the tracks. They could have probably used them. This building – the Detroit Institute of Arts was there, Wayne State was here. It’s bigger now. This building was here. I say the biggest change in Detroit from then to now is you didn’t have the number of vacant houses and properties and that has nothing to do with the riots. The riots burned down commercial areas; they didn’t burn down neighborhoods. That’s the biggest misconception. Neighborhoods weren’t touched. But commercial strips were hit and hit hard. Grand River, Gratiot, McGraw. Any place where you had businesses, they were hit hard. But the actual neighborhoods were not touched. As much as people would like to believe that this caused the neighborhoods to – no, what happened was after the businesses left, the people left. Then that cycle of – and I’ve never seen it anywhere else in the country and I’ve been all over. I’ve seen vacant houses, I’ve seen a lot places with vacant – but there’s some sort of mentality, and maybe it’s in the water here, where people feel they need to tear up a vacant house and that’s what exacerbated the decline of the neighborhoods. Had nothing to do with the riots. The riots took the businesses out, the mom and pop shops. Took them out. What we used to have, like I said, Cancellations, B.Siegels, stuff like that. Livernois decimated because then the insurance companies significantly raised the rates for insurance in Detroit on just about every business and the people couldn’t afford it. And white flight, those people who own those businesses didn’t want to risk coming down to work in them every day for fear – can’t blame them – for fear of getting shot, stabbed, killed, run over, raped, robbed. There’s a lot of anger and frustration. Almost quietly you have the same frustration now. It’s amazing how it doesn’t take much. Thank God we don’t have soccer matches here because there seems to be an underlying current in soccer matches to go and explode. You don’t have that in football, baseball, or hockey. But soccer is expected to get the crowd involved, be hooligans. The problems they have over in London and England and all places where they play soccer especially, in the southern hemisphere they take that stuff way beyond us. But there’s always underlying powder keg of frustration in the general people. People who have felt they have been marginalized. Talk about a lot of things about disrespect. People feel they have been disrespected. The last election cycle was nothing but a big thumbs up, screw you to the entire country. We’ve been disrespected; we’re not going to take it anymore. And you see the results. That’s one way. That’s one reaction. The other reaction is to get angry. This country’s loaded with people with guns. One of the things they did, they suspended sales of gasoline. You couldn’t go to the gas station and get a container of gasoline. If you didn’t put it in your car, you couldn’t buy gasoline during that period because they didn’t want people buying gasoline. So, you have people feeling marginalized, people feeling like you’re not listening to them, complaints are falling on deaf ears. To fuel that, we’ve got an arsenal of weapons. It’s hot. Something about the scientific study that 93 degrees seems to be a breaking point for people. Once it crosses that, their minds start to get really anxious about things. Long hot summer, frustrations, economic frustrations, political frustrations, social frustrations, people just frustrated for whatever reason. They want to blame somebody and they can’t pin a finger on somebody so they strike out. Throughout my life I’ve never felt that towards anything or anyone. I’ve accepted responsibilities for my own mistakes but that’s the way I was raised. And so, justified? Absolutely not. No, absolutely not. Even if it was responding to a police raid on a blind pig – and there was a lot of – back then, Detroit was almost like an occupied camp. You could find one or two black police officers, maybe, so it was an army of white males you could find one or two black police officers, maybe, so it was an army of white males – there weren’t any white women – an army of white males like an occupying police force. STRESS [Stop The Robberies, Enjoy Safe Streets], that came up. It was a definite resentment toward the police department. And it didn’t – now that’s something that I did experience. We used to have back then, it used to be called the Big Four and it was four officers – it was a regular uniformed, patrol officer – all white. A uniformed, patrol officer drove the car. It was a – I think we had Chrysler cars back then, too. It was afforded three plain-clothes officers. They used to slink low in the car and ride around. It was called cruise control. And their job was to go out, bust heads. That was their job. And everybody called then The Big Four. People terrified of them. They’d roll down the street and people scatter. And the car use to be always slunk down in the back, that’s because in that trunk they had a complete arsenal. Bullet-proof vests, helmets, machine guns. I mean machine guns. They were ready for war. And it was known, you didn’t mess with the Big Four; the Big Four messed with you. So that’s a precursor to this –
</p>
<p>
JW: You said you had a run-in with them?
</p>
<p>
OC: Hmm?
</p>
<p>
JW: You said had a run-in with them? Or you just felt the presence?
</p>
<p>
OC: Oh, I knew not to have a run-in with them. But I had a run-in with the STRESS people. Because back then, if you – fast-forward to next year I was driving a car so even after the riots there was a lot of – the police department, it wasn’t until Coleman Young – that’s how Coleman Young got elected mayor. He promised the number one thing is not have the police busting your head, cracking your door, pulling you over. This was a common occurrence in Detroit. If you were a young, black male, the police would pull you over in a heartbeat. Doing something or not, just driving. They used to call it “Driving While Black,” this was “Walking While Black.” You got harassed by the police department. So, there was a natural resentment for that. It hadn’t affected me until later on. So maybe for somebody that was 19 or 20. Also got to think about something else: this was the start of – yeah 1966, the start of the Vietnam War. So, a lot of people getting drafted, so they had to create an available pool of people that couldn’t get work so that would have to enlist and drafted and go to Vietnam. So, it wasn’t until you get older and see the handsprings, the political pulling, and the puppeteering that you understand why there was such discontent on the street because it’s necessary to feed into this machine so that you can – General Motors at that time – so they can sell M-16s. They made the rifles that wouldn’t work in the sand. And a lot of guys over there got killed because the rifles jammed. And fortunately for me, I didn’t have to go.
</p>
<p>
JW: Oh, good,
</p>
<p>
OC: But my brother and my cousins. So, you’re on a city level, you’re on a neighborhood level living and you’re totally unaware of the expanding circle of events that are international in some cases that are well beyond your control, but yes, they come back to affect you living in that little, small, two-and-three blocks and you don’t even see it. You’re such on a small ant level, you don’t even see how manipulated you are until you get out, until you read, until you educate yourself, and you learn. Then you see it bolster. This cause and effected this, this, this, and that and finally it gets down to you and you say, “Okay, I understand how the game is played now worldwide. It’s an eyeopener when you wake up. Unfortunately, we have probably two or three generations out here that haven’t woke up. They’re still disassociated with how the world works and how that something happening on the other side of the world in China can affect them walking down the street here. They have no clue as to how connected it is. They think, “It doesn’t bother me.” It does. It really does.
</p>
<p>
JW: So, I’ve heard you use the term riot a few times. Is that the word you use to describe it because we’ve heard a couple other terms as well?
</p>
<p>
OC: Well, “Insurrection.” An insurrection sounds like something that happens in South America. We’re going to go out and rise up against – an insurrection is you rise up against an oppressive machine. So, who do we rise up against? Didn’t rise up against the political structure. “Civil Disobedience,” that’s a polite way of saying it, but once again, that implies that you’re civilly disobedient to a structure, to a power structure. Going out and burning down a neighborhood business that didn’t cheat you, had nothing against you, but because now you have [air ?] and opportunity, that’s a riot. Because it wasn’t – there was not – it wasn’t like we were to do this to take over City Hall or take over the state government. It wasn’t an uprising against the city of Detroit or the state of Michigan – or even smaller, the county of Wayne. It was – that’s the definition of a riot: It’s a mob that acts violently and strikes out at whatever is near. Nobody rioted across Eight Mile Road. Nobody rioted west of Telegraph or east of Alter Road. They didn’t go over to Windsor and riot. It was specifically confined to the city of Detroit and a very small area. I mean, I think somewhere on Seven Mile somebody said, Oh, they’re burning stuff here, we’ll burn this place up. But that was rare, it was really confined to a very localized area. I mean, somebody will come and say, Oh, yeah, they burned the house down next to me. No, that was somebody that was in the neighborhood. It had nothing to do with the riot. And I don’t think, except for the first night or maybe the first day, I don’t think you had that many people – I cannot – because I cannot recall that many people out in the street in a mob situation going up and down the street. Because I came out in the daytime and I saw the destruction. I went home and went to sleep because of the curfew. So, I wouldn’t come out at night anyway. You see the after affects. I didn’t hear anything, I slept soundly, I didn’t hear anything. Nobody woke me up in the night with gunshots and stuff like that, I didn’t hear anything, I slept soundly. Wake up the next day and see another puff of smoke over here. Go around the block and they tore up this and that. Other than that, I didn’t see anything.
</p>
<p>
JW: Are you optimistic for the state of the city moving forward?
</p>
<p>
CO: Oh, I’ve always been optimistic. If you’re not optimistic, then you leave. I would have left a long time ago. If you’re not optimistic, you quit. You stop messing with it. You give it up. And I said, that’s another one of the mistakes about the city. The city never stopped evolving. It never stopped moving forward because even during that stretch, people still stayed. They still paid their taxes, they still cut their grass, they still raised their kids, they still did everything that normal human beings do. Even while you’re losing a million people that have decided on their own to leave. I’m president of our neighborhood association. I can tell you, these people have been in their houses for 30 or 40 years. They didn’t leave. They didn’t move. They didn’t quit. They went to work whatever job they had during this period. They coached Little League. The guy across the street is coaching baseball and has been coaching baseball for 30 years. We dealt with it. It was another thing that had to be dealt with and done and did it change? It definitely changed the political structure in Detroit and it changed the political structure in Detroit for the next 50 years because they elected Coleman Young and until Mike Duggen, Boom! We had black folk in positions of authority and power. Something that prior to that you never had. Couldn’t get – you couldn’t almost get – it was always, woah, we got a black person on the council. So, these things happen but then again, you had a city where one million people left so that city, by default, became a majority black city. It wasn’t that black people weren’t already here because black people left, too. Southfield was populated by black people, or it is now. But you had a contingency of folk that just left so the city was left with black residents. It wasn’t that we just came in and took over; we maintained. We kept all the lights on – no pun included but we kept all the lights on. The city functioned. The city existed. The city kept going. It didn’t just all of a sudden Detroit, Michigan disappeared from the map. It was always here. We won a sports championship the next year in 1968. We won three basketball championships during that period of time. We won Stanley Cups. The entire thing kept going, the city kept functioning. It did not disappear. We attracted new residents. People like me grew up, participated in the process, put down roots, made more people. Nothing changed. It’s the perception that something happened and it really didn’t. I think it’s like certain parts of nature have naturally occurring forest fires that have to occur to regrow and rebirth the area. In some small way, violently as it was, the riots had to – and it wasn’t the first riot Detroit ever had. It was not. It had to do that. But it had to be enough of a gut-punch to regrow and recycle the city for the next 50, 60 years. Maybe even 100. Right now, it’s getting – the city got another gut-punch with the quote unquote “bankruptcy” and every now and then you have to gut-punch society to make it move forward. The gut-punch in 1967 was the riots. The gut-punch in 2014 was the bankruptcy. All of these things have to happen – New York City went bankrupt. Cleveland went bankrupt. We’re not the first city to go bankrupt. So, you have to have a guy-punch to move a large organization because it’s like the Titanic, “Oh there’s the iceberg, we ain’t turning. It’s getting closer, we’re not going to turn. Oops, we hit it. Oh, damn, now we should have turned.” It sort of takes that. You don’t want to live through too many of them but you have to realize that you’re in a unique position because you can see where that – now you can see green grass where brown grass used to be. You appreciate that green grass now because you saw the brown grass before. And some visionaries can tell you, Hey you better do something or this grass is going to turn brown. Oh I don’t care about that and the ground turns brown. So now you have to come in and work hard to get it back to being green. Hopefully people and society and entities from labor, government, and the philanthropic people can see, let’s not let ourselves get to where we need powder kegs and gut-punches to make us change and adapt. That’s hard because some people are so entrenched that they can’t see that change is coming and therefore they won’t change. That’s not comfortable. I hope for gosh sakes that we won’t have to have a climactic gut-punch for us to realize that global warming is absolutely real. And it seems like that’s what it’s going to take. It’s going to take that meteor hitting the earth for us to wake up and we’ll be just like the dinosaurs: extinct. Detroit didn’t go extinct. What we had are small meteors hit and knock out an entire underbelly that once lived here and thrived. It didn’t knock out the crime because the crime has been here since 1920. The Purple Gang was running up and down. Those are the people that Al Capone hired for the St. Valentine’s Day Massacre. They came from Detroit. So, did it change, yes. But it should change. You can’t have something happen like that and go back to what you had. In that case it was good because it forced the change. It forced a change and forced an acknowledgment that something is wrong. And people have been trying and conniving and trying to keep some of it going on and then there’s been another group that trying to right the wrong and figure out how to get it done. Even today, it’s still going on. People are trying to hold on to – and that’s power. People are very reluctant to share people. If people share power a lot more easily, things like this would never get to the point. That’s what it really is. Somebody has something, they’re not going to share it, and they expect you to keep living you are while they live like they do. It’s never going to work in any society.
</p>
<p>
JW: Are there any other memories from that summer that you would like to share?
</p>
<p>
CO: Other than that, it’s – I survived it. Truthfully, until July comes around and oh, it’s the anniversary of the riot. Is it 50 years? Yeah 50 years. It’s not something that I get up every day and think about because I’m not associated with anything to do with it. It’s not something I get up everyday and, oh my gosh I remember the riot!” Maybe if I had been one of the relatives of the 43 people that were killed or if someone had died that was close to me, then it would have a different meaning to me. My wife knows people whose parents were shot and I don’t know anybody that was shot or killed but she does. So, for them, that’s something they live with every single day, I don’t. A party store around the corner from where I used to live burned down or was destroyed. It’s something else now. I don’t go to it one way or the other so I have no connection to – today when I’m going to Twelfth Street, it’s because I’m going the Motown Museum and I cross Twelfth Street. I have no concept of Twelfth Street or related or Twelfth and Collingwood [Clairmount] or any of these things. It doesn’t register with me because I don’t have a perfect connection to it. I knew it happened. I was in the city, but, thank God, nobody I knew personally got harmed so it’s not an everyday I’ve got to live with this every single day about the riots are here or it’s the anniversary of something happened to somebody that I loved. It would be different – I don’t know if you have anybody that actually lost somebody in the riot but their story would be totally different than mine.
</p>
<p>
JW: Well, thank you so much for coming in and sitting down. We really appreciate it.
</p>
<p>
CO: No problem. Thank you. Take care and good luck.
Original Format
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Audio
Duration
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40min 14sec
Interviewer
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Julia Westblade
Interviewee
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Oliver Cole
Location
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Detroit, MI
Dublin Core
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Title
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Oliver Cole, April 21st, 2017
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview, Cole discusses growing up as a teenager in the city of Detroit. He remembers the city in the summer of 1967 but at the time was not aware of everything that happened. As he grew older, he realized the implications of that summer.
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
Date
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11/09/2018
Rights
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Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Format
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Audio/WAV
Language
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en-US
Type
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Oral History
1967 riot—Detroit—Michigan
Arson
Curfew
Detroit Tigers
Mayor Coleman Young
Michigan National Guard
STRESS
Teenagers
The Big Four
Twelfth Street
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Detroit 67: Looking Back to Move Forward
Subject
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Stories gathered to commemorate the summer of 1967 in Detroit.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Detroit Historical Society
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Language
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en-us
Date
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10/20/2019
Oral History
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Narrator/Interviewee's Name
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Willie Horton
Brief Biography
A short biography of the Interviewee
Willie Horton was born in Virginia and came to Detroit as a boy. He attended Detroit Northwestern High School and signed with the Detroit Tigers in 1961. He made his major league debut in 1963. After retiring from professional baseball, he worked with the Detroit Police Department and was active in the formation of the PAL program.
Interviewer's Name
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William Winkel
Interview Place
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Detroit, MI
Date
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12/07/2017
Interview Length
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00:30:44
Transcriptionist
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Julie Vandenboom
Transcription Date
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1/23/2018
Transcription
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WW: Hello. My name is William Winkel. Today is December 7, 2017. I'm in Detroit, Michigan. This interview is for the Detroit Historical Society's Detroit 67 Oral History Project, and today I'm sitting down with Willie Horton. Thank you so much for sitting down with me today. </p><p>
WH: Thank you.
</p><p>
WW: Can you please start by telling me where and when you were born?
</p><p>
WH: I was born in 1942, in a small town: Arno, Virginia. My parents came north when I was about nine or ten, and I went back down south so I could play baseball down there for a year, and then I came back, been here ever since - before my early teens. Raised up in Detroit. Jeffries Projects. And, matter of fact, this is our old neighborhood. We used to run around over here at Wayne State.
</p><p>
WW: Why did your parents leave Virginia for Detroit?
</p><p>
WH: Well, my dad's mine got shut down, and that's when he came back up this way. You know, they closed down all the mines down there in Virginia, where we were living at at the time.
</p><p>
WW: When you came to Detroit for the first time, do you remember your first impression?
</p><p>
WH: Well, when I first came to Detroit, I was about five or six. My mom's people lived here. I was coming down today, I was thinking about the streetcars I used to get on and ride down Grand River. And then I - that's the first time. Then after that, just come back here, getting raised up in the neighborhood around people, and raised up around the Jeffries Projects. And you know, what fascinated me, everybody thought it was all black, but there were just as many white people in the Jeffries Projects. A lot of people went to Wayne State and stuff like that. But it was a very experience - helped me in my life - coming through that era.
</p><p>
WW: When you came up to Detroit to live, did you feel comfortable when you went around the city and hung out?
</p><p>
WH: When you're a young man you just didn't - you didn't worry about it. You just did things. I tell people, I came up during the time - my first five years in the big league were racial. And that's many years after Jackie Robinson. But our neighborhood, you know - and I talk about this a lot - was churches and schools. We need to get - them two things need to get back together. You had drugs. Drugs been here, but churches and schools, whether your race was black or white, they was your community. And that's what I think about. We did things together - maybe didn't go to school with, but we did everything in the community - neighborhood - together, so I think about that a lot, through my life, as I travel. And it helped me as I started in baseball.
</p><p>
WW: And you said you went back South to start playing baseball again?
</p><p>
WH: Well, when I was younger I went back, and for some reason they wanted to play tee ball or something up here, I forgot, and I'd always been advanced. I went back down to Tennessee and I used my brother Billy's birth certificate so I could play in a higher league. So, I stayed down there one year with my brothers and then after that Mr. Thompson was going to Wayne State - which he was, got drafted by the Rams, and he got hurt, and he was over at Wayne getting his degree, and he came by [Poe ?] School ground, and one day he stopped, and he asked you guys, do you want to play baseball? So, he said, meet me back here next Monday.
</p><p>
So, all the kids in the community, we met him back over there. That's how we got started and actually I talk about how he started the Ravens, from the Ravens to Brown Insulation to the west side clubs. And that's all that started years ago, but thanks to Ron Thompson and people like that, that's the reason I'm here speaking today.
</p><p>
WW: What year did you head south to play ball?
</p><p>
WH: I really don't know. It had been early - I'd go back - I was about nine years old, so you go back - I'm 75, so you can kind of go back in the years and figure that out, but right off, I can't say.
</p><p>
WW: No worries. When you were away from the city did you stay away, or were you coming back intermittently?
</p><p>
WH: I came back at the end of the summer. I'd go back, that first time I played baseball in Kingsport, Tennessee, and actually we had a tournament up in around Louisville, Kentucky, that area, and that's the first time I met Pete Rose as a young man - kid - and Eddie Brinkman. And we all started, the first time I ever laid my eye on them, and later on in my career, playing in Detroit, going to a tournament where I met him again. But I think if you look back, what kept me going in life, I always wanted to do try to do something. I didn't know what at the time. I'm very fortunate my parents got Judge [Damon] Keith at the time to become my legal advisor when I was 13 years old. And what I learned from him, between thirteen and seventeen I signed on - I don't think I could have gotten that learning from eight years in college. But I'm just thinking - today he's still my dad. I call him dad. And he went on - been a famous judge in this country and - but he was a lawyer and people don't realize he was the first black firm to come across Woodward. At the time, you know, on the west side.
</p><p>
WW: As you're coming back to the city and growing up, through the fifties, do you see any rising tension in the city?
</p><p>
WH: Naw, not really. You didn't think - when you were a kid, a young man - you didn't think about it. A lot of things you heard were going on, but, you know, adult, whether you're black or white, they kept a lot of things away from the kids. And we didn't know the difference. Probably a lot of things going on we didn't know - all we looked for, going out to school, going out to the playground and play, doing things together, walking out to Belle Isle and stuff like that. I think as I heard about these things, coming up a kid, I guess when I got involved and paying more attention to it, is after I signed the contract.
</p><p>
WW: Similar question. When you were in the South, did you see the Civil Rights Movement in action?
</p><p>
WH: Not really. We - like I said, down there we only - it was the neighborhood. We always did things together and - you didn't go to school - but I've been around white people, down in Virginia, in Arno, just as much as I've been around black people. Only thing was different - you noticed you just didn't go to school with your best buddy. When I did my first book, years ago, I reunioned with a kid I ain't saw since we were little kids. His name is Munson, in Virginia - but all you did, you would go fishing together - and I mean, we used to - we called them creeks, and we used to catch these fish, we called them suckers – they were like catfish – with our hands, in the creek, and I think about that, and I met him walking to go downtown to play baseball. I cut through their neighborhood, where he's living. We start walking and then I got more involved in baseball, and he did too, and I think what he learned from sports he went on and became a great man in the political world.
</p><p>
WW: Aside from baseball did you play any other sports in the city?
</p><p>
WH: I played - well, you know, I played football. I played basketball. I boxed. Boxing gym was not too far from here - I see they should put a historic site over - used to be Kelsey Recreation Center, but they're going to put some kind of power plant there. They should put some kind of historic name - a lot of people came through there, went on and had fame in life. But you know, we just kept it together. You know, my boxing coach, matter of fact, he got to be up around 90, he's still living. He's still sitting on the boxing committee on Parks and Recreation, the city now. Martin Gillgate.
</p><p>
It just - it kept us busy. You know, you get out of school, you go do one thing. You kept busy. But I think where they learn you - I'd like to see kids get involved in more than one sport. I think it helps your decision skills when you play more than one sport. You might not be good in all of it, but it helps your decision skills, where you can make better choices in life.
</p><p>
WW: Throughout the 1950s and going into the sixties, did you continue living at the Jeffries Projects?
</p><p>
WH: Back and forth. My mom and daddy had a two-room - actually, a two-room apartment, but Jeffries Projects was close to where my mom then, I stayed with my sister, Faye Griffin, and from that, I used to go home, back and forth. It just - you know, in our community, actually, your house - your door - for the people in the community, the door was open for anybody. They'd help you, feed you. I don't think - I don't think I ever went hungry, because you can eat at anybody's house. But I think - I think about that - I go by all the community where I was raised up, now they got new condos and houses over there, they just put a new baseball field several years back, at the playground where we started playing ball as a kid - and usually on the way down to the ballpark I usually drive through there. I usually drive down there two or three times a week.
</p><p>
WW: Going into the sixties, you, of course, joined the Tigers in '63?
</p><p>
WH: No, I came up. I signed in '61. I signed a hardship case to help my parents. And from the hardship case, Judge Keith got involved. There was still racial problems in baseball and stuff like that. And actually, my dad requested that I stay at home with the Tigers, because he let me - 1961, before I signed, to go see Jake Wood, the first black player - African American player - 12 years after Jackie Robinson came through this organization. And that's the reason I signed with the Tigers. I thought I was going to sign for the Yankees, Baltimore, I'd been working out with them. But going down Trumbull towards the ballpark, I asked Papa why we're going that way. He said, “I decided, young man, let you see play baseball, back in June - I mean in April - I think the eleventh or tenth - that I think you can stay home, maybe you might make it different for more black players in the future.”
</p><p>
WW: As you're now on an MLB [Major League Baseball] team, and you're growing in national significance, do you become involved in the national civil rights discussion, or do you focus on baseball?
</p><p>
WH: Well yeah, I got involved, to tell you the truth, go back when I left home. I talk about this a lot - I probably experienced what Mother Parks - Rosa Parks - experienced on the bus - but at the time the bus was full, and I went to the back anyway, but in Lakeland, I got out at the bus station, I want to get a ride to Tigertown - and I thought that - he said he can't take me. You know, at home, I see Yellow Cab, Checker Cab, I said I want to go to Tigertown. He said "I can't take you." And I - to me, I thought - thought he was playing a joke. You know, you leave away from home, you hear about people playing jokes on guys go to college - freshmen and stuff like that - I get my duffelbags, I walk six miles - between four and six miles to Tigertown. And it's funny, after I got there, it still didn't sink in until there was a white kid - I forget his name - we played baseball against each other in Detroit, and we wanted to room together, and I couldn't room together with him.
</p><p>
So, from all the hardship case that I experienced, got me where I went beyond the field. I think to Ernie Harwell and George Kell kind of helped prep me, what I was going to have to go through when I come up with the Tigers. Actually, I used to go eat at Ernie's home on Sunday, to have dinner with him and his family. And they kind of got me into doing that, and I kind of got ready for what I would have to come toward in the future.
</p><p>
And after spring training, we left, and then here going to Duluth, Minnesota my first year, and I have highest respect to [Al Lakeland ?], our manager - that we couldn't stay at the hotel and he took the older guys, and they drew - driving all the way to Duluth, Minnesota, so I think about him in life, and he kind of - people like that help you get where you want to go out and try to make a difference for everybody. And through Ernie Harwell I met Bob Hope. I got involved with the military bases and I'm still involved with the military bases. I've been overseas with Bob Hope for a time, and six other times, and you know, I just - from that, it makes you say - things that you appreciate, that you can reach back and try to put some things together to help all people. Through the military, and I think it helped me get more involved in the community. You know, if you get exposed - standing out in the woods with them at night, not just going there to say hi and goodbye, but you got totally involved. And actually I'm still doing that today with the Tigers. We've got a partnership with Fort Benning. We bring soldiers to spring training, and the families. I go down in November to graduation, et cetera.
</p><p>
WW: Were you in town in '63 for the march down Woodward?
</p><p>
WH: I was out playing in '63. My dad was a part of it. He called me, and Papa, he was part of it, when Dr. King did the march, and I learned through Judge Keith, as a lawyer, that was going to happen. Then I had the opportunity later on meeting Dr. King through Judge Keith, and that's when I said I met a lot of famous people: presidents, entertainment and movie actors through Judge Keith, but I never forget that. But I had opportunity of meeting him before I got home down in Memphis, Tennessee, when he gave a speech down there and I never forget that. And things like that keep you growing. And through life, I look back, and I think that's what keeps me going now, and I try to carry myself according to that.
</p><p>
WW: Getting closer to '67, did you feel any rising tension in the city, or sense anything coming?
</p><p>
WH: Nope. And I remember, it's a funny thing about that. Jake Wood, after he got involved, and I hear his story, and Jake – I got him back involved with the Tigers now, and Jake, he's 80, 81, still playing 72 games of softball. But to hear him speak, he didn't realize that was going on. And I - you'd think, but he'd been hearing about it, he came from New Jersey, and to hear him speak, he said he looked up to me, I looked up to him, because that's the reason I signed with the Tigers, because of him, but he made a statement many times - he didn't realize until he started reading about it.
</p><p>
And I guess because your mind is playing baseball and being part of the fan base, which I call my extended family, and I learn how to play through the fans and made them part of my game, and listen to him say that - I would do the same thing over again because I learned an important benefit of being a professional athlete is going to play the game - and I never put the game before the fans.
</p><p>
WW: In '67, were you still living near the Jeffries Projects?
WH: No. I - actually, Jeffries Projects, I got out of Jeffries Projects years before. Judge Keith became my league adviser when I was 13 years old. And he lived on Woodrow Wilson. I was going back and forth, staying at his place. And I actually, after I signed my contract, got mother and them a nice home out near Highland Park, and I set up a pension for my dad for ten years or so, and I think - I still didn't get away from the Projects because I never get - when I went off the first year, '61, I had met a guy that - like my mentor, that I looked up to, was Gage Brown, I talked him into coming home with me. I introduced him his wife, Norma Sterling at the time, and she was in the Projects. We were raised up together, and - but - I think about that. The connection, through people, and actually, I used to stop by there all the time. And I was in the big league and I used to stop, before they started building - developing that new development over there. But I used to stop through there and see people from the past. And that's - I never forgot where I came from. I'm very thankful and humble through God, that he kept me humble. That I never got away from that.
</p><p>
WW: Going into the start of the week, on Saturday night, late Saturday night, Sunday morning, how did you hear - how did you first hear about what was going on?
</p><p>
WH: Well actually, it was Sunday. I didn't hear about nothing like that until actually, I got involved. We had a doubleheader, I think, with the Yankees. Second game, they called the game off, they told us they wanted all of us to go home, and for insurance purposes. And I ended up putting all my clothes in a duffle bag and I end up in the middle of the riot and try to bring some peace to the people. I used to wonder why I did that, but I had no control. I think God had control over that, through the people that I mentioned in the past - Judge Keith, Ernie Harwell - they got me where I was - got involved in things like that. I think about the riot, you know, down there, seeing all this looting and burning, and I talk - try to bring peace - but I mean, the people that kept me going back - they weren't about my security. Go home, Willie, get out of here, and stuff like that.
</p><p>
But I didn't do that. I went home and I come back, and when I told I got involved in the city, government, trying to make it better for people in the city, and one of my pet [inaudible] in life is the PAL [Police Athletic League] program, that Mayor Greer, I think, started that after the riot. Started developing that in 1969 - 1968 - started developing the PAL program and they opened up in '69.
</p><p>
WW: Can you correct the mayor?
</p><p>
WH: It's Mayor Griss.
</p><p>
WW: Gribbs, okay.
</p><p>
WH: And it started for a program that I'm very proud of, that I came back part of that program for many years after that, after playing sports and retiring, that Coleman recruited me to come back and work through the city government, through the police department. Then I came to be a Deputy Director and a Secondary Chief, that Detroit PAL kind of helped spearhead Philadelphia PAL and other PAL around the country, and all the bylaws that they do in PAL today, that we was involved putting that together, and they still use the same bylaws through the schools and PAL around the country, that we had - Inspector Bowham, that got involved in that, and went to the national PAL convention. And they still use the regulations and rules that we established back that many years.
</p><p>
WW: Going back to '67, you mentioned that you were going from near the epicenter, or the scenes of violence, back to your home, and back and forth. Did you run into any issues going to and from your house -
</p><p>
WH: No -
</p><p>
WW: Or did you see anything?
</p><p>
WH: Actually just a few days ago, we left going into Baltimore, playing that weekend, so I didn't see anything like that. But after we came back off the road I was able to have meetings, certain meetings and stuff like that, and I started going to some of the meetings and things like that, but I'm just - and I think that's the beginning of me kind of appreciate the good Lord gave me the ability to do something, that I can get involved doing other things, far as human era of people, that I can try to make a difference in their life.
</p><p>
WW: Did any of your family members have their property damaged, or -
</p><p>
WH: No.
</p><p>
WW: That's good.
</p><p>
WH: No. We - actually, my sister and them, actually still staying living in the Projects and stuff like that. And I know some people down Twelfth Street, that's the only problem got messed up a little bit. I seen a lot of history things - and last year they did a book, a story on the riots in '67 and I never would ask. I used to wonder why I never asked to be part of that, because I was very incidentally involved in that, but I think I've seen a lot of people say the bad things about the riot, but I seen some good things come out of the riot. I seen Detroit grow at the time - whether you want to admit that, or people to admit that, you know, most black people was in the Black Bottom. And through the riot, that's when we started branching out. You might call it a hardship at the beginning when you branch out into the community, but I think that was opportunity. And I seen Detroit grow in the minority area.
</p><p>
WW: You’ve referred to '67 as a riot a number of times. Is that how you frame what it was?
</p><p>
WH: I don't know what time, we was just playing. I don't - I can't say. All I seen was black smoke, look across, over the right field stands. And I didn't have a general idea what was going on until they called the game off.
</p><p>
WW: Oh no, I'm sorry. I mean - do you see it as a riot? Do you see it as an uprising, as a rebellion?
</p><p>
WH: Well, I was concerning, to me, in life, arise - you know, you do it, but don't get away from the meaning. I was telling the people, don't burn your own stuff down. Don't be looting, taking stuff. You defeat what the purpose was. And I'm just - we're just very fortunate they didn't get away from that, because they got busy trying to handle the problem with our own, tick that off, and try to correct it for the future. But sometimes you get - you get out there, defeat the purpose, and people thing you're out there just to start a riot, looting, it wasn't about that. It was about what went on with the police officer and some private people at a club or something.
</p><p>
WW: The police are routinely cited as a major force in inciting '67. How did you feel later on when you joined the police department? Did you think it had changed by that point?
</p><p>
WH: Well, that's many years after I played. You know, I came back - Coleman had a person named Charlie Pringman recruited me. I was living in Seattle, came back and got involved through that, and through the PAL organization. And I had opportunity to get involved with the Police Academy and stuff like that, understand all the bylaws and responsibilities, respect the uniform. I got totally involved. I'm very fortunate, I ended up as Secondary Chief, but that was many years after I retired from baseball.
</p><p>
WW: You mentioned that you became much more - not more involved, but you stayed involved in the community after '67.
</p><p>
WH: Well, actually, I started back in the community involvement back after I signed in '63 - '62, '63, when I met Bob Hope and et cetera. Actually I went back down in 1968, and had the war going on, went back down - and what's the name -
</p><p>
WW: Vietnam?
</p><p>
WH: Vietnam War. And I went back down there after the World Series and I'll never forget Mr. Fessie called, so what are you doing down there? You know. And they're concerned. I came back. But it's something that through that relationship with the military, and I think, working in the community, what got me today doing the same thing in the community, down in Florida now, is through churches and schools.
</p><p>
WW: Did anybody question that? Did anybody else - did anyone wonder why you were becoming so involved when so many people were leaving?
</p><p>
WH: Not really. I didn't - you know, I did things, and my heart's always been about Detroit. And the state - the people of the state of Michigan. I never been questioned why I did, right to today, and I just did things. And you know, I think that's one reason I'm back doing things now and thanks to Mr. Illitch and his family got me involved many years ago, and - but he got me back, not only in baseball, got me involved with the people in the community and their concern of treating people right.
</p><p>
WW: Going into '68. The '68 World Series win was really big for Detroit, and many people cite it as a moment of Detroit coming together. From your personal experience, what do you think it did for the city?
</p><p>
WH: I think it did a lot for the city. It started after we lost in '67, one game, and going into the winter, going into spring training, and started to open the season. People don't realize, newspapers were on the strike then. And I think playing good baseball, and people listen to Ernie Harwell's voice, I seen people - start getting more people at the ballpark and I seen black and white people sitting together, talking together, cheering us on, and a lot of times you need that support when you're with the newspaper, but we didn't have that. I think this town grow closer, because the newspaper's on the strike. I think sometimes, political-wise, things you read might keep you separated. But I seen where we went on, I think that's one of the reasons we won. I think - I always said to myself, I think on the plat down on the ballpark, I think the good lord put us here to win, to heal the city of Detroit. So I think it played a big important role, but I think it helped us as people, the guys that are playing this game - supporters are - we didn't think about it. We started taking, leading in baseball. And I think it started from the riot, and we went to spring training, so we knew we had the best team, we're going to win. And I think that newspaper on the strike, and Ernie Harwell's voice, I seen this city kind of grow together.
</p><p>
WW: Are there any other stories you'd like to share today?
</p><p>
WH: Well, I can talk all day when it comes to people and stuff like that. You know, I'm just very fortunate, back involved, and still involved, like I said, Mr. Illitch got me involved, and his family. And I think about - I go back many years ago, and what's going on in the city now, thanks to Mr. Illitch and his commitment through Coleman Young, that things that are going on, there's been a commitment for him to move downtown, which you see going on, and I think, if you go down there now, you see things growing every week, every day. And I'm 75, and I hope, I envision, I see - I know I won't see Hudson's back, because I used to love to do downtown around Christmas time to see them light up the Christmas lights on the side of the Hudson's building - but now he's got other things down there, and I really enjoy looking at the pictures of downtown at nighttime now, you see a lot of life.
</p><p>
But I think it goes back to - thank Mr. Illitch's family for doing that, for his commitment with Coleman, what's going on now, downtown, but I always think about uproar and the riots and stuff. Most young people don't realize what's going on. It's just like, you go to college, they see things going on in college, you start one of them. I'm following this kid. I'm following this one. They don't have an idea what's going on, they're just following the crowd. But - and that's why I said a couple years back, when Baltimore was having a problem. I said, if they get the people together, the people are going to heal that. And that's what I saw. Political wise, they kind of keep you far away, getting to the truth. But if you listen to the people in the community, that's who heals things like that. And primarily I think, that's what I'm still doing. Doing here, and I'm involved in a program down in Florida in spring training and Polk County and Lakeland and it's something that it's all - the story what we're doing down there is all about what I just explained to you. Go back three years ago and Mr. Illitch told me to go for it. You know, and this thing is growing across Polk County and I hope one day it might be a model for this country, what started when our childhood, coming up in Detroit, and my vision of the future, and Mr. Illitch's support, that right now we - I think we've got over 2200 foot soldiers in the Polk County community. And it's started from incident. But the key to this is churches and schools, and I'm - it's - if you look at life, sometime in the last 50 years or so, I seen churches and schools got separated. We lost a lot of faith in our schools. But you bring them two back together, I think they'll teach you about - remind you how you know your next door neighbor's name and stuff like that. But that's what I like to see. How many more years I've got left, thank the good lord, that I can see that come together, and I think that'll be nice for here in Detroit and for this country.
</p><p>
WW: Thank you so much for sitting down with me today.
</p><p>
WH: Thank you.
</p><p>
WW: I really appreciate it.
</p><p>
WH: Thank you.
Original Format
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Audio
Duration
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30min 44sec
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
William Winkel
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Willie Horton
Location
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Detroit, MI
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Willie Horton, December 7th, 2017
Description
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In this interview, Willie Horton discusses growing up in Detroit in the 1960s in the Jeffries Housing Projects, his impressions of the city, his actions during the events of 1967 as a member of the Detroit Tigers, and his ongoing work with the community both in Detroit and in Lakeland, Florida.
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
Date
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05/18/2018
Rights
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Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Format
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Audio/WAV
Language
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en-US
Type
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Oral History
1967 riot—Detroit—Michigan
1968 World Series
Detroit Community Members
Detroit Police Department
Detroit Tigers
Jeffries Housing Project
Looting
Martin Luther King Jr.
Mayor Coleman Young
Vietnam War
-
https://detroit1967.detroithistorical.org/files/original/36a371136c0ab5942e13c7dbd9614db5.jpg
a1af5fc6830e3cb021c88546b07e18ed
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Detroit 67: Looking Back to Move Forward
Subject
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Stories gathered to commemorate the summer of 1967 in Detroit.
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
Rights
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Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Language
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en-us
Date
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10/20/2019
Oral History
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Video
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<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Kw1pDmBbVRE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>
Narrator/Interviewee's Name
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Peter Waldmeir
Interviewer's Name
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Peter Waldmeir was born and grew up in Detroit. He was in the marine corps, and was a sports reporter for the Detroit News.
Interview Place
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Grosse Pointe Woods
Date
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03/27/2017
Interview Length
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00:52:04
Transcriptionist
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Julia Moss
Transcription Date
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10/06/2017
Transcription
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<p>WW: Hello, today is March 24, 2017, my name is William Winkel, this interview if for the Detroit Historical Society’s Detroit 1967 Oral History Project, and I am in Grosse Pointe Woods, Michigan. And I am sitting down with—</p>
<p>PW: My name is Pete Waldmeir. I am the elder Pete Waldmeir. My son Peter is Peter W. and Peter Nielson Waldmeir.</p>
<p>WW: Thank you so much. Could you please start by telling me where and when were you born?</p>
<p>PW: Where and when? Yeah, I was born in the city of Detroit on Mark Twain out on the west side—far west side on January 16, 1931. I was born in a house on Mark Twain. I stress that because I’ve written it on occasion that I was born in a house, and someone has changed it to, “My parents were living in a house on Mark Twain when I was born.” And I said, “Because, why?” “Well you couldn’t have been born—you had to be born in a hospital.” I said, “I could have been born in a taxi cab, you know, the trunk of a car.” So, anyway, what else?</p>
<p>WW: Did you stay in that house growing up?</p>
<p>PW: No, never. I lived in several different places. My mother and dad were separated when I was about four or five, something like that, and I went to five different elementary schools my first eight years. And I ended up—well, I guess my last house was in the far Eastside of Detroit, on Somerset between Moran and Ross, 11435 Somerset, in case you’re looking for a house [laughs].</p>
<p>WW: So growing up you didn’t just stay on the west side, you traveled around the city?</p>
<p>PW: Oh, I wasn’t on the west side, I think we were on the west side because that’s where my father at the time could find a place—find a house, I don’t know. The only significant thing that ever happened to me there was I do recall I was outside playing on the sidewalk one morning when little Pauly next-door hit me on the head with a hammer. So you can put that anyway you think [laughs].</p>
<p>WW: Do you have any memories of the ’43 race riot?</p>
<p>PW: The ’43 race riot? Yeah.</p>
<p>WW: Would you like to share them?</p>
<p>PW: Yeah. I was living at 5900 Pennsylvania in Detroit, that’s near Gratiot and Harper intersection. Incidentally, Sonny Bono lived up at the Gratiot and Harper intersection also, in that big Italian neighborhood up there. This was just a regular neighborhood. I was going to Nativity of Our Lord Catholic Grade School. In ’43 I would have been—what did you say?</p>
<p>WW: Ten. Or you were—</p>
<p>PW: 1943?</p>
<p>WW: Twelve.</p>
<p>PW: I was like twelve, yeah. I was pedaling the papers at the time. I think I lived there probably three or five—I remember going to fourth grade there, and then I went out to the Sherrill School—I lived with my grandparents for a year in the fifth grade and I came back in the sixth, seventh, and eighth grade at Nativity. First few years I went to two or three different schools. Anyway, where were we?</p>
<p>WW: ‘43.</p>
<p>PW: Oh, in 1943 the race riot—my brother at the time, my older brother Joseph—Joe, was—I can’t remember, he was probably 19—he wasn’t that much older than me—he was probably 17 or so. He’d been out with a bunch of guys that night that the riots started, and had been caught up in it in some way. I’m—now, I was a kid at the time, I wasn’t asking a lot of questions. This was—and he was—I know he sought refuge in the church at Nativity, in the rectory with the priest there. Father Geller was the old priest there, who was the pastor. And I remember Joe—us all wondering where the devil he was all that time. And I finally found out when he did get home that he’d been hiding in there because he’d had some kind of a run-in. His—the few people he’d been running with or out with that night. That’s all the memory I have of it.</p>
<p>WW: Okay.</p>
<p>PW: I have a lot of memories of that neighborhood.</p>
<p>WW: Would you share a couple of them?</p>
<p>PW: Oh, sure. Yeah, it was the beginning of World War II. I was—I was born in ’31, it was ’41, December ’41, I would have been 10, 11. I was pedaling the Detroit News, in fact, on that Sunday that the whole thing happened. Of course, I didn’t—who knew where Pearl Harbor—I didn’t know where Hawaii was, so we were pretty isolated at that age. Now you’re not isolated, but in 1941 young kids were—</p>
<p>I remember the neighborhood quite well. You know, there were—it wasn’t far from Detroit City Airport. I had some relatives living up the street from us. And I’d pedal the papers there. You know, went to seventh and eighth grade. I had – oh yeah, I was down for about six months, I had tuberculosis, and in those days they didn’t know how to treat tuberculosis. They didn’t have any sulfa drugs or any of the rest of that stuff, it was all pretty much invented in World War II. And they didn’t want me put in a hospital because I was too young. Receiving Hospital—I’ll think of the name of the hospital, but a Detroit hospital was the center for TB patients. And I’d gone out there with my brother because he had a couple friends—one of his friends or two friends were in there. And I’d gone out with him—they made little things to be sold, and my brother was picking the stuff up and selling it to help make them a little money. And I apparently caught something in there. I had a lesion on my left lung. Didn’t keep me out of the Marine corps [laughs]. But by the time I was in the Marine corps they still—they needed guys too, so they didn’t pay too much attention to illnesses. Anyway, I spent six months in bed. I mean, in bed in my house, pretty much alone. My mom was working. It was during the war, and my mother was working, driving from roughly Gratiot and Harper to Lahser Road and Eight Mile Road, every day a round trip, so a long trip. I have good memories of the place.</p>
<p>WW: You said it was an Italian neighborhood?</p>
<p>PW: Well, there were Italians, it was kind of mixed, but there were a lot of Italians there, yeah. I lived in a four-family flat, I lived on the lower left. The house is still standing there right now. Whenever anybody hears this, it might be gone by then, but it’s still there. And it was a nice neighborhood. I bought my first pack of cigarettes there. I remember Wings, they were 12 cents.</p>
<p>WW: Was the neighborhood an integrated neighborhood or primarily white?</p>
<p>PW: I’m sorry?</p>
<p>WW: Was it integrated or primarily white?</p>
<p>PW: Oh, no, no. It was all white. There were no—in those days, I mean, even the time I went to high school or I started in high school, there was a black high school called Miller High School. You probably heard that from other people you’ve interviewed. And that was the only high school that had blacks in it. Except when I went—I got into high school in 1944. Pershing High had, like, one or two black football players. I think it was when they invented—they realized that black kids could play football and they—somewhere or other the Miller High School thing was abandoned. Miller’s still there, but—it still was there because it was in—right in Black Bottom, you know, down—anyway, let me see, what else?</p>
<p>WW: You joined the Marine corps in the fifties? Early fifties?</p>
<p>PW: I didn’t join, I was drafted.</p>
<p>WW: Drafted?</p>
<p>PW: I was drafted into the United States Marines, yeah. They had a draft in those days—oh, they had it during World War II, too. A certain number of guys they put in the Marine corps, a certain number of guys they put in the Army. And that—see, this was shortly after World War II—you know, Korea was not that long after World War II was over. Wasn’t over until ’46. About June ’46?</p>
<p>WW: World War II?</p>
<p>PW: World War II, yeah.</p>
<p>WW: Five.</p>
<p>PW: Oh, ’45, okay. And then Korea was 1950, so—and late 1950, so there were—yeah. In fact, I had a funny story about being drafted in the Marine Crops, too. I don’t know if your audience is interested in listening to it or not.</p>
<p>WW: Sure.</p>
<p>PW: I showed up at Fort Wayne. There had been a big story in Life Magazine about the Marine corps and boot camp and how tough it was and everything else. I remember laying in bed—I was living at 5900 Pennsylvania—and I remember looking at Life Magazine and laughing about all this. And when I got drafted later and I was sent down to Fort Wayne, and in an auditorium down there, and there were probably three, four hundred of us in the place, and—so we’re all ready to report for the draft, we’d already been assigned and we had—we were 1A, told to report to be enlisted. So, there were two—there was an army sergeant up there and he said, “Okay, all you guys, I’m going to—I got the—” There was a marine corps sergeant standing next to him, gunnery sergeant, he said, “Before we get started here, I’m going to call out a few names.” And so, we figured, oh, he’ll call out a few names, you know. So he went through the As and Bs and Cs, he got to Ws and went on by me. I said, “Gee, that’s fine.” He said, “Okay,” he said, “All you guys whose names I just called, you’re all in the Army. The rest of you guys go with sergeant what’s-his-name over here.” So I ended up in the marine corps that way. Greatest thing that ever happened to me. It was really—you know, I’d been working at—by that time I was—actually I was working with the <i>Detroit News</i> by that time. Yeah, I was. I’d been going to Wayne [State University] part time. And that’s another long story, but—</p>
<p>WW: How long did you serve in the Marine corps?</p>
<p>PW: Two years.</p>
<p>WW: When you got back in 1953 did you come back to Detroit?</p>
<p>PW: Yeah, oh yeah. I’d been at—I’d worked for the <i>Detroit News</i>. My mother had finally got us off of Pennsylvania Avenue. My mother finally got us off of there and bought her first house. So that was like 1944, and I lived over on Somerset between Moran and Moross, on the east side of Detroit. We—I saw an ad in the news— and I’d been going to Denby High School, and I saw an ad—and I’d been working a lot of part-time. I worked the auto plants in summers. I worked at Chrysler Jefferson plant, putting windows in Chryslers, and another place, Briggs body plant over on Mack Avenue, I worked there summers. And I worked a lot of different jobs, loading trains at Michigan Central Depot and other things. Anyway I—where was I?</p>
<p>WW: Joining the <i>News</i>.</p>
<p>PW: Oh yeah. So I picked up—I was looking for a job and I’d go through the Sunday paper and I found an ad in the Sunday paper for messengers, and so I figured I’d give it a call. So I gave them a call Monday morning and they said, “Yeah, come on down.” And it was to be a copy boy at the <i>Detroit News.</i> So I said, “Fine.” Like $17.50 a week for five days and eight-hour days, and no benefits or anything else because it was run on a part-time basis, the way people do to get out of paying for healthcare and things [laughs]. I didn’t need it anyway. So yeah, then I worked in a city room with a whole bunch of other copy boys. There were about ten of us, something like that, rotating on shifts. And I was going to Wayne part-time, and I wasn’t a very good student. In fact, I got kicked out after the first semester of my freshman year, and then I begged my way back in, got back in for the—no, what I dealt with—yeah, I got back in, then I laid out a semester, and that’s when the draft got me because I wasn’t going to school. And—so that’s what I was—I’d been working at the <i>News</i> as a copy boy in the city room for—well, I worked up there for about a year, as a copy boy. And then I took a look around the city room and I realized that all these guys had college educations and everything else, and I’d probably never get a job as a reporter. Although I hung out—my grandfather was a Detroit police officer, he was a lieutenant detective at the eighth precinct up on Grand River and Twelfth Street, right there in that big old building that said Grand River and Twelfth Street. Well, my grandfather was the head of the detective bureau there. And he’s got some great stories about patrolling that neighborhood when he was a foot patrolman. Anyway—and I’d been hanging out with police reporters myself, I’d gone over, because I knew a lot of the cops there from my grandfather indirectly at park picnics and things so they knew me, and I’d go over and volunteer for doing things. Volunteer in the press room and things like that, and I’d fill in for guys once in a while. Anyway, I looked around the sports department, and all those guys were about 35 years old, and I figured they’d all be dead before long, so—when a job opened as a sports—oh, I’d gone to see H[arry] G[eorge] <span style="text-decoration: underline;">Salsinger</span> who was the sports editor, and I had just come into the sports department, once I got to know what I was doing, or half of what I was doing in sports as a copy boy. They only had one copy boy, and I was it. The one before me had gone on to another job someplace. So I went up to H. G. Salsinger and asked him if I worked—I knew Saturday night was a really tough night in the sports department, they had a lot of things going on. Big Sunday papers in those days, you couldn’t lift them with a truck. So I told Sal—I asked Sal if I volunteered to work on Saturdays for nothing if he’d be sure that these guys would teach me something. So I did, I worked a lot of free time. Not only Saturday nights but other times when I wasn’t working upstairs, I’d go down to the sports department and work free. We didn’t have any unions so it was no problem. Anyway, I looked around and I figured I’d better—sooner or later I got promoted to doing small jobs and other things in the sports department. So when I went into the Marine Corps I had already become a reporter. I was—I hate to use the term “cub reporter,” but pretty much that’s what I was. I was the low man on the totem pole, I would write little squibs and cover the roller skating championships and things like that. Which was—and I’ll tell you, what’s really funny is the first roller skating championship I went to, it was held at the old Arena Gardens. Now, when I was a kid living with my father—no, not living, I was still living with my mother—my father was working in the bar at the Arena Gardens, he was a bartender. My natural-born father. And he’d take me to fights—he’d take me to fights at the Arena Gardens. And Joe Louis, I saw Joe Louis when I was like seven years old, fight at the Arena Gardens on Woodward Avenue in Detroit.</p>
<p>Anyway, one of my first assignments was to go to the roller skating championships at Arena Gardens. They had a big roller rink there, and they[unintelligible] fights and stuff like that. It was – Cobo Hall and all the rest of those places weren’t built yet. It was right off the Wayne campus, right on Woodward Avenue, just Woodward and Forest, there was the old Arena Gardens, so. Anyway, I go in there and I’m asking somebody, you know, “What do you do with—how do you score a roller skating championship?” I thought it was races, but it wasn’t, it was dancing on roller skates like ice skates. Anyway, they said, “Well, go see that lady over there.” And I look over and there’s some nice, tall, blond lady with a big—I remember she had this fur coat on with a beautiful, white fur collar on it and everything else, and it had a sign on it, “Judge,” and she had all the ribbons hanging down, and the sign on it said “Mrs. Salsinger.” It was my boss’s wife! I didn’t even know it, apparently that’s why I was there. He didn’t say anything, never said anything, so I figured, what the hell, if I do a good job on this I’ll get a little pillow talk maybe, you know. So I went over and talked to her and she was very friendly and very helpful and everything else. I think that helped me move up in the sports department a little bit.</p>
<p>But anyway, when I went in the Marines, I was--in 1951, was the last—I was-- by that time I was covering high school football. I’d done some of that when I was in high school at Denby, I was the Denby reporter for the <i>Detroit News</i>, for an old guy named Harvey Barkus who was one of the reporters there who did Detroit football, that was all he did, Detroit league. So I did his—I’d call him in with the score and a few names, and I covered basketball and football and other sports for the news. I remember my first check was ten bucks I think. And that was—anyway, I—</p>
<p>WW: So, you continued to be a sports writer throughout the fifties?</p>
<p>PW: Yeah, yeah, well what I did was I—in 1950 I actually rose to be a sports writer and I was in there, you know, for—well, not doing anything great, I was just working in the sports department, I’d been in there about two, three years by then. I graduated in 1948, so ’48, ’49, ’50—yeah, I’d been there three, four years, in sports as a copy boy and then as—I spent about a year as a reporter, young—the lowest-rated reporter there. So when I went in the service I was talking—I was interviewed in the service. During boot camp they take everybody in and they give you a military operational specialty number. So you can either be, like, 0100’s a grunt, you know, and the 0200 series is a little bit higher than a grunt. And I was in a 43 series, I was a combat correspondent, so that’s what I was assigned to be, for whatever reason. All I was doing was basically assigning me to the PR department, which the Marine Corps has always been big on PR anyway, you can tell by the ads [laughs]. Anyway, I went in the service, started in the 43-12 assignment, and when I came out in ’53, I was released at the convenience of the government. They just cleaned out the marine corps, once the armistice was assigned in point—oh, Jesus—up at the thirty-eighth parallel. Anyway, they—I came back and I was a reporter. I was also married and I had one child, my son, Peter. My first wife at the time—when I got out I was a buck sergeant, my wife had been a woman marine, and she was a sergeant, when I got married I was a corporal at the time. She was on recruiting duty in Philadelphia, and I came back to the <i>Detroit News</i>. Yeah.</p>
<p>WW: As you were working at the <i>Detroit News</i> throughout the fifties and early sixties—</p>
<p>PW: I’m sorry?</p>
<p>WW: As you were working at the <i>Detroit News</i> in the early fifties—I mean, in the late fifties, early sixties, was there any talk of community tension in the city?</p>
<p>PW: Not that I know of. And in fact, I was looking up something today, about the irony of the ’67 riot. The week before—the week before—no, the month before the riot, in Baltimore, they’d had a couple of riots in Baltimore—</p>
<p>WW: Newark.</p>
<p>PW: I’m sorry, in Newark. I’m not sorry, I’m getting mixed up with Washington, and they’d had a couple riots in Newark. But was it the week before or the month before? I think it was--</p>
<p>WW: It was only a couple weeks before.</p>
<p>PW: A couple weeks before. Well, the U.S. Open was there a couple of weeks later, and it was at Baltusrol, which is right outside, it was in—by that time I was covering golf, I was covering all kinds of things, and by ’67—and I—actually, just to back up a minute, when I came back from the Marines I started getting real hot assignments. I covered Michigan football, I covered Michigan State football, I covered Notre Dame. I covered football, basketball, baseball, all that kind of stuff. I was always the second man on different jobs, I was the second man—I was like the guy with the locker room after the game, and wrote the locker room story. I wrote the notes. We always had somebody who was covering hockey or covering football or something. I covered a lot—and I learned a lot by being the second guy, just hanging around. I get to know the players better than the writers would.</p>
<p>But anyway, that riot in New Jersey?</p>
<p>WW: Yep.</p>
<p>PW: Yeah. The Open was in June—yeah, it was June 16. I remember that because Arnold Palmer—Nicklaus and Palmer, and Nicklaus won it and set a record.</p>
<p>Anyway, I—there’d been the riot a couple weeks before, and I’d been planning to take my son, Peter, who was then—what was he, 14, something like that. I was going to take him on the road to the U.S. Open. And everybody said, “You know, there’s riots. You know riots,” you know, “So what, that’s all taken care of. Don’t worry about it.” I think as much to say that to my wife as anybody else. So I took—I was going to take Peter with me, and I took him and the guys that I knew from golf writers and everybody else there said to me, you know, “You’ve got your kid here, you know, after all that happened a couple weeks before?” And I said—they said, “Aren’t you afraid? We hear there’s going to be riots in Detroit. There might be a riot--” Or they didn’t say that, they said, “Detroit’s kind of a ripe place for the same kind of stuff that happened here.” And this is a couple weeks before what happened, and I said, you know—</p>
<p>WW: Are those journalists from other places?</p>
<p>PW: Yeah, journalists. Jerry Eisenberg from the <i>New York Star Ledger</i>, two or three other guys that I knew from out there. And those New York guys were always like, yeah, talking out of the side of their mouth and telling you that the world’s going to end or something, you know, they always had some kind of—everybody was—I found that writing and spending years with those guys, that they all had a doomsday theory about everything, so [laughs]. But I said—and I remember telling them, and I remember the line vividly because I was thinking about it when the stuff hit in Detroit. I would tell them, “No, guys in Detroit aren’t going to riot, they have to get up and go to work in the morning, they’ve got jobs.” I mean, that was my, you know—for what it’s worth, as stupid as it sounds, that’s what I—that was my rational for going to Jersey, because ah, that’s just something that came up, it’ll go away. You know, that’s how much of a prognosticator I am.</p>
<p>WW: Well that brings us to ’67 then.</p>
<p>PW: Yeah.</p>
<p>WW: Where were you living in ’67?</p>
<p>PW: I was living in Harrison Township, right up around Ship Road and Jefferson, right where it curves up there, right off the lake. I had been living in St. Clair Shores. The first house I bought in St. Clair Shores I bought when my daughter was born in ’55, and my son was born in ’53, Peter was born in ’53. But I had started making a little money. I was working for—by that time, because of a lot of connections I had in covering sports and everything else, I was working. I started out working doing stuff for <i>Time Magazine</i>, and I started working, because I was working at Time Inc., I started doing stuff for <i>Life Magazine</i>, just as a stringer. And then <i>Sports Illustrated</i> came along, and the <i>SI</i> guys, they were—they had an office up in the Fisher Building, and they had <i>Time</i>, <i>Life,</i> <i>House and Home</i>, <i>Fortune</i>, and they added <i>Sports Illustrated</i>. Well, these guys who were doing all these other things weren’t into sports much, and a guy named Nick <span style="text-decoration: underline;">Timish</span> (?) was in there with two or three reporters that they had in the Fisher Building, because they were covering the auto industry and other suppliers and things. And they—so I—Nick sort of invented whatever <i>Sports Illustrated</i> wanted. Well, after about a year of him juggling two things, during that year Nick, every time he got in a jam, he’d call me and say, “Would you do this thing, would you cover this thing for me? Would you write this, or would you go dig up this information?” And when I was working <i>Time Magazine</i> they were paying ten bucks an hour. Like, you know, is your talent worth a little more than ten bucks an hour? How many hours did I work—well, I worked two—well, twenty bucks—well, <i>Sports Illustrated</i> was paying like yard goods. You know, well that’s worth a hundred and that’s worth two hundred. And they had various sections in the book that were worth money, so I began to work for them, so I was making pretty good dough on the side, working for all kinds of people. That’s why I bought the house up there, that’s where I was living, and my kids were going to Lans Cruise Schools up there, Peter and Patty.</p>
<p>WW: How did you first hear about what was going on in the city?</p>
<p>PW: What was going on in the city?</p>
<p>WW: Yeah, in ’67, how did you hear about it?</p>
<p>PW: On the morning of the riot there was a double header with the Yankees at Briggs Stadium, and I had decided it was—what was that, July—</p>
<p>WW: 23.</p>
<p>PW: 23. That Sunday morning. And I had decided three or four days ago I wanted to take the kids to a ball game. So I packed my two kids, Patty and Peter, my older two kids, in the car and went down to the ballpark. And I got there a little bit early, and because it was a double header they started with a game at 11:00 instead of 1:00, or 12:00 instead of 1:00, or something. I remember getting there a little bit early, and the cops in downtown Detroit—the street cops in downtown Detroit—I went in on the freeway, didn’t see a thing, didn’t notice anything, and pulled out and went to the ballpark. And I pulled into the players’ parking lot, where I – I always parked in the players’ parking lot – and the cop in there, a guy named Carl—I can get you the last name, but it escapes me right now. Carl was there and he was assigned to the traffic division, and all the traffic guys always wore white hats, but Carl had on a blue hat. He had a garrison cap with a brim on it, and the top was always white, you could tell then the traffic—when they’re out stopping traffic and doing things, you knew who the traffic cops were; he wasn’t just some motorcycle cop or something. And Carl had a blue cap on, so I asked him, “What’s with the blue cap?” He says, “What’s with the blue cap?” He says, “For – you didn’t hear what’s going on? What are you doing here with your kids?” And I said, “What the hell, what’s happening?” And he said, “Well, there’s a big—shit hit the fan up on Twelfth Street.” And I said, hm. I hadn’t had the radio on, or it wasn’t on the radio, and I believe that there was a certain amount of censorship—</p>
<p>WW: There was a blackout.</p>
<p>PW: Yeah, a blackout that went on. So I didn’t know anything. So, I pulled in the parking lot, get out with the kids, Carl says, “Yeah,” he says, “come on.” We went over and got on the elevator, and it was the elevator the runs to the press box on the third deck of Tigers Stadium. Well, before you go up the long ramp and out to the press box, the elevator’s back here, and then you’ve got to go quite a distance out to get into the long tunnel, there’s a door out onto the roof. That’s for the guys that service the lights and everything else from the elevator, so we went out on the roof, and we walked around the side of the roof and Carl points up, and you could see all of the smoke rising, everything else. And I—he said, you know, he said, “You’d better get these kids out of here,” and I said, “Fine with me.” So I—so he said, “Don’t take the freeway back.” And I said, “I just came in on the freeway.” He said, “Jesus, don’t take the freeway out, there’s snipers on the freeway.” Because I would take the freeway up [Michigan Highway]10 and then hang a right on [Interstate] 94 to come out here. And he said, “No, stay off the freeway.” So I went onto Gratiot—the ballpark was at Michigan and Trumbull, and I went down Michigan Avenue into downtown Detroit. Didn’t see much of anything down there, it wasn’t clogged up like it is now on Sunday morning. And I drove through and went over and cut over and started up Gratiot Avenue, and went by Beaubien, and I see 10, 15 cops out on Beaubien, and they’re all dressed, they’ve even got their badges covered. I guess target practice, you know, so they-- and they had barricades up. I looked up Beaubien and the police [unintelligible] and saw there was all the—I was heading out and there was a little skirmish. I could see some skirmishes here and there going out Gratiot. One at St. Jean, one at Van Dyke where the Sears store was at Van Dyke, there was one there. I don’t know whether they were rioting or not, it wasn’t rioting, I didn’t think they were rioting. But they were milling about, you know. And I went straight out Gratiot Avenue and all the way out in Roseville or someplace and then cut over and shot the kids home.</p>
<p>And I stayed home for a day that day, I didn’t start going in until the next day. And I went in late the next day, just to—I made some phone calls, and, you know, things were pretty well shut down. But during the three or four days I was there, you know, they had locked down the bars. You know, nobody could get into a bar except if you knew who the bar owner was. And the Lindell AC, which you guys have all heard of, I’m sure, on Cass and Michigan Avenue, was a big sports bar. It had been in a hotel across the street that had been torn down. We always called it the cocktail lounge of the Lindell Hotel, it had about ten rooms up above the bar, and then it moved across the street and it was a big sports hang out. And I remember driving down there by myself, and I—the other bar that was open was Leo Derderian’s Anchor Bar, which was over just a couple blocks, it was on Fifth—let me see, Fourth—Lafayette and Fourth, Fifth— Sixth and Lafayette, there was a big old warehouse area and Leo had a bar downstairs where all the book—and it was funny because the cops and newspaper guys all knew these guys, and we could get in, and in fact those were the kind of places where we went if we got a late assignment to go someplace and we couldn’t get any money out of the treasury at the <i>Detroit News</i>, we’d go to Leo and borrow money from him, he’d give us money and a little chit and—knowing that we’d come back and pay him as soon as we got our travel expenses paid at the end of the trip.</p>
<p>Anyways, there was a segregation among these—yeah I’ll stop doing that—the segregation among these two bars that Leo Derderian there off of Lafayette, which was right across the street from the federal building, that’s where all the feds went, and they wanted a drink or they wanted something to eat during the riot. And Leo—and Jimmy and Johnny Butsicaris ran the Lindell AC, and there were the regular street cops and then other guys, newspaper guys and other people that they knew. Anyway, I went to the Lindell, and Johnny Butsicaris – Jimmy, his brother, older brother, tough little guy. He’s sitting out—they’ve got everything locked off in the front, and he’s sitting by the back door right across from the parking lot on a chair leaning against the wall, he’s got a shot gun on his lap. I said, “What are you doing.” He said, “Well, I ain’t letting anybody in here.” So I go inside and I have a hamburger, and Johnny Butsicaris comes and he says, “Now, you’re running around downtown, have you got a gun?” And I said, “No, I don’t have any gun, I don’t carry a gun.” He said, “Come on upstairs,” and leads me upstairs into his office up there and he opens a drawer and he’s got, like, ten guns in his drawer. He said, “What kind do you want?” And the only one I knew was a .45 from the marine corps. And he said—I said—he said, “You got to have bullets. Hold on.” And he gave me a clip to put in the handle of the .45, which I didn’t do at the time. And I took it out, and he said, “Yeah, bring it back when the riot’s over.” And that pretty much was their attitude. There were places you could go, in other words, you know. And I’m not too sure the general public went there, but it wasn’t exactly destitute, so.</p>
<p>WW: Did you get to do any special reporting for the <i>Detroit News</i> during that time?</p>
<p>PW: No, no. I was a sports writer, you know, sports was down. All I did—in fact, I was thinking of that whole thing today as I—I was out for a little while doing something this morning, and I—when I came up the driveway, walking up the driveway here, I saw a big jet, four engine jet, which is a tanker, the refueling— air-to-air refueling tanker from Selfridge. Normally they come across the lake and go to Selfridge. This one, they’d come right across here, and it was—I could tell it was a tanker because it had the little—the hose sticking out the back end with the wings on it, you know? And I used to sit in my yard up at Harrison Township and watch these things, back in the days when we were afraid the Russians were going to come over the North Pole, and we were—and we had what they called the pine tree chain, which constantly had B-2 bombers in the air, and they have to go up and refuel them. Well, they refueled a lot, most of them from here, from Selfridge Field, in this area up in the north of Canada. They would go way up in Alberta and come back.</p>
<p>WW: Did you do any other driving around during that week?</p>
<p>PW: Yeah, I drove around the town. You know, I think the big bulk of the trouble must have been centered someplace where I didn’t go anyway, most of the time. So I didn’t see—I don’t recall ever seeing—of course my memory’s not that great, at my age. Things will come to me, you know. But I don’t recall much of anything. I didn’t—I wasn’t looking for trouble, and I wasn’t assigned to do anything, you know? All I was doing—the kind of stuff I was writing—when was that, ’67? I didn’t start writing a column until ’72. So I was still a—I was a reporter, but in—but I was covering golf—no, covering baseball. This is—that was ’67, right?</p>
<p>WW: Yeah.</p>
<p>PW: Yeah. Oh, hell. Now the Tigers were—I think I went—I know along toward the end of the season I went on the road with the Tigers for about ten games. Well, in any case, yeah.</p>
<p>WW: How do you refer to ’67? Do you use the term riot?</p>
<p>PW: Yeah, yeah. I mean, people have said civil disturbance or this or that, you know, the polite terms. I guess if I was going to explain it to a stranger, I’d—hm. I’ve never had to explain it to a stranger [laughs], you know? I was just—people tend to—people I talk to, if it ever comes up in conversation, it’s the year of the riots. Yeah.</p>
<p>WW: Did you look at the city of Detroit differently after that?</p>
<p>PW: No, not much. You know, I’d been—I’d covered boxing, for instance, at the old Arena Gardens, strangely enough, this place that I’d grown up in and everything else, was the first place that they had boxing. When I came back in 1953 there were regular Tuesday night fights there, there was Olympia Stadium, there was—every Friday night there was a fight there, they’d hold International Boxing Club. It was—had James T. Norris, president, was out of New York, where they were running fights all over the country in various cities. And consequently, I spent, you know, a lot of time in Detroit. And I spent a lot of time in the black side of Detroit too. There was a—if you’ll pardon the expression—there was a guy who used to be Joe Louis’ and his managers’—can’t think of his name, it’ll come to me—anyway, he was his traveling secratry Just died a couple years ago. Little guy named Fred [Ginard ?]. And Fred owned a house on Orchestra Place, right back of the old Gotham Hotel, which was right up the street from Gotham Hotel, which was a—you might say a blind pig and a whore house, and it was really strange. It was this old Victorian mansion. Freddy had his uncle who worked the door, and it was the place you would get a drink anytime you wanted—you know, after all the bars were closed, everything was down, you could always go to Freddy’s. And one thing about Freddy is he never took any money for anything, because he didn’t want it if he got arrested by the liquor control commission, he would say, “These are all my friends, I just – ” So he could be honest and say—of course, he sold other things, so. And he sold—but if you wanted to come in there for a drink, you know, which all of us did, most of the guys, we would—you’d have to call, and he had his uncle was working the door, and they had a big entrance hall, and you had to call ahead and he said, “Well, don’t come for 25 minutes.” You know, so you wouldn’t see people passing, I guess. He never said that, but he kept a – Sam Green, it was, the baseball writer for the News, Doc Green, who was a columnist later, the guy I succeeded as a columnist, he always kept—because the night games ran so late, Sam would go over there after at 3:00 in the morning, and he always kept a watermelon in the refrigerator for Sam, because Sam was from Texas or Louisiana or someplace, and he liked watermelon.</p>
<p>WW: Just a couple of quick wrap-up questions.</p>
<p>PW: Yeah.</p>
<p>WW: How do you feel about the state of the city today?</p>
<p>PW: The what?</p>
<p>WW: State of the city of Detroit today.</p>
<p>PW: State of it, it’s great. I think it’s coming along. I think [Mayor] Duggan’s a good guy. You know, [Mayor] Coleman [Young], you’ve probably heard my—all of my associations with—you might be too young to have read—I was—gained quite a bit of notoriety for tweaking Coleman. In fact, I’m in the little red book of quotations by Chairman Coleman Young. And, yeah, we—I always thought that—people would always ask me where Detroit was and if it was ever going to rise, and my theory was, you know, for 30 years it hit rock bottom and stayed there, it just kept bouncing along. But sooner or later things got better. When Coleman finally retired and opened a job up to some other people. I’d been—you know, I was here through several mayors and, you know, Cobo, Al Cobo, and—</p>
<p>WW: Cavanagh.</p>
<p>PW: Yeah, Jerry. Jerry was there during the riot, he had Ray Girardin as the police commissioner, a former <i>Detroit Times</i> reporter. And—I think it’s done very well, frankly, you know. Did well by me.</p>
<p>WW: Talking about ’67, do you find that it’s important?</p>
<p>PW: Do I find it what?</p>
<p>WW: That it’s important talking about ’67?</p>
<p>PW: Sure. I think everybody—yeah. Why? Because it’s an important part of the history in the city. It’s a—you know, a certain—that kind of stuff happens. I mean, if you go back and read—go through history and see a lot of more horrible things have happened in cities in other eras. And it happened in several places, and basically turned out to be pretty good for the city. In fact, I was in favor of Coleman Young getting elected. And, you know, I figured it’s a black city basically in those—but in those days, you see, it was like almost 50:50, it was like 51:49. And my theory about Coleman always was that he had—he finally made it, got to 51, and the 49—he couldn’t import any more black voters if he was going to run again in four years, so what he’d better do is drive off some of the white voters. And that was quite a popular theory in those days. Whether it was right or wrong, I don’t know. But what occurred was he drove out some of the white voters. I knew—Coleman knew, the minute he got elected, he knew he was elected for as long as he was going to be there, because he—his very presence was going to diminish—I don’t think he intentionally neglected areas, but certain areas did get neglected. And then, you know, there were a lot of other things going on to with the—I had a cop living across the street from me up here who was lieutenant in the Detroit police department. Lived here for years, all the way through residency, over near Balduck Park on the east side over here. There were half a dozen—they used to call it the Copper Canyon over here, and these guys would tell them to buy a house, use it for their address and they’d sleep there while they were on duty. And then he’d go home to Roseville and St. Clair Shores and other places like that. Everybody was cheating and it got to the point where internal affairs couldn’t handle it. Jim Bannon, who was the executive deputy police chief that Coleman had appointed, Jim moved up pretty fast. He had a house out on the west side, I’d been in that house. But he was living in Franklin Hills, because his wife had a lot of money and they had a big house out there. So, you know. I mean, I don’t think—I think the riot centered attention on where there were some real problems. You know, you talk about Twelfth Street and that area. My grandfather out at that station was a foot patrolman. He told me stories about walking up Twelfth Street, and there were a lot of Chinese up there, because in those—in the pre-World War I days, there were a lot of, you know, a lot of building going on, and there were a lot of Chinese who built the railroads all the way across the country. Chinese laborers. And there were a lot of them here in Detroit, the west side. And they had dope houses up in there, and they had racks, and he said, “I’m on foot patrol, I’d walk through just to make sure nobody died or, you know, somebody didn’t need something, or—“ They were right out the next door and never paid attention to anybody, the opium houses. You know. Things come around, so.</p>
<p>WW: Thank you so much for sitting down with us today.</p>
<p>PW: Thank you.</p>
<p>WW: I really appreciate it.</p>
Original Format
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Audio
Duration
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52min 04sec
Interviewer
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William Winkel
Interviewee
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Peter Waldmeir
Location
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Grosse Pointe Woods
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Peter Waldmeir, March 24th, 2017
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview, Peter Waldmeir share his memories of growing up in the city of Detroit and waiting for his older brother to come home during the 1943 Race Riots. After he graduated high school, he briefly attended Wayne State University and talks about how he became a sports reporter for the Detroit News. He remembers how he and his children first heard about the unrest in the city at a Detroit Tigers double header against the Yankees and also discusses his later interactions with Mayor Coleman Young and the changes in the city during those years.
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
Date
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10/05/2017
Rights
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Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Format
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Audio/Mp3
Language
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en-US
Type
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Oral History
1967 riot—Detroit—Michigan
Copper Canyon
Detroit News
Detroit Police Department
Detroit Tigers
Mayor Coleman Young
United States Marine Corps
-
https://detroit1967.detroithistorical.org/files/original/6790a051060047741b55bbe6f52a824a.jpg
a1af5fc6830e3cb021c88546b07e18ed
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Detroit 67: Looking Back to Move Forward
Subject
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Stories gathered to commemorate the summer of 1967 in Detroit.
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
Rights
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Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Language
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en-us
Date
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10/20/2019
Oral History
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Narrator/Interviewee's Name
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Jesse Davis
Brief Biography
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Jesse Davis was born in Benham, Kentucky in 1944 and moved to Detroit when he was two years old. He had nine brothers and sisters and grew up in the Davison neighborhood. He served in the army for two years and still lives in Detroit.
Interviewer's Name
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Celeste Goedert
Interview Place
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Detroit, MI
Date
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011/29/2016
Interview Length
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01:04:44
Transcriptionist
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Julie Vandenboom
Transcription Date
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01/27/2017
Transcription
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<p>CG: So today is Tuesday, November 29, 2016. My name is Celeste Goedert and I'm here at the Detroit Historical Museum. This interview is for the Detroit 67 Oral History Project and today I'm sitting down with Jesse Davis. Thank you so much for sitting down with me today.</p>
<p>JD: Mmkay.</p>
<p>CG: Can you start by telling me where and when you were born?</p>
<p>JD: Okay, I was born in 1944, on Mother's Day, May 14, in Benham, Kentucky. Coal-mining country.</p>
<p>CG: Okay. And -</p>
<p>JD: In the Appalachian Mountains.</p>
<p>CG: All right. What was it like growing up there?</p>
<p>JD: Well, my family - my father didn't want us to be in the coal mine. So there was ten of us - six brothers, four sisters - so he moved us to Detroit. I got here when I was two years old.</p>
<p>CG: Okay. So most of your memories -</p>
<p>JD: So most of my memories are the city of Detroit. And I was raised up on Davison, at the end of the underpass, you know, the first expressway in Detroit. It was a full neighborhood, you know. I can say it was integrated, you know, like - or segregated - they had different spots of the neighborhood - we had Hamtramck right there, a lot of Polish people, then on the other side of Joseph Campau a lot of white people, then our section, was separate - where the underpass start - it was a neighborhood called Davison - it was a lot of - full neighborhood - everything, three or four movie theaters in the neighborhood, grocery store, everything. Everything you needed was right there in the neighborhood.</p>
<p>This was before Chrysler Expressway came through. You know, then when they start building on the Chrysler Expressway kind of tore the neighborhood up. You know, a lot of people moved out, this and that. Even today we still - the old timers and stuff - because we learned a lot - there was a lot of black-owned business and stuff there, and they taught us a lot of stuff, you know, like - when my father died I was young. I was about six years old. When I was about eight, guys in the barber shop knew my father so they gave me a job there and stuff, you know. That was - you know - because they knew my mother had a lot of kids. [laughter] We had a large family, you know. Every little bit helps.</p>
<p>CG: So you were eight years old when you started working at the barber shop?</p>
<p>JD: Yeah.</p>
<p>CG: And what was that like?</p>
<p>JD: I wasn't doing too much. Sweeping up hair off the floor. Going to the store for people, stuff like that. But they taught me a lot, you know. Taught me a lot about life and stuff. Because they knew my father, so they took to me. They taught me how when I go to the store - that little change, don't give the change back. [laughter] Keep that in your pocket. Break the five dollars down into singles and stuff, so if they want to give you a tip, they'll give you a tip. They don't, they don't. So they taught me how to respect money and stuff, you know. They took their time teaching me little stuff, how you got to respect money and money will respect you. Always keep your job, do the best you can on your job and stuff.</p>
<p>I grew up with some - when I said, a lot of morals about life. And like a lot of the things I learned back then stick with me now. And then my mother, you know, she knew how to deal with all those kids she had. Lady of few words.</p>
<p>CG: You said there were ten of you?</p>
<p>JD: Beg pardon?</p>
<p>CG: There were ten of you?</p>
<p>JD: Ten of us. And then she - we had three cousins stay with us too, so we had a lot of people in the house. And then my older brothers and sisters going back and forth, they were in the military and stuff like that. So everybody helped out at the house and stuff. We was a close family, you know. Still is. Life wasn't that bad. We didn't have much but we didn't know that. We didn't know we was poor. [laughter] Everything's, you know, everything.</p>
<p>CG: Do you have any other memories of growing up in that area?</p>
<p>JD: Sure. You know, like, the area was a full area. We had recreation and stuff, before Motown and all like that, we had a recording studio, we had a baseball team, a football team, basketball team, swimming team, boxing team, all from this recreation - Elizabeth Recreation Center on Davison. Before the expressway came through there. So like - again, it was today, we have a luncheon once a year for the elementary schools and the junior high schools because everybody was close, everybody knew everybody, you know, from house to house, we all knew each other.</p>
<p>So Davison, Cleveland, and Washington. Cleveland was a junior high school, Davison and Washington was elementary schools. It was today – we have a luncheon once a year, you know, so all the old-timers and stuff get together. We also - that neighborhood today is depleted. A lot of vacant lots, this and that. But we get - we got a club, about two hundred of us and stuff. We get a picnic once a year. Four or five thousand people there at the picnic. We cut the grass at the vacant lots, have DJs out there, but the tents up, have horseback riding. These are the people from the old neighborhood, trying to teach the new ones how close we was. A lot of us still close, we're still good friends and stuff, and that's fifty, sixty years. But like, we just try to keep things going so the younger people - you know, there's more to life than at each other's throats</p>
<p>And then a lot of them that moved out of town, they come back in town just for the picnic or for the luncheon. They come back as far away as California, Colorado, different places. New York. Those people have moved out. They doing their things. Then we find out who's no longer with us and stuff - they read obituaries and stuff on the people in the neighborhood. Like I said, it was a close-knit neighborhood.</p>
<p>And then the expressway came through there and - Chrysler Expressway, 75, they kind of divided everything, scattered everybody out.</p>
<p>CG: Do you remember when that happened?</p>
<p>JD: Yeah. You know, it was before I went into the service. I went into the service when they drafted me, in 1967.</p>
<p>CG: They drafted you in 1967.</p>
<p>JD: Yeah. May 1. The same day Mohammed Ali posted - went to the draft. And we supposed to go to the same place, Fort Knox Kentucky. I was there, you know, but he didn't show up. [laughter] You know, they had started on the expressway when I left for the military. So it was in the middle Sixties, I guess, when they started the expressway. Then when I came back in '69, they still was working on it.</p>
<p>CG: Had you noticed how things had already changed at that point?</p>
<p>JD: Yeah. Started changing because they tore down a lot of the businesses and stuff, because they came straight down Davison. A lot of the black-owned businesses were no longer there, because - it was different. It was different. And before then, Detroit had - we had some millions of people in Detroit. We had a lot of stuff, that a lot of the young people could go to, like they had dance places and stuff, they had roller-skating rinks, they had all kinds of stuff. They had Belle Isle. Everything, you know. You could - life was okay.</p>
<p>And then things started changing. Especially like - okay. I went into the service in 1967. Okay, had basic training. And you asked me about the riot and stuff. I finished basic training, they gave us a 24-hour pass. We wasn't supposed to go but about a hundred miles, so I could have went to Louisville, Kentucky, this and that, but I had made a little money playing poker. And a friend of mine that I knew from Detroit, we both was from Detroit, we say, we can make it and get back in time. And so I pay for him and me. Plane ticket, to get to Detroit. We was going to come right back. Stay overnight, catch a flight out that morning, so we would be back.</p>
<p>CG: Was this in July?</p>
<p>JD: Yeah. In that 24-hour period, that weekend pass we had, we could have made it in time. But the people running us from the airport, they dropped us off on Twelfth, because I knew quite a few people on Twelfth and stuff, that was on Twelfth. We had our uniforms on. And then - in the evening, later on at night - we was enjoying ourselves, we went to a couple clubs, this and that - enjoying ourselves. And then chaos broke out on Twelfth and Clairmount. A lot of people was - police was - running these people out of this building. Somebody told me it was an after-hours place. They was arguing with the police, police trying to keep order and this and that. There was a couple police, so they call for some more police. So another car - police car - pulls up. And then this lady - because the police was manhandling her boyfriend or whatever it was - somebody seen it - she argued with the police, got up in his face, and he hit her with a flashlight.</p>
<p>CG: Where was this?</p>
<p>JD: On Twelfth and Clairmount.</p>
<p>CG: Do you remember where - which establishment you were at?</p>
<p>JD: Well, I was in the street, with the crowd then. Because the crowd had got big, because there was a lot of people coming out the after-hours place. And then cars of police was coming up, and they was - the crowd was unruly, the police got rougher. Like, they hit the girl with the flashlight - they hit the police. Throwing stuff at the police cars as they pulled up and stuff. But the crowd was so big. Chaos broke out. The crowd was big. That's when they started breaking windows and stuff and pawn shops and all kinds - clothing stores, everything. Because Twelfth Street was a full street. There was quite a few streets in Detroit had all kinds of stuff. They got to breaking windows and taking stuff out of the buildings and stuff. It got real rowdy and stuff. So me and my friend, I stayed a little bit too far. He stayed closer. He stayed in the projects, in Brewster Projects. So me and him left and went there. But so much trouble in Detroit had got to breaking out. Fires and all kinds of stuff, all parts of the city, so it was like a curfew, and I couldn't get from his house to my house. So I was stuck down there a couple days.</p>
<p>CG: And what street was your house on?</p>
<p>JD: On Fleming, right off of Davison. You know, like - I called my people and stuff. Let them know I was in Detroit. They wanted to come get me but it was so much stuff happening in Detroit. In the daytime, a couple days later, or a day later, my family came down and got me, because the curfew wasn't in the daytime, it was in the evening. And then like, stuff was all over the city. But so much stuff going on, the police let the people do what they wanted to do. So they was - it wasn't no race riot. It was like - people just getting stuff, breaking windows, furniture, TVs. It was everywhere, because the police be right there but wasn't doing anything, I guess they had orders not to do anything. And then it got so bad then the military came in.</p>
<p>CG: Were you still there when the National Guard was called in?</p>
<p>JD: I couldn't get out the city. I tried, man - my friend -</p>
<p>CG: You were stuck?</p>
<p>JD: Allan Trice, the friend of mine - was the next day, trying to get a flight out of there, but they had shut all that down. I couldn't get out of there. So I called my base in Fort Knox, Kentucky, and tried to tell my commander that I couldn't get out the city - "You got no business being there, that's over a hundred miles!" Said I'm sorry about that, but this is what the truth is, this is where I'm at. I let him know, so I knew I was in trouble, so he told me, said like, "What I want you to do is bring me some newspapers from Detroit." So that's what I'll do, bring some newspapers, as soon as I can get out of here.</p>
<p>It took me ten days to get out of Detroit. Before they opened up the airport, before they opened up the streets. I got back to Fort Knox, had three or four newspapers for him and stuff, let him know that this is where I was at. And then they had it on - they shut the city down, and all like that. So I didn't get in too much trouble and stuff, but I had to do a whole lot of extra work.</p>
<p>And then when I got back, Detroit was different, because they had burned down a lot of stuff.</p>
<p>CG: Just to go back really quickly - you were there just before everything broke out?</p>
<p>JD: When it broke out.</p>
<p>CG: Were you near the after-hours joint?</p>
<p>JD: I was right on the street, a couple blocks away, and hurried up to see what was going on down there. And was right outside the building where they was coming out, so I was right there. It was just - had been in the military, this was the first time I had got a pass - a weekend pass - and this is what I run into. But like before I went into the military, it was a lot of unrest in a lot of different cities, and Detroit got to feeling it too because we had - to be truthful, we had a police force that had - what they call it - STRESS -</p>
<p>CG: Or the Big Four.</p>
<p>JD: The Big Four. And they had a special force called STRESS. We called it STRESS, because they used to set a lot of people up, that wouldn't even be thinking about a crime. And come to the crime, and then - the way I believe, in the neighborhood, if they set you up and would kill you, or hurt you and put a weapon on you, you know. Because, like I witnessed this white guy going into this club, acting like he was drunk, flashing money, dropping money all on the floor, acting like he's unstable, then when he went outside, a couple guys, I guess they was going to rob him, when they went out there and confronted him - STRESS or the Big Four, they surrounded these guys, beat them pretty bad. So it was a lot of unrest.</p>
<p>CG: Do you remember what year that was? Around what time?</p>
<p>JD: Well, okay, I was in the military - I went to Fort - it was like in the early '68 because I was in New Jersey, came home on a weekend pass, went to this club. And I witnessed that. It was a club - kind of a little club, it was on Woodward and - Woodward and Collingwood, something like that. And then when we come outside to see what was going on, four, five police cars, unmarked - had the two guys, beating them. Because back then, slowly turning your head - what they call it, black power, everybody stuck together. So there was so much stuff happening, that wasn't right with the police and the communities and stuff. We stopped everything and gathered around. We wanted to know what they did, this and that. Don't be beating them and stuff like that. If they did something wrong, you ain't got to beat them like that. Lock them up but don't be beating them all out here in the street and stuff.</p>
<p>So there was a lot of unrest, not only in Detroit, a lot of other cities and stuff. When I was up in New Jersey, I'd go on leave, I’d go to Philadelphia, I'd go to New York, Boston, everything was right there near Fort Dix, New Jersey. You know, didn't take long to get to - there was a lot of unrest in a lot of big cities, you know.</p>
<p>I believe that's where a lot of stuff came from - Vietnam. Then the military - I was glad I was in the military because a lot of this stuff was going on and I didn’t have to be a part of. You know, when I went to Germany in '68, that's when Martin Luther King got killed. Even over in Germany was a whole lot of unrest and stuff. You know, in the military, black soldiers - and we didn't take it out on the white soldiers, but it was like the establishment, you know. Like something needed to be did. The only thing our people can do is black power. We stuck together. We wasn’t trying to do this and that. We just stuck together with each other. We're in this together, you know. And it was like that across the country. I was out of the country, but I had letters and you know, all kinds of stuff was going on, including in my neighborhood and stuff. That things had changed. In Detroit, all these burned out buildings, this and that, there was a lot of businesses got wiped out - the expressway wiped a lot of stuff out - but after the riot, a lot of business owners, they moved out of the city.</p>
<p>And then Coleman Young, when he got elected - he dismantled STRESS and all like that, because that's what the people wanted. They wanted the police to be from Detroit. Not the suburbs. So it was a lot of unrest in a lot of places. But to me, Detroit was never a race riot because the neighborhoods - we might have stayed in another neighborhood but we played sports together. I played basketball, I used to go down to Hamtramck and play basketball and stuff, with the guys, no problems. No problems. And we went to school together. No problems, no problems.</p>
<p>I could never say it was a race riot. Because to me, I didn't see it. It was just like - when that broke out, it was like - people just took stuff they thought they needed, or it was there so they took it. They had to break a window or run into a store, whatever, because there wasn't nobody there to stop them. The police - they was - until the military came in, and the military, they put their foot down. So they came in with some rules, with the curfew, with the set down, with everything. And I was glad I was in the military so I could get out of there as soon as they opened up the airport. And that's what I did. I was here ten days.</p>
<p>CG: Do you remember seeing the National Guard and the federal troops around?</p>
<p>JD: Yeah. It was everywhere. It was everywhere. And they - the word was, that they had just come from Vietnam, so they was combat-ready. You can hear some of the tanks, because they had tanks and everything. You could hear, every now and then, one of those tanks firing. And they were saying on the news and stuff it was snipers in the building. They evacuated the building, they got the snipers out, they let off a few rounds from those tanks and stuff. Then they had opened up Belle Isle - the people they were arresting and stuff, the jails were so full. They were just packing them all in Belle Isle. Like a camp or something. So I'm glad - right. A lot of stuff was going on those ten days I was here. My family wouldn't let me go out there.</p>
<p>CG: Did they mostly stay in the house?</p>
<p>JD: Well, in our neighborhood, because we knew everybody. And we even knew the police and everything. Because when I was younger, you're standing out, hanging out, the police tell you to go home, and then they come back, you're still there and stuff. They wouldn't take you to jail. They'll snatch you up, might slap you upside the head, but they take you home and throw you on your front porch because they was part of the neighborhood.</p>
<p>It's a lot different now. And then, that's why I was telling you earlier - it's a lot of unrest in the country now. I hope things don't get back like that, because everybody lose. Don't nobody win. So why should you tamper your own stuff? Because that's what they did. A lot of the businesses left Detroit, so Detroit been hurting a long time, so I'm glad it's coming back. Because I hadn't witnessed a lot of it - you know, for two, three million people down to seven thousand - that's a lot of people left here. And it hurt the city. But now, there's hope. There's hope, because people coming back - they're building and stuff. You can see some kind of hope, some kind of future for Detroit.</p>
<p>Always been the Motor City. Motown, Motor City and stuff. To me, like, I love Detroit. We put the world on the road. World War Two, we helped turn these assembly lines in. So we had a big hand in winning World War Two. Turning the assembly lines into making tanks and jeeps and stuff, airplanes and everything. The assembly line helped a whole lot of businesses, so I'm kind of proud that Detroit was the first one with the assembly line, the first one with the expressway. A lot of stuff. So Detroit has a lot of history. A lot of history.</p>
<p>CG: Could you talk a little more about - you said you came back in 1969. And you saw that your neighborhood had changed because the freeway had been built and changed things. Was the barbershop still there?</p>
<p>JD: Yeah. Not - not the one that I was raised in, but some of the barbers that worked there did open up their own shop. They had to move locations and stuff, what was still left there, like the service drive - the service drive. I was older, I was doing my own thing - I had worked in the factories, so I went back to the factory.</p>
<p>CG: Oh, you did work factory.</p>
<p>JD: Okay, I started when I was like 18 at the forging plant - that was General Motors. I worked there four years. And then I got drafted. I was trying to get out of the draft. And then back then they had unemployment offices at the plants. So I took a friend of mine over to the Chrysler plant on Jefferson, so he could fill out an application, so I got hired there too. So I was working at General Motors and Chrysler. And so, like, it was the wrong time for me to get drafted.</p>
<p>CG: You got drafted while you were working at GM.</p>
<p>JD: Right. They gave me a notice - okay, back then, they had the draft cards. And you know when it's getting close, because you'll start off with one number, like 4-F or whatever it is, but when you get down to 1-A, you know it's getting close for them to draft you. Because they had Vietnam War going, and didn't nobody want to go there, because we didn't even know where Vietnam was. And then we thought it was political. That was another unrest in the country. Because - the same - okay, they had it, so if you go into school, then college or something, you didn't have to get drafted. And if you had a felony, you couldn't get drafted. But if you weren't in school at a certain age, you're going to get drafted nine out of ten times. And to be truthful - I tried to get a felony. Because I didn't want to go to Vietnam. Because in our neighborhood, it was like - it seemed like - every eligible black guy there was drafted.</p>
<p>CG: You knew a lot of people in your own neighborhood.</p>
<p>JD: Yeah, they was getting drafted, so I tried to get out of the draft, because I'm working at General Motors and Chrysler. Got my own apartment, had a brand new car. Didn't want to get drafted, so I tried to get a felony. So me and this friend of mine, had a convertible car. We go to the Brookside Motel. He get a room, I get a room. He 1-A, he had a draft notice too. So we took down pictures, lamps, all kinds of stuff. Put it in the car, so it could be seen. He had the top down. So we sit and waited on the police.</p>
<p>And so when I went to court, I had one of those mammas went the court with me. Told the judge, “He ain't never got in trouble in his life. Always had a little job, since he was eight years old. He got drafted, that's why he did this. He didn't want to go in the military.” So the judge gave me a choice. Go in the military for two years, or go to jail for five years. So my mama made my mind up for me. "He's going in the military. All his brothers were in the military. He's going in the military." And that's - okay, my mamma has spoke. I can't go against her. Went into the military.</p>
<p>CG: Your older brothers had already gone?</p>
<p>JD: Yeah.</p>
<p>CG: Were you the youngest?</p>
<p>JD: Out of the boys, I had one younger brother. He's deceased now. I had one younger brother, younger than me. But all my older brothers, the four were already in service, or had been in service. Two in the Marines, one in the Air Force, one in the Army. So they drafted me in the Army.</p>
<p>CG: And so you - just to go back a little bit, can you describe a little more what things looked like when you came back in 1969?</p>
<p>JD: When I came back in '69, I stayed about a half block off the street - Fleming off of Davison. They had started building the expressway, and I had worked at the barbershop. That was gone. I had worked at a little small grocery store after the barbershop. That was gone. Cross Davison, across the street, I worked at the supermarket called the Twin Store. He hired people in the neighborhood, so there was about three of us teenagers that worked there. This is before I went to General Motors. That was gone. They were still building on the expressway, so all this was tore up. The recreation was gone. That we had all the sports activities at. Everything was gone. The black-owned businesses and stuff, they was gone, because there was about three cleaners there, they all was gone. Barbershops, grocery stores, black-owned businesses and stuff, all them was gone. The shoe shop. Everything. The pawn shops. Everything. The movie theaters, they was gone. And then - I look at it today - on Davison it just was an extenuation of the underpass, they used to call it. They didn't have to tear that down, but they was building the Chrysler Freeway and tore up the whole neighborhood that I was raised up in.</p>
<p>And so like, everybody had moved out and that's why we give those little things once a year, so - it's like our reunion. Neighborhood reunion, because we was that close. Everybody on the street, in every house, I knew everybody. Same with everybody. We knew everybody in every house. The neighbors - my mom would be at work, I know not to do stuff in front of my neighbors, because they're going to come out there and get me. It's like that's the way it was. You didn't have to lock your doors. You could sleep on your front porch. Wasn't anybody going to mess with you.</p>
<p>And then like - kids played together, we all knew each other. And then the schools and stuff. And then that was another thing in Detroit. Different neighborhoods had a lot of stuff. Boxing team, swimming team, baseball - we challenged each other. Get track meets and stuff. Different neighborhoods and stuff. And then like there wasn't no time for no trouble. We had stuff to do. We had to train, so we could beat them swimming, or beat them boxing, or beat them playing basketball. It would just be another neighborhood that we'd be playing, but everybody got involved. The kids and the parents and everything else.</p>
<p>When I came back, a lot of that stuff was changing. Because we had all those burned out buildings, tore up buildings, burned out houses, vacant lots. A lot of the businesses moved out and stuff, that would hire the young people, kept them busy and stuff. A lot of them sponsored us, made sure we had uniforms, just to challenge other neighborhoods. These was the businesses and stuff. All this was gone.</p>
<p>So I'm grown to it now. But the people that was coming up behind me, they didn't have what we had. So it's a big difference. It's a big change in Detroit. A lot of people moved out, got to moving into the suburbs, moving out of the state, you know. Just getting away. After '67. They slowly started - as soon as they was able, they got up out of here. That's why, for millions to a few hundred thousand. You can see part of it now - a lot of these buildings that was occupied with businesses and stuff, factories and stuff like that, they're just vacant.</p>
<p>And then a lot of big businesses left and left their debris. Left their garbage and stuff. Didn't clean up their area. Just left. Big difference.</p>
<p>CG: Do you still live in Detroit now?</p>
<p>JD: Yes. Yeah, I'd say on the north end. Down right off of John R. Down Woodward, right across the Boulevard, they're building all this stuff, so we the next neighborhood from where they're building the rail and stuff at. But me and my wife, we're neighborhood activists. My wife, she's the president of the block club and stuff. I used to be the treasurer but it was like a conflict of interest so I stepped back. I'm just my wife's supporter now. We've got committees and stuff. Have a lot of volunteers coming in. We clean up a lot of blight and stuff like this. And we help the senior citizens, we get their porches fixed, get them painted and stuff like that. We do a lot of stuff. At this church down on Woodward, 8000 Woodward, that's where we have our meetings and stuff, once a month. And we - third Wednesday of the month - six o'clock. We deal with the City Council. We deal with the city. We do what we can.</p>
<p>And then she knew how I was raised, so she knows it's in me, because I kind of get upset when I - but after I take a second look at it because a lot of people wasn't raised the way I was raised, didn't have the family that I had, because I had a large family and we all stuck together then, the neighborhood stuck together and stuff. When I see people don't want to stick together, don't want to work together, I get upset. So a lot of times in the meetings I have to be quiet, because I will say something, you know. But my wife, she handles it pretty good, she run a pretty good meeting, and she has the right people and stuff there. And then when we need dumpsters and stuff, she's got people she can call from the city and get dumpsters when we're cleaning up the blight and cleaning up the neighborhood and stuff.</p>
<p>Then we've got senior citizens and stuff - it works out. Just ain't a lot you can do, but every little bit helps.</p>
<p>CG: So have you lived in Detroit your whole life?</p>
<p>JD: Well, I did a lot of traveling in the military, and then when I got out, me and my wife traveled a lot when we first got married and stuff. Vacations and stuff. We went to California, San Francisco, Miami. A lot of places and stuff and then I got a lot of family - family reunions, we have them in different spots, so we still go places.</p>
<p>CG: So is your family, are some of them still in Detroit? Are you guys -</p>
<p>JD: Well yeah, basically my immediate family is in Detroit. I lost two brothers and a sister, so there's seven of us. We all stay in Detroit. We keep in contact with each other and stuff.</p>
<p>CG: Then just to go back, you said - you said, it definitely wasn't a race riot. But I know some other people will call it the "uprising" or the "rebellion." Do you -</p>
<p>JD: It was like a rebellion. But I don't know if it would have started - but it was like a ticking time bomb. When that happened on Twelfth and Clairmount, it was like it lit the fuse. And then just spread it, because once they start knocking out windows and taking stuff, it's like somebody had poured gasoline on the fire. It just spread it. But it went on - because every nationality in Detroit, out there taking stuff because it was there. And then - I said it was like a rebellion against the establishment. And then I guess they joined the other part of the country because a lot of stuff was going on in different cities and stuff. And they might have been race riots - I don't know. Because I couldn't see it in Detroit. We had a lot of different nationalities in Detroit, but we all worked together.</p>
<p>I look back at it now. When I was growing up and stuff I played basketball with Davey Bush and Rockets Coach Tomjanovich and stuff. And they stayed in Hamtramck. Let's go down there and play ball with them and stuff. All kinds of stuff, like play football together, be on the same teams and stuff. A couple blocks, I want to be on y'all team. Yeah, you can play, we want you on the team. The only thing we wanted to do, could they play, you know. Yeah, you're on our team. A lot of - you know - a lot of stuff you can do. But like now, it ain't that - there's stuff out there but it ain't like it used to be. We had pool rooms, we had all kinds of sports, all kinds of everything. But people - something for somebody to do at all times.</p>
<p>Now they ain't got - they going to get in trouble. They have a attitude. We didn't have no attitude. I, how do you say it, idle time is the devil's workshop, you know. You got to - these kids, coming up, you've got to keep them busy and stuff. You got to keep them something to do. If you don't give them something to do, they going to find something to do.</p>
<p>And the same way with grown folks. They need something to do. Keep their mind occupied. Otherwise you end up doing the wrong thing. But if you're doing some of the things you're supposed to be doing, okay - but then, you know - ever since the day I worked in all these factories - but I've been taught a lot of stuff. I've got a lot of trades and stuff. That I learned when I was a kid. I learned landscaping from my mother because she knows the way, all us ten in the house, she wanted the house straight. So I worked with her with planting flowers and this and that. But she wanted it like a picture. They used to call our house - all us stayed in there - called our house "the doll house," because we had the little picket fence and stuff, you know. Wasn't no grass growing between the sidewalk. Line up perfectly straight because if it wasn't, she's going to make us do it over again. She was the kind of mom and stuff like, me and my brother arguing and stuff, she'd just walk past and say "Okay. The one with the most sense, shut up." Keep on walking, keep on walking. We'd be looking at each other. She'd know how to deal with all of us, with very few words because we'd know she was serious. And then we'd have stuff right. I learned how to make a bed up from my mama. Because she made me make it up about ten times, until I got the corners tucked in right, with the forty-five degree angle at the ends. All kinds of stuff.</p>
<p>So when I got into the military, I already knew how to make a bed up. And I do it now, because I been raised this way. Okay, we spoil a lot of kids, our next generation, because we got in those factories and was making money. Pretty good money. See, back then, we had to earn everything, what we had to do. We had to earn it. But we want our kids to have more than what we got, so we gave them. They didn't have to earn it. But we didn't know they wasn't learning nothing because you're just giving them. Back then you had to earn everything that you did. And you had to do it right. It was like we call "old school." There's a big difference in attitudes and stuff now, because a lot of kids got spoiled. They didn't have to do nothing. But then you look at some of them now, they don't know nothing, neither.</p>
<p>But then, I had like uncles and stuff, taught me home improvement. Learned landscaping from my mama because they used to take me to work with them when I was a little kid. "Pass me this, pass me that," but I was learning what tools was. A Phillips from a flat-head screwdriver, stuff like that. I know landscaping, I know home improvement, I know a whole lot of stuff. So they - I used to hate to go but they used to tell me like "We're trying to teach you something so you ain't got to go look for a job. People are going to look for you." You know, because my uncle, he had all kinds of licenses. When he died, he had an accident in his car coming from school, learning some code on electrical work.</p>
<p>I know electrical work, I know welding, I know brick work because he knew all of this stuff, and he taught me. And then when I went and stayed with grandfather in Alabama, he built houses. So I've been blessed, and had the right people in my life. Although my father died when I was young. I had a large family, my grandfather, my uncles and stuff. And then we taught each other stuff. It was in my family - I used my GI Bill for tailoring, because I took up tailoring in high school. You know, so I used to make a lot of my own clothes, until me and a couple other guys opened up a little business and stuff. But after we split our money up, went four different ways, then had to pay bills and stuff, sometime I didn't get paid. So when I got a chance to go back in the factory I went back in the factory. But I know how to do that too. Anything with a pattern and stuff, I know what to do.</p>
<p>So folks back then - attended high school, I learned how to read blueprints in junior high school.</p>
<p>CG: Which school was that?</p>
<p>JD: That was Cleveland Junior High School on Conant and Davison.</p>
<p>CG: And which elementary?</p>
<p>JD: Elementary, I went to Davison Elementary on Joseph Campau and Davison. We had everything in our neighborhood. They used to call it "drafting" in junior high school, cause they -</p>
<p>Okay, another thing I see in Detroit, we had a lot of trade schools in Detroit back in the day. You get in trouble in school, instead of kicking you out, they'll send you to Jacoby. We used to call it Jacoby College. It was an all-boys school. But they'd teach you trades, or they'd send you to mow. Or Washington Trade, they taught auto mechanics. They didn't send you to Juvenile or lock you up because you got in trouble in school, or kick you out of school and you're idle that year. They made you go to these special schools. They was hard on you, but when you come out of them, because the teachers get on your case, but now it's against the law for teachers to chastise a kid. Sometimes you have to when you're teaching.</p>
<p>So there's a lot of things have changed. They think you're doing - they think they're doing society good by taking some of the rules, but a lot of those old rules worked. It's a big difference.</p>
<p>CG: Definitely. So just to wrap it up and to go back a little bit, what you were saying before, you said you do have hope for the city moving forward? But you also were talking about how you don't want to see things that happened in '67 repeated.</p>
<p>JD: The reason why I said I don't want to see that, because in different parts, in different cities, in different - you know, like there's a lot of unrest with young people and the police. And that's the way it started before. A lot of unrest in different spots. You don't want all of this connected, because it's like a bomb with a fuse, and sometimes it don't take much to light it. You can see now that a lot of the stuff that happened back then to lead up to some of those riots in the cities and stuff, is getting close to it now. They ain't looking at the whole picture so it don't take much for - they might not even know the fact, of what happened, but it's something - there they go again and they're all out there again. And what they're protesting about, they might be on the wrong wavelength. They might be wrong. That all of this was justified for this to happen, but you just don't agree with it. And so -</p>
<p>CG: Which protests are you thinking about?</p>
<p>JD: Okay. Okay. The one that comes to mind is Black Lives Matter. Black lives do matter. All lives matter. But some of these young people, they're ready to protest, they're ready to join the crowd, and don't know what they're protesting about. And some of them, they're justified on doing it, but some of them, if they was to know the facts, they wouldn't be out there. But they're so uptight, it don't take but a little bit, they jump to conclusions. Instead of learning what they're protesting about.</p>
<p>This situation might not be the same as this other situation. It might be a different situation. Know what I'm saying? I might not be explaining it right, but I'm trying to say it the way I feel about it because all lives matter. But there's a whole lot of other times the police be wrong. But it's a whole other time, they be right because this is their job. And they're doing their job appropriately. But there's a lot of them don't do their job appropriately because sometime, in the police’s head, their culture might be different than where they're patrolling at. Might be a different race or different financial situation, or whatever it is, and they ain't understanding what's happening there.</p>
<p>Okay, for instance, the security guard that killed Trayvon, because he had a hoodie on, you know. All kids with a hoodie on ain't bad. So, only thing I'm going to say is back in the day, we had some leaders of people that talked to people in masses. Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, he wasn’t all the way right, but he was still - people listened to him. There's still leaders out there but they, a lot of them ain't listening to them. We had Obama. And then Trump won because people don't trust the government, they don't - they don't trust nothing no more.</p>
<p>The country morals, it ain't the same. So we need real educated people that can communicate with people, then understand it, and put it out there in layman's terms so people can understand. And sit back. Because we're all in this together whether we believe it or not. We're in this together. This is our country, this is where we live. And then I look back the way it used to be. Christmastime, Hudson's downtown. It was like a party, you know. Everybody enjoying themself. You go on down to Hudson's. Eat lunch and stuff at Kresge's, like that. It's the attitude. It's different. And you can't blame people, because just like yesterday, day before, Ohio State, at the college because a person mad, he's going to take it out on some people that got nothing to do with this.</p>
<p>And there's a lot of them out there, because I don't believe there's a lot of terrorists in this country. Most of the time it be an individual with an attitude, and they take it out on people.</p>
<p>CG: Just to wrap it up, did you want to share any last thoughts on the future of Detroit?</p>
<p>JD: Well, not really, but I'm looking at Detroit. You can see a lot of hope.</p>
<p>CG: You're hopeful.</p>
<p>JD: Yeah. You know, the housing thing is coming back and stuff. People moving back into the city and stuff. They building the city up and stuff. Then the Pistons coming downtown, you know, and I'm a basketball fan. So there's a lot of hope for the city, you know, and you can see it, and I feel good about it. And then like, I don't care what nationality is. We need more people in the city with more stuff to do. People need people. Whether they believe it or not. Because I believe, how they say it, because I was a substance abuse counselor and I used to talk to people and stuff. God works through people so you need people. Because a lot of times, you be all bent out of shape, this and that, and you look up, the right person will come right there. Because God will send them.</p>
<p>So you have to have a balance in your life. Life ain't that hard. A lot of people just try to go through it without thinking. First they go to know who they is. Their dos and their don'ts and stuff. And treat - I used to have rules and stuff - they say, how you do this? It spells it out, how. H: Be honest, be truthful to yourself. Be honest with other people. The O: be open-minded, because a closed mind can't learn nothing. And that W: Be willing. Be willing to go to any lengths. Education, or whatever it is that you need, be willing to do it. And then add three more things to it. Talk to people the way you want to be talked to. Treat people the way you want to be treated. Give respect, then you can demand respect. If you forget any of those you're in trouble. You need them all. So you need people and stuff. So that's about the only thing I can add to it. But the city got a lot of hope. It's coming. You can see it.</p>
<p>So only - and then like we don't have the problems that a lot of cities have, because I believe the police is working with the public. Working with the people. I used to coach Little League football a few years ago, and we dealt with the police. In the PAL unit, there's a lot of police involved in that, a lot of these Little Leagues. So Detroit is okay.</p>
<p>CG: Well thank you so much for sitting down with me.</p>
<p>JD: Okay.</p>
Original Format
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Audio
Duration
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1hr 5min
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Celeste Goedert
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Jesse Davis
Location
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Detroit, MI
Video
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<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/vntTcN2VRf8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Jesse Davis, November 29th, 2016
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview, Mr. Davis discusses growing up in Detroit's close-knit Davison neighborhood and the effect the Chrysler Freeway had on the area. He was drafted into the military and was home on a two-day pass on July 23, 1967.
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
Date
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01/27/2017
Rights
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Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Format
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Audio/WAV
Language
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en-US
Type
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Oral History
1967 riot—Detroit—Michigan
Belle Isle
Black Business
Blind Pig
Curfew
Detroit Community Members
Mayor Coleman Young
Michigan National Guard
STRESS
Twelfth Street
United States Army
Vietnam War
-
https://detroit1967.detroithistorical.org/files/original/e00dbe4b31c329d9993b4cbeb3bd81b8.jpg
a1af5fc6830e3cb021c88546b07e18ed
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Detroit 67: Looking Back to Move Forward
Subject
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Stories gathered to commemorate the summer of 1967 in Detroit.
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
Rights
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Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Language
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en-us
Date
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10/20/2019
Oral History
An audio or video resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Narrator/Interviewee's Name
The current first and last name of the person speaking or being interviewed.
John Kastner
Brief Biography
A short biography of the Interviewee
John Kastner was born in Detroit, Michigan and was a police officer with the Detroit Police Department.
Interviewer's Name
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Lillian Wilson
Interview Place
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Detroit, MI
Trinity, FL
Phone interview
Date
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06/25/2015
Interview Length
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00:37:46
Transcriptionist
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Robert Lazich
Transcription Date
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01/20/2017
Transcription
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<p>Lily Wilson. Today is Thursday, June 25, 2015. This is the interview of John Kastner. I am Lily Wilson and we are recording this interview for the Detroit Historical Society and the Detroit Historical Museum’s Detroit 1967 Oral History Project by phone with John Kastner in Trinity, Florida. Okay John, you can start by reading to us or letting us know where and when you were born.</p>
<p>John Kastner: It’s about three short paragraphs, just a dissertation, on what went on, okay? Then we’ll have some questions and answers.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Okay, go ahead.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: On Sunday morning, in the summer of 1967, my wife and I had driven our daughters Doreen and Cheryl to a summer girl scout camp called Camp Metamora. It’s about 30 miles north of Detroit. At the camp we met two of our neighbors who had likewise had driven their daughter up to the camp. The four of us decided to stop at a bar on the way home and have a beer. While at the bar I noticed a TV was on. It was showing pictures like a city burning. I asked the bartender, while pointing at the TV, what was going on. He stated that the city of Detroit was burning. He further stated that the blacks were rioting. I then took a close look and confirmed to myself it was Detroit. Returning home and pulling up on my driveway, I could hear my telephone ringing off the hook. I raced into the house and answered the phone. My boss was on the line and told me to get into work immediately – that the blacks were rioting. I quickly dressed for work, put my shotgun in the trunk of my car and drove to police headquarters. I was then put on active duty. While I’m standby in the station room, I watched two civilians walk into the room. One was General Throckmorton. He spoke to the commissioner, who then walked to a map of the city and the general asked him to point out the trouble spots. The commissioner, with a pointer in his hand, placed it over the map and shakily said, “All over the city.” Throckmorton walked over to a telephone and dialed several numbers and then said, “Throckmorton here, send in the 82<sup>nd</sup> Airborne Division.” He then hung up the phone. Approximately four hours later the 82<sup>nd</sup> Division arrived by truck from Selfridge Air Force Base. During the time that they arrived prisoners in the county jail, which was across the street from police headquarters, was rioting. At that time the 82<sup>nd</sup> Airborne troops armed with rifles with bayonets attached entered the county jail and within five minutes there was complete silence. The 82<sup>nd</sup> Division along with Michigan State Police and the Detroit Police patrolled the city and within 48 hours, things were back to normal. Through this time there were hundreds of black males arrested for rioting and with no room to put them, the city placed a large number of buses on Belle Isle. All prisoners from that day on were transferred to those buses. Handcuffed to their seats, they were fed three bologna sandwiches a day for the duration of the riot. That’s it.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Okay John, thank you. I’ve got some follow-up questions for you. In what city were you born and what was your birth date?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: I was born on August 2, 1928 in the city of Detroit.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: What neighborhood were you living in during the summer of 1967.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Where was I living in ’67 – neighborhood. I was living at that time out by Rouge Park, just this side of Telegraph.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: What was the street name?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Tireman.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Tireman?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Yeah. T-I-R-E-M-A-N.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: I know where that is, thank you. What was your job title? What was your specific job in Detroit during 1967.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: At that time I was working at police headquarters with the (?) squad and at the time of the riots I was assigned to the commission’s office as a security.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: What was your rank at the time?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: I was a detective.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: So, what specific things were you doing during those days in July when this disturbance was happening and all this violence was happening? What was your daily routine during those days?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Like I say, I was assigned to the commissioner’s office, my job was actually his security in his office and that area. Like I say, General Throckmorton arrived there. He came in with his aide. He was also assigned there. So he was there all the time. So I’d say there was like five people in that office who fought the riots and I was one of them at the commissioner’s office.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Did you ever feel that the office was in any danger?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Not that the office was in danger, just that security for the commissioner himself. In other words, we were like his bodyguards, so to speak. Nobody would come in the office there and create a commotion or anything. Just keep things going straight.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: I understand. Can you spell the commissioner’s last name for me?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: I’m quite sure it’s spelled G-I-R-A-R-D-I-N.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: During that time, during July 24 and then forward for the rest of that week in 1967, what was the worst thing that you saw, or what was the worst time for you during that time.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: I was really confined to that office, so to speak. I don’t think I heard of anything outside of the fact we had rounded up all the black – we had a curfew, meaning 8 p.m. to 8 a.m. was the curfew in the city. Anybody on the streets at that time would be arrested. Everybody we arrested we transferred to Belle Isle and placed them on city buses. They were handcuffed to the seats on the buses.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: You actually saw this activity happening.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: I transferred a lot of prisoners out there.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: So you were working mainly with the commissioner in protecting his office, but another part of your job was to actually do the work of helping to transfer these prisoners.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Well, my job was to secure the commissioner’s office and to make sure no harm came to him or anybody in that area.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: So later on where there had been all these arrests made, you helped to transfer prisoners?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Right.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Okay, got it. What was that experience like for you looking back? What types of interactions did you have with the people who had been arrested, if any?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: The only thing that comes to mind is the fact that I was one of the few people that transferred prisoners to Belle Isle and put them on these buses. I don’t think anybody knew about that, that we actually filled these buses up with all black prisoners, handcuffed them to their seats and that’s where they sat for the duration of the riot. They were fed three bologna sandwiches a day.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: That’s an interesting detail. We didn’t know that.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Not many people knew it.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Why do you think nobody knew what was going on in terms of the transfer of prisoners?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Are you familiar with Belle Isle -- the Belle Isle Bridge? The whole Belle Isle Bridge was secured by police, so nobody could get on the island. We used that, like I say, to park a number of city buses on the island and that’s where we took all the black prisoners and secured them on the island so they wouldn’t be involved anymore in the riots.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Right, now were there any white prisoners?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: You know, I don’t recall seeing one. There may have been, but to my knowledge I don’t remember seeing any, especially on any of them buses. I’m sure there was white people locked up. They weren’t put on them buses out on Belle Isle as far as my knowledge. I’d remember it.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Okay, thank you. The way that this incident in July of ’67 is sort of been pitched throughout history is that this was a race riot. Black people, especially young black men, were angry at the police. Is that the way that you sort of see this, that you experienced that? Or did your perspective give you another angle on that?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: I can understand their feelings, you have to understand that they started this riot. To my knowledge, I didn’t see any white people involved in the riot, outside of the police. It wasn’t a black and white confrontation, a black and police conversation is what it was. We had black officers too, you know.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Absolutely. Now, this anger toward the police, I’m curious, did any of the people that were being transferred to Belle Isle by yourself and your colleagues, did they say anything to you while they were being transferred, hear them say anything, did they get angry with you? Did you sense any tension beyond what would be normal.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: The ones that I came into contact with were pretty well subdued. They didn’t say much. They knew they were under arrest. Of course, they didn’t know where they were going when we took them to Belle Isle and put them on a bus. They knew when we got there.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: What was the atmosphere like after all this violence ended and things were calm? What was the attitude of the prisoners once they left? Tell me about this process of letting them go. How did that work?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Well, what had happened was after we placed them on the buses and secured the buses in that area, it was about four days they sat there on the buses. There was a black judge – I can’t recall his name – he was the only black judge in Recorder’s Court at the time. You might know or you can check and find out who it was. He ordered all those black prisoners into his courtroom to have a hearing, which we had to do and then he released them all.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Do you think that it was the best course of action to have a single black judge handle work with these particular cases rather than having them sent to multiple –?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Well, apparently whoever was the chief judge in Recorder’s Court at the time thought it was a wise decision and I thought it was a wise decision. I think it made the prisoners probably feel more comfortable when they were brought before a black judge. Of course, he released them all and turned them back on the streets. That was not for us to decide or say. The police department – we just did our job.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: I’m curious, did you sense any tension among either between yourself or other police officers – whether they be black or white – or between the black and white police officers in the department. Was there any sort of resistance to integrating the police force in the 1960s?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: I didn’t quite understand that question.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Was there any resistance within the police force among yourself and your colleagues to the integration of the police force – getting more black officers.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Well, at that time there weren’t that many black officers on the department. There wasn’t that many and the ones that were on were good officers. I had good friends that were black officers.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: So you yourself had no problem</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: No. Color wasn’t the problem. It was the people creating the problem, black or white.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: So, did you ever hear from your fellow officers, not yourself, of course, who were white, was there any disgruntlement about more black officers being hired after the riots?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: I know there was more black officers. The ones that were on the job at the time, they thought the same way we did. Whoever was creating the problems, they had one place to go, and that was to jail Get them off the street. If you were a black officer, you were white enough to be like that.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: What about after things had calmed down and into August of 1967, what was sort of your biggest challenge as a police officer, as a detective, at that time? How did your job change as a result of this incident?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Well, we weren’t too happy about the black judge releasing them all like he did. We weren’t too happy about it. Outside of that, as a police officer you have a job to do and you just do it. You know, you take the good with the bad. I’m sure there were a lot of officers that weren’t too happy about it. Nothing you could do about it. You could quit the job if you wanted to, that’s about all you could do. But no, I think everything started to go along smoothly. Nobody got bent out of shape about it.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: What was the date that you entered the police force?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: I entered the police force – I joined January of 1951.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: So you had quite a bit of experience by the time 1967 rolled around.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Yeah, right – almost 16 years.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: You mentioned that after July of 1967 things began to be run more smoothly. How long were you working as a police officer after ‘67?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: I didn’t quite get that one.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: When did you retire from the police force?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: When did I retire from the police? October 1978.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: How did you see the city change between 1967 and 1978?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: It turned almost completely all black. But, you know, I’ll give you a little story. Coleman Young was the mayor of the city of Detroit. Do you remember that name?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Yes.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: He was the first black mayor of the city of Detroit. The statement he made when he went into office was “I’m going to run Whitey to Eight Mile Road.” In other words, Eight Mile Road is the city limits. The exact words he says “I’m going to run Whitey to Eight Mile Road.” That was on TV and everything else. When they first selected the mayor, that was about the first thing that came out of his mouth. He succeeded. That was “white flight.” It was a bad thing to say, you know.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Now after 1967, Roman Gribbs became mayor. I’m wondering, do you think you noticed the biggest shift taking place between the end of Gribbs’ mayorship and then Coleman Young taking office? Aside from Coleman Young saying that, what do you think sort of calmed things down after the riots and what do you think sort of instigated the trouble afterwards?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Well, the statement he made that he was going to run Whitey to Eight Mile Road, a lot of white people got the hell out of the city. They were thinking there is no place for us and just got the hell out. In fact, most of the police officers we had to live in the city limits. Most of us moved out – Do you know where Rouge Park is?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: We moved to just out, just west of Rouge Park in an area with the nickname “Copper Canyon.” Because all the policemen, that’s where we lived. It was called “Copper Canyon.” We had to say within the city limits of Detroit to belong in the department.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: So, you found a way to make that work while being away from the city.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Like I said, that area that I lived in was all policemen. It was the safest place in the world.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: I can imagine. So that’s what you did. And then when did you move Florida?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: I retired in ’78 and moved to Florida in ’78.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: When did you move to Rouge Park -- to Copper Canyon?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: That was way before the riots. In fact I worked at the 13<sup>th</sup> Precinct, which was at Woodward and Hancock. Do you know where that is? Woodward Station? That’s where I worked when I moved out to Rouge Park.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: So you were one of the first police officers to sort of settle in that Rouge Park area – on Tireman you lived, you said.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: I wouldn’t say that. I was in no big hurry to get out there. At the time I was living in an apartment down on Twelfth Street. We rented a mile home. We bought a home as far out west as we could get – well like I said, out in Copper Canyon.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Right. So you lived on Twelfth Street then. What crossroad?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: What crossroad? I’m having a senior moment now. Twelfth Street and – it was a real busy street. I can still remember the address 12255. Davidson! Right off of Davidson.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Davidson. Got it. You lived there until you moved to Rouge Park.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Yeah, then I moved out to Tireman, out by Rouge Park.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Initially, I assume you were like a rookie police officer in the early Fifties you lived on Twelfth Street, which ended up being the center of riot activity in ‘67. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: True, but like I say at the time it was just the wife and I. We were both working. We had our first born child on Twelfth Street. We moved off there in three months. We bought a home, like I say, out by Rouge Park.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: What was Twelfth Street like in the Fifties?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: It wasn’t that bad. I remember there was a little beer and wine store across the street from me. It was mixed, black and white. It was all white people living in the apartment building I was living in – blacks walking by or whatever. No big problems.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: So what do you think, since you were living in the heart of the city, and you were a police officer and had a lot of on the ground perspective, what do you think instigated the violent activity that happened in July ’67?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Well, I’ll tell you what happened. There was a bar down on Twelfth Street and Livernois area, between Twelfth Street and Livernois. It was an all black bar; blacks attended there. This particular night, the night the riot started, a large group of these blacks congregated outside of this bar. They got kind of unruly. This was about 2:30 in the morning when the bar closed. So they dispatched two police officers in a patrol car to break it up, to get them out of there. The owners of the bar made the call. Well, the officers when got there the unruly crowd got really unruly. The police officers were in the car and they start shaking the car. There must have been 20, 30 people doing it. The officers somehow got out of that car and ran. They tipped that police car right over and set it afire. That was the start of the riots.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: So before that night, on July 24 [July 23] –well, the early morning hours of July 24 [23]--what do you think – was there tension in the city? What was going on?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: The blacks all lived in a certain neighborhood. Most of them lived east of Woodward Avenue. They were down on Brush Street, St. Antoine, of course Hastings Street was a heavy black community. But they were all in that one area. So they were pretty well contained in that one area. Just west of Woodward Avenue, was Second Street and Third Street. That was all white Southerners, people who came up from the south during the war to work in the factories. That group didn’t get along too good: the blacks and then whites in that area, if you know what I mean. Of course, the blacks stayed on their side of Woodward Avenue and the whites stayed with the Southerners – Southern workers, I should say – stayed on their side of Woodward Avenue. No real problems.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: So it was very segregated, would you say?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Yeah, very segregated. In fact, I worked at the Woodward Police Station, the 13<sup>th</sup> Precinct, which was right on the corner of Woodward and Hancock. So that sat right in between the two, the Southerners and the black people.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: And then white people were living in other neighborhoods.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Yes, both east and west. You get four or five blocks east of Woodward and four or five blocks west of Woodward, it was all white.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: But it’s interesting that the Twelfth Street area where you lived with your wife and your young child in the early Fifties, it’s interesting that that was mixed black and white, even though certain buildings were lived in by white tenants and certain buildings were lived in by black tenants, right?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: A good possibility, yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: So, I wonder what that was like living in an integrated neighborhood in a very segregated city.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Well, from where I was sitting, as the blacks moved in, the whites moved out. Sooner or later, it was either all black or all white. Like I said, blacks moved into certain of these rundown neighborhoods where whites were still living. Whites slowly moved out, farther out west or farther out east.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Is there anything else that you can remember about July 1967 that you would like to share with us?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Did I read my presentation to you?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: You did at the beginning of the recording. We got that on the record, you did read that. I’m wondering is there anything else that you’d like to share with us.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: No, I just put about everything that I thought in that little presentation I gave you.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Okay, I have one final question for you, if you don’t mind. We talked a little bit about the integration of the police force, how it was mainly white officers throughout the Fifties and Sixties. You were working as a police officer. I wonder, did you feel that there were any discriminating practices against black people when you were a police officer.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: People on the job, you mean?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Yeah, maybe not yourself. Did you feel there were discriminating practices against black people?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: The only I can say is that I was at the 13<sup>th</sup> Precinct, like I say on Woodward Avenue, between East and West Detroit. We had one black crew. There were three black officers and they were assigned to one vehicle. Of course, only two were on and one would be off or whatever. So we had one what we call black crew and they were east of Woodward in the black area. We got along good with them. I can still remember one incident which is kind of interesting. We had a room we played cards in right before roll call. Before we went on duty we’d sit there and play cards before 8:00 or whatever time we were going on duty. This one particular time we had a new black police officer, a young black officer -- just a young kid, 21, 22 years old. He came on the job and we had previous to him one black crew, three other black officers; they were older guys. I remember this one particular day when this officer came on the job. A bunch of us whites would play cards before roll call. We were playing cards and this young black officer came over and was watching us. One of the older black officers – his name was Donny Lucas – he was about six foot five and weighed about 350 pounds. He walked over there to the table where this young black officer was watching. He grabbed him by his collar and says, “Come on, nigger, you get your ass on over here with us. Don’t be bothering white officers.” That’s how it was. That’s how segregated we were. Those were the exact words he used.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Even though there were an increasing number of black officers throughout the Sixties and after the riots, there was segregation within the police force.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: That went on for quite a while. I remember seeing the same black officer out at a grocery store way out on the west side where I lived. I happen to run into him one day. He seen me and came walking up to me with a big smile on his face. “Hey Kast, I bet you never thought you’d see me out here.” This is the same black officer that yanked that other one away from us. I got along with him. There were no problems. They knew their place. This one young officer he thought he was something special, I guess. He went and straightened him out in a hurry. So that’s how things were then.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Did that change at all after 1967?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Oh yeah, it changed. Like I said, prior to ’67, all black officers we had assigned to the 13<sup>th</sup> Precinct or the 7<sup>th</sup> Precinct, which is right down central part of the city, all black areas. But after that they started showing up in white areas. In fact, I got a little story I can tell you. The situation was we had a barricaded gunman one time. He was a white man. He had a rifle and was barricaded in a house. We was over there trying to get him out of there. One black officer over there he was assigned to this precinct. I knew him real well. Anyways, gunfire started, the guy barricaded started shooting through the window of this house, this picture window. A lot of fire broke out. Everybody started shooting. It was like a shooting gallery. One of the police officers got killed. Of course, we all had to turn our firearms into the scientific lab. They wanted to find out who shot and killed the police officer because it was a .38 caliber bullet, it wasn’t the caliber of weapon the barricaded man had. So we went through and the sergeant I was talking to, a friend of mine over at homicide, on the phone from the scene of this shooting. I had this black officer kept tugging on my arm. He was the only black officer at the scene. I said “Get the hell away from me. I’m busy. Get the hell away from me.” What happened was it was his gun that killed the white police officer. In other words, it was by accident.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Of course. So what happened?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: I never seen him after that. I never seen him. Like I said, we all had to turn our guns in to homicide and they examined the guns to see which gun killed the officer. Of course, it turned out to be the black officer’s gun. I’ve never seen him from that day on, whether they took him inside and said, “You better resign from the department and get out of here in a hurry,” whatever. Word got out that you killed a white officer, it was going to be tough for you. I never seen that officer again. I don’t know what happened to him.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LK: What date was that?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: What date you said? God, I don’t know.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LK: The year?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Well, let me see. I was a sergeant at the time. I got promoted to sergeant -- I was a uniform sergeant at the time, promoted in 1968 to uniform. Sometime around ‘68, ‘69.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LK: Interesting. Do you think he would had to resign if he was white?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: If he’d been right?</p>
<p>LK: White.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Shoot that one to me again.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LK: Do you think that officer that accidentally killed the other officer, do you think he would still had to resign if he had been a white officer?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: I don’t know if he resigned or what, ma’am. I just never seen him after that date. I know that he was scared to death. He just kept grabbing my arm. He was the one who shot him. He was just scared to death, all white officers at the scene. At the time, we didn’t know if the other officer was dead. He was found out in about 15 minutes when we got information back from Receiving Hospital he was deceased. But again, I never seen that officer after that day. We all turned our guns in. We had to turn our guns in. They wanted to determine who killed the officer through ballistics. When they found out who it was – like I said, I never seen that officer after that day. Now whether he was taken aside and said “For the better of everybody, it’s best you resign and get the hell out of here.” I think that’s what happened. I don’t know, but if that’s what happened. All these white officers would have gone bananas thinking this black officer killed a white officer even though it was an accident Not many know about that, either.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Do you remember that black officer’s name?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: What the hell was his name? Can’t think of it. He was a nice guy. Like I said, he came up to me and pulled me by the arm. He was pulling on my arm, you know, letting me know he was the one that shot him. He was scared to death. He was a nice young fellow, real nice guy.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Do you remember the officer’s name that was shot and killed that day?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Oh my god. I can see a picture of him. No, offhand, I’m sorry but I can’t. I can still picture the guy, still picture him. I can’t think of his name. He worked at the same precinct.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: Well John, thank you so much for talking with us. Is there anything else you would like to say on the record?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: Not really. I can’t think of anything.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>LW: We really appreciate it and thank you for your time.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JK: No problem.</p>
Original Format
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Audio
Duration
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37min 46sec
Interviewer
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Lillian Wilson
Interviewee
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John Kastner
Location
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Detroit, MI
Trinity, FL
Video
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<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Scoq513hEGM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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John Kastner, June 25th, 2015
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview, Kastner discusses his time as a police officer with the Detroit Police Department in 1967 and the years after.<br /><br /><strong>***NOTE: This interview contains profanity/explicit language.</strong>
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
Date
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01/20/2017
Rights
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Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Format
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Audio/WAV
Language
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en-US
Type
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Oral History
1967 riot—Detroit—Michigan
82nd Airborne Division-US Army
Belle Isle
Copper Canyon
Detroit Police Department
General Throckmorton
Mayor Coleman Young
Mayor Roman Gribbs
Recorder's Court - Detroit
-
https://detroit1967.detroithistorical.org/files/original/3eed5bea6acfdf777403f9e414cb22db.jpg
a1af5fc6830e3cb021c88546b07e18ed
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Detroit 67: Looking Back to Move Forward
Subject
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Stories gathered to commemorate the summer of 1967 in Detroit.
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
Rights
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Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Language
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en-us
Date
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10/20/2019
Oral History
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Narrator/Interviewee's Name
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Sheila Shelton
Brief Biography
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Sheila Shelton was born in Detroit in 1956 and grew up on the northeast side. She went to college in Birmingham, Alabama and later worked for the Coleman Young administration.
Interviewer's Name
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Hannah Sabal
Interview Place
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Detroit, MI
Date
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06/23/2016
Interview Length
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00:15:15
Transcriptionist
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Celeste Goedert
Transcription Date
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11/21/2016
Transcription
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<p class="BodyA">HS: Hello, this is Hannah Sabal. I’m here in Detroit, Michigan. The date is June 23, 2016 and I’m sitting down with Sheila Shelton for the Detroit 67 Oral History Project. Thank you for sitting down with me today.</p>
<p class="BodyA">SS: Thank you.</p>
<p class="BodyA">HS: Okay, can you start by telling me where and when you were born?</p>
<p class="BodyA">SS: I was born March 31, 1956 in Detroit, Michigan.</p>
<p class="BodyA">HS: And where did you grow up?</p>
<p class="BodyA">SS: I grew up on the northeast side of Detroit.</p>
<p class="BodyA">HS: And what was your neighborhood like?</p>
<p class="BodyA">SS: My neighborhood as a child was wonderful. It was absolutely breathtaking. We moved there, the trees actually met in an archway going down the street. You didn’t have to lock your doors. It was truly- the neighborhood raised the children. Everybody had their hands in it.</p>
<p class="BodyA">HS: Did you play a lot with neighbor kids?</p>
<p class="BodyA">SS: Yes.</p>
<p class="BodyA">HS: Okay. And was your neighborhood integrated?</p>
<p class="BodyA">SS: Yes it was when we first moved there. It was Jewish, white, and maybe two or three blacks.</p>
<p class="BodyA">HS: And what did your parents do for a living?</p>
<p class="BodyA">SS: My mother was a homemaker and my father worked at Ford’s.</p>
<p class="BodyA">HS: And where did you go to school?</p>
<p class="BodyA">SS: I went to school around the neighborhood, as a child. At McCullough Elementary School.</p>
<p class="BodyA">HS: And middle schoolm high school?</p>
<p class="BodyA">SS: Middle school was Winship, high school was Cass Tech.</p>
<p class="BodyA">HS: Awesome. And what year did you graduate Cass?</p>
<p class="BodyA">SS: ’74.</p>
<p class="BodyA">HS: And then did you go to school? Did you continue your education or work after high school?</p>
<p class="BodyA">SS: Yes, I furthered my education and I went down south, actually.</p>
<p class="BodyA">HS: Okay, and what college did you go to down there?</p>
<p class="BodyA">SS: Lawson State Community College.</p>
<p class="BodyA">HS: So where were you living in the 1960s?</p>
<p class="BodyA">SS: A street called Leslie.</p>
<p class="BodyA">HS: Leslie Street. And you were young at the time- how old were you in 1967?</p>
<p class="BodyA">SS: Maybe about 9, 9 or 10.</p>
<p class="BodyA">HS: And as a child, did you notice anything peculiar going on in the city before the riots?</p>
<p class="BodyA">SS: We actually were down the street, a couple blocks away, at my cousins’ house and they told us that they had heard it was going to be a race riot and that we should get home right away. Being kids, we obeyed the elders and we started to go home.</p>
<p class="BodyA">HS: Wow so they knew that there was going to be a race riot?</p>
<p class="BodyA">SS: That’s what they said. And how they knew, to this day I have no idea.</p>
<p class="BodyA">HS: So you first heard about it from your cousins and then do you have any memories or experiences from the riots? </p>
<p class="BodyA">SS: [laughing] Yes I do. My father was living at that particular time and we were curious so we said, “Well, let us walk up to Linwood and find out what’s going on.” So we did, we proceeded to walk up there. It was my father, my next-door neighbor, my sister, and myself. And when we got there, there was a lot of looting, people running up and down the streets, and we walked into a corner store and they were looting. Booze was all gone, all liquor was off the shelf. And I saw a game – my father had already walked out of the store. And I saw a game – I think it was The Game of Life – and I picked it up, and I went to my father and I said, “Daddy, can I have this game?” And he said, “No, baby, put it back. We don’t steal.” So I went back in the store and I put it on the counter, which now was completely empty. And by the time I put the game down, somebody picked it up. I proceeded to walk out the store and at that particular time it was like a glass window. And they used to have popcorn and potato chips on a little stand, I think sometimes they call it – well, I don’t know what they call it. But it was on like a little stand and this man was rocking it, and by the time I got right in front of him – he’s inside the store – he hit the window and the sheet of glass went and covered me. And I got cut up real bad. And my father, obviously, went in there to kill the man, but my neighbor said, “We’ve got to get these kids to the hospital.” So my father went home, as we were slowly walking to the house, and he got the car, and we went to the hospital. Now, being a child-I think we went to Henry Ford’s, I’m really not sure- but it was a lot of commotion in there. Gunshots, I remember some guy holding his hand out and it was bloody but the blood wasn't coming out and the doctor hollering, “Get him to a room; he has internal bleeding.” It was very hectic. I finally got waited on. they stitched me up and took me home.</p>
<p class="BodyA">HS: Did your sister or you neighbor get hurt when the glass fell?</p>
<p class="BodyA">SS: My sister also got hurt, but it was only on her heel. And that was followed by the army, who set up their organization in front of three schools- Durfee, Roosevelt, and Central. I remember the tents and the tanks coming down the street and we had a curfew. But before they got here, I remember these guys, they had a bank safe on top of the car, on top of the hood and it fell off. It had rollers on it and they proceeded to roll it down the street. And where they went with that safe, I have no idea. But when the army got here, they kind of calmed things down. Like I said, we had a curfew and I remember them standing on top of apartment buildings – because there was an apartment building not too far from us – with their guns in their hands, you know.</p>
<p class="BodyA">HS: How did your parents react to the riots? Were they scared or angry?</p>
<p class="BodyA">SS: I think, I really don’t know how they felt about it. They were originally born in the South. My father and mother came to Detroit for a better living. They were working people as far as I know. But my father didn't live too long after that and his lawyer told my mother, he suggested that we move. And the neighborhoods really weren't that bad yet – because he died in ’69. But she didn’t – she, you know, purchased the home, and we stayed there.</p>
<p class="BodyA">HS: And is your mother still living?</p>
<p class="BodyA">SS: No.</p>
<p class="BodyA">HS: Did she stay in Detroit the rest of her life?</p>
<p class="BodyA">SS: Yes, mmhmm.</p>
<p class="BodyA">HS: And at what point did you move out of Detroit?</p>
<p class="BodyA">SS: Well, the first time I moved was when I graduated. I went to Lawson State Community College. I went to stay with my grandmother in Birmingham, Alabama. Then I came back. I love Detroit, you know. There’s a lot of things that I’ve done, a lot of people, icons, that I’ve met here and Detroit used to be something to see. It’s sad to see it today. Like I can tell you, I met Marvin Gaye at the State Fair. I walked on Baker’s Bar on Livernois and Eight mile and met Stevie Wonder. I was in the choir when Nelson Mandela came to Detroit. Yes, I’ve talked to the owner of the Fisher building. Just so many things I’ve done here. Gladys Knight, Quincy Jones. He came to Hudson’s when it was open. So it was a lot, a lot of icons who came and I got the opportunity to meet a lot of them.</p>
<p class="BodyA">HS: So, you were about nine years old in ’67, aside from you saw the people stealing, did you have any idea at all, anything else that was happening?</p>
<p class="BodyA">SS: No. But I know afterwards it was a Catholic church on Linwood and it had a statue of Jesus and I think it’s still there today. Jesus was all white. And somebody painted his face black and it has remained black since that time. He’s all white but his face is black. And that church, I think is on Linwood and Grand, I’m not sure.</p>
<p class="BodyA">HS: Do you think they did that out of protest?</p>
<p class="BodyA">SS: Yeah.</p>
<p class="BodyA">HS: Wow.</p>
<p class="BodyA">SS: Because, reading your article, I didn’t know they were really protesting about the police department being all white.</p>
<p class="BodyA">HS: So a lot of people have different names for what happened. Some people call it an uprising, some people call it a riot. How do you perceive the events?</p>
<p class="BodyA">SS: When I was a child, they nicknamed it ‘Burn Baby Burn.’</p>
<p class="BodyA">HS: Really, I haven’t heard that.</p>
<p class="BodyA">SS: Mhmm, that’s what it was. And I had-I forgot about it because it was so long ago that I had a torn ligament when I moved to New York and a guy was working on my shoulder and I had this cut from the glass and he said, “Oh, where did you get this from?” And I said, “From the race riot of 1967!” And he stepped back and he went, “You were in a riot?” And I said, “Yeah, you maybe haven't read about it in your history books, it was called ‘Burn Baby Burn.’”</p>
<p class="BodyA">HS: Wow. So you would classify it as a race riot?</p>
<p class="BodyA">SS: I saw blacks running up and down the streets, looting the stores. I didn't see any white people, I didn't see the police. I saw people hurt at the hospital and afterwards, I saw disaster. Which Detroit has never recovered from.</p>
<p class="BodyA">HS: Could you elaborate on the changes you’ve seen in Detroit since then?</p>
<p class="BodyA">SS: Deterioration, some places look like a bomb has hit it. Lack of jobs, lack of communication, lack of skills. You know, when I lived here before, you would go somewhere like Oak Park and you could actually talk to someone and they could pass something across to you if you purchased something. Whereas if you were in the city of Detroit, you had this two-inch thick glass and you had to put the money underneath or slide the glass around in order to get your stuff, totally different.</p>
<p class="BodyA">HS: Do you have any words for future generations about what to do to fix Detroit, or advice?</p>
<p class="BodyA">SS: I’ve often thought, what would heal Detroit? I don't know. It’s hard sometimes when you listen to the news or read the papers and they’ll say they don’t have any money for the schools, the schools are deteriorating. And then the next day you’ll hear they’re spending seven million dollars for the dolphins at the Detroit Zoo and you go, “What is wrong with this picture?” So, I don’t know, I think they should have tried to make some type of amends a long time ago. It’s been, what did you say? 50 years?</p>
<p class="BodyA">HS: 50 years next year, yeah.</p>
<p class="BodyA">SS: That’s a long time to not try to do anything.</p>
<p class="BodyA">HS: I had a question, what was it? You mentioned that you heard the riots had started because of police issues. Do you think the relationship between the police and the public has changed at all since then?</p>
<p class="BodyA">SS: Well we had a- I used to work for the city of Detroit- under Coleman Young. We used to call him, ‘Uncle Coleman.’ So I think he changed that, he ordered that to work to be a police officer, an employee of the city, you actually had to live in Detroit. And I think that turned around somewhat, you know. But being the mother of a black son, you know, there are certain things that I might tell my son that you may not. You know, like if you see the police, you immediately pull over, hands at ten and two, do not move until he says, get your license. I don’t want you to be in an accident. “Oh, I thought he was going for a gun,” you know. So it’s certain things that they have to learn.</p>
<p class="BodyA">HS: That’s sad.</p>
<p class="BodyA">SS: Yep. [whispering] I’m going to Canada. [laughing].</p>
<p class="BodyA">HS: [whispering] I’m with you. Alright, did you have any other memories or words to share with us today?</p>
<p class="BodyA">SS: I wish Detroit could come back but it’s so much damage. I see they’re trying to rebuild and do things here and that’s nice, I applaud them. But the neighborhoods are suffering. I don’t know where you start?</p>
<p class="BodyA">HS: I don’t know, that’s a great question.</p>
<p class="BodyA">SS: Like now, even Flint. People forgot about Flint already. They’re not even mentioning it anymore.</p>
<p class="BodyA">HS: That’s true. Alright, well thank you for sitting down with me and sharing your story. It was really great speaking with you.</p>
<p class="BodyA">SS: It was nice talking to you as well.</p>
Original Format
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Audio
Duration
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15min 15sec
Interviewer
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Hannah Sabal
Interviewee
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Sheila Shelton
Location
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Detroit, MI
Video
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<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/fYL_EeghIDw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Sheila Shelton, June 23rd, 2016
Description
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In this interview, Shelton discusses what it was like growing up on the northeast side and how she and her sister were injured in a looting incident in the events of 1967. She discusses what it was like to meet various icons in the city and how Detroit has changed since 1967. She shared her critical thoughts for the future of the city and asserts that in spite of development, more attention needs to be paid to the neighborhoods.
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
Date
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11/29/2016
Rights
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Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Format
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Audio/WAV
Language
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en-US
Type
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Oral History
1967 riot—Detroit—Michigan
Childhood
Children
Curfew
Detroit Police Department
Flint
Growing Up In Detroit
Looting
Mayor Coleman Young
Motown
-
https://detroit1967.detroithistorical.org/files/original/cddc9ccd1a25c39aea1e500d8a5a6130.JPG
caefdddf4bd50434be4917f19864adcb
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Detroit 67: Looking Back to Move Forward
Subject
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Stories gathered to commemorate the summer of 1967 in Detroit.
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
Rights
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Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Language
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en-us
Date
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10/20/2019
Oral History
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Narrator/Interviewee's Name
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Ronald Acho
Brief Biography
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Ronald Acho was born in 1945 in Baghdad, Iraq. He came to the United States in 1949 and his family owned a grocery store in Detroit during the events of July 1967. He is a member of the Chaldean community in Detroit.
Interviewer's Name
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William Winkel
Interview Place
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Bloomfield Hills, MI
Date
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08/16/2016
Interview Length
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00:34:50
Transcriptionist
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Julie Vandenboom
Transcription Date
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09/20/2016
Transcription
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<p> WW: Hello, today is August 16, my name is William Winkel. This interview is for the Detroit Historical Society's Detroit '67 Oral History Project. We are in Bloomfield Hills, Michigan, and I am sitting down with -</p>
<p>RA: Ron Acho.</p>
<p>WW: Thank you so much for sitting down with me today.</p>
<p>RA: My pleasure.</p>
<p>WW: Can you please tell me, where and when were you born?</p>
<p>RA: Yes. I was born in Baghdad, Iraq, on December 18, 1945.</p>
<p>WW: How did your family come to Detroit?</p>
<p>RA: My father had wanted to come to America to escape, basically, discrimination in Iraq, because Iraq was predominately Muslim, and the Christians, for the most part, were treated as second-class citizens, and so he wanted to leave the country, and his older brother, Joe, came to America in 1928, and he told him about all the opportunities. And so he applied to come to America shortly after that. Anywhere from fourteen to nineteen years he waited, in order to be able to come to America, and eventually he did.</p>
<p>WW: Wow.</p>
<p>RA: And then, a year later, he sent for my mom, my brother Andy, and my sister Margaret and I, and we came here on Thanksgiving Day in 1949, which is why Thanksgiving Day is the most important day of the year in our family.</p>
<p>WW: And that year was 1949?</p>
<p>RA: Mm hm.</p>
<p>WW: Did you come to Detroit immediately?</p>
<p>RA: Yes, mm hm, we did.</p>
<p>WW: Why did your father pick Detroit?</p>
<p>RA: Well, he picked Detroit because there were other Chaldeans here, especially his brother, but the story of how Chaldeans came to Detroit is kind of odd, because they really weren't going to come to Detroit - it turned out to be a mistake. I think they were going to go to Chicago. But they wound up being in Detroit and then Henry Ford advertised the five-dollar-a-day job, and so it became a great draw, except Chaldeans couldn't work in the plants because they were all farmers and merchants. So they really couldn't survive in a plant. So that's why you never saw a Chaldean work in a plant.</p>
<p>WW: Do you remember what your first impression of the city was, as a child?</p>
<p>RA: It - yes, I do, because I was born in, essentially, a rural-type setting, and there weren't a lot of people, and they're all homogeneous - they're all people who look like you, and, you know, you had family around you, because that's one thing that Chaldeans do. They gravitate toward family. So basically you lived around family, and that's who you saw, and your whole life consisted of a few blocks. But when I came to Detroit, I couldn't believe what I saw because it was so big, and then you saw cars, and - it was just - it was overwhelming. And part of it, too, you didn't know the language, so it's like being put on a planet, okay, that you really don't know anything about. And so it was very overwhelming.</p>
<p>WW: What neighborhood did you move into?</p>
<p>RA: Well, we lived in a few places. The first place, we lived with some family for a week or two - we - we slept on the floor. You know, they let us, I mean, they took care of us. Then my dad sublet a flat on Virginia Park and Hamilton. My whole life consisted almost of Hamilton Avenue, I'll tell you that in a minute. And we lived above a movie theater, called Virginia Park Movie Theater, which would be near Midtown. And we lived there for a few months, then one day I came home and all our possessions - meager ones - were on the street. We were evicted. And what happened is that the man that my father paid - who had the lease - didn't pay the landlord. So we were evicted, so I saw my mother in the street, crying. It was pretty traumatic.</p>
<p>Then we wound up moving to a - we stayed, again, with family for a couple days. Then we had a flat for a little while on Hamilton near Milwaukee, and we lived there for a while. And then we wound up moving, on Hamilton and Burlingame - there's a reason for that - and then years later moved three blocks away, to Hamilton and Tuxedo. The reason is, my dad didn't drive. He never drove. So he took the bus. So you take the Hamilton bus, and then the Dexter bus to our store. So that's why we always lived near Hamilton, until, you know, years later. So.</p>
<p>WW: Given that you couldn't speak the language, did you feel comfortable when you came to the city?</p>
<p>RA: No. In fact, something unusual happened that wouldn't happen today. I remember this, even though it happened sixty-six years ago. We went to register me for kindergarten. My dad takes me in to the school - Fairbanks Elementary - and the woman asked him, what is your son's name? He said "______." She said "what?" "______" "Oh, no, no, no, no. You can't call him that. You have to give him an American name."</p>
<p>So my father says to me in Chaldean, "what do you want to be called?" Well, I didn't know English! You know, I don't know! So he looked up in the air and says "Ronnie. Call him Ronnie." No - he asked me, "Is Ronnie okay?" Okay. He says, "Call him Ronnie." That's how I got my name.</p>
<p>So, do you want me to just tell you a little story?</p>
<p>WW: Go right ahead.</p>
<p>RA: So, you have to understand something. Chaldeans are very hard workers, okay? When we came to America, my brother, mother, sister, and I - all we had was a trunk, with our things in it. Just one trunk, for four people. That was it. So we were poor, no question about it. Poor by any standard. My father worked for my Uncle Joe, who had a store, and he and my younger uncle, who came with him, who wound up living with us, worked there for a couple of years, then they bought a store called Hamway Supermarket, in 1951. They worked seven days a week, sixteen, seventeen-hour days. For years. They - we wound up being somewhat prosperous, which is why, when the riots occurred in '67 - and my uncle didn't believe in insurance - so we had very little. The insurance we had did not even cover the money we owed on the inventory. So here you have a store - we didn't own the building - we had fixtures and inventory - and the riots took everything away. So we went from poor, to somewhat prosperous, to poor again. All within the span of one day.</p>
<p>So the experience always left an indelible mark on me, and still to this day.</p>
<p>WW: Growing up in the city, did you travel around, or did you tend to stay in your own neighborhood?</p>
<p>RA: No, no. We, no. You didn't do that. I mean, you stayed in your neighborhood, and that's something else. The thing that changed Detroit more than anything else - more than the riots - are the expressways. Because what happened is - we had neighborhoods - like Mary would know - we lived in neighborhoods. And you had family around you, you had neighbors, you knew your neighbors. And you took the bus wherever you went. The furthest you went was wherever the bus would take you. So you stayed in those areas. It wasn't until the car became more prevalent, we had the expressways, that you then wound up driving. But my family never took a vacation. So it isn't like we went anywhere. So it was a very confined, you know, area that we stayed in. Work, or school, home, school, work. Back and forth. Home-school-work. And that was it. Three things. That's what you did.</p>
<p>WW: Growing up throughout the 1950's, did you see the city changing?</p>
<p>RA: Oh, yeah. Oh, for sure. I remember Detroit in its heyday. Detroit was the fifth-largest city. It had over two million people. You could do to Detroit, downtown, you'd have trouble walking down Woodward, because there were so many people. And what happened, again, we talked about the expressways, right? I mean this is my philosophy.</p>
<p>[Break in the recording here?]</p>
<p>AR: Yeah, we can continue, go ahead.</p>
<p>WW: [Unintelligible.]</p>
<p>RA: So anyway, Detroit was a wonderful, wonderful city. It had the Detroit Historical Society, had the Institute of Art, had a great library. Belle Isle - I mean, Detroit was wonderful. Now, for people like us - we really didn't go to those places, particularly, because we worked. I mean, we're - we're country people. But living in Detroit meant that you had freedom, you had opportunities, which you did not have in the old country, okay. In fact, I'll tell you a story of my father.</p>
<p>Every single day in the store - every day - he'd hold up a banana. He said "you know, Ronnie, what this is?" Yes, baba, it's a banana. "You know, in the old country, only the rich could eat a banana. Here in America, you can have a banana every day." And finally one day I said, baba, why do you keep telling me - you keep telling me. He said, "I want you to remember how lucky you are to be here. To have the opportunity to be in America, where you can do whatever you want. You can be successful. You don't get that." So he ingrained upon us, the fact that we were lucky to be in America, which is why immigrants, I think, appreciate America more than people who have lived here their whole lives.</p>
<p>That may not necessarily be true, but at least from the immigrants that I see, they appreciate the opportunities. So yes, Detroit was phenomenal. Did I see the changes? Yes. I saw the changes beginning with the expressways, because more people started living in the suburbs. And they then built - which you may not be familiar with - Northland. Northland was the first enclosed mall in America, as I recall.</p>
<p>So what happened is, a lot of well-to-do people started moving to Oak Park, and then Southfield, okay. And what happened is, they left their homes. And a lot of the people who were ethnic, especially, took very good care of their homes. A lot of people moved in from the south. Did not have the same work ethic, didn't have the same pride in their homes. So you could begin seeing a deterioration in the neighborhoods. That was one. Two, the tax base diminished, because you had people moving out. Third, there was an increase in crime. Detroit really was not a crime-ridden city. It wasn't until the changes.</p>
<p>So then, starting in - probably early sixties - you started seeing crime. Now, what happened then, is you had the Detroit Police Department putting things in place like STRESS, and the Big Four. Well, it turns out that they were viewed as targeting African Americans. And that's how Coleman Young eventually became mayor, saying that it was a racist police department. Remember, this was in the sixties, okay.</p>
<p>And so, as a consequence, there was a lot of discontent. The other thing, too, remember, was the auto industry has its ups and downs, okay. When people are off work, there's financial problems. And you wound up finding more unemployment. More unemployment, more crime, more people leaving the city. As you had the people leave the city, you had more problems. Then Detroit did away with the residency requirement for their police. Used to have police living in Detroit. That ended. So as a result, every - virtually every Detroit police offer that I knew - moved outside of the city. So then you didn't have that off-duty presence.</p>
<p>So it kept - it kept multiplying. It kept getting worse, and worse, and worse. A hundred Chaldeans have been murdered in their stores. I've known fifty of them. Some of them friends, relatives. So how many people know fifty people who have been murdered, okay. So Detroit became a problem because of crime, and because people moved to the suburbs. You had your flagship department store, one of the biggest in America, close. So you then had no anchor in downtown Detroit. All the businesses moved out, and up until several years ago, downtown Detroit was a ghost town. Absolutely a ghost town. I wouldn't even take people from out of town downtown.</p>
<p>So you saw a deterioration of the city. You also had a polarizing figure in Coleman Young. I knew the mayor. I knew him on a personal basis. But he was a polarizing figure. So the more he agitated, the more white people left. And it also created more discontent. He had his reasons for being upset, for things that happened to him. But the problem is, as the leader of the city, he did not help the city in that regard. So - getting - do you want to get to the riot down?</p>
<p>WW: I was just about to ask you. Did your family continue living in Detroit throughout the sixties?</p>
<p>RA: No. Because, I told you about the increase in crime - and the expressway made it easy to go to Southfield, especially when my sister got beat up, okay. My mother said "No, we can't live here." We actually lived in Highland Park, which is right across the street from Detroit. But the two were similar. In fact, in '59, Highland Park was selected as one of the ten most beautiful cities in America. But by 1964, it had so much crime that we left. So that's why we moved out.</p>
<p>WW: Why did your family pick Southfield?</p>
<p>RA: Because there were other Chaldeans there. Because Chaldeans, believe it or not, tended to follow the Jewish people. They would - the Jewish people moved to Oak Park and Southfield. And the Chaldeans have an affinity for the Jewish people. There are so many similarities. That's why, when you hear about conflicts in the middle east, that's foreign to Chaldeans, because Chaldeans love the Jewish people, and Jewish people have been very supportive.</p>
<p>In fact, the man who owned our store, the building, couldn't have been a nicer landlord. He was Jewish. So Southfield was the new suburb, and it was also close to Detroit, because it was the town next to Detroit. So we just take the expressway and we could go to the store.</p>
<p>WW: How did you first hear what was going on in July?</p>
<p>RA: I got a call at home, saying, "Ronnie, be careful, there's some problems on 12th Street. There's some burning." Now, 12th Street was not really close to us. It was a couple miles away - I mean, it wasn't something that immediately caused me concern.</p>
<p>WW: By "close to us" do you mean to your home?</p>
<p>RA: To our store. Our store. So I go into the store that morning, and there's no - no news about this, nothing reported. In fact, I was told it was purposely not reported, okay, so as not to get people anxious. But what happened is, I saw the smoke started to come closer. And then at one point - our store wasn't very far from Grand Boulevard and Grand River. And there was a fire at Grand Boulevard and Grand River, at a furniture store. I think it was called Charles Furniture, as I recall.</p>
<p>And so then I became alarmed, then. Called my brother Andy. I said Andy, you oughta get down here because I'm concerned. So as things began to heat up, we put tobacco - the cigarettes - and money in our car. Then I saw two guys with torches coming down the street. Yeah. Just like out of a movie, like a Frankenstein movie - there were two guys with torches, walking towards us. Now they're only like a block away - I mean, where are they going? They weren't - they weren't torching any houses, and there were no other stores or buildings, other than ours. So we got out quickly - had my butcher knife.</p>
<p>And then customers started to call us. And they were essentially telling us what was going on . "They're breaking your windows, they're doing this, they're doing that." They actually burned our store three times. They couldn't get it the first time, they couldn't get it the second time, but they got it the third time.</p>
<p>WW: When you say they didn't get it the first or second time - the store just didn't catch on fire?</p>
<p>RA: No, it caught fire - but it didn't burn down.</p>
<p>WW: Okay.</p>
<p>RA: And there was a lot of looting. Now there's something else too, that was controversial. Mayor Jerome Cavanagh gave a do not shoot order. As a result there was widespread looting and you'd see National Guard doing nothing. For the first few days. So it was an open invitation.</p>
<p>WW: How did your parents react to what was going on?</p>
<p>RA: What do you think? Devastated. It was what my father worked his whole life for. He had nothing now. I mean, you - you have to understand. When you're poor, you appreciate whatever you get, okay. Whether it's a pen, a book, whatever it is, you appreciate it. Then you built up a store. It becomes very successful. And then someone takes it away from you.</p>
<p>And it wasn't our customers - our customers who were African American were wonderful. They treated us well. In fact, some of them even offered to give us some money, okay. I mean, that's the kind of people we had. So when they talk about the race riots, and they refer to African Americans, I don't view it that way. Not at all. I view it as insurrectionists, anarchists, who may have happened to be African American, but were not representative of the African American community. They certainly weren't representing the African American community that I knew. People I went to school with, people I - I worked with. Not at all. These were people that used their anger to promote a violence. You know, it's a justification for what they did. So my father was extremely depressed, and I was bitter, frankly. I was angry with God. How could you allow this to happen? And, again, letting people do whatever they want with no police action. None. None. If someone breaks into your house, and you know it, and the police know it, and they don't do anything, how do you feel? And they take everything you own. Everything.</p>
<p>WW: Did your family immediately - what was your first reaction? Just to abandon the store, or to rebuild?</p>
<p>RA: Well, we wanted to rebuild, but we had cheap rent, because the building was old. This building was probably built in the thirties, okay. It was called Hamway Supermarket, but you'd laugh today, because it was about twice the size of a Seven Eleven. So it wasn't a supermarket, but in the thirties and forties, it was, because they had fresh meat, produce. The landlord said "I will build, but I can't charge you the same rent, because I have to build this new building." So we couldn't afford the rent. And we didn't have any insurance money, because the ten thousand we had paid off some of the creditors.</p>
<p>See, what we used to do in the store business, you would pay for your groceries the week after you got them. Like for instance, we would get bread twice a week. On a Monday and a Thursday, okay. Sometimes three times - but just so - Monday and Thursday. The Monday bread you didn't pay for. When they came in with the Thursday bread, you paid for Monday's bread. And then the following Monday, you paid for Thursday's bread. Same thing for all the other groceries. Some you paid right away, okay, that's different. Like the fresh meat you had to pay for right away.</p>
<p>But a lot of the food, you got on credit, so you would pay a week later. We had a lot of inventory, but we owed a lot of money. So that was never an option.</p>
<p>WW: What did your family do afterwards?</p>
<p>RA: Well, struggled. What happened is, in fact, turn that off for a second - by the way, that judge just died.</p>
<p>WW: Were you and your brother able to salvage anything else from the store?</p>
<p>RA: No. And the problem is, once you have a fire, you have smoke damage, so there's always a risk of contamination, so we - we salvaged nothing. Nope. You asked what we did -</p>
<p>WW: No, no -</p>
<p>RA: For money. I'll tell you. What happened is, I had to get a job. And I got a job at Ford, thanks to my brother Andy. He made an introduction, he helped me get this job. But I didn't have a degree, and this job required a degree. And this is where the good comes out. Like I say, I was very angry with God, because I wanted to have a chain of supermarkets. That's what I wanted, and I knew I'd make a good living, because I was good at the grocery business. And that's all I knew. Anyway, so they said to me, "we're going to hire you, but you've got to go back to college and get a degree. You don't have a degree."</p>
<p>Well, the day I went, I met my love of my life, my future wife, and my cousin Mary down there. If I didn't lose the store, I had no intention of going back to college - none at all. I only had like a year, a year and a half, that's all. I wasn't going to go back. They required me to go back. Well, what happened is, I met her in the cafeteria line. She was behind me, she caught my eye - and then we wound up dating, and became married. And last week was forty-seven years. On top of that, because I was at Ford, I had employment, and I had six promotions in eight years. And I won three awards, and I graduated summa cum laude from college. And then law school, I did well, which Ford paid for.</p>
<p>Well, I wound up becoming a lawyer and I have six offices now. And had we not lost the store I would have never met my wife, never married her, and would never have become an attorney. I had no dreams of becoming a lawyer. So it was the best day and the worst day of my life, at the same time.</p>
<p>WW: You speak about how bitter your family was. Did you avoid coming to the city after that?</p>
<p>RA: No, no. Again - this was not about race. People keep saying "the race riots." Yes, there were people that were African American and vented, okay - but that doesn't mean it was about race, because the stores that were torched were not stores that gouged people, they weren't stores that mistreated - in fact, most of the stores re-opened, and they re-opened to the same customers. If they were not good people, why would they re-open, and why would the people shop there? The African American community has been very supportive of the Chaldean community.</p>
<p>Now I also played on an all-black baseball team for five years, okay. So this business about race is really over-done, okay. I mean, you can talk about the police shootings, and there's a whole gamut of things. The reality is, the riots were spawned from a variety of things, and it isn't because it was strictly people of color. That really isn't it. I don't believe it. Never have.</p>
<p>WW: Backtracking -</p>
<p>RA: But there is discrimination; it goes both ways. There are white people who discriminate and there are black people who discriminate. People are people - that's what you have to look at. Not a class of people. Mary and I are Chaldean, but are we representative of all the Chaldeans? No. There are some that might be better - although I don't think so, Mary - but there'd be some that aren't as nice. So you have to look at people individually, and not as a class.</p>
<p>WW: Backtracking, really quick, because I skipped a question.</p>
<p>RA: I sound like I'm lecturing, I don't mean to do that.</p>
<p>WW: Did you or any of your family members sense anything coming that summer, in July?</p>
<p>RA: No. No. There was a problem with unemployment, okay, and there was a problem with people leaving the city - things like that - but no, not a sense that there's going to be something occurring, no. No.</p>
<p>WW: Are you optimistic for the city today?</p>
<p>RA: Well, yeah. I mean, if you'd asked me ten years ago it would be a different answer, but the answer is yes. First of all, most everything comes in a cycle, okay. The automobile industry is a perfect example. Wall Street's an example. Real estate's an example. Detroit was going to come back - it was just a question of when. Now, thanks to the Ford family, thanks to Mike Ilitch, thanks to Dan Gilbert, it hastened the renaissance of the city. And having good mayors, like Dave Bing, Mayor Duggan, who's excellent.</p>
<p>So the right things are happening and you can see it, because major parts of the city - downtown, midtown, Corktown - are all very strong. It's a matter of transferring that growth and vitality into the neighborhoods. The crime is still - crime and education are still the two major problems, and Detroit doesn't have the money. It really needs three times as many police it has. It really does.</p>
<p>And education - if you don't get that straightened out, people are not going to want to have their kids here. You see the explosion in downtown Detroit, but they're all young people. Not with families.</p>
<p>So those are two issues that I'm confident that the mayor and the legislature will do the things necessary. So I'm very, very high on the city - I own a duplex in Detroit. I've looked for other properties - not to flip - I mean, my wife Rita has always been a champion for Detroit. In fact, we were going to buy the Ransom Gillis mansion, okay. We didn't get it, but she wanted it, and the reality is, because she wanted - not for money - she wanted to fix it up, and have it as a testament to the grandkids to see what the grandparents did, for Detroit.</p>
<p>So the answer is yes, unequivocally.</p>
<p>WW: Well, is there anything else you'd like to share today?</p>
<p>RA: Well, first of all, I appreciate the opportunity. I think this is a very noble project. I don't think people really grasped what happened. The - you have to look at the totality of the years - of the fifty years, and the twenty years before sixty-seven - not twenty years, ten years - where things occurred. And again, I know the expressway sounds like it's silly, but - it's just some other thing. Because Detroit didn't have - also didn't have mass transportation, which is another problem. Had they not built the expressways, and continued with mass transportation, Detroit would have not had all these things occur. So things change, and what it is - you evolve, and you deal with it.</p>
<p>And the city is - and I think the whole secret is really jobs. That you cannot have high unemployment and have as many children out of wedlock. It's a major problem, and people don't talk about it, but the numbers I hear are staggering, in Detroit.</p>
<p>Chaldeans - which I'm proud to say I am one - were blessed to have a strong family structure, starting with the grandparents - not the parents - the grandparents. Then the parents. Then the children, because when children have parents and grandparents, they have a strength and a support.</p>
<p>Part of the reason the Chaldeans are so successful is that they work hard, but there's another component, that is not typical. They help each other in the community. Like my uncle helped my dad. But also people like Mike George, and his father - other Chaldeans loaned money to my dad and uncle. Then my dad and uncle did the same thing for others, and they brought people from the old country to work for them, for us. So you had all of that support, which is what people need, okay.</p>
<p>Life is hard, and if you don't have the direction and you don't have the support, it makes it very, very hard, you know. So I'm optimistic that things have turned in Detroit. The Chaldeans are an instrumental part of that, too. You have to understand. Chaldeans have so many stores in Detroit, and they help the community, because they do things for those neighborhoods, okay. You could - you should really talk to some of the other people, and that is why Detroit will get stronger, because of the Chaldean influence.</p>
<p>WW: Thank you so much for sitting down with me today. I really appreciate it.</p>
<p>RA: You're welcome. I enjoyed it. Enjoyed it.</p>
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
Audio/WAV
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
William Winkel
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Ronald Acho
Location
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Bloomfield Hills, MI
Video
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<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/oeL8GrPoIqw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ronald Acho, August 16th, 2016
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview, Acho discusses life as an immigrant in Detroit, as well as his extensive ties with Detroit's Chaldean community.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Detroit Historical Society
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
09/20/2016
Rights
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Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Format
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Audio/WAV
Language
A language of the resource
en-US
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Oral History
1967 riot—Detroit—Michigan
Arson
Business Owners
Chaldean Community
Detroit Community Members
Mayor Coleman Young
Mayor Jerome Cavanagh
STRESS
The Big Four
-
https://detroit1967.detroithistorical.org/files/original/576f33114b25f54d9b5e98a3c70a2693.JPG
afc56b9b0fab53c0f1978a9c1e961d63
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Detroit 67: Looking Back to Move Forward
Subject
The topic of the resource
Stories gathered to commemorate the summer of 1967 in Detroit.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Detroit Historical Society
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Language
A language of the resource
en-us
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
10/20/2019
Oral History
An audio or video resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Narrator/Interviewee's Name
The current first and last name of the person speaking or being interviewed.
Richard Feldman
Brief Biography
A short biography of the Interviewee
Richard Feldman was born in 1949. He was born in Brooklyn and then moved to Michigan to attend the University of Michigan in 1967. He later worked for the Ford Motor Company and was a union representative.
Interviewer's Name
The first and last name of the interviewer.
William Winkel
Interview Place
The place where the interview was conducted.
Detroit, MI
Date
The date of the interview in MM/DD/YYYY format.
08/19/2016
Interview Length
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00:42:52
Transcriptionist
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Robert Lazich
Transcription Date
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09/20/2016
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
William Winkel: Hello, today is August 19, 2016. My name is William Winkel. This interview is for the Detroit Historical Society’s Detroit 67 Oral History Project. I am sitting down with Mr. Richard Feldman. Thank you so much for sitting down with me today.
Richard Feldman: Great to be here.
WW: Can you tell me when and where were you born?
RF: I was born in Brooklyn, New York in 1949 and went to public high school in New York and then moved in 1967 to the University of Michigan to go to college and then subsequently moved to Detroit in 1970.
WW: When you were in Ann Arbor, did you anticipate that you would come to Detroit afterwards, or were you just trying to find yourself?
RF: When I started school in 1967, it’s so important to know that ’67 obviously there was the rebellion in Detroit. It was also learning later the year that Martin Luther King gave his speech “Beyond Vietnam: Breaking the Silence” where he talked about the evil triplets of racism, materialism and militarism would lead to a radical revolution in values. I say that because 1967 was a very important moment. I came to Detroit, I came to Ann Arbor in August of 1967 to start school and the first person I heard speak was Reverend Clay. I was a young white liberal student, 18 years old, from New York and heard this extremely charismatic, vibrant, energetic challenging black leader talk about racism and the significance of the rebellion and capturing the attention of the world through this rebellion, because of this rebellion. From that period on it was just a matter of months before I got very involved in the anti-war movement working to support the Black Panther party, the women’s movement over the next number of years. Went to Chicago in 1968 and went to Woodstock in ’69, went to the United Front Against Fascism organized by the Black Panther party in Oakland, California in 1969. So I became an activist student in Ann Arbor, Michigan for Students for a Democratic Society during the next three years. That became much more important than my studies as such. Studies were just coincidental. As the ‘60s ended we began to talk about how we move from the campuses to work in cities and continue this commitment to radical change, revolution – I’m trying to think of the words we used then – and during my time in Ann Arbor I also went to support wildcat strikes in the auto industry that were occurring in the late ‘60s. So there was a period of militancy. Among workers there was a clear, growing popular conversation about black power, what does that mean. So when 1970 it came time for us to leave, we decided to come to Detroit because that’s where the revolution was happening already because so much organizing had taken place before and after the rebellion.
WW: Before you went to Ann Arbor, and people spoke about what was going on in July 1967, did you ever hear “rebellion” or “uprising” when you were in New York? Or was that new terminology when you showed up in Ann Arbor?
RF: It was new terminology when the word people would use then is “they rioted in the streets.” So they rioted in the streets first in Harlem in ’64, then Watts in ’65, then Detroit in ’67 and then Newark in ’67 too, I think?
WW: ’66.
RF: ’66, thank you. So the word was “you were rioting.” The cause, when it was discussed in the media, it wasn’t discussed as part of a political social revolution taking place. It wasn’t seen as part of a way to define change or a moment of change. I only began to understand the word rebellion through the work of James and Grace Lee Boggs because Jimmy and Grace, who along with a few other folks, were named as the people responsible for the uprising and rebellion by Lomax in the newspaper even though they were on vacation. But they had been organizers with Reverend Clay to bring Martin Luther King here in ’63 along with Reverend Franklin and then bring Malcolm X here in the fall of ’63 to message the Grass Roots conference. After the rebellion they went and – what I think I understood as I look back now, what I didn’t understand then was that people were angry, people were trying to do something, and life gets really messy when that happens. I don’t think I understood that – I think I understood change as out of chaos and anger comes a new world. Because for the first time in history there’s this massive, massive uprising by African Americans by whom this country was built. There had been significant resistance and significant protest over the decades but nothing like the civil rights and Black Power movement brought to the fore in the ‘50s and ‘60s and into the early ‘70s in this country. Jimmy and Grace when they saw this uprising in ’67 said “How come this doesn’t lead to revolution? Why is this not a revolution?” They made this distinction between rebellion and revolution and also the distinction between riots, rebellion and revolution, which was very important because there had been lots of riots in this country. Most of the riots, in fact all the riots, were lynching of blacks by whites or the burnings of blacks in Tulsa, Oklahoma of burning of entire areas of Florida where blacks lived. Whites had always rioted against blacks and then put them on these – you know, a thousand people would come and watch a lynching. The terrorism of whites was a riot. It was not until to my understanding pretty much until ’43 when blacks fight back in Detroit over on the Belle Isle – the baby incident, the alleged rape incident and all this other stuff you still see the pent-up energy of fighting back. But the rebellion was different -- because the rebellion is after 12, 13 years of civil rights and Black Power activities. But Jimmy and Grace were very clear that it was not a revolution because a rebellion is when you reject, you act out of the injustice and the pain and you reject what is taking place. Revolution is when you move from rejections to projections and you also say, “What kind of human beings do we need to become?” That’s how do we change ourselves in to change the world. Revolution is when you are talking about governing a new kind of country, not just protesting so somebody else can solve the problems for you. I didn’t understand this obviously when I was 18 and 20, it’s come from many years of study and conversations and looking around the world. There was a rebellion in Tiananmen Square. It didn’t go beyond that. There was the Arab Spring, which was a rebellion. What’s happening now in Milwaukee and different parts of the country since Ferguson are uprisings and rebellions. They’re not riots. Riots are a way to blame people and put people down for their anger and their frustration rather than see it as part of the stage of historical evolution of social change. Therefore the challenge of looking back 50 years with this important project that you’re all doing is to say “How since that rebellion have people developed the language, some of the initiatives, some of the thinking, to move us forward towards new concepts of revolution.” Really the challenge is what does revolution look like as we move from the 50th anniversary to the 100th anniversary, which is what I myself and others around the city and around the country have dedicated to themselves from moving from this moment towards creating a sustainable, local communities with democracy where folks can not only have a place to work but a life of creating carrying communities.
WW: The wildcat strikes for the auto workers that you supported, they were in the metro area?
RF: They were in the metro area. One was at Fruehauf, the trucking company, if you remember that; I’m glad you asked me. That was when we got up really early in the morning and – you know when you’re young and excited about people standing up for themselves, you get up at these weird times of the hour like 4:00 in the morning and you drove from Ann Arbor to support the workers. Then as we began to learn about the League of Revolutionary Black Workers and some of the wildcats that went on there we would be supportive of – some were in Detroit, some were in Macomb County is what I remember. I had been to a wildcat strike at the Ford Mahwah plant in Jersey, the summer before I actually came to Ann Arbor because some of my cousins were involved in the student movement and the wildcats that were going on in some of the plants. Because workers played such an important role in the 30s in creating the unions, obviously, and radicals played such an important role in that, our thinking was you continue to encourage that militancy and that standing up for yourselves and somehow the past would be repeated. That’s really looking back fifty years the main lesson I’ve come to try to understand where the vision you have for change at one time is not sufficient for the vision or the strategy of the thinking of the language for another time. It takes a lot to, as Grace and Jim would say, to think dialectically to realize that the world changes. I went into work in a plant after I left Ann Arbor and spent 20 years on the line at Ford Motor Company in Wayne, Michigan at the Ford truck plant then, a plant that moved from the complex over on Livernois to Wayne as part of the movement of work from the city to the suburbs. A plant that in the 1980s saw this mass technological displacement of people. My plant went from like 4,000 people to 2,000 people and we produced the same amount of vehicles. So the role of wildcats, the role of workers – we romanticize the past period rather than realize it emerged from a particular moment. I do these tours “From Growing Our Economies to Growing Our Souls” and start at the Packard plant. If you look at the Packard plant it is three levels and it has no fence around it. If you go to the GM Poletown plant – that’s what we call it, we don’t call it the Hamtramck Assembly Plant. You see a fence around it and you see one level. That architecture reflects the energy crisis that emerges in the ‘70s and it reflects the design of a plant that goes from three levels to one level. So you don’t move vehicles up and down through conveyors and elevators and you can do just in time delivery. It reflects when the U.S. had a monopoly of the auto industry to the globalization of the auto industry. So I went into the plant because I wanted to bring forth that strength and that love and that belief that workers would make a revolution. I wrote a book “End of the Line: Automakers and the End of the American Dream” in 1988, which is an oral history about the rebellion and what the wildcats did for my work in the plant is to help me uplift the struggle against racism in the plant, to helping blacks get elected as union representatives that helped fight racism in the plant and all the other “isms” because it gave me the spirit that people really make change. I think that for me as a person who has committed myself to this journey is being able to find in history how these moments represented hope even though they look chaotic and confusing and obviously are painful for many people. Because when I moved here in the ‘70s there were organizations in every neighborhood from welfare rights organizing to the Panthers to the League to collectives of students, you just had this sense – there were newspapers being put out, underground newspapers. I was with the State Opinion for a number of years, the South End Press was a radical journal, and everybody and their uncle was putting out underground newspapers. We lived in River Rouge in Ecorse because we were organizing white, working class youth but that was our challenge. So that they would understand what took place in Detroit. I don’t know if I ever saw it written but the story in Wyandotte, Michigan is that in ’67 they put a Gatling gun on that bridge to make sure that none of the blacks were coming from Detroit to take over the all white neighborhood of Wyandotte. From our organizing and a newspaper called Down the River, that was from folks who shared those stories.
WW: When you came to Detroit to work on the wildcat strikes and when when you came to live here, you said you lived in River Rouge, what was your first impression of the city? Was the city welcoming to you? Were you cautious when you went anywhere? What was your feeling towards the city?
RF: I totally felt welcomed. I think in 1970 it was 50-50 black white, maybe 55 black, 45 white. To give you a sense as to how it worked, we came and all of us lived in a large, large house on Commonwealth. This was right – I’m trying to think when the Matthau gym was put up and people were displaced, I don’t remember the year. It was the beginning of the expansion of Wayne State. So we lived over in that area then after about six months we divided up into different collectives; some went to the West Side, women decided to go live together to create a stronger women’s organizing focus, others moved to the East Side, we went to live in River Rouge to organize young, white, working class youths from the steel mills in Zug Island. We did that because the Vietnam War and the rebellion had made symbols of change very prominent among growing numbers of young people. They could be symbols of a Malcolm X poster or they could be symbols of Jimi Hendrix and there was a hunger for people to engage in serious conversation in the plant as well as outside the plant. We went in those very early years and would show films about the civil rights movement, and African liberation struggles, while we’re picketing the military recruiter on Fort Street and Southfield – not Southfield, Fort Street and Southfield Road.
WW: In Lincoln Park?
RF: In Lincoln Park. That’s what I was trying to think of, Lincoln Park. Here we were trying to get young whites -- and a few would come -- to picket this military recruiter because that was a way to challenge the war machine of Vietnam, of the U.S. government towards Vietnam and Southeast Asia. We would host movies in community centers. When I moved in 1970 to Detroit, River Rouge High School was divided two or three rows of whites, two or three rows of blacks and the middle row was empty. What was the most “aha” moment for me – two “aha” moments: one, the importance of working with and learning from the people I was relating to. You’d go to parks and give out these fliers about the war or the Black Panther party, about fighting discrimination, and I was knocked on the head when young people who were the younger brothers and sisters of these teenagers – because I was only 20, so teenagers weren’t that far away from me – but these could have been eight, ten year old, very young people, and they would use words like “spearchucker” and “send them back to Africa” and the level of racist language in the parks and at the fast-food places we would go to was just so filled with venom and so easy for it to come off the lips it challenged me to understand the depth of the significance of racism in the country that I don’t think I felt growing up as a white, Jewish kid in New York with basically liberal parents. I felt understood even in Ann Arbor, Michigan when the black student strike occurred in the spring of 1970 and we shut down the university to demand a 10 percent enrollment of black students at the university which it had never ever, ever reached. To understand how expectations were raised so high because of the response to the rebellion of people organizing, of people building black student movements, black studies departments, anti-racist movements in the campus – winning those initial demands but never, ever them coming to fruition. It was just a fantastic lesson of the structural crisis in this country that we have not yet gained the strength to both envision a new structure let alone create a new structure – thus the massive unemployment, the massive incarceration and so forth. So that was one. The other one was, which was fascinating for me in the plant, because I went in as a radical, militant trade unionist, we would have walkouts over health and safety issues, we’d have walkouts over individuals who were disciplined and you could really clearly see that it was because of racism. We’d have a few wildcat strikes. So you had this sense of militancy to do stuff. People would always ask me, “What do you mean by revolution?” I would talk about other countries. I would talk about Vietnam or China at that point or Cuba. I would talk about the rebellion leading to change, what was happening with the black movement. Mostly they would say, “What about this country?” It forced me to challenge and learn much more about our country and our own history. What Jimmy and Grace Boggs were always very committed to was seeing history of place and taking responsibility for place and space as place is integral to change. So fast forward decades later -- it’s taking responsibility to Detroit’s future, which is part of what revolution entails. It’s knowing the history – and that’s why looking back 50 years is so important – because we’ve never taken responsibility for that history. In fact, the rise of the Trump movement is in many ways our failure to bring that history to this community. I would do it in the plant one-on-one, I would do it conversations and engage people in conversations of, your family came as immigrants, your family gets here and then you begin to be defined as white. You define yourself as white, now it’s time to become human, what does it mean to be human. That’s the journey I think we’re on now 50 years later. To me the narrative of looking back is to what we were, which we did not do, what we did not do successfully, that’s for sure. Why looking at some of the challenges, what does it mean to be human, you can’t do that unless we heal and look in the mirror of our own racism as whites as a society, and Blacks not see themselves as a minority as assuming responsibility for the whole country. That is something that is very important to the work that I had a chance to do over this last period.
WW: Your group of thirty that came from Ann Arbor to settle in Detroit, did you have a name?
RF: The Ann Arbor Thirty. For a while. After a year or so everybody formed different political organizations or created different political organizations. A good number of us are still active in Detroit with some of the anti-foreclosure work, some of the stopping water shutoffs, with some of the urban gardening movement, different coalitions against police brutality -- folks were involved with that for a while. Ron Scott, who I know you’ve interviewed, who was a dear comrade of the James & Grace lee Boggs Center, a dear friend, who also died in this last year. Folks joined things like that and were part of those initiatives. We were a group of people who were inspired by the historical moment that the rebellion in many ways represented to not become cynical, not become solely committed to our privilege or our particular opportunity and at different points made choices. You know, get up every day at 4:00 in the morning to go to the plant was a choice; it wasn’t because I economically needed to do that was the only job. It was a choice that I have no regrets for because I feel that I have learned so much about people and about myself, about change. Folks in the plant would talk about how the rebellion unleashed a potential in their own thinking of what could be. That was profound and that began to shift the image of burnings and jail and the military on the streets, to realize how it impacted most of the folks that become local union elected officials in our plant felt the strength of that moment, that it was their time. So I was glad to be part of that.
WW: You spoke about the racism you experienced passing out fliers and different activities, do you remember any specific moments of pushback in your work that you’d like to share?
RF: Oh, sure. One we got arrested a bunch of times at River Rouge by police. That was pushback. I eventually lost a job at McCloud Steel where I just had my 88th day in but because I was on probation for some arrest in Ann Arbor when the cops stopped me I didn’t want to lie so once I told him the next day I was fired. So that was pushback. I think the major pushback I felt much more in the plant than the general conversations. I can’t remember the particular incident in the neighborhoods. Write down Larry Sparks, Kim Charobie (?), then I’ll sent you a bunch of other names from the folks who had very different experiences. Larry was raised in Wyandotte. Kim was raised on the West Side and still lives in the same neighborhood 50 years later. I think their memories could add to what you’re creating. In the plant I was often attacked by a newsletter that they entitled “The Midnight Rider.” The Midnight Rider took its name from newsletters newspapers from the Klu Klux Klan. So they would put out anti-Rick Feldman. I was always called an n-lover for decades. What’s fascinating, what is very common- and eventually after 20 years on the line to run for union office. Most of my work was more in the community during the cheese line period of the early 1980s and the massive unemployment and permanent layoffs, tens of thousands of people being lined up for a few jobs down at what eventually became the Mazda plant and in different places. But what fascinated me in the plant and what a plant is able to do, it’s a closed environment, so you have to have these through resilience and commitment and just being authentic. People decide either they really like you, really want to do anything they can to discredit you. I always believed it was having honest conversations with people, so I never hid what I believed, if I brought in an article around racism, would distribute it. When I was a union elected official I brought folks in to speak about gay, lesbian and transgender issues too, because they were being harassed in the plant. There were people who would write “dyke” on their cars, and my committee after getting all the materials I’m probably pretty sure to say everyone except for maybe one or two people out of 20 or 30 on the staff took the stuff and would throw it under my desk or under the door because they didn’t want to talk about that stuff. I guess my point is my courage to talk about that, to talk about disability justice, intellectual disability, to talk about every issue came from my courage to take on discussions around racism, which are the hardest and the most difficult. So there were folks in the plant who were part of the Michigan Militia. There were folks in the plant who were proudly Klu Klux Klan members. So every few years someone would put up a noose or a Klan’s hood- I was going to say weird hats- and we would have a big education piece and they would get disciplined and we would have to take a position that it was okay to be disciplined for that but how do you also educate folks. So this is our family who the father really thought I was the devil. He put out this newsletter with his friends from Kentucky and [unintelligible] and difference places in Kentucky and Tennessee and eventually I became the union leader. There was no doubt I was the best union rep he ever had. So he gained respect for me. I never compromised what I would say to him or in my disagreements with him. But history is sort of funny or it is revealing. As he grew older, one of his children was a lesbian, another grandchild married a black guy, so he has black great grandchildren, and to see how much the world has changed on that he still will argue ideologically with me but there is a relation between the anti-liberal ideology and racism but it’s not as clear as it once was. I think it is so important to realize how much the world has changed in relationships, which when I say that does not minimize the structural barbarism that dominates and is more intense now than it ever has in many ways. But it’s those humanizing movements that started with the Montgomery bus boycott through the women’s movement, through the Earth movement, through the gay, lesbian, transgender, through the disability justice movement, that there is a generation that has a different view of what it means to be human. Now how the structures change and create new forms of institutions -- that’s the challenge of the next 50 years. That’s what I see happening in Detroit when I see people creating food security movements, creating food co-ops and grocery stores, creating anti-violence committees. We worked with Save Our Sons and Daughters, We the People to Reclaim Our Streets, Ron Scott created something called Peace Zones for Life, out of the Coalition to the Arts that are so deep in the community, you know, to folks who are making windmills over on the East Side, to others who are using 3D printers. The potential of what’s happening and emerging is to move from these humanizing movements of the last 50 years and the rebellion being a symbol of saying “We have to go somewhere much grander than we could have imagined” is really what allows us to move from rebellion to revolution. Clarifying the language of the ‘60s is really important otherwise we just talk about uprisings or riots or things. So the need to clarify language is really, really important. You clarify language by understanding it historically, not just gut words of “It’s them so they must have rioted.” Rather than yes, it was black folks who were standing up after ten years of a movement and two, three hundred years of racism that was birthed at the founding of our nation that’s so deep in our soul as a nation. Lastly, the grand bargain that happened here to rebuild downtown and saved the Art Institute and all of that was really another expression of the great compromise of the constitution of 1787, 1789?
WW: 1789.
RF: 1789. They started meeting in ’87 and finished in ’89, which was the great compromise of slavery being embedded in our nation as blacks were three fifths of a person. We’ve always had these compromises. The compromise has been white folks and a few others might do okay, do really well, and the rest get left behind. The bankruptcy and the emergency manager in Detroit, had it been in Haiti we would have called it an IMF takeover or a coup d’état. But because we’re a democracy, but because we’re Americans we make up all these legal words and we don’t get to the core or the spirit or the understanding of what is taking place. I know that there are growing numbers of people in our city and across the country that are asking these questions and we see it in Black Lives Matter. We see it in the Occupy, the fight against inequality. We see it in the desire to save the planet as we have a really hot summer. All of these questions are in perspective to the rebellion. Rebellion was one stage. So I’m very thankful- I use these words- I came of age and moved to Michigan. The first person I heard speak was Reverend Clay and then had a chance to work with Jim and Grace Boggs who are good comrades and friends of Reverend Clay in the ‘60s when Reverend Clay ran for governor, the All African People’s Party, regarding Jimmy Jackson who ran for Lieutenant Governor out of Muskegon. To come to Detroit in the late ‘60s early ‘70s and see so many black folks in power by ’73 with Mayor Young winning. Mayor Young’s victory was as significant emotionally as Obama winning. To know that people go through stages and that we go through stages is really, really important. You got enough?
WW: I think for today, yes. Thank you so much for sitting down with me today.
RF: This was great. I hope this helps whatever we’re all putting together.
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
Audio
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
42min 52sec
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
William Winkel
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Robert Feldman
Location
The location of the interview
Detroit, MI
Video
A link to the video
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/RCsB8F8Cr2Q" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Richard Felman, August 19th, 2016
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview, Feldman discusses moving to Michigan and getting a job with the Ford Motor Company. He discusses his experiences as an activist and union representative, the state of race relations at the plant and in the area and his feelings about the unrest in Detroit in 1967.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Detroit Historical Society
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
09/20/2016
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Format
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Audio/WAV
Language
A language of the resource
en-US
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Oral History
1967 riot—Detroit—Michigan
Community Activists
Ford Motor Company
Mayor Coleman Young
Unions
-
https://detroit1967.detroithistorical.org/files/original/c644af5265e2d1bf8a92c7125c381c5f.JPG
2fa301472178b0ffec78ae7ab71a90b4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Detroit 67: Looking Back to Move Forward
Subject
The topic of the resource
Stories gathered to commemorate the summer of 1967 in Detroit.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Detroit Historical Society
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Language
A language of the resource
en-us
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
10/20/2019
Oral History
An audio or video resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Narrator/Interviewee's Name
The current first and last name of the person speaking or being interviewed.
Arthur Divers
Brief Biography
A short biography of the Interviewee
Arthur Divers is an African American male and was born December 12, 1962 and grew up in Detroit, Michigan. His family moved to 7 Mile after the civil disturbance. Divers joined the Detroit Police Department after graduating Ford High School.
Interviewer's Name
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Giancarlo Stefanutti
Interview Place
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Detroit, MI
Date
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07/26/2016
Interview Length
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00:13:29
Transcriptionist
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Ciaran McCourt
Transcription Date
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08/04/2016
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p>GS: Hello, today is July 26, 2016. My name is Giancarlo Stefanutti and this interview is for the Detroit Historical Society’s 67 Oral History Project, and I’m sitting down with Arthur Divers today. Thank you for sitting down with me today.</p>
<p>AD: Thank you.</p>
<p>GS: So where and when were you born?</p>
<p>AD: December 12, 1962.</p>
<p>GS: Okay, where were you born?</p>
<p>AD: Here in Detroit, Michigan.</p>
<p>GS: Okay. So where did you grow up as a child?</p>
<p>AD: My first residence was 9362 North Martindale.</p>
<p>GS: Okay, and what did your parents do growing up?</p>
<p>AD: My father was a retired educator and my mother’s a homemaker.</p>
<p>GS: Okay, do you have any siblings?</p>
<p>AD: Yes I have a brother and a sister.</p>
<p>GS: Okay. So what was your neighborhood like then, growing up? Was it very racially integrated?</p>
<p>AD: At that time – in that area, there was Joy Road – Joy Road, the Jeffries Freeway, Dexter, all that pretty much was black. However the businesses over there were white, and there were Jewish people. And you had business of all type of variety you could think of on Joy Road. You know, now it’s nothing but vacant lots, but you had businesses back to back there were no gaps and vacant lots. No, it was businesses on both sides of the street.</p>
<p>GS: Okay, where did you go to school?</p>
<p>AD: Oh at that time, I started kindergarten at Keiden School, which is two blocks south of that location on Martindale.</p>
<p>GS: Okay, was that very racially integrated?</p>
<p>AD: That was mostly blacks. Yeah, at that time, yeah.</p>
<p>GS: So you were born in the early 60s, so I don’t know if as a child you could sense any tension, but could you, you know?</p>
<p>AD: You know, at that time I couldn’t sense any racial tension, but I saw a lot going on, but I didn’t get a connection on it until I got older and – quite naturally after I joined the police department, saw life from a completely different perspective, but I had no understanding that whites and blacks had these deep-seeded issues. But I did see a lot of stuff, now as I’ve got older I said ‘oh, I see how that happened, I see why that happened’.</p>
<p>GS: Could you describe what one of those things were?</p>
<p>AD: Well, that whole area there was the epicenter for that riot. That riot sprawled all up and down Joy Road, Warren, Michigan, they burned all of Grand River up in there. That’s the area that I lived in – but like I said that was a heavy business district, you had a variety of thriving businesses in that area, but again at that time they were primarily run by Europeans or Jews – and then there were a few Middle Eastern people, but it was primarily Europeans and Jews that ran those. They had drycleaners, beauty shops, we had dime stores back then – that was a dollar store now– Shoe shops, place to get your haircut, they fixed cars; there was a variety of things. And the funeral home – the funeral home is still there.</p>
<p>GS: So moving to the riot itself, where were you when you first heard about it?</p>
<p>AD: Okay, my experience with the riot was this: my dad he’s a retired educator, at that time he was a regular teacher, and we frequented that Joy Road area to go home. And my grandparents lived on Gladstone right off Twelfth Street. And Twelfth Street was where the riot was, and that area there again was heavily – it was stores, businesses, clubs. What happened specifically, the nights of the riot, we pulled up on Joy Road to, Petoskey, the intersection now has a liquor store on the corner, and there’s a house there. The house’s address is – 4209 Joy Road – that house is still on the corner. That house still stands there today because that was a Michigan State Police National Guard Command Center for that area. So you had officers changing shifts, you had tanks coming in and out of there, you had soldiers in formation, they were having roll call there, I became aware of that because we pulled up there, you have to pass Petoskey to get to Martindale, and the soldiers, they had everybody stopped. And, I had never seen a rifle. I’m 53 and at then my parents didn’t own firearms. So I’m a little guy, looking out the back seat of the car, and my dad says “You sit here, I’ll go talk to them,” and it was two white soldiers from the National Guard, and he had a rifle and a bayonet. I had never seen a rifle or a bayonet, and I’m like “boy, that thing looks sharp!” And he talked to them, they talked to him, and he got in the car and we pulled off, and we went through this everyday. They knew him and he knew them. And you had the state police there and you had the National Guard there. They exchanged gunfire between the authorities and the black residents; they had ran all night and all day, particularly all night. It got so fierce one night until, my mother, she forced all our bodies on the floor, and she threw her body on top of us and she started praying. The fighting was just that intense that night, yeah. And it was tanks up and down Joy Road, you had tanks, you had soldiers, you had Detroit police out there, and the place burned. Everything burned. The houses burned, all the businesses down there burned, the only ones that didn’t burn were, you had some people that had their own armed security, you had several business guys who were out there with their shotguns standing in front of their stuff so it didn’t burn. But a lot of it burned. A lot of people lost their homes, and they just gutted – that’s why you don’t have a Warren - young people like your age asking “Well, what was here?” Well, all that was there prior to the riot. That’s why you don’t have a Joy Road, a Twelfth Street, Harper burned on the East side; Jefferson – what’s the other big one over there – Dexter, Linwood, Woodrow. All those were businesses on both sides of the street, and the reason why they’re vacant lots now is because they either burned them down or in later years the city came and demolished that property.</p>
<p>GS: With the National Guard being there did you and your family feel more secure or were you more concerned?</p>
<p>AD: Well, we felt more secure because the local authorities couldn’t handle that. You know, you had the state police coming in, you had the National Guard coming in, then you had the military come in, but it was needed. But the place burned and burned – it looked like it wouldn’t stop burning and it wouldn’t stop shooting.</p>
<p>GS: How was your neighborhood reacting, similar to your family?</p>
<p>AD: Yeah, yeah. Everybody was on lockdown in the house. And they had what they call a curfew, you couldn’t come out by a certain day at a certain this – you had to drive way out to get groceries and come back. You know, yeah.</p>
<p>GS: So moving towards, you know post riot, could you sense any changes in Detroit? You were still pretty young.</p>
<p>AD: After then my dad moved us, it had to be about ‘69, he moved us from that area out to the John Lodge and 7 Mile. Due to schools, the crime, and then that riot situation, and the decline in the quality of life. After that riot happened that area down there, there was a serious decline in the quality of life after they burned everything down. He moved us - that was either ‘68 or ‘69 - he moved us over on Morrow and Margarita, 7 Mile Lodge area. And then that’s why I subsequently went to Winship Elementary School, and then I went on to Ford High School from there, and then after that I joined the Detroit Police Department.</p>
<p>GS: Could you just provide an example of how your old neighborhood, you know, lowered in way of life and quality of life?</p>
<p>AD: Well, there’s nothing down there anymore, all the stores are gone, and they had every kind of store down there you could sit here and make a list. Joy Road had every kind of store you could think of, and all that’s gone after that riot. So there’s no place to shop, they had theatre there – The Riviera – which used to be there on Grand River and Joy Road, it’s gone, it’s a federal facility now, social security administration’s in there now they tore the place down, that used to be a theatre, we used to go to that theatre all the time there, yeah, it went out of business because of the lack of population in the area, they couldn’t make money.</p>
<p>GS: So a lot of people call the riot using different terms like ‘ rebellion’ or ‘uprising’ and you were very young, but looking back now would you call it one of these terms or would you still call it a riot?</p>
<p>AD: I’d call that a riot. Because the whole city was on lockdown for five to seven days, and Romney and Cavanagh – from video footage that I saw – they were doing the best they could to handle that situation. I personally don’t believe that Cavanagh thought that, the black community would rise up like that and have that much going on. From what I’ve read, and people I’ve met, he was trying to mend that, trying to have some order, some respect, amongst the races in the city of Detroit.</p>
<p>GS: So how do you see Detroit today?</p>
<p>AD: Well I see Detroit today struggling to get all in line with all the other big cities that have nicer facilities than we do, you know. And that’s probably one of the major reasons why we don’t have a thriving business district is because of that riot. We had one at one point, and after that the whole business thing went in the tubes, and we’re trying to come out of that. They’ve done a lot of work down here, Midtown; and they’ve done a lot downtown, but okay what about the neighborhoods? We had nice stuff in the neighborhoods prior to that riot; they had every kind of store, or restaurant, that you could think of. You know like they have out in the suburbs, well Detroit was like that at one time. You go out to Farmington Hills, Novi, West Bloomfield; Detroit was like that! We had stores and theatres and clubs like that, prior to that riot, but that riot sucked the commercial life out of the city, and then a lot of the blacks left – the whites they had been leaving anyway– they accelerated that. And then I know it’s one thing, after all that the Middle Easterns came in and they bought all the liquor licenses, so they have a lock on all the liquor stores now, they have a lock on a lot of the grocery stores now, those people weren’t that prominent in that liquor industry or that grocery industry, that was run by Europeans primarily and some Jews. Arabs didn’t have that kind of influence, but they have it now, they’re some hard working people. Yeah, they work twelve, sixteen, eighteen hours, yeah.</p>
<p>GS: Well is there anything else you would like to add?</p>
<p>AD: Well, you know, the interesting thing about this, you know, the focus at that time of the riot – the grievance, I’ll say – was mistreatment of the citizens by white male officers, and I guess that’s what we’re coming back to now, you know. That’s just the funny thing about it. After that riot, Cavanagh left, we had [Roman] Gribbs in there, and then Coleman [Young] came in, and what he did with the department, he went to Washington, he got federal money, and he dismantled the white male leadership. And he forced that agency to hire blacks like myself, and minorities, and females of all races on that job, and integrate that job, and then they created a thing called crime prevention where the officers actually go out – you say Community Policing – it was crime prevention back then. I worked there before I got promoted, and mending this [unintelligible] relationship with some friendship with these people, everybody wants to see somebody that looks like them in an authority position. And you know he changed a lot of that, to the point where it is now. I kind of benefitted from it in that kind of way, but I work with some very good white male officers, I worked with some that were openly prejudiced – but I worked with some that say ‘I’m not with that, I’ll work with you, alright this is my first year or so on the job I’ll work with you.’ And they showed me some of everything that I needed to make it out there on that street, to deal with the citizens, the bosses, and stay alive out there, so you know. And there’s good and bad in that profession, I worked internal affairs for six years, I’ve dealt with blacks that weren’t that good, that were shady, and I’ve worked with whites that weren’t that good and shady and I had to deal with them. But those are things that paused a fallout from that riot or some people say rebellion, I say it was a riot because it was extremely violent, extremely dangerous, and the city almost burned down, if they hadn’t done that inter agency thing with the state police, the National Guard to come here because the Detroit Police couldn’t handle that it was too much. Cavanagh and his people they couldn’t handle it.</p>
<p>GS: Wow. All right, well thank you for sitting down with me today.</p>
<p>AD: Okay, sure.</p>
<p>GS: Thank you.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>[TIME STAMP END OF INTERVIEW 13:29]</p>
<p class="Normal1">[End of Track 1]</p>
<p class="Normal1"> </p>
Original Format
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audio
Duration
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13min 29sec
Interviewer
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Giancarlo Stefanutti
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Arthur Divers
Location
The location of the interview
Detroit, MI
Video
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<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/S74zwoTQvs8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Arthur Divers, July 26th, 2016
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview, Arthur Divers describes what it was like living in his black community during the disturbance. He discusses the various businesses that existed before the disturbance, and how it has drastically changed the community since then. He also explains racial relations within the city as well as the Detroit Police Department, and how that had an effect on him personally.
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
Date
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08/05/2016
Rights
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Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Format
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audio/WAV
Language
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en-US
Type
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Oral History
1967 riot—Detroit—Michigan
Childhood
Children
Detroit Police Department
Governor George Romney
Growing Up In Detroit
Mayor Coleman Young
Mayor Jerome Cavanagh
Michigan National Guard
-
https://detroit1967.detroithistorical.org/files/original/58bd1cb9d3db3a11b2d41b4161a29dab.jpg
b88bb6d51cc0d912d61448d3dbe201e8
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Detroit 67: Looking Back to Move Forward
Subject
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Stories gathered to commemorate the summer of 1967 in Detroit.
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Language
A language of the resource
en-us
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
10/20/2019
Oral History
An audio or video resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Narrator/Interviewee's Name
The current first and last name of the person speaking or being interviewed.
Larry Pylar
Brief Biography
A short biography of the Interviewee
Larry Pylar was born in Detroit in 1936 and grew up on the east side, where he continued to live after he was married until 1972. He worked in IT for General Motors and Ford Motor Company.
Interviewer's Name
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Hannah Sabal
Interview Place
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Detroit, MI
Date
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07/23/2016
Interview Length
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00:38:53
Transcriptionist
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Hannah Sabal
Transcription Date
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07/29/2016
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound
<p>HS: Hello, this is Hannah Sabal. The date is July 23<sup>rd</sup>, 2016. I am in Detroit, Michigan for the Detroit Historical Society’s Detroit 67 Oral History Project with Larry Pylar. Thank you for sitting down with me today.</p>
<p>LP: You’re welcome.</p>
<p>HS: Can you start by telling me where and when you were born?</p>
<p>LP: I was born in Detroit, 1936.</p>
<p>HS: Where did you grow up?</p>
<p>LP: Detroit. I was a Detroit resident until 1972.</p>
<p>HS: Were you in a specific neighborhood? East side? West side?</p>
<p>LP: East side Detroit. Most of the time it would be called, at that time, it’d be called Far East Side, the Harper/Chalmers area.</p>
<p>HS: What was your neighborhood like?</p>
<p>LP: It was probably, at the time, middle class. Middle class has changed over the years. What we call middle class today was not middle class back in the ‘40s and ‘50s. But it was a nice neighborhood. Almost exclusively single-family homes, exclusively white. Most of the people there worked, they were salesmen, tradesmen, skilled tool and die makers. There were very few college graduates at that time.</p>
<p>HS: What did your parents do?</p>
<p>LP: My father was an accountant with the Budd Wheel Company, and my mother was a legal secretary, personal secretary to a partner in a big Detroit law firm.</p>
<p>HS: Oh, nice. Where did you go to school?</p>
<p>LP: Went to parochial school through high school, St. Julianna’s on the east side, and then De La Salle, which was also on the east side. It’s since moved to Warren, but then it was by the Detroit City Airport. Then Wayne State.</p>
<p>HS: The parochial schools, were those integrated at all?</p>
<p>LP: No. As I said, there were no people of color, of any kind. Not only African Americans, but no Hispanics, no Asians—there were very few Asians in Detroit then at all—and in high school, no. De La Salle has the distinct honor of refusing admittance to Coleman Young when he applied for the school. They had their first black student in probably the late ‘70s. It was a college prep school, and it was not close to black neighborhoods. I’m not sure why Coleman Young wanted to go there.</p>
<p>HS: Reputation, maybe?</p>
<p>LP: Nah, that’s not what I’ve heard. I’ve since researched it, and that is true. They declined to accept him as a student.</p>
<p>HS: What was your neighborhood like?</p>
<p>LP: My neighborhood was typical, it was the Ozzie and Harriett neighborhood. Almost all the women stayed home. Whether or not they had children, most of them were still homemakers. Most of the fathers, again, were tradesmen or lower/middle level employees in some place, or skilled trades. This was the era before TV, before easy phone calls, that sort of thing. It was a typical white neighborhood in Detroit at that time. The only time you saw a black person in this neighborhood was perhaps, at that time they had—and I think this is originally a Jewish term, “sh**ne,” they called them. These were people who would go down the alleys looking for recyclable materials. In those days, mostly cloth and some paper, metals, I think, primarily. In the early ‘40s, at my grandmother’s house which was around 6 Mile and Van Dyke, I remember them coming down the alley, wagon and a horse and he actually had—this sounds like a stereotype—he had a brass trumpet. He would blow this trumpet as he went down the alley to let people know that he was going to be there if they had anything they wanted to get rid of, and he would take it. I think the occasional, when I lived in the Harper/Chalmers area, there was occasionally a man who came through sharpening knives. He had a little machine that he pulled behind him, he’d walk down the street, and he’d be ringing a bell, and people, if they had knives to sharpen, they’d bring them out. And that was to the extent of—let me tell you how white it really was. My mother as an immigrant was very conscious of prejudice, because there was a lot of prejudice above a certain level for eastern Europeans. So, my brother went to a high school called Salesian High School on Woodward, and it was an integrated high school. My mother was the kind of person who, in her entire life, I never heard her say a bad word about anybody, except my father’s second wife, but that’s a different story. But she never did. She worked downtown Detroit, and when I’d go down there, meet her for lunch, she’d make sure that she introduced me to a lot of the people, building employees, black people, who were janitors or elevator operators. I could just tell there was a friendship between them. They’d give my mother birthday presents, she’d give them birthday presents or something at Christmas, and she really, genuinely liked these people. Despite the fact that there were absolutely no black employees in the law firm. It was a rather large firm. One day, there’s a knock at the front door, and my mother opens the front door and there’s an African American boy at the front door, friend of my brother’s from Salesian who had taken the buses down to visit my brother. My mother was visibly disturbed, not because she didn’t like the friendship. She was concerned about what the neighbors would say about this black kid walking two blocks down and over, coming up on her doorstep. She didn’t say no, she wasn’t rude or anything, but I could see that this jolted her, “How did this happen? This doesn’t happen in this neighborhood?” So the racism is hard to explain sometimes because people you are sure would not say a nasty word, it’s deep inside. It’s part of that cultural pattern that you grew up with, you absorb. You don’t realize it’s there.</p>
<p>HS: Growing up in your neighborhood, did you play a lot with the neighbor kids or your siblings?</p>
<p>LP: Everything was outdoors. If it was raining, you might have someone over your house, but otherwise you got outside as quick as you can. We did things like play baseball in the street, sometimes football. Eastman didn’t have any lots to play football on, they were really bad. But some of the larger streets would have large easements, maybe ten, twelve feet wide off the street, and the city would periodically cut that down, but the field behind that they wouldn’t touch. We’d play football in those easements with the footballs going into the streets, sometimes getting flattened by cars. When they built a new home in the neighborhood, you’d very often start a building project, like take all the bricks and build a house, your own little house. Stack it up, build things, or play in the—one time a friend of mine, there was a really heavy rain, and the basement filled up with water; they hadn’t put the block down. Just a big hole. Filled up with water. So he decided he was going to make a boat, and he made it out of Celletex, this spongy, fibrous material they would use as backing on the studs, and also somewhat of an insulator. He made a boat out of it, sailed out into the middle of the excavation, and of course the boat immediately filled up with water, the Celletex got waterlogged, soaked, and sank. He had to swim back. But then you played, there were defined sports. Organized sports were relatively rare. I went to a Catholic school, so you had CYO 8<sup>th</sup> grade football; 7<sup>th</sup> and 8<sup>th</sup> graders could play football. The CYO had centers; there were several centers in Detroit, and there would have been organized sports there, but you didn’t have little league and football and baseball and basketball.</p>
<p>HS: The CYO, is that the Catholic Youth Organization?</p>
<p>LP: Yeah, Catholic Youth Organization.</p>
<p>HS: Let’s move into the ‘60s. What were you doing in the ‘60s?</p>
<p>LP: 1957 I got married. In ’58, moved to Detroit. Far east side, now I’m the last street in Detroit, Kingsville on the east side. Across the street is Harper Woods. So we’re the last street in Detroit. I was working at the time—let’s see, when we moved there I was working at General Motors, then I worked in downtown Detroit. I had just left my job in downtown Detroit and was working at Ford Motor Company in Dearborn.</p>
<p>HS: In what capacity?</p>
<p>LP: My whole life I worked in what’s now called IT. Computer stuff. But in those days, it was tremendously different. I’d been working a short time at Ford Motor, and I had gone up north with a couple of friends. Got somebody to watch all the kids, got away for the weekend. We’re driving back, and I think we were around the Flint area, and you could see this big column of smoke coming up from the south.</p>
<p>HS: We’re going to get to the riots in just a second. Before the riots though, did you notice any tensions in the city?</p>
<p>LP: For a person like myself? No. Even though just prior to this, like I say, I have worked five years in downtown Detroit. No, there weren’t a lot of tensions because I think the tensions were pretty much locked up in the black neighborhoods. And there was no reason for me to go to them, with one exception. I had one of my employees—a keypunch operator, someone who punched those punch cards. She was black, she had been in the army. And when she got married, she invited myself and a fellow I worked with to the wedding. So we said, “Sure, we’re going to go.” We went to it, it was at the Democratic Club off Davison on the west side. Anyway, we walked in, and we’re the only white people in the entire group. I had never been among that many black people in my entire life. They were great people. We were accepted. They were ordinary people. They were just like everybody else I knew except they weren’t white. With the exception of the mother of the bride, who was upset that we were there—she told her daughter, she said, one of her brothers told me, “My mother doesn’t understand why she had to invite white people to the wedding.”</p>
<p>HS: How did that make you feel, being a minority for the first time?</p>
<p>LP: It didn’t bother me at all.</p>
<p>HS: No?</p>
<p>LP: I thought I could understand what she’s feeling, you know, we aren’t part of the culture and everything else. On the other hand, I felt that most of the people that were there were part of my culture. They were there, everything but color. We enjoyed the same things, except dancing with her sister one time, her sister says, “You know, you white people really can’t dance very well.” But outside of that, I didn’t feel that there were differences between us, except I could understand the mother, though, having grown up in a much, much tougher environment would feel that way. It didn’t bother me. Why should it? Her daughter accepted me, and that was fine. We all agreed, and it was the first time my wife had been to anything like that either, and she agreed and said, “It was really nice. People were really great.” No difference between what they’re interested in, what they’re eating, what they’re drinking, and the rest of us. I lost my train of thought there. When I got on that second story I just sort of lost it. Pull up another question.</p>
<p>HS: How did you hear about the riots?</p>
<p>LP: Oh, now I can talk about the riots.</p>
<p>HS: Yes, now. Go.</p>
<p>LP: Driving back to Detroit from northern Michigan with friends, we saw a big plume of smoke, which I assumed was a factory fire. Big, but factory fire. Then, as we got closer to Detroit, the radio stations were saying that there’s a disturbance going on. The closer we got, of course, the more news there was. But initially there wasn’t news about a huge riot or anything, there was a disturbance and there’d been some looting, and some things had been set on fire. When we got home, and the ensuing days, it got more and more serious. How did it affect me? It didn’t affect me. I mean, I even went to work. I was no longer working in downtown Detroit, I was working in Dearborn. I had to drive 94 across town. It didn’t really affect us directly. Indirectly, there were a few things, and that’s where I have a couple of short stories to tell.</p>
<p>HS: Yeah, please share those stories, we’d like to hear them.</p>
<p>LP: Okay. There were no black people in our neighborhood of any kind. But I had a southern neighbor, and he was unemployed and drank a lot. Somehow he felt it was his mission to protect the neighborhood from rampaging black people. So he would sit out on his front porch with a loaded shotgun, drunk.</p>
<p>HS: Sounds about right.</p>
<p>LP: I was, the entire riots, the most concern I had during the entire riot period was that my next door neighbor might shoot me. What was second-most? Second-most was probably for the first week or so driving to work in Dearborn, driving in the ditch. It hadn’t extended that far north, but I was still concerned if there were some crazies out there who might want to get in one of those industrial buildings overlooking the freeway and go shooting into the freeway. I wasn’t paranoid, but it was a concern, and it lasted about a week or so. The most surprising thing I had in this was when I got to work, at Ford Motor. Guys are talking about the riots, right? More than a couple people said, “Oh, yeah, we went riding through there!” I said, “You went driving through there?!” “Oh, yeah.” “By yourself?” “No, no, wife and the kids. We went to see what was going on.” And they’re actually driving down the streets with burning buildings and people looting and the police and the National Guard with their kids and I’m thinking, this is insane! What are you doing there with your children? From their perspective, they probably thought—I don’t know why they thought they were safe, that it wouldn’t happen to them. I could not believe they were actually doing this. Outside of that, now, again, at that time, I did not about—later on, I became involved with FOCUS: Hope, but at that time I did not know about it. I had no real connection. I didn’t know people in the riot area. Did it bother me a lot? I don’t know why it should not have bothered me, but it really didn’t. A) It didn’t really affect me. My neighborhood, my family, my job. Secondly, for some reason, I felt a little sympathy—not sympathy, a little understanding of how this can come about. I’ve had several police friends, and knowing them, a couple of them, I’ve often thought the line between the crook and the policeman is very fine. They’re both sort of adrenaline junkies. They live on the edge. What makes one uphold the law, what makes one break it, I think that’s a very fine line because I had a friend who once in a while, he’d call me up and say, “Let’s go out and have a beer.” “Okay, where we going?” We ended up on Cass Avenue, at that time, a rough place. We’d go in these bars where everybody knew him, and they’re black-white bars. Everybody knew who he was, and he would sort of lord over the place. He was off-duty, but they knew he has a gun, he’s carrying a gun. They knew he’s a policeman because he’s in that area. I thought, this is not comfortable at all. At various times, I thought when they’re talking about the harassing, I thought, I haven’t personally experienced a whole lot, but I think I can know what that feels like. Now in subsequent years, I’ve had several experiences which sort of reinforced that. I’m the sort of person who’s lived my life in the middle. Bad things have happened, but not terrible things. Good things, but I’m not a millionaire. My whole life has been somewhat in the middle. I just got excused from a jury, I think, because of a couple of the experiences. One was getting thrown in jail for a traffic offense, going ten miles over. It’s a little bit of a story, but I posted it on Facebook and said, “Anybody wants to talk about this, my six hours as a con.” But [unintelligible] because you can see this whole scenario and what had played out then. Because it was short term, I was thrown in a room. This is the ‘70s. I get put in a room, mostly black people, most in there because some bad loud muffler or smoky car. In a room, terrible room. No door on the bathroom, single bathroom, men and women. Old beat up park benches to sit on. Walls are terrible. While we’re there, and right next door in the squad room, right next door, there’s a conference room. They bring in six hookers. The hookers are put in the conference room: leather chairs, nice carpet, nice table. We meanwhile are jammed in this dirty, other kind of room.</p>
<p>HS: When was this?</p>
<p>LP: This was in the ‘70s. It was after the ‘60s, but again, you understand how some of these things happen. I was aware that when I was working, from the ‘50s on—I worked at General Motors, there were no minority employees—no, I take that back, there were several Asians, several Asian PhDs. But they were it, that was the minority. There were no black or Hispanic. Not a whole lot of eastern Europeans either. Everybody was pretty much what you’d call wasp. Then when I worked downtown, it was much better. There was a little more diversification. But still, all management was white and you had a couple of female employees who were at the bottom. Secretaries, and like I said, I had a keypunch operator. When I left from there and went to Ford Motor, and there was a little more diversification. But again, in the ‘70s, there was still a lot less.</p>
<p>HS: Looking back on the riots, are there any other experiences aside from your very colorful neighbor that you’d like to share with us?</p>
<p>LP: Okay, well, the second weekend, my wife’s cousin got married. I guess it was somewhat fortunate—I’m not sure if it made any difference—but they had booked a hall which was just across the Detroit city line in Harper Woods. Her brother was supposed to stand up for the wedding, but he was in the Michigan National Guard and got called up. So the night of the reception, all of a sudden a jeep pulls up to the front door. He was a captain, so he was an officer. He gets out of the jeep, he’s got three armed guys with him, and they all come into the hall. It was sort of strange to see fatigues and weapons in the hall. Although there was nothing happening in these neighborhoods, the Detroit neighborhoods. Nothing at all happening. We were miles away from it. He was able to break loose for a few minutes and come on down. He spent about fifteen minutes or so with us. Then he had to go back to his patrolling duties; I guess that’s what they did, they were patrolling the streets. Okay, so what else did we have? Let me think back. As I said, I had very little direct—I didn’t know people, I didn’t have contact with any of the groups or activities that might have been there. It was mostly then just riding through the areas. Once in a while coming from work the freeway was jammed up, you’d take surface streets then. A little while later, everything had calmed down and you had just a residue of that.</p>
<p>HS: Moving past then, when you look back on the events, do you describe it as a riot, or would you call it an uprising or a rebellion, civil disturbance?</p>
<p>LP: A lot of my friends refer to it, white friends, refer to it as The Rebellion or The Uprising. Because it wasn’t organized, I have a little hesitation. I call it a riot only in the sense that I always felt it was totally disorganized. Totally disorganized. So I call it a riot for that, but some of my friends refer to it as an uprising. “We’ve had enough and we’re gonna do something about it.” Well, this turned out to be very counterproductive and destructive, but one of the results of that was the more rapid exit from Detroit.</p>
<p>HS: The white flight.</p>
<p>LP: Yeah, the white flight which I was part of in 1972.</p>
<p>HS: Why did you leave?</p>
<p>LP: I had children at parochial school. I told my wife, I said, “It’s getting more and more expensive. Our daughter is starting high school next year. Let’s see what the costs are. Let’s put them in a public school.” We raised them catholic and both of us always went to parochial school, that’s where we automatically sent the kids. So we sent them to the public school; that lasted for about six weeks. Now was there a problem with my kids getting in trouble? No. With the kids they bussed in? No. One of my kids said about the second week, she said, “I feel so sorry for those kids being bussed in.” I said, “Why?” She says, “Because they’re spending all their day on a bus! We can’t be friends with them because they’re gone. They walk out, we have no chance to socialize—” she didn’t say socialize, but— “we can’t—everything is just in school, and then they’re gone.” They come in in the morning and they’re tired when they get here because they had to get up extra early. Everybody else in the neighborhood, my kids walked to school. The biggest problem was the school itself. My kids had gone to a tracked parochial school, three tracks in every grade. Most of them were in first or second track. So when they went to public school, my oldest daughter said, one day we were talking to her, “How’s school going?” “Oh, it’s really boring.” I said, “What are you doing?” She said, “Well, I’m hall monitor four days a week in my English class.” My wife called the school and said, “Why is my daughter hall monitoring?” She says, “Well, we give an assignment out on Monday and your daughter does the assignment and everything, she’s got it all right and perfect, so we made her hall monitor.” My wife said, “This is silly! She’s getting bored in class!”</p>
<p>HS: And you’re paying for this, right?</p>
<p>LP: No, now we’re in public school.</p>
<p>HS: Oh, now we’re in public school. Okay.</p>
<p>LP: And she says, “Most parents, this is an honor for their kids to be the hall monitor.” We said, “No, no, she’s there to learn.” That’s case one. Case two, one of my sons came home one day and my wife says, “What’s your assignment?” He says, “I’ve gotta be able to write these ten words for spelling.” My wife says, “Then what?” He says, “That’s it.” For the week, he just had to learn how to spell them correctly. And she said, “Do you know what any of these mean?” He said, “No.” She said, “Weren’t you told to find out what they mean?” “No.” Call the school again. School said, “This is the curriculum. The teacher set it. If your kids happen to be able to pick this up very quickly, be happy about it.” Then, I’m trying to remember what the third event—oh, yeah! Third event: my wife went down to talk, and the school we went to was Our Lady Queen of Peace, that was the parochial school. My wife said to the principal now, she’s talking to the principal, she says, “This is a problem. My kids, they’re all bored! There’s nothing going on in class. Can’t you at least let the teacher make some additional assignments that they can do on their own? That they will have to do.” He says, “No, no, we can’t do that. We don’t do that here.” My wife said, “Well this is ridiculous.” The principal looked at her and said, “Were you this much a problem person at Our Lady Queen of Peace?” So with that, we said bite the bullet, pull my kids out of school. I had no problem with them being in public school, and there was no problem personality conflict. It was the education at that particular school at least was very, very poor. So we pulled them out, got all the credits we could from our work in the parish and got them back into—it was a job, because we had four of them to get back in the school—and get them back into parochial school. Then, a year later, I said, look, we’re either going to face these high bills and pay them and the tuition or we can get a bigger house. We had a 1,000 square-foot home, with seven people in it.</p>
<p>HS: Oh, my god.</p>
<p>LP: Well, maybe 1,100. I had finished the basement, I had finished the attic off, and extended the kitchen. That might have been 1,100 square feet total. I said, we can do that, so we checked around. Utica community schools had a very good reputation at the time, and we found that if we moved out far enough, houses got cheap enough that we actually, with a little struggle, could afford. We decided, we made the move out there.</p>
<p>HS: How have you seen the city change in the past fifty years?</p>
<p>LP: It’s changed a lot. Of course, downhill for many years, many years. Quite frankly, I thought that mayor Coleman Young was xenophobic when he was mayor. In 1968, there was a referendum in the city to take Belle Isle and put it in the park system, the—what is Stony Creek and all the rest of them?</p>
<p>HS: Metro parks.</p>
<p>LP: Metro park system, and it got turned down. And one of the primary reasons it got turned down was Coleman Young was dead-set against it. Nobody was going to take their park away, nobody. Well, ensuing years, lack of money and everything else, the park went downhill. Downhill terribly. I always hated it because I grew up on the island. I hated that. I blamed him for that. I thought he just had this xenophobic view of race relations in the city. On the other hand, racism was a deep part of the consciousness of the white population. I mean, I don’t think he had to be xenophobic to get people to move out. And in Michigan, it was easy to move. The land’s flat, you can extend utilities, go out there. It’s not like some cities where there are mountains and hills and it’s very expensive. It’s cheap to move out. I can remember when my uncle bought a house in Detroit, right after World War II, and it was all farms, and we’re talking south of 7 Mile Road, on the east side. All farms. And they just leveled the land, put in all the streets, plotted it, put the houses on. Anyway, it has gone downhill, and we try to keep up with it. I’m in Detroit a lot, I have friends in Detroit. Almost all white friends, interestingly. I still, to this day, do not have many black friends. I had a very good friend who was black. He grew up in the city of Detroit, then went out. He worked for IBM. I met him on one of the companies, jobs, I went to in the ‘70s. He lived in Shelby Township where I lived, and he was one of three black families in all thirty-five square miles of Shelby. He was just a great guy, but my wife used to be concerned. He had a motorcycle, was a big guy, tough-looking guy. He had a purple Yamaha 1200cc motorcycle, and he’d come roaring up our driveway, and my daughters, little blonde girls, would go, “Ray! Take us for a ride! Take us for a ride!” One at a time, they’d hop behind him.</p>
<p>HS: And your wife’s like, “Uh, no?”</p>
<p>LP: No, no, that was fine, she let them do it. She was great with this guy, his whole family, we were great friends. But she, again, deep down, “What are the neighbors, what are they gonna—?” And again, she wasn’t afraid of what they would say, she was afraid of how she would handle it, because she had no problem. I mean, she wasn’t going to say, no, this is wrong. She just didn’t know what she would do if they did. Outside of him and his family, and through things like FOCUS: Hope I’ve met a few people, but over the years I’ve had very, very few black friends. In the course of that time, in our family, there have been what they used to call interracial marriages. Let me tell you this story from the ‘60s, because I think this fits. Friend of mine got married a little later than the rest of us, in the late 20s, and he married a Ukrainian girl. They lived on the east side of Detroit, but the family originally lived in Hamtramck. She had come from the Ukraine as a child after World War II. And he married a Ukrainian girl, we thought it was a great wedding. A real ethnic wedding, we had never seen it. This whole idea, the ritual of it, and what they did before and after was just fantastic. Well, years later, this was maybe four or five years ago, this couple’s sitting around our kitchen table, we’re talking about, “Hey, remember the days when…” and my friend said, “You know, we almost didn’t get married.” I said, “Didn’t get married? Why?” He says, “His parents were dead-set against our getting married.” She said, “As a matter of fact, when we early started dating, my parents sent me to live with an aunt in New York for a year, hoping to break it up.” She said, “We finally got married when I told my mother and dad, I said, ‘Look, if you’re going to continue doing this, we’re just going to go to a JP, be married by a Justice of the Peace. There’ll be no big church wedding and nothing else,’ and they relented.” Now as his friends, we never saw this. He came from an Italian family, she’s Ukrainian. She said, “To tell you how serious it was that I was not marrying a Ukrainian—this is in the ‘60s—three years later my sister married a black man, and nobody said a word. I had already done all the damage by marrying someone who was not Ukrainian.” Since then, the family doesn’t have a whole lot, but there are some, just the mix. Now the family includes people from India, from the Philippines, well, the black person is actually an American and his family has been here a lot longer than mine has. It’s interesting to talk about immigrants, I used to work with some Japanese girls. Turns out their family came over in 1870. My family came over in 1911.</p>
<p>HS: They just took different paths.</p>
<p>LP: A lot longer! But there was a pattern of discrimination for them. World War II, when they interned the Japanese. You may not know this, there was a plan to intern Japanese, Italians, and Germans.</p>
<p>HS: I actually did know that.</p>
<p>LP: The Japanese were more easily interned because there were fewer numbers of them, almost all of them in California, very easily done. When congress, they looked at funding of picking up the Italians and Germans, they said, politically this is a nightmare. They had a lot of power, the Japanese had no power. And it’s an incredibly huge job, to just screen everybody, decide where they’re going to be interned, and the Japanese didn’t bother screening them; they just interned the whole population. They abandoned that. It always bothered me as a history major, why in the world did they allow all these Germans and Italians, they never did anything, and these few Japanese were the furthest away from Japan—they were twice the distance that the Europeans were—why did they let it go? I did a little research.</p>
<p>HS: Do you think it also had something to do with the fact that Japanese are more easily recognizable than Germans and Italians?</p>
<p>LP: That’s true. Back in the ‘70s, when Japanese were sending, automakers were sending people to Detroit to look at production methods and how we did things, one of the girls I worked with, she said, “Boy, I used to hate it when”—because all the wives group together, they go shopping and everything. She said, “I’d be walking down the street, and I would see these Asians, Japanese, coming down.” She said, “The first thing I do is cross the street and get away because invariably they would see me and go, ‘Somebody we can talk to!’” And she said, “I don’t speak Japanese!” She said, “I’d cross the street and get away from them so I wouldn’t have to go through all this.”</p>
<p>HS: Looking toward the future, where do you see the city going?</p>
<p>LP: Okay, every Thanksgiving—I’ve done this for eight or nine years, my friends have done it for like twelve or thirteen—every Thanksgiving, we meet somewhere, roughly called the Core Area in Detroit, and spend nine o’clock on the morning of thanksgiving until midnight walking through a neighborhood. We’d walk through these neighborhoods. We have started at Belle Isle through the city, downtown to Wayne state, we’ve gone through Corktown, Greek town, all the communities looking at the changes. There’s a lot of them, but my feeling is that the one thing that it needs is it still needs to come up with a viable middle class. Right now you’ve got the people living along Woodward and that, and until you start getting this group of middle class people, they’re going to bring in supermarkets and all the little retail shops that you need, not much is going to happen. You can’t do it all with hut housing or heavily subsidized, because these people do not have extra money to shop. You need people who have a little disposable income. I think that’s coming. I think a big start of it is younger people—we know of several young people, like probably around your age, late 20s, early 30s, who have moved downtown. But they’ve got jobs, they can afford it, they’ve got a nice apartment that looks up. Meanwhile, if you’re out further, and we’re interested, we’d go to see the tree farm that’s out there, and the local farmers. I don’t slow roll, I’m not that steady on a bike anymore, but I have a number of friends who are at the Slow Roll group. There are several bicycling groups in the city now and come down through. Actually I think it’s getting better because it really couldn’t get any worse. It couldn’t get any worse. Detroit actually did bottom. When I was up here, we’re talking in the ‘50s, Detroit had 2 million people. Now it’s 700,000. A lot of people don’t want to understand people. Another little story. A gal I worked with, her husband was teaching in a parochial school, not a catholic, I’ll just say that, but a parochial school. And he was tired of the political infighting in this church, so he decided he had to get out. He had a Master’s degree in mathematics from the University of Michigan. He had like ten years’ teaching experience with a Master’s, so he threw his resumes all out. He kept getting them returned saying, “We’d love to have you on our staff, but we’d have to pay you at the top pay grade, and we just can’t do that.” He got three positive responses, all from the city of Detroit. He finally took one of them, Martin Luther King High School. Tough area. Van Dyke and Harper area, tough area. We thought, here’s a guy, he’s an army brat, he’s taught in these parochial environments all his life, he’s going to get eaten alive down there. The next year when I brought up the subject to his wife, I said, “How’s he doing at that school?” And she said, “He loves it.” And I said, “Really?” She says, “A lot of students couldn’t care less, but he found enough students and enough parents who are interested in their students to make the teaching job worthwhile.” We expected him not even to last a year, it turned out, last I heard, he had been there four or five years, then I lost touch with him. It had been a good experience for him. It’s a matter of getting to know people and knowing what you want, and going out and not being afraid.</p>
<p>HS: All right, is there anything else you wanted to share today?</p>
<p>LP: Let’s see, this has nothing to do with Detroit, but you speak Spanish? I have a little story that you might find interesting.</p>
<p>HS: All right, I’m just going to shut this off.</p>
Original Format
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audio
Duration
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38min 53sec
Interviewer
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Hannah Sabal
Interviewee
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Larry Pylar
Location
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Detroit, MI
Video
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<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/axy_NbF3xMw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Larry Pylar, July 23rd, 2016
Description
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In this interview, Pylar describes his upbringing in a white neighborhood on the east side of Detroit and what he witnessed during the unrest of 1967. He also provides a perspective of Detroit residents who were not directly affected by the unrest and his thoughts on the state of the city.
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
Date
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08/02/2016
Rights
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Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Format
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audio/WAV
Language
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en-US
Type
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Oral History
1967 riot—Detroit—Michigan
Detroit Community Members
FOCUS: Hope
General Motors
Mayor Coleman Young
Michigan National Guard
-
https://detroit1967.detroithistorical.org/files/original/2eaabc760d9f8f22bc5e383dbb0e14ea.jpg
78e7d661394c1ad7c3aefe1e47fe829b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Detroit 67: Looking Back to Move Forward
Subject
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Stories gathered to commemorate the summer of 1967 in Detroit.
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
Rights
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Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Language
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en-us
Date
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10/20/2019
Oral History
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Narrator/Interviewee's Name
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Lucille Watts
Brief Biography
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Lucille Watts was born in Virginia in 1920, and moved to Detroit when she was 32. She lived at Arden Park & Brush in an all-white neighborhood. She practiced as one of few women attorneys, primarily in real estate, and she and her husband, James Watts, were connected to Detroit politics both in labor and later during the Coleman Young administration.
Interviewer's Name
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Giancarlo Stefanutti and Hannah Sabal
Interview Place
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Detroit, MI
Date
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06/21/2016
Interview Length
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00:17:38
Transcriptionist
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Emma Maniere
Transcription Date
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07/12/2016
Transcription
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<p>GS: Hello. This is Giancarlo Stefanutti and Hannah Sabal. Today is June 21, 2016. We are here in Detroit, Michigan. Thank you for sitting down with us today.</p>
<p>Could you first start by telling us your name?</p>
<p>LW: My name is Lucille Watts.</p>
<p>GS: Okay. Where and when were your born?</p>
<p>LW: I was born in Homeville, Virginia in 1920.</p>
<p>GS: Awesome. What was your childhood like?</p>
<p>LW: My childhood? Oh it was a happy childhood. When I was small I lived in with my grandparents. Of course Virginia at that time was segregated. No different I guess [laughter]. It’s segregated in Detroit, so, not a big deal [laughter].</p>
<p>GS: What did your parents do?</p>
<p>LW: My parents?</p>
<p>GS: Mm-hmm.</p>
<p>LW: My father died before I could remember. But they were people who were in farming. My mother moved to Ohio. I went to Ohio, I guess, when I was very small and then I went back to Virginia because my mother married again and my grandparents did not think that was such a good idea for me [laughter].</p>
<p>GS: Gotcha, gotcha. So then when did you move to Detroit?</p>
<p>LW: I came to Detroit in 1952.</p>
<p>GS: Oh wow, okay. What were the reasons of coming to Detroit?</p>
<p>LW: Nothing special. I had a friend here, and she seemed to have been reasonably happy [laughter]. I decided that this was the place that I wanted to be.</p>
<p>GS: Okay. So when you moved into Detroit in the 50’s, what were your reactions to the city? What were your opinions of the city at the time?</p>
<p>LW: I beg your pardon?</p>
<p>GS: What were your opinions of Detroit when you first moved there?</p>
<p>LW: Well it was firmly segregated, which I was surprised because I had come here from Ohio, and it wasn’t quite as segregated as Detroit. But I adjusted to the situation.</p>
<p>GS: And where in Detroit did you live?</p>
<p>LW: I lived in several places, but most of the time I lived in Arden Park & Brush.</p>
<p>GS: Okay. And did you have a job at that time?</p>
<p>LW: Yeah, I was in the fashion field. I had been trained in modeling and fashion.</p>
<p>GS: Oh, very nice. And how was your job?</p>
<p>LW: It worked out fairly well for me, but it wasn’t very challenging.</p>
<p>GS: It wasn’t? [Laughter.]</p>
<p>LW: [Laughter.] So I went back to school.</p>
<p>GS: Oh, okay, and where’d you go to school?</p>
<p>LW: I went to the University of Detroit to get enough credits to go to law school.</p>
<p>GS: Wow. Very impressive. So you went there. After school, where did you go? What did you do?</p>
<p>LW: Well, after I got out of law school I practiced law.</p>
<p>GS: Right. Right, yes. [Laughter.]</p>
<p>LW: Until I was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis and I realized that the kind of practice I was in, I was not going to be able to do it too well because I was working out of Wayne County Circuit Court and Oakland County Circuit Court and there was way too much for somebody who had arthritis. So I decided to run for office.</p>
<p>HS: Which area of law did you specialize in?</p>
<p>LW: Mostly real estate. Well I did a lot of domestic relations.</p>
<p>GS: This is kind of backtracking a little bit. But when you came to Detroit, you said it was a fairly segregated area compared to Ohio. I’m just wondering what in Detroit was more segregated than in your experience in Ohio?</p>
<p>LW: Well when I came here, black people were not really going to downtown restaurants and things like that, and I had been accustomed to doing that kind of thing where I had lived. As I say, I adjusted, let me put it that way.</p>
<p>GS: Okay, so moving into the 1960’s, so the early 60’s–could you sense a feeling of tension in Detroit?</p>
<p>LW: No.</p>
<p>GS: No?</p>
<p>LW: No.</p>
<p>GS: Okay.</p>
<p>LW: Actually, I was the most surprised person in the world.</p>
<p>HS: Really?</p>
<p>GS: Really?</p>
<p>LW: I was downtown meeting with a client in a downtown hotel, I don’t remember now exactly which one it was. But in any case it was a Sunday evening. And I came out and saw all these people running around, smoke. I was really frightened, I couldn’t imagine what was going on. I lived at Seven Mile and Birchcrest at that time, which was pretty far out of the ghetto. I went home, and my husband was away on business, so I went home and locked the door [laughter], and stayed home until–I don’t know how many days, maybe it was a day or two. I don’t remember. I had a motion scheduled for two o’clock in the afternoon in the Flint Circuit Court. I got up and got in the car and went toward Flint, and I saw the National Guard coming in, which also surprised me. [Laughter.] And I went to the Court in Flint, and they told me that they had adjourned my motion because they heard about all that’s going on in Detroit and they was sure that I wasn’t coming. [Laughter.]</p>
<p>HS: Wow.</p>
<p>GS: Wow.</p>
<p>HS: So the first that you heard of the riots was when you came out of the hotel after meeting with your co-workers?</p>
<p>LW: Yeah. I didn’t know and I didn’t even understand what was going on. I was frightened and I didn’t really understand anything about what was going on.</p>
<p>HS: I’m sorry, go ahead.</p>
<p>LW: Go ahead.</p>
<p>HS: At the time of the riots, you were still practicing law, you had gone into office yet?</p>
<p>LW: My office was in the Great Lakes building which was on Woodward and–what is that?– Pingree The Great Lakes Building took up a block on Woodward.</p>
<p>HS: So you were still practicing then?</p>
<p>LW: Yeah. Because I represented Great Lakes Land and Investment Company, Great Lakes Mutual Insurance Company. I was not practicing law for fun, I was practicing for a living.</p>
<p>HS: Mm-hmm.</p>
<p>LW: [Laughter.]</p>
<p>HS: Yeah.</p>
<p>LW: So when I came back, I came back home because the house I lived in at that time was in a white neighborhood and I wasn’t really afraid, but I was home alone, because like I said my husband was away on business. I stayed there until the President of Great Lakes called me and said one of our agents–Great Lakes insurance agents–had been picked up by the police, and that I should go and see about him. So I went–he was at Fort and Green –that was the police station. I was never a criminal lawyer, but it was my job for the company, so I had to go see about him. And when I got to Fort and Green, National Guard was in front of the building with their bayonets across the walkway. I just parked my car at the head of the walkway, got out and walked and went. I went up to the walkway, and they just open up. [Laughter.] And I went on it and took care of my job and got my client out of jail. [Laughter.]</p>
<p>GS: Oh wow.</p>
<p>HS: That’s awesome.</p>
<p>LW: Then, I realized that I had an obligation to do something more than stay home with my head covered up. [Laughter.] So basically I joined with other black lawyers in the community to try to get folks out of jail because they were picking up black men in the street for reasons and no reasons.</p>
<p>HS: For being black men.</p>
<p>LW: They picked up so many of them that they would them in pens down in Belle Isle like cattle. We worked to get them out. And that was about my experience with the riots.</p>
<p>HS: Did you have a lot of clientele after the riots?</p>
<p>LW: Huh?</p>
<p>HS: Did you have a lot of clientele after the riots?</p>
<p>LW: It had nothing to do with the riots. My clientele was not that kind.</p>
<p>I’d like to show you a picture.</p>
<p>GS: Great.</p>
<p>HS: Oh, yes.</p>
<p>LW: Of the founders of Great Lakes Insurance Company because I happen to have things fairly well together because somebody’s working on a book about me.</p>
<p>GS: Uhhm.</p>
<p>HS: So you said that you got together with other black women in the community to try to help the black men out of–</p>
<p>LW: Black, black lawyers</p>
<p>HS: Black lawyers.</p>
<p>LW: Yeah. It wasn’t that many women because when I went to law school, there wasn’t a whole lot of women going to law school. In fact, there were only two at DCL in the daytime when I was there. One of them washed out. [Laughter.]</p>
<p>HS: Ooh. So you were the only one who made it through?</p>
<p>GS: When you were doing this, how were the police reacting to you?</p>
<p>LW: Hmm?</p>
<p>GS: How were the police reacting to you and the other lawyers trying to help out the black men that were being arrested?</p>
<p>LW: I never had any problem with police. But women usually don’t I guess. [Laughter.]</p>
<p>GS: And how did your neighborhood react during the Riot? How were they feeling?</p>
<p>LW: Well the neighborhood where I lived, they were all white anyway. So nobody was concerned. We was so far–at Seven Mile and Birchcrest–we were way out of the area where there was anything going on. If I hadn’t had to go downtown I wouldn’t have known anything was going on.</p>
<p>GS: Oh, I see.</p>
<p>HS: You said your husband was out of town on business.</p>
<p>LW: Yes.</p>
<p>HS: Did he contact you? Did he hear about the riots when he was out of town?</p>
<p>LW: I don’t remember him being that concerned. No.</p>
<p>HS: For the same reason that you were so far out of it anyway?</p>
<p>LW: Yeah. I’m sure he called, but I don’t remember anything special about it. Because he was an international rep for IUE on Walter Reuther’s staff.</p>
<p>GS: So thinking post-riot, could you sense a change in Detroit after the riot?</p>
<p>LW: A lot of things changed. But most of them didn’t affect me in most ways that I can think of. And there were a lot of promises made and a lot of committees formed, and most of it didn’t happen, as you already know.</p>
<p>GS: Yeah.</p>
<p>HS: Do you think racial tensions got worse after the riot?</p>
<p>LW: No, I don’t think so. But I think you’re dealing with a perspective. I guess I’m a person who kind of lives my life without getting too far into other people’s business. [Laughter.]</p>
<p>HS: That’s a great way to live life [laughter].</p>
<p>GS: It is. It is. [Laughter.]</p>
<p>LW: I always say I don’t want to know your business unless I’ve got you on the clock [laughter].</p>
<p>GS: [Laughter.]</p>
<p>HS: Great.</p>
<p>GS: That’s good. So we’ve interviewed a lot of people and they’ve had a lot of different terms for the unrest: you know, some people call it a “Riot,” but other people call it “Rebellion” or “Unrest” or “Uprising.” Do you have a term for it that you would call it, or would you just call it a riot?</p>
<p>LW: I go along with the idea of an uprising. There’s always been a lot of tension I guess with the police and the people on the street. And that hasn’t changed all that much. It’s still a problem. And maybe not as much in Detroit as some other places. And a lot of the reason for that is Coleman Young, I think. Coleman Young made a big change because it was a lot of tension with the police before he took office.</p>
<p>HS: Mm-hhmm.</p>
<p>GS: Mmm.</p>
<p>LW: And Coleman was very close to my husband at that time, and the reason I say “at that time” is because after he died I married someone else. But I still carry the name. His name was James Watts. And that name may come up because he was the DPW under Coleman Young.</p>
<p>HS: I think I may have come across his name–I think I’ve come across his name and someone else’s.</p>
<p>GS: Wow.</p>
<p>LW: He took a leave of absence from the UAW and went to work for Coleman when Coleman got elected.</p>
<p>HS: Mmm.</p>
<p>GS: M-hm. So just kind of looking at Detroit now, what are your opinions of Detroit at present day? Do you think a lot has changed?</p>
<p>LW: I think Detroit has an unfortunate situation going into the bankruptcy. We were lucky to get the kind of turnaround team that we got. Unfortunately, this is not going to work too well unless they can get the education system under control. I don’t think we can do that unless we can get it from Lansing, can’t get it local, because Lansing has taken over and has been in charge for too long. And unless you have a good education system, you’re not going to be able to attract the kind of people you need, because those kind of people have children going to school.</p>
<p>GS: Mm-hmm.</p>
<p>LW: [Laughter.]</p>
<p>HS: Aside from education, are there any other factors that you think the city needs to work on to return to how it used to be?</p>
<p>LW: Well, I suppose housing, but we’re not in desperate need of housing I don’t think. I think we’re in desperate need of education reform. That’s the way I’m seeing it.</p>
<p>HS: Mm-hmm.</p>
<p>GS: Do you have anything else you would like to add, or any points you’d like to make?</p>
<p>LW: Not particularly.</p>
<p>HS: Okay.</p>
<p>GS: Alright. Well thank you so much for sitting down with us today.</p>
<p>HS: Yes, thanks for inviting us here. We greatly appreciate it.</p>
<p>LW: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.</p>
<p>HS: Okay.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>[TIME STAMP END OF INTERVIEW 17:38]</p>
People
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Young, Colman
Original Format
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audio
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17min 38sec
Interviewer
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Giancarlo Stefanutti
Hannah Sabal
Interviewee
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Lucille Watts
Location
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Detroit, MI
Video
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<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/I8Mm5EdZRQs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>
Dublin Core
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Title
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Lucille Watts, June 21st, 2016
Description
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Watts details her involvement with the events of July 1967 namely, her action – along with other black lawyers – in freeing black men who were arrested, sometimes with reason, sometimes arbitrarily. She was at first very confused and surprised by the outbreak of what she terms the “Uprising” of July 1967. She lived in an all-white neighborhood removed from danger, and was well-connected to Detroit Union and later more mainstream politics.
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
Date
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07/15/2016
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Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
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audio/WAV
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en-US
Type
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Oral History
1967 riot—Detroit—Michigan
Community Activists
Detroit Police Department
Mayor Coleman Young
-
https://detroit1967.detroithistorical.org/files/original/4d92baa33bd0f64e957f1938ae38500c.JPG
7d06a85357ffe4ec2e9af964dae74fe3
Dublin Core
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Title
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Detroit 67: Looking Back to Move Forward
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Stories gathered to commemorate the summer of 1967 in Detroit.
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
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Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
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en-us
Date
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10/20/2019
Oral History
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Narrator/Interviewee's Name
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Michael Krotche
Brief Biography
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Michael Krotche was born in Detroit in 1941 and grew up in a Polish community in Hamtramck. In 1967, he was working for the Detroit Police Department as a beat officer. After retiring from the police force, he worked as a personal driver. He now lives with his wife in Sterling Heights.
Interviewer's Name
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William Winkel
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Sterling Heights
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06/15/2016
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00:43:06
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Hannah Sabal
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06/17/2016
Transcription
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<p>WW: Hello, my name is William Winkel. Today is June 15, 2016. We are in Sterling Heights, MI. This is an interview for the Detroit Historical Society’s Detroit 67 Oral History Project and I am sitting down with Michael Krotche. Thank you for sitting down with me today.</p>
<p>MK: You’re welcome.</p>
<p>WW: Can you first tell me where and when you were born?</p>
<p>MK: 1941.</p>
<p>WW: 1941? And you grew up in Detroit?</p>
<p>MK: I grew up right on the border of Hamtramck and Detroit.</p>
<p>WW: What was your neighborhood like?</p>
<p>MK: Polish. Very Polish. I went to a great school that taught Polish, masses were in Polish—well, I say mass, sermons were in Polish, at that time it was still Latin mass. Very, very ethnic, very stable, everybody knew everybody. Just a great neighborhood.</p>
<p>WW: What did your parents do for a living?</p>
<p>MK: Dad worked at Plymouth automotive plant. My mother had a myriad of jobs. She worked at some factories, she worked at the Fisher building doing maintenance. We weren’t poor, but we certainly weren’t affluent. Both my parents worked to put us through parochial schools.</p>
<p>WW: What school did you go to?</p>
<p>MK: I went to Our Lady Queen of Apostles for grade school, then I went to Catholic Central for high school.</p>
<p>WW: What year did you graduate high school?</p>
<p>MK: ’59.</p>
<p>WW: ’59? What was it like growing up in the city? Did you stay in your neighborhood or did you venture out?</p>
<p>MK: Yeah, yeah, very much in the neighborhood atmosphere. I can’t say, other than the fact that—I started caddying when I was eleven years old—</p>
<p>WW: You started what-ing?</p>
<p>MK: Caddying, at the Detroit Golf Club. So I started caddying at eleven, and the fact that I went to Catholic Central, which was like a new neighborhood for me, it was Outer Drive and Hubbell. So I wasn’t very familiar with it, but we were pretty much neighborhood oriented, and that was just the times I guess.</p>
<p>WW: Throughout the 1940s and ‘50s, did your neighborhood become integrated or did it stay—</p>
<p>MK: No, it was an ethnic, Polish neighborhood. Most of the people there spoke Polish. Not in their daily lives, but they certainly were capable of it. Like I said, the parish was Polish. The schools were Polish. I wasn’t a Pole! In fact, my mother was Irish, but my father was born in Austria of Polish descent, but I certainly wasn’t being considered Polish.</p>
<p>WW: Are there any experiences you’d like to share from growing up in that neighborhood?</p>
<p>MK: It was just a great neighborhood. We had a lot of kids, we did things together. Probably my first really leaving of the neighborhood was when I went to high school. Ten of us took the test at Catholic Central—I didn’t want to go there, but my buddies did—and two of us made it. And I ended up going out there, and it was probably one of the best things I ever done. But I can’t say I had a lot of really outside exposure until I went to college. I went to Wayne out of high school for basically two years, and in the middle of my sophomore year, my dad died. I was nineteen, I was the oldest of four siblings, I had to go to work. So I quit in my sophomore year and I joined the police department as a cadet and I was in an administrative position for two years until 1963 when I turned 21 and I became a sworn officer.</p>
<p>WW: When you went to Wayne State, did you move down there or did you stay in your neighborhood?</p>
<p>MK: No, I lived at home but I drove myself to school every day. I was selected to play freshman basketball. That was probably my first exposure to African Americans. Cause half the team was white, half the team was black. The coach was black. So that was probably my real association because like I said, the neighborhood that I grew up in was white and Polish. It was a very ethnic neighborhood.</p>
<p>WW: What did you study when you went to Wayne?</p>
<p>MK: Early on, it was just general studies. I had intentions of becoming a cop, even though I was kind of forced into joining the department earlier than I had planned to, because of my dad’s death, but I had always envisioned myself as being a policeman. Always what I wanted to do.</p>
<p>HS [Hannah Sabal]: So would it have been a degree in criminal justice?</p>
<p>MK: They didn’t have a criminal justice program at the time. I went into the general studies with the idea that at some point in time, probably in my second year, I would start looking for a major to declare, but it would be something in the law end of it. In the back of my mind, there were times I thought about being a lawyer, but that didn’t really turn me on.</p>
<p>WW: And what year again did you join the police department?</p>
<p>MK: ’61. February of ’61.</p>
<p>WW: What precinct were you placed into after you joined?</p>
<p>MK: When I joined the police department as a sworn officer, it was February of ’63.</p>
<p>WW: Okay.</p>
<p>MK: And I went to the 7<sup>th</sup> Precinct, which was Mack and Gratiot. I was there for a year, and one of the precincts had a ticket strike of the officers, and as a disciplinary process, they transferred a bunch of them out and a bunch of officers that were in my particular class, academy class, had just completed their probation so they went out and said, “okay, we’re going to replace these guys with younger officers,” and I got transferred without any say-so, just got a phone call saying, “You’re going.” I was there from ’64 to 1970.</p>
<p>WW: At that time the Detroit police department was all white, correct?</p>
<p>MK: Well it wasn’t all white, we probably had—on my particular shift—out of probably fifty officers, we probably had four or five that were black.</p>
<p>WW: Okay.</p>
<p>MK: And there was nothing any different about them than any of the white guys. I mean, everybody got along. Nobody thought of them as black and nobody thought of us as white. I mean, we were all cops.</p>
<p>WW: Was that just the mode in your particular precinct or do you think that that was city-wide?</p>
<p>MK: I can’t speak for other precincts. You know, I can only speak to the precinct I was in. We had probably out of maybe—and again, I’m guessing—150 total officers in that precinct, we probably had ten that were black. There weren’t any problems. Everybody got along. They were all integrated crews: blacks work with whites, whites work with blacks. There weren’t any problems.</p>
<p>WW: For being a police officer in the 1960s, did you notice any tension growing in the city?</p>
<p>MK: Yeah. I think in our precinct maybe a little more than others, because we had a group—basically they were the Black Panthers, is what they were. They were over on Kercheval right near McClellan in a storefront. The year before the ’67 riots, they had created a little turmoil and it resulted in us—not us, but in the department bringing in extra resources. It was kind of tense. It was the prelude to the following year. And that particular group had some people that were known as Black Panthers, and at the very least had an allegiance to the Black Panther movement at that time. And they did some things to try to stir up the pot. There were a couple situations where they got involved in arrests, or they weren’t a part of it, but they intervened. But we had some broken windows, we had some stuff that lasted a couple days. It was kind of a prelude. I certainly never saw ’67 coming.</p>
<p>WW: You didn’t?</p>
<p>MK: No. I mean there were issues—obviously there were issues—but I don’t think, I think if you talk to most of the guys at that time, the vast majority would say they didn’t see it coming. I mean, there were some incriminations, you had some people that were obviously stir up the problems from both sides, but it wasn’t something that I would have forecast.</p>
<p>WW: Where were you living in 1967?</p>
<p>MK: In the area of 8 mile and Gratiot.</p>
<p>WW: On the Detroit side?</p>
<p>MK: Yeah, on the Detroit side. In fact, the very first block in the city limits.</p>
<p>WW: Were you on duty that Saturday night, Sunday morning?</p>
<p>MK: I sure was.</p>
<p>WW: Can you speak about that?</p>
<p>MK: [speaking at the same time] I was working midnights. I had requested a couple hours of comp time because my mother was going to have a little family get-together at my mother’s house. And my mother lived right on the border of Hamtramck and Detroit, where I grew up. About 5 to 6 that morning, we were driving into the precinct lot, and the dispatcher came on and said, “There was a little incident on the west side.” And that was all that was said. Nothing else. “Just a little incident on the west side.” So I went in and I said to the lieutenant, “What do you think?” in light of what we had just heard. He said, “If it were any big deal, we would’ve heard about it by now. Get outta here.” I said, “Okay,” and I left. I went home, I got my wife, got my kids, and I went to my mother’s. I was working midnights, so by the time that we got there, it was roughly ten o’clock probably, by the time we fed the kids. And my sister’s bedroom faced to the west, so that’s where I went to sleep. I went to sleep about ten o’clock, and about twelve-thirty, one o’clock my wife came upstairs and she said, “The station’s on the line.” And I said, “The station?” And she said, “Yeah!” So I get up out of bed and as I did I looked out the window and I could see big rolls of black smoke to the west. And I thought, there must be a hell of a fire somewhere. That’s probably why they’re calling. So I went downstairs, and I answered the phone, and the lieutenant’s on the phone, and the lieutenant says, “How fast can you get here?” I said, “What the hell’s going on?” He said, “We’ve got a big problem right now.” He said, “We need you to get in here as soon as you can.” I said, “Okay.” She took me home, dropped me off, I changed, got my uniform on, I went to work, and I got home the next day at three o’clock. So I was gone roughly twenty-four hours. And that was my introduction to it, like I said, we had no idea there was anything going on! Other than this thing coming on saying there was a little incident on the west side.</p>
<p>WW: Throughout that first day and into the second day, did the police department feel like they could control what was going on?</p>
<p>MK: Yeah, I think they did, but it was starting to escalate. On the east side, particularly, where I was. We started getting looting, little bit of burning, more looting of stores and so forth. There was a liquor store that I think was at Mack and—I think it was Bewick. The State of Michigan liquor store. That thing got cleaned out in no time flat. I mean, they went through the doors in, man, no time flat. It’s funny because I watched Baltimore and I thought, man there’s a repetition, same thing that we saw. We had some shooting, there was some sniper fire. Like I said, there was some burning but we didn’t have a lot of fires, it was more looting than everything else. By Monday it had really escalated. Monday, it took off. I think by the time I left on Monday, it had to be three o’clock, three-thirty, we knew we had our hands full. And we knew that we were losing it.</p>
<p>WW: Given that sense, was it a relief when the National Guard came in?</p>
<p>MK: Yeah, no doubt. No doubt. They had some things—if nothing else, a show of force that we couldn’t exude. I mean they brought in certain vehicles and weaponry—just the sight of it had to be a deterrent in some respects.</p>
<p>WW: Was it the same feeling when the federal troops moved in? The 101<sup>st</sup> and the 82<sup>nd</sup>?</p>
<p>MK: Probably, at that point in time, I think we started to feel like we were getting a little bit of a handle on it, but yeah, without a doubt. I mean when you see army, when you see a tank driving up and down the street, yeah, it gets your attention. They had a command post set up at Southeastern High School. They had a fifty-caliber mounted on the, kind of a round-a-bout, on the lawn of the school. That got your attention. You see that big gun out there, you knew that people weren’t playing games anymore. But yeah, the Guard was probably the first big thing because we started to feel like we were getting some support. When the army came in, that was—I think once the army came in, things started to calm down real fast, whether it was because those that were involved in the damaging and the looting and the rest of it, just [16:04??] but now they’re serious. Now maybe we better pull our lines a little bit, but I’d say start of Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, it was probably Wednesday before we started to get the feeling that maybe we’re starting to get a grip on this. More so on the west than on the east side, where I was at. The west side had a lot more burning, a lot more fires, we may have had more shooting. We had a sniper that somehow that got into an old abandoned show across from the 5<sup>th</sup> precinct, and he took some shots at the precinct. And there were some other sniper instances. We had one sniper from Kercheval and St. Jean. You knew he was a sniper because you could see the tracers coming in. We knew we were under fire. He was shooting tracers at us. It was a strange time because you were scared to death, I’m sure most of us were, you didn’t know if you turned the next block if someone would take a shot at you. People were running around carrying stuff that you know is stolen. But at the same time you could go after some of them, but you knew if you did, you’d be sticking your neck out. There could be a whole lot more waiting for you. So some of it was allowed to slide for the first couple days. But the liquor store, they hit that. It was a State of Michigan liquor store, and it got cleaned in no time flat. There was a market, they cleaned that out, and that one they burned. They burned it and it was robbed. Over on Willowbridge and Mack.</p>
<p>WW: After the federal troops moved in and the disturbances quieted down, was there a sense of relief or anger? How did the police department react?</p>
<p>MK: You know, I can’t speak for the department. I can only speak for myself. It was a feeling of frustration, in some respects, because we had seen the city terribly damaged. We were in the national—probably international—headlines. It was never going to be the same. 12<sup>th</sup> Street was never going to be the same. The east side was never going to be the same. Just the attitude in the city was never going to be the same. One of the godsends was the Tigers. That World Series in ’68 was a godsend because it created a kind of unified approach to something that everybody became a part of. That had a big, big impact on maybe lessening what could have been some really bad feeling after the fact. There was a sense of relief after it finally subsided, but there was also a sense of depression because we had seen so much done, so much damage. 12<sup>th</sup> Street was basically eradicated. A lot of people lost homes that shouldn’t have lost homes. Businesses that shouldn’t’ve closed. White and black. It didn’t matter. We knew then that it was never going to be the same. It was never going to be the same.</p>
<p>WW: You spoke about how your first shift lasted nearly twenty-four hours. What were the rest of your shifts like that week?</p>
<p>MK: I got off Monday around three o’clock, and I had to be back for the midnight to 12pm shift, so I worked midnights to noon for the next, I would say, week. I can’t remember exactly when we went back to an eight hour shift, but it was at least a week. Usually we would be busy from the onset, from around midnight until, maybe six, then there’d be a lull, and then it would start to pick up again around, after daylight, around nine o’clock. We’d start to get some incidents and some problems. The other shift, the guys that worked the noon to midnight, they caught bad times. Certainly much worse than we did. In part, because there was a curfew and you had to be off the street—and don’t hold me to the hours because it’s been a while—but it was like eight o’clock to eight o’clock, so we could be driving around at two o’clock in the morning and you wouldn’t see a soul. You wouldn’t see headlights, you wouldn’t see anything. Then all of a sudden you hear, “Pop! Pop! Pop!” The officers that worked the noon to midnight, they got their butts kicked at times.</p>
<p>WW: You spoke about how looting wasn’t heavily—arresting for looting was heavily done because you were sticking your neck out.</p>
<p>MK: We made a lot of arrests for looting, but there were a lot that you just didn’t have a choice, because number one, you were outnumbered. Severely outnumbered. We had four-man cars, and in a lot of cases, they would have caravans of three cars with four officers each. And still, if you pulled into that liquor store, you talk about being outnumbered. You’re outnumbered. There was a safety blanket that you had to maintain.</p>
<p>WW: Was the curfew heavily enforced?</p>
<p>MK: Yeah, and I think a lot of the arrests that were mandated during that time were because of the curfew. A lot. Some people just didn’t take it to heart at first, and when they end up in the bowels of the Bastille, they realize, yeah, I guess they’re going to enforce it. Oh yeah, we had, oh I can’t tell you how many people at one time in that precinct under arrest. 100? And probably at least 50% were for broken curfew. Because that was the one way they had to convince people that you had to stay off the streets. You have to get off. We were going to enforce it rigorously and they did. We arrested—myself, probably a dozen. And most of them were after midnight, and they were out there foolishly. Why would you be out there under the circumstances, unless you’re potentially up to no good? The precinct itself, we had upwards of a hundred prisoners at one time. In fact, we had to store them in the garage because that was the only place, secure place, that we could do it.</p>
<p>WW: How do you interpret what happened in July 1967? Do you see it as a riot? Do you see it as a rebellion?</p>
<p>MK: I’ve always referred to it as a riot because in my connotation of a riot, it’s where public law has been allowed to be trampled on and it was. I mean, there were some individuals that came out that thought that they could talk to the group that started the whole thing, which was the blind pig, and there were some public officials that found out quickly their voice wasn’t being heard. Now I wasn’t there, but I’ve read enough about it that I know that’s what happened. It was a warm night, blind pigs were a dime a dozen. Every precinct had them, every neighborhood probably had them. Certainly in the black community, they were just a social entity. They were illegal, but they were there. It was just a fact of life. And I had done some raids on blind pigs, and we never had any problems. People knew that what they were doing was wrong, you weren’t after the people that were the party-goers; we were after the people that were running it. So maybe two or three people would go to jail, all the stuff would be confiscated. Some of the customers might or might not get a ticket, life went on and they’d be open the next weekend. I mean, seriously, they would! But that particular night, whatever the mood was over there—and I wasn’t there, so I can’t speak to it—must’ve got a little out of hand, and once it got out of hand, six o’clock on a Sunday morning is probably the weakest time for law enforcement. You’ve got the fewest resources. And that’s what happened.</p>
<p>WW: Backtracking a little bit, when you were with the police department, what was your primary work? Just a moment ago you said you did a couple raids, were you on the vice squad?</p>
<p>MK: I was a patrolman from ’63 to ’70, to ’71, and ’71 I got promoted to sergeant. And that entire time I spent in the precinct on the street. Then I was a sergeant on the street for about a year and a half, and I was asked if I would take over the Police Athletic League program, which at the time was miniscule. It was very, very small, but they had visions of advancing the program, and they had an agreement with Chrysler Corporation to come in as a big sponsor and really expand the program. I had a reasonable background in athletics. I had some experience in buying equipment and that. And they asked me if I would come in and take it over as a sergeant. I had bosses above me, but basically I was running it for a time. Chrysler came in and that thing took off. They started spending money, they started sponsorships, it went from a very small program to where it’s at today. I mean, they’re renovating the site of the old Tiger’s Stadium. They’re going to put their new offices down there. So it really took off. And I was there for almost two years, and I was ready to be a cop again. I was an athletic director, but I was ready to be a cop again. So I went back to a precinct and I stayed there, and then I got promoted to lieutenant. Basically I spent my last fourteen years on the street.</p>
<p>WW: And when did you leave the police department?</p>
<p>MK: I left there in April of 1987. Chrysler made me an offer I couldn’t refuse. They came to me and offered me the job as Lee Iaccoco’s body guard. Driver/bodyguard. I really didn’t want the job, but they recruited me, recruited me, and I took it as a one-month trial. I was there two days and said, am I nuts? What am I thinking about? So I left the department officially in April of ’87 and I was with him for eight and a half years. And then I did internal investigations for Chrysler for eight and a half years, and I retired, and just before I retired, they made me another offer I couldn’t refuse, which was a part-time position doing kind of what I was doing towards the latter part of my career, which was investigating people that were out on disability and on workman’s comp that were suspect. They gave me that position. I ran everything from Boston to Vancouver. What I did basically was manage the cases. I contracted out a lot of surveillance work, I reviewed all the surveillance work, and if I thought that there was a basis for discipline against an employee, I would take it to the higher-ups and they would make the decisions, and then I would go interview the employee after he’d been interviewed by our doctor. It was a fun job, probably the most fun job I ever had. You really got a sense of the human psyche. Some of the people…we had one that was blind, couldn’t see; she could drive everywhere better than me! I spent almost 25 years with the department and my only regret’s probably the last couple years, because it got to be so political. It really, really became political. I went through Affirmative Action, I was one of those passed over, bitter about it. I’m probably a little bitter about it to this day. I had to go back and retake, retest. I was 22 on the promotional list, and they promoted about sixty, but I didn’t get it. Because what they did is take one white male, one white female, one black male, one black female. So if you were 22 on the list, are you number 10 white male, or number 22? Cause that’s how it went. But later on, the union took it to court, and because of a labor issue about a year and a half before, the commissioner then made the comment as Affirmative Action was being invoked that if there were any openings in any rank, we’ll fill them. Well here come like twelve openings for the rank of lieutenant and he wouldn’t fill them because they had promoted all of the black males, all of the females, white and black, there was nothing left but white males, so he didn’t want to promote. They gave him another test. Next test came along, they couldn’t pass me because I got so high up. I actually got promoted, and they went back and went to the union, I ended up getting 10 months of back seniority and 10 months of back pay. That was kind of an after-effect in the long run of the change in the city. Because when Coleman came in, things changed dramatically. Particularly the police department. Particularly the police department.</p>
<p>WW: When did you move out of the city?</p>
<p>MK: 1988. I had three cars stolen in a period of nine months, three of my cars. And at the last one I said, okay, I had a new car that I had purchased for my wife got stolen and torched, and I said, “Okay,” I told her, “Go find us a house,” and she did a rock star job and here we are.</p>
<p>WW: Is there anything else you’d like to share with us?</p>
<p>MK: Like I say, in some respects I kind of had a sheltered life until I went to college because that was just the neighborhood I was raised in. The city, to me, the real change came with Coleman Young. That’s when the real change came. Even after the riots, STRESS, which came in under John Eccles, probably a major factor in Coleman’s election. But after he came in, everything started changing dramatically. Certainly, certainly with the police department because we went from, probably we had 85% male white, maybe even more than that, to suddenly we were getting a large influx of recruits that were blacks and females both, a lot of females. And that caused some problems, a lot of problems. Did the riots affect the city? Oh, absolutely, no question about it. The election of Coleman I think was probably the major factor. In fact, I’m convinced it was the major factor. Because things were turned upside down. His vision of the city was much different from previous administrations; pretty much different than probably the populous as a whole.</p>
<p>WW: How do you see the city going today?</p>
<p>MK: You know, it’s funny I see a turn-around that I didn’t think I would’ve saw three years ago, four years ago. My biggest fear for the city yet remains the residential aspect of it. My wife and I lived, like I said, near 8 mile and Gratiot. I drove through there about a month ago. It was enough to make me sick to my stomach. I mean, it was a bedroom, bungalow kind of community. Brick homes, nice. You drive down the street, they’re burned out, they’re vacant, they’re abandoned. That’s probably the one area that’s going to take the longest. Until people feel safe to come back. Downtown—I love what I see downtown. I’m glad to see that they’ve finally got the M-1 Project going, I’m glad to see the arenas, the casinos, the housing down there. You’ve got Gilbert, and the Illitches, and other people who have committed their resources to bring that area back, but until the residential areas are brought back, Detroit as a whole is not going to come back. We had 1.7 million people living there in Detroit, when I graduated from high school in ’55, to 700,000 now. That’s where it’s at. It’s in the residential areas. The east side of Detroit is decimated. I mean, absolutely decimated. When we got married, we lived on a street called Lindhurst which was basically 6 mile, well maybe between 6 and 7 Mile on John R. street. You can’t drive down those streets. They’re so strewn with garbage, you literally can’t go through them. You don’t know what street you’re on because there are no street signs. Until that gets turned around, individual homes, people wanting to live back in the city, they’ve got a long haul. Downtown, magnificent. Some of the business areas I’m really pleased to see come back. My granddaughter goes to Wayne. She lives off of Ferry and Cass in one of those 120-year-old apartments, and we go down there occasionally to pick her up and we’ll go have breakfast. It’s amazing to see what Wayne State’s done. I mean, I started out there, but in a different era. To see where that’s come, to see the medical center. My wife was an RN down at Harper Hospital for years. She’s only been gone ten years, but in ten years it’s amazing how much has changed for the good. I’m optimistic for the city. I hope that they continue on the same vein that they’re going on right now. The mayor is a former graduate of my old high school, so I got a little special place for him, but I think he’s done a good job. But he’s got the Gilberts, he’s got the Illitches, he’s got the big money that’s willing to invest, and that’s what it’s going to take. You didn’t have that ten years ago. That’s why, if you drove down Woodward, it looked like a ghost town. It was funny because one night, Mr. I and I were driving home one night from the ball game, we’re driving down Woodward, and there was nothing. He said to me, “My God,” he says, “You could shoot a cannon down these streets!” Yeah. And I said, “This isn’t unique. This is the way it is.” But some of that is starting to turn around, we’re starting to see some of those buildings being renovated, businesses coming into it, so I’m optimistic for the city. I think it’s got a hell of a start to come back. But the residential area, that’s got to be the key. Number one, the biggest reason I think the residential area has to come back, taxes. You don’t have that revenue right now that the city desperately needs. And that’s where it’s going to be. The tax base in the city has been totally eroded, totally. Business can support a lot of tax, but until they get the residential areas up and running, get that and the schools. The school system is pathetic. Absolutely pathetic. I can remember one night when I was still with the department, we had to go up to Northern high school, which was on Woodward; they’d had a break-in. And for whatever reason, they had a bunch of papers, essays, term papers that were outside the building, outside the window. I’m certainly not a professor of English, but I picked them up, starting reading them, and they were horrific. I mean the English, the spelling was horrific! I thought, my God, these are kids that are getting cheated. They’re getting short changed if this is acceptable. They’re getting cheated. I went to Wayne, I’ll never forget. We had a guy who was a professor, he was a Hungarian Freedom Fighter, and he’d come here in 1957, I think. He taught a class and one of the subjects in this day was schools, public schools versus parochial schools. And he made the comment, “I can tell by reading a paper who went to public school and who went to parochial school.” Some of the kids that went to public school took offense to it. He said, “I’ll tell you what, I’ll give you a paragraph. All I want’s one paragraph. I’ll grade them and I’ll tell you which is which: who went to public and who went to private.” He missed on two. And I’m not downgrading public education, don’t get me wrong. But that night at Northern, I read some of those papers and I thought, oh my God, how can you accept this? We’re cheating these kids! These kids are being cheated if that’s acceptable! They’re being cheated.</p>
<p>WW: One final question that I did miss earlier: Of the arrestees, were they primarily black or a solid mix?</p>
<p>MK: I would say probably 90% of those arrested—maybe I’m a little off, maybe 80% of those arrested were black. The area that I patrolled was probably 90% black. I can think of one Hispanic that we arrested and the only reason I think of him was because to this day, we’re convinced he was one of the snipers. Couldn’t prove it, but we knew damn well he was.</p>
<p>WW: All right. Thank you very much for sitting down with us today!</p>
<p>MK: Thank you. I don’t know what I’ve contributed, but…</p>
<p>WW: Greatly appreciate it.</p>
Original Format
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Audio
Duration
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43min; 06sec
Interviewer
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William Winkel
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Michael Krotche
Location
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Sterling Heights
Video
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<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/NwEQRg7cEus" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Michael Krotche, June 15th, 2016
Description
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In this interview, Krotche discusses growing up in a Polish community in Hamtramck and his experiences as a Detroit police officer on duty during the summer of 1967,
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
Date
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06/21/2016
Rights
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Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Format
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Audio/WAV
Language
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en-US
Type
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Oral History
101st Airborne
1967 riot—Detroit—Michigan
82nd Airborne
Black Panther Party
Curfew
Detroit Police Department
Detroit Tigers
Gun Violence
Hamtramck
Looting
Mayor Coleman Young
Michigan National Guard
Snipers
STRESS
-
https://detroit1967.detroithistorical.org/files/original/cc038c16e297a41d2132432c42d9e271.jpg
892b358dd501434a6ec20d8c370c32bb
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Detroit 67: Looking Back to Move Forward
Subject
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Stories gathered to commemorate the summer of 1967 in Detroit.
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
Rights
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Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Language
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en-us
Date
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10/20/2019
Oral History
An audio or video resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Narrator/Interviewee's Name
The current first and last name of the person speaking or being interviewed.
Gerald Raines
Brief Biography
A short biography of the Interviewee
Gerald Raines was born in October of 1943 and grew up in Detroit, MI where he lived during the 1967 disturbance. Raines worked with Detroit Edison and lived a few blocks from the origins of the 1967 disturbance.
Interviewer's Name
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William Winkel
Interview Place
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Detroit, MI
Date
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03/19/2016
Interview Length
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00:42:17
Transcriptionist
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Timothy Streasick
Transcription Date
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06/02/2016
Transcription
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<p>Gerald Raines: GR</p>
<p>William Winkel: WW</p>
<p>WW: Hello my name is William Winkel. Today is March 19<sup>th</sup>, 2016. We are in Detroit, Michigan. This interview is for the Detroit Historical Society’s 1967 Oral History Project and this is the interview of Gerald Raines. Thank you for sitting down with me today.</p>
<p>GR: You are certainly welcome.</p>
<p>WW: Can you please tell me where and when were you born?</p>
<p>GR: Oh, I was born in Detroit, Michigan in October of 1943.</p>
<p>WW: Can you tell me where you grew up?</p>
<p>GR: Grew up in Detroit, but I had—my mother moved to different parts of Detroit. I did not grow up with my father. In fact, I did not even see my father until I was in the fifties—I mean, age fifties.</p>
<p>WW: Oh, okay. What was your childhood like growing up?</p>
<p>GR: Well, we were basically poor. But I had a couple brothers and sisters over time. I was six, seven years older than my brothers and fifteen years older than my sisters, but my brothers and sisters had different fathers than I had.</p>
<p>WW: What was it like growing up in a household where you were so much older than them?</p>
<p>GR: It was okay. I mean, since all I had, all I knew, in terms of growing up were the general type of poor—what was considered to be poor houses as opposed to richer houses—it was okay growing up. I just pretty much I knew that my mother—who was, like I said, raising her kids singly—she worked most of the time. So when she worked—for example, if she worked from three to eleven—I took care of my brothers generally from that time. Now, when she married the father of my brothers they only were married for a few years and so there were times when I had to raise my brothers when my mother was not around. And now with my sister, my mother, she was working and so was my step-father so I even helped raise my sister, especially in early age.</p>
<p>WW: What did your mother do for a living?</p>
<p>GR: What did she do for a living? Oh she did a bunch of stuff. She did—she was a waitress. She worked in a warehouse, a commercial warehouse. I forget what company but she worked in a warehouse. She also worked in a retail store for a while.</p>
<p>WW: What was it like to grow up in the fifties?</p>
<p>WW: [Speaking at same time] What was the city like?</p>
<p>GR: [Speaking at same time] The fifties—</p>
<p>GR: It was okay. Of course, the main thing that was happening with me as far as I was concerned was the school. Went to different schools. Like I said, when my mother moved to different neighborhoods I went to different schools. Elementary schools, I probably went to three or four different elementary schools. When I started—I forget the name of the schools, but that was seventh, eighth, ninth grade, I went to—it was called Sherrard—I can’t think of it, oh, Intermediate school. Fortunately when I went to Sherrard I didn’t have to go to different intermediate schools then but even if my mother moved I just had to still went to Sherrard regardless of where I was living from. That was not quite the same thing that was happening with the elementary schools. But then, of course, when I started high school if I moved—if I went to high school that was in that I lived closer to it would be Northern but because I didn’t—I had heard about the different fighting and stuff that was going on at Northern, I found out that I could go to Cass Tech and so I told my mother I wanted to go to Cass Tech and she said, “Okay, you just have to go pay for bus fare every day you go,” and I said, “okay,” so I got a part time job to do that and so I went to Cass Tech.</p>
<p>WW: That’s amazing.</p>
<p>GR: And I graduated from Cass Tech in ’61.</p>
<p>WW: What was it like growing up, or being a young adult in the 1960s with the different social movements going through the city?</p>
<p>GR: In the sixties? Well first, like I say I was—when I had graduated from Cass Tech in ’61 the big thing was to get a job and I did get a job. I got a job with Ford Motor Company factory and then I wound up, after working for at Ford Motor Company out in Dearborn, I was able to get a job at Detroit Edison and that was the basis of starting my career—technical career for, I worked for Detroit Edison while I was going to college. And also I had a girlfriend during that time, in the early sixties, and I had one girlfriend, now that is the only one and we wound up getting married after a while and that was it. In the sixties, so I was living with my girlfriend, we had gotten married. During the ’67 I was living my girlfriend, we were married and now she was my wife we were living in a rent, we rented a place on the street called Blaine which was between Linwood and La Salle and I was working at Detroit Edison, going to college, my wife was going to college also, and that just took a lot of her time.</p>
<p>WW: Where were you going to college at?</p>
<p>GR: I started going to college at Highland Park Community College and I only did that for one semester but then I went to Wayne for quite a while. I went to Wayne full time from, wow, it was—I went to Wayne from, in fact, I think I went there—before ’67 I had started Wayne. I was going to Wayne around ’64, ’65 and went all the way to Wayne until ’79. Got two Masters from Wayne, part time while I was going to Wayne because I was working—</p>
<p>WW: Mhmm?</p>
<p>GR: —full time, all the time, when I was going to Wayne.</p>
<p> WW: That’s amazing. Leading up to 1967 did you feel any tensions rising in the city?</p>
<p>GR: Not really. I did not. I mean, you hear news. You listen to the news and there would be—you would hear about certain things going on, some of them were racist, some of them were not, but it did not affect me and my family personally. And when I say my family, my personal family, my wife, and it did not affect my mother and her husband that she was having a nice marriage in. Her first husband was a real problem because he was a drunk, he was a wife beater, he wound up—this was the father of my two brothers—and he wound up going to prison because he got involved in a fight and he killed someone during the fight and he wound up going to prison. Then she married somebody else, the father of my sisters, and they were married for forty years or something like that. So what I was saying then in answer to your question the issues that were going around, news issues, for me, now I do not know exactly how it bothered them, but it did not really bother me. So I was surprised when I heard about the riot. As a matter of fact, the way I heard about the riot, which I think was July, what was it, twenty-nine?</p>
<p>WW: Twenty-three.</p>
<p>GR: Twenty-three. The night before, July twenty-second, my wife and I went to a club on Dexter near Joy Rd. I can’t think of that back street, but it was near Joy Rd., and the reason I mention that is because it was not that far from where the riot had started but there was no evidence that night that there was a problem, more so than any other night. So the next day, which was a Sunday, I got a call around approximately nine o’clock, nine or something, from my mother and she was saying that there was—she was letting me know that there was a riot going on. And I didn’t know anything about the riot, I didn’t hear anything on the news—course I was still in bed to tell you to the truth—so anyway, I said, I told my mother that I would try to find out. She wanted the reason, one of the reason she was calling me because she knew I lived close to where the riot was. But I told her I would find out about it so the first thing I did was turn on the TV to get the news and then I heard on the TV that there was a riot going on and I heard that it was going on Twelfth and, uh—</p>
<p>WW: Clairmount.</p>
<p>GR: Yeah, Twelfth and Clairmount but I was also wondering did I hear that it was also on another place on Twelfth. But anyways so what I did, I put my clothes on, I had breakfast, and then I walked—like I said, I lived on Blaine between Linwood and La Salle and that’s only not too far from Twelfth, so I just walked to Twelfth. So soon as I, while I was walking to Twelfth on Blaine on the twenty-third there was no evidence that there was a riot. But when I got right to the corner of Twelfth and Blaine then I, when I got right to Twelfth, yeah, there was a riot. There was a riot going on. And I looked toward Clairmount and a lot of stuff going on, and then I looked opposite going north, I mean going south, there was also riot issues going on. It was not as intense in terms of the number of activities going on as it was toward Clairmount but it was still issues going on. So here I am on the corner of Twelfth and Blaine and so riot was going on north and south on Twelfth.</p>
<p>WW: How did the rest of your week play out, being so close to the center?</p>
<p>GR: Oh, let me tell you. First of all, I stayed on—this was a Sunday, and I was, I was not doing anything to attempt to riot. I was not attempting, trying to steal nothing, I was not trying to have a problem with anybody, but while I was just observing the riot there was one time I almost got shot by the police because I was standing on the corner with a bunch of other people, I was not—because I was walking up and down Twelfth and I think it was Hazelwood, I am not sure exactly—but I was standing on the corner with somebody and then there was a guy, a black guy, that was running toward the corner and apparently away from the police and the police was pointing a gun to where he was running, because he was running right to the corner where me and a couple of other people were standing. And then he took off—not from the corner, he went somewhere else—and now I am looking at the barrel of the cop, you know, his gun. And I was, I just assumed that he was going to shoot but he did not. And then there was another case also on that particular day that—no, it was not on that day, it was on Monday, because now they had, it was not the military, it was—</p>
<p>WW: National Guard?</p>
<p>GR: National Guard. So National Guard, because what happened the next day—and I knew—I got a call that if I worked at Edison do not come at that particular day, they will let me know about Tuesday. So since I did not have to go to work in Edison on the Monday, I walked back up on to Twelfth and the same problem—there was still as much intensity of people robbing and running back and forth and doing whatever and there was a situation. They had a National Guard guy up on the roof and I happened look up to see a National Guard up on the roof and he had a rifle pointing toward where I was standing with some other people and I thought he was going to shoot. He did not shoot, but now in terms of on Monday I walked up and down Twelfth and, like I said, it was still a problem. But I had also heard someone say that the riot had moved to Linwood so then I went to go walk up to Linwood.</p>
<p>Now at that time, and I may be wrong about the exact date because I did the same thing on Tuesday, but on Monday when I walked up to Linwood and Blaine it was the same type of activity—riot type activity—that was going on on Linwood. Maybe not as far down north as Linwood as it was on Twelfth—and, the same thing, it did not go that far down south on Linwood from Blaine, so it went maybe two or three blocks down south on Linwood—however, what was happening now did not happen on Sunday. But what was happening on Monday was houses on fire. Also what happened was there was a store, a grocery store, a black-owned grocery store on the corner of Blaine and Linwood and you would go to the store, buy stuff—bread, milk, whatever the case happened to be—did not do what you would call soup shopping like you would at a supermarket, but two or three times a day you would go to the store to buy stuff you need or wanted. Well, this particular store was open and he had raised the price of everything that was in the store. As I remember, I think a quart of milk—or maybe it was a half-gallon of milk in a carton—he was charging over five dollars for that. I think that a loaf of bread he was charging several dollars for that, which I was really, really surprised.</p>
<p>But at any rate, as I mentioned when I walked up to Linwood on Blaine I knew several houses were on fire at the time. So I walked up and down Linwood for a while, observing what I could and then coming down Blaine from Linwood, on both sides—and both sides would have been north and south sides of the street—on the south side of the street on Blaine there were about three houses that were on fire as you were going east. On the north side of the street, which I lived on the north side, there were about—three, no okay, first of all, on the north side there were about three houses on fire, on the south side I think there was about four houses and that was causing me a problem because where I was living, renting, I lived upstairs and the landlord lived downstairs and we were in the middle of the block. There was about three houses that were on fire which was three houses from where I was living and on across the street there were at least one more house that was on fire than there were across the street and I could see, I actually saw, one house caught fire from another house.</p>
<p>And so me and a couple of other people in the neighborhood called the fire department and we were told that the fire department—they took the house number where we were but they said they were not sure that the fire department would be able to make it. Not only was it the fire department that was having a whole bunch of problems in terms of dealing with a whole bunch of fires yet also they were saying that because of the riot there was gunshots and so the fire department was concerned about going into a neighborhood and having people shoot at the fire department. So anyway we kept calling because houses were still catching on fire.</p>
<p>So finally one fire truck with one fireman came and when he came on the street that I was living on the fire was two houses down but across the street—it was not exactly across the street but it was one house going west on the street—so anyway, the fire guy said that he did not know what he can do, but he will do whatever he can. So he said that the only thing that he could do is look at a house and see if the house looked like it might catch fire and he would try to put some water on it. But he said that—and so what he did—he said that he needed help and so I volunteered to help him out and a couple of other people volunteered to help him out and what he was doing was across from where I lived but not too far from the area where I lived—one house was burning so bad he said that you cannot do anything with that house but the house next to it, he was soaking it as much as he can to keep it from catching fire. So what we did, we helped him unload the hose and went between the two houses, the house that was on fire already and the house that the fireman was trying to keep from catching fire. While we were right between the two houses and having the hose on the house that had not caught fire yet, and while we were doing that we were impacted—quite negatively impacted—by the smoke, by the fact that different material was falling off of the roof of the house that was already on fire and while that was happening I was saying to myself, “This was the first time I knew what the problems that the fire department had.” And it is also the fact that I do not plan to be a fireman when this was over.</p>
<p>But at any rate we were able to keep—the fireman stayed there for about an hour, an hour and a half, and he kept putting the water on that other house to keep it from catching fire. But when it was all over—and this was something that was in the magazines and in the newspapers and so forth—on Blaine between, the block between Linwood and La Salle, there were about ten, eleven houses that had burned down. And like I said, they, the news people, had taken pictures of it not only on the level of the ground but also had helicopters taking pictures above and that was one of—you might even have copies of that. That happened, I think that was on a Monday.</p>
<p>And then the Tuesday we were told—I got a call from Edison I think that said I could come to work if I wanted to but they said you did not have to but that they would suggest that we try to come. So I came to work, but then I found out that while I was going to Edison, which was in the downtown area, that the riot had also gone to other places. They had gone on the east side and so forth and so we were—I think it took almost a week before quote unquote the riot was considered ended. That is what I remember.</p>
<p>WW: Alright. How do you think the riot affected the city of Detroit?</p>
<p>GR: Oh, no question that it affected it quite a bit. It affected it in terms of—politically affected it, structurally affected it. Politically affected it because the man—I am trying to think who the mayor was at the time—</p>
<p>WW: Cavanagh</p>
<p>GR: Yeah, Cavanagh, he was trying to get together with leaders of different groups, neighborhood groups and other groups, to try and figure out what they were going to do in terms of once all the National Guard had gone and all that kind of stuff, what they were going to do to try to keep from having another riot. They also changed the street name from Twelfth to Rosa Parks. They created different groups. One of the groups that was created was HOPE. There was another group that was created and is still created but I cannot think of the name of it right now. The woman who is</p>
<p>—the head of that the group is a woman, she had been the head of the group for about ten years now, maybe—</p>
<p>WW: New Detroit?</p>
<p>GR: Huh?</p>
<p>WW: New Detroit?</p>
<p>GR: New Detroit, right. That was created and when it was created I forget who was considered to be the chief—at any rate, and I think it also created the fact that many people decided to move out of Detroit. The people who primarily decided to move out of Detroit, lot of them, or most of them, were Jewish because in many parts of the neighborhood, particularly in the northwest, the west and northwest, many Jewish people lived there and when after the riot was over a lot of the Jewish people left. Many of them went to Southfield, many of them went to, I think a lot of them went to Warren and so forth. And what happened was when they left a lot of Blacks from the so called black neighborhoods on the near east side moved from the near east side to the houses that were available once a lot of the Jewish people left. And so it changed the way that, like I said, politically as well as socially. The population of Detroit changed. That took two, three years, three to five years but those changes took place.</p>
<p>WW: How do you think the city has managed itself over the last forty years?</p>
<p>GR: Well—it could be better, of course, but it could have been a lot worse than it is. Obviously the city had the issue about how much money they had to deal with certain things but also in the last forty years what happened with the city of Detroit depended upon the people, the mayor, and the common council. Obviously when Kwame Kilpatrick was mayor for eight years or whatever there was a lot of financial as well as social issues that were negative. Before Kilpatrick it was—</p>
<p>WW: Archer.</p>
<p>GR: It was who?</p>
<p>WW: Archer?</p>
<p>GR: Archer, right. He did some positive stuff but it was not a whole—it was more stable. Before Archer, of course, was Coleman Young and Coleman Young was after Cavanagh. And anyway Coleman Young was mayor for, I do not know, almost twenty years. Several elections—but the point is that during that time Coleman Young was able to—certainly the first half of his general total election—he was able to get the fact that blacks who were still, who was primarily in Detroit that was eighty percent in Detroit, tried to give them a lot of personal, positive attitudes even though it may not, even if you was living in a poor neighborhood, Coleman Young was trying to give you, make you feel better about that. Trying so that you would not feel bad about the fact that because of the riot people who left—people who could leave Detroit left Detroit and people who was left in Detroit was just negative. So I think it could have been—you say in forty years, it could have been better but it could have been a lot worse too.</p>
<p>WW: And is there anything else you would like to add today?</p>
<p>GR: Well—not really. The one thing that I would say about Detroit, about the riot, which was, of course, in ’67. Since between ’67 and ’16, 2016, there have been riots all over the country. Some of the riots came not too long after ’67 in major cities like Los Angeles or Baltimore, wherever else. I forget the other places. And then, of course, within the last, oh, two years there have been riots that happened because of the issues with police and black people that were arrested by the, generally arrested by white policeman—but the point is that Detroit has not had a riot. Not saying they did not have any issues that they had to deal with, but they never had any more riots since ’67. Even though, throughout the country, over the last forty years, even up until the last couple years, there have been riots. And there have been issues that could have been a riot because even with Detroit I would say back in, right after the riot there were police issues—</p>
<p>WW: Mhmm.</p>
<p>GR: —that could have led to another type of riot. But it has not. Not to any great extent, anyway. And that is about it.</p>
<p>WW: Alright, thank you very much for sitting down with me.</p>
<p>GR: You are certainly welcome. I would—I just wish I had—because I had kept a lot of almost everything that was in the papers and the magazines, I had kept in a folder about the riot. But I just cannot seem to—cannot find it, I do not know how to find it.</p>
<p>WW: Well if you find it, I would love to get my hands on it.</p>
<p>GR: Oh, okay-</p>
<p>[TIME STAMP END OF INTERVIEW 42:17]</p>
<p class="Normal1">[End of Track 1]</p>
Original Format
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Audio
Interviewer
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William Winkel
Interviewee
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Gerald Raines
Location
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Detroit, MI
Video
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<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/LqqKBBsF5GA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>
Dublin Core
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Title
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Gerald Raines, March 19th, 2016
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview Gerald Raines discusses his home life and education while growing up in Detroit, Michigan. He also details his observations during the first few days of the 1967 disturbances, including his time spent volunteering to assist the fire department with preventing the spread of house fires. He discusses the impact the disturbance had on Detroit as well as his thoughts on Detroit in the years since.
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
Date
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06/07/2016
Rights
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Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Format
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WAV
Language
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en-US
Type
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Audio
1967 riot—Detroit—Michigan
Blaine Street
Cass Technical High School
Detroit Fire Department
Gun Violence
Mayor Coleman Young
Michigan National Guard
Twelfth Street
-
https://detroit1967.detroithistorical.org/files/original/f4fd5cfd3fbe7ba3821ca49527dfa9ef.jpg
a1af5fc6830e3cb021c88546b07e18ed
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Detroit 67: Looking Back to Move Forward
Subject
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Stories gathered to commemorate the summer of 1967 in Detroit.
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
Rights
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Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Language
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en-us
Date
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10/20/2019
Oral History
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Narrator/Interviewee's Name
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Berl Falbaum
Brief Biography
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Berl Falbaum was born in Germany and spent the first ten years of his life living in Shanghai, China. His family then came to the United States where they made Detroit their home. Felbaum worked for the <i> Detroit News</i>, covering Mayor Cavanagh's office during the events of July 1967.
Interviewer's Name
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William Winkel
Date
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04/21/2016
Interview Length
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00:28:24
Transcriptionist
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Julie Vandenbloom
Transcription
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<p> WW: Hello, my name is William Winkel. Today is April 21, 2016. This is the interview of Berl Falbaum for the 1967 Oral History Project. Thank you very much for sitting down with me today.</p>
<p>BF: My pleasure. Thank you for being here.</p>
<p>WW: Can you please tell me, where and when were you born?</p>
<p>BF: I was born in Berlin, Germany, in October 8, 1938.</p>
<p>WW: When did you come to the United States?</p>
<p>BF: Well, it was during the rise of Hitler – of course, he's already been in power – we escaped from Nazi Germany in August of '39, and escaped to Shanghai, China, where twenty thousand Jews escaped to. And I spent the first ten years of my life in Shanghai.</p>
<p>WW: What brought your family to Detroit?</p>
<p>BF: Well, after the war, different countries were starting to pick up refugees, and this country – the United States opened its borders, and we applied, and fortunately got accepted, and we came to Detroit, landing first in San Francisco, in August of '48.</p>
<p>WW: Who came to Detroit with you?</p>
<p>BF: Just my parents. I have no siblings.</p>
<p>WW: Okay. What was your first experience in Detroit? What was your first impression?</p>
<p>BF: Well, my first impression was the plentiful nature of the United States, given that we were poor – extremely poor – in Shanghai, war-torn, you know, and drug-infested, and war-torn – and so the plentiful nature of food was my first impression. And we moved into what is now called Rosa Parks Boulevard – it was Twelfth Street at the time – and I was enrolled in the fourth grade. But those were my impressions of – you know, first of all we had freedom, we could move around unlike in Shanghai, and we had, you know, enough food, and so forth.</p>
<p>WW: The time when you moved into Twelfth Street area – that was still predominantly Jewish, correct?</p>
<p>BF: No – not at the – well – yes and no. It was changing. There's a history in Detroit, as you know, probably maybe even better than I do, of movement of Jews from Hastings, way down south in Detroit, to Twelfth Street, then Dexter, then Seven Mile and Shafer, then Oak Park. And at the time we moved into Twelfth Street, that neighborhood was already dramatically changing.</p>
<p>WW: So how much time did you spend in the Twelfth Street area growing up?</p>
<p>BF: Fourth grade, I'm going to say, until the ninth or tenth grade, and we moved to Dexter. Dexter, roughly south of Davison – about a mile south of Davison – and I went to Central High School.</p>
<p>At Twelfth Street I went to Crossman Elementary, which is closed – it's boarded up, but it's still there – then I went to Hutchins Intermediate – we called it intermediate, which is middle school, and that's still there and active – and then I went to Central High School, which is still active – when I went – moved to Dexter.</p>
<p>WW: What were your experiences growing up in the city, especially in an interracial area?</p>
<p>BF: Well, I had, you know, very good experiences. I moved – always grew up in interracial atmosphere, which, of course, is very positive in terms of your education and interrelationships. So I had, you know, extremely good relationships growing up there. I wish it had stayed interracial, you know, again the white flight caused it to be almost predominantly, if not exclusively, a black community, and that's bad on the other side, so to speak. The interrelationship aspect would have been better, so – we already experienced the white flight from Twelfth Street, then Dexter and Seven Mile and Shafer.</p>
<p>WW: Growing up, what did your parents do for a living after they moved to the city?</p>
<p>BF: Well, my dad was a tailor. And he was a tailor in Germany, he was a tailor in Shanghai. He worked in a variety of shops. And my mother became a domestic to help out, because we were obviously extremely poor.</p>
<p>WW: How did growing up in a poor neighborhood affect you?</p>
<p>BF: Well, it affected me in a sense that I – I am not at all materialistic, and I raised my family on having what it needs – and I think that's good. One thing that I notice is the materialism of this country, you know – always see a new car – and one of the things that always – hasn't left me – is now we have cars which warm your seats. I mean, that's sort of indicative of my philosophy. You know, I wouldn't have thought of that in a million years. I'm a utilitarian kind of guy, you know, I have a – I never bought a new car – and I think that's because of my background. I've always bought a used car. I don't care the car it is, just gets me from A to B. So that's how my background impacted me, you know. I buy my clothes at thrifty stores – not because I don't want to spend the money – I don't see the point. And you know, I'd be glad – I like spending money for travel – so I think that's basically because of my background. You know, I use paper, I cut it in half, and use scraps of paper, and I think that's not because I'm cheap – I'm delighted to spend money, you know, on travel – but materialistically, I had a tremendous – that had a tremendous impact on me.</p>
<p>WW: Growing up in the 1950s, did you notice any tension growing in the city?</p>
<p>BF: Oh yes, yes, yeah. There was a lot of tension in the schools. I – you know – you could feel the tension between the blacks and whites – you know – there – again, discrimination they suffered, and the white flight caused a lot of problems, you know, and I understand that now, of course, and sympathetic to it. So there were a lot of tensions already in school, between the races, you know, and so to answer your question, yes. I noticed it. Yeah.</p>
<p>WW: Do you remember any particular instances where it was right in front of you?</p>
<p>BF: Yeah, yeah. I was a paper boy, and, you know, I'd be confronted with blacks who – I had good relationships, and I liked interrelationships, but – there were these confrontations from time to time, and especially with young kids, you know – so you'd have confrontations in school, on the streets. You know, I think they understood my view too, and so to answer your question, overall, yes. There were confrontations in school between blacks and whites. There were confrontations on the streets. I understood it, as much as a fifteen, sixteen year old, you know, understood. Of course I understood it better as I grew older.</p>
<p>WW: Moving into the 1960s, what year did you graduate from high school?</p>
<p>BF: From high school? January '57, and I went to Wayne State University, and I graduated from Wayne State in the summer of '61, because I was already hired by the <i> News</i> as a reporter full-time before I finished, and so I finished at night.</p>
<p>WW: What work did you do for the <i>Detroit News</i>?</p>
<p>BF: I started out as – where everybody starts out – you do a variety of beats. I went to the police beat, where you cover crime, and then you went to general assignment, meaning you do soup to nuts, you do a little of everything, and in '65 I was sent over to City Hall to cover politics.</p>
<p>WW: When you were covering the police, did you notice any – did you cover the Big Four at all?</p>
<p>BF: Big Four?</p>
<p>WW: The police tactic used in the early 1960s.</p>
<p>BF: I don't remember it by that name. What you do – what I did at the police beat is – there's – it's closed now, it closed many years ago – but there's an office that the press has in police headquarters. At the time it was manned by three – well, three newspapers – one died quickly – the <i>News</i>, <i>Free Press</i>, and the <i>Times</i>, and you covered murder from that desk. And you went to a different office in that building – you never left the building. And you'd call around to suburban bureaus to see what was going on every few hours. You had, you know, hundreds of phone calls to make. So when you say did you cover the Big Four, there was a very controversial program called STRESS [Stop The Robberies, Enjoy Safe Streets.</p>
<p>WW: Yeah, that was later on.</p>
<p>BF: That was later on. So the answer is, I didn't cover it as such. I covered the crime, and so forth. I didn't really cover the politics of the crime – I covered the crime.</p>
<p>WW: Okay.</p>
<p>BF: I – you know, if there's a murder I'd go cover that. Don't go – you cover it from your office. And if there's a good story – meaning a terrible story – required a reporter on scene, that was done out of the office.</p>
<p>WW: Okay. Was moving from crime – the police department to City Hall a promotion, or -</p>
<p>BF: Yeah.</p>
<p>WW: Was it just a different assignment?</p>
<p>BF: Well, a different assignment. Those who stayed with the police would say it's a different – I know I didn't like doing that. It was a good learning process, but I don't – I love politics. So next I went on general assignment – there were people on police beat which have been there for thirty years. And so they would say that's heaven to them, but it wasn't my kind of – similarly, I didn't want to cover sports, but – I went to general assignment, which you cover everything, and I did that for about three-four years, and then I went over to City Hall.</p>
<p>WW: So you were covering City Hall in 1967, correct?</p>
<p>BF: I started in '65 at City Hall and yes, I was at City Hall in '67 when the riot broke out July 23, 1967.</p>
<p>WW: Where were you living in 1967?</p>
<p>BF: I was just inside the border of Detroit, on Schoolcraft and Telegraph – the other side of Telegraph. I was on the east side of Telegraph and the other side was where Redford Township. And we were on the Detroit border. Matter of fact Sunday I was sitting on my porch – well, we – a little step, it wasn't a porch – when I heard on the radio, the riot, and I said to my wife I've got to go downtown and go to work. She said, "You're not leaving the family for a riot.” I said yes I am.</p>
<p>WW: What was the atmosphere going in – driving through the city and then getting to City Hall?</p>
<p>BF: Well, at the time, I didn't encounter any police or military yet. It was just broke out. So I didn't go to City Hall, I went to the main office. We had an office in City Hall where you covered the politics, you never went to it, but I knew right away I'd go back to the city room and see what my assignment would be. But I didn't encounter anything on the streets. And I didn't see anything because I didn't go into the – driving down, I didn't pass the 12<sup>th</sup> Street – devastated area.</p>
<p>WW: Can you share some of your experiences you had during that week?</p>
<p>BF: Sure. In '65 I [unintelligible], by '67 I think I was head or chief of the bureau and my job was to cover the mayor. So what I did, was I just attached myself to the mayor, meaning wherever he went, I went. Whatever meetings and press conference I'd cover. And so, the answer is yes, one of the pictures I gave to – uh – what's his -</p>
<p>WW: Joel.</p>
<p>BF: Joel is, I have a picture of the mayor and Senator Philip Hart, democrat from – U.S. Senator, from Michigan. They were touring the area, and I have a picture – I'm behind them, and I gave him that photo, and we toured – he toured, I followed, and took notes – you know, what they were saying, and so forth. So that was my major assignment, and I covered the press conference between Mayor Cavanagh, Governor Romney, who came in of course, George Romney. Cyrus Vance, who was sent in from Lyndon Johnson, I think he was Secretary of State at the time was -</p>
<p>WW: Defense.</p>
<p>BF: Huh?</p>
<p>WW: He had stepped down as Secretary of Defense.</p>
<p>BF: Yeah, okay. He came in as the federal representative, and so I covered those. So I didn't really cover the riot itself, the violence, and so forth. I did go by myself once back to tour it – and a fellow I knew, who I covered as a community activist, his name was Joe Williams – I see him – who suggested I leave – he said it wasn't safe for me to be alone, walking, you know, in the streets. So I didn't cover the actual devastation, and the fighting, and the looting, and the violence. I covered the political side of it.</p>
<p>WW: Going – so you said you were part of the meetings and you were Mayor Cavanagh's shadow. Can you speak to the disagreements he had with Governor Romney, and especially President Johnson?</p>
<p>BF: Yes. I came across – and I gave it to Joel – by accident I came across an oral history that Cavanagh did for the Lyndon Johnson library in the 70's. They were doing oral histories for anybody that had a relationship with Lyndon Johnson. So they did Cavanagh. Now they weren't focused specifically on the riot, but as a result, about ten of those hundred pages deal with the riot. And he talks about the friction and the – yes, there was a lot of friction. One, you know, pure political, without egos – you know, Romney feeling that he's the governor of the state, and he perhaps should take the lead – Cavanagh feeling “this is my city, and I'm the chief executive officer.” And then you had political issues with, should you have the federal troops – is it too early to come in – what are the politics of it. So the federal government was, according to Cavanagh, and I tend to agree with him – is they were a little slow to react.</p>
<p>Some of it may have been based on waiting for a good assessment of the situation, or some of it may have been politics. I'm sure it was a combination of both.</p>
<p>So there's tremendous friction between Cavanagh and the powers to be, of when to send in the troops, and how, you know, and how quickly, and Cavanagh was of the opinion – send them right away. And that was the major disagreement. There were, you know, little ego issues between, that always happens, who conducts the press conference, and who's first, and all that.</p>
<p>WW: Can you speak to how Cavanagh himself handled the situation?</p>
<p>BF: I had covered Cavanagh, by that time, about four – three-four years. And what I noticed, is that this took a tremendous personal toll on Cavanagh. And the reason is, here was a mayor who was elected at, I think thirty-one or thirty-two years old, in '61 – the youngest mayor ever elected to the city until, I think, Kilpatrick came along – and he got national headlines. He was on the covers of major magazines for doing all the right things in Detroit. Integrating the police department, you know, being responsive to discrimination against blacks. He was doing everything right. He became president of the U.S. Conference of Mayors, and the National League of Cities, at the same time. Unheard of. He was a national figure. Matter a fact, a lot of people already started talking to him as a presidential candidate somewhere along the line. [coughs] – excuse me.</p>
<p>This took a personal toll. Basically, I've done everything right, and he ended up having not just a riot, but the worst riot in the country. I think forty-three died. And he had the worst fatality record, and that was the irony of it. And I don't think I saw him at ease - and I don't mean at ease, sitting back and just relaxing – but just at ease, throughout those days, and I don't think I ever saw a smile on his face for anything. I remember him coming back to the office, about twelve, one o'clock in the morning, and our office – not just the News, but the Free Press – was right down the hall. But I was the only one there. So he walked into his office and I walked in – he let me come in – we sat down. It wasn't to do a story, just to talk. And I could feel the pain. I could feel the pain. You know, we had a drink – he had a little bar in the back – and I could feel the pain. I don't think I ever saw him smile after the – for a long time after that.</p>
<p>WW: Wow. Can you speak to the time following the riots? So, the gradual – with the Cyrus Vance taking over – General Throckmorton taking over the National Guard, and federalizing the troops?</p>
<p>BF: I don't remember a lot of that. Only because the years have gone by. But the next steps that I recall is, after everything calmed down again, Cavanagh was instrumental, if not the lead character in creating New Detroit, which was – the first president, if I recall, was Joe Watson, you know, from the Hudson department stores, and the – the insistence of New Detroit that members could only be the heads of organizations – you know, staff people couldn't come – which was the right thing, because these are people making the decisions, and you don't have to worry about staff. And I don't remember some of what you're referring to, I don't think I could speak to it, 'cause I don't recall that. Fifty years. [laughter]</p>
<p>And he started the so-called reconstruction. The problem was, for him, his political strength has been ebbed, dramatically. One, you had the riot. He, unfortunately, had a lot of other political issues which had sapped his strength. Some of his own making. He had – he challenged Soapy Williams for the primary nomination for U.S. Senate – which hurt him badly, because the democrats felt it was Soapy Williams' turn – he should wait - but the party was very angry at him for challenging Soapy Williams. And he – he lost. And that sapped his political capitol. And then he had a messy – it's not of his own making, it's just one of those things – he had a terrible, messy personal divorce that became highly public, and messy, and so that sapped him. So unfortunately, a lot of things I think he could have and would have achieved, he couldn't because of – you know, he had all these other issues to deal with.</p>
<p>WW: How long did you stay in the city after 1967?</p>
<p>BF: Well, I – he did not run again in 1970 - funny story, how I learned that – but that's not – too long for you to tape – it's a cute story but it's a long one.</p>
<p>WW: Feel free to tell it.</p>
<p>BF: Well he and I had a good relationship, so that when he would announce something major, like a budget, he'd give it to me three-four days in advance, so I could study it. I couldn't use it until he's ready – so come his announcement, whether he's going to run for a third term – it was on a Tuesday he was going to announce, so I asked him if I could have his decision on the weekend, so I could write all the stories. He said “no, I can't give you this one.” And I said don't you trust me? He said “It's not that, I just [unintelligible].”</p>
<p>So I negotiated with him, that if I came to the Manoogian mansion, say, at three in the morning, that day – just so I have time to write, 'cause we're on deadline. So he agreed to that. So I drove done to the Manoogian mansion at three in the morning, and security opened it up and said “there you are,” and I get ready to write, and I take out a piece of paper, and it said something like “I will run again.” And just before I start, I see another piece of paper, which says “I will not run again.” [laughter]</p>
<p>So I said which is it? They said “I don't know!” I said, wake him up! “Yeah, we're going to wake up the mayor at two in the morning, or three in the morning.” I had to wait. He came down about seven o'clock with a big smile on his face. “So how's it going?” But I couldn't write anything - [laughter] – it was his practical joke.</p>
<p>So he didn't run again, and I covered Roman Gribbs, who just passed away, about two weeks ago, at 92, I believe – or 90, 92, I think he was 90 – and Nick Hood, who I covered, died about a week later at 92. And I covered him for a year. Gribbs – and then I quit, and went into Bill Milliken's office as administrative aide to Lieutenant Governor James Brickley who has passed away. So, to answer your question, I left the News in '70.</p>
<p>WW: And when you left the News, did you move to Lansing?</p>
<p>BF: I didn't move, but -</p>
<p>WW: Oh.</p>
<p>BF: Basically, my job was – we should have moved – I commuted almost daily, and that was a terrible – how I did that for four years, I don't know. We knew it was a political appointment and we didn't want to buy a house there and come back – terrible mistake. It was awful. Especially in the winters, you know – the drive. And we didn't have the kind of full expressways we have now, and it was awful – but. So I worked in Lansing for four years.</p>
<p>WW: When did your family leave the city? When did they move out, I mean?</p>
<p>BF: I think I want to say – Phil? - I want to say – I know that we left before Gribbs was - Gribbs was elected – because he offered me to become press secretary, and I was living in Oak Park, so I couldn't take it then – so that's one reason I took the Milliken job. Phil?</p>
<p>Woman's voice: Yeah?</p>
<p>BF: When did we move to Oak Park?</p>
<p>Woman's voice: I can't hear you. What?</p>
<p>BF: When did we move to Oak Park?</p>
<p>Woman's voice: Oh, Julie was three. So, forty-eight years ago -</p>
<p>BF: So '67. So the year must have been -</p>
<p>Woman's voice: '67.</p>
<p>BF: So one month later, before the riot, so I didn't know that.</p>
<p>WW: So your – you moved out before the riot happened?</p>
<p>BF: I guess -</p>
<p>Woman's voice: Wait a minute, no no -</p>
<p>BF: You said June of '67?</p>
<p>Woman's voice: No – I said Julie was – no – I remember -</p>
<p>BF: '65?</p>
<p>Woman's voice: I remember, in the apartment in Detroit, you were called down – the riots broke out when we were in Detroit. We moved in October when Julie was past three and a half.</p>
<p>BF: So '65. Yeah. So we were out -</p>
<p>Woman's voice: She was born in '64. She was born in '64 -</p>
<p>WW: So October of 1967?</p>
<p>BF: That's when -</p>
<p>Woman's voice: She was born in June of '64 -</p>
<p>BF: So she was three. I said '67.</p>
<p>Woman's voice: But we were still living in – because we moved to Oak Park in June – in October of '67.</p>
<p>WW: Okay. Why did you move? Did you move – were you planning on moving ahead of time?</p>
<p>BF: Schools -</p>
<p>Woman's voice: We were ready to buy a house. [laughter]</p>
<p>BF: You mean, we – why we moved to Oak Park?</p>
<p>WW: Yeah.</p>
<p>BF: Primarily school system. Yeah.</p>
<p>WW: Okay.</p>
<p>BF: Primarily school system.</p>
<p>Woman's voice: At that time -</p>
<p>BF: Oak Park at the top school system in the country – in the state, I believe -</p>
<p>WW: Okay -</p>
<p>Woman's voice: Well -</p>
<p>BF: Close to it.</p>
<p>Woman's voice: It was a very, very good school system.</p>
<p>BF: It was one of the best in the state.</p>
<p>Woman's voice: And -</p>
<p>BF: Yeah, so -</p>
<p>Woman's voice: Yeah.</p>
<p>WW: What are your impressions going back to the city now? Like seeing how – how do you believe the riot has affected the city? You talked about how it sapped the strength of Mayor Cavanagh -</p>
<p>BF: It sapped the strength of Mayor Cavanagh, and if caused – first of all, it accelerated white flight. It already began, with the building of expressways and shopping centers in the suburbs, so that made it easier for – unfortunately, for whites to leave the city, but the riot accelerated it. And so it sapped its – not only bad for the integration process, but it sapped its economic strength. Businesses moving out and white residents moving out. So I think it had terribly detrimental impact from that standpoint.</p>
<p>Then along came Coleman Young. And I happen to be an admirer of Coleman Young. But I also understood the tension he was creating, and I think unfairly – he was unfairly judged, with his comment about Eight Mile Road, which you've probably come across in your research. I think it was a bum rap – I don't think he meant “go rob the white people in the suburbs.” I think he meant there was a new sheriff in town, you know – And I – I happen to be a big admirer of Coleman Young – read his – couple biographies and I think he was a great hero, frankly – political hero in this country – taking on the unAmerican committee in Washington, and his union activities, and his army activities. But he – but – the perception of white people was that he didn't like white people, and so they left – which, again, I think was wrong, and unfair to Coleman Young and the city.</p>
<p>So there were a lot of issues which accelerated – I don't know, I don't think the riot was the beginning of it – I think the expressways and the shopping centers, things, started – the Davison Expressway, I think was the first one in the country. That helped – they went east/west, not north/south – but once you went north/south, it made it even quicker.</p>
<p>So I think that – the riot, obviously, accelerated the white flight, then came up wrong Coleman – who, Mayor Young, who I think, like I say, got a bum rap from the white community, especially the conservatives out in the suburbs, and I thought that was terribly unfair to him, and the city.</p>
<p>WW: You spoke about – you spoke about earlier, how it was unfortunate that your neighborhood in 12<sup>th</sup> Street became - went from being integrated to all black. How do you see – well, do you see that hampering the metropolitan Detroit now, given that the suburbs are primarily white and the city is primarily black?</p>
<p>BF: Yeah, I think so. Again, I – I'm a supporter of integrated – you know, I understand the value of living in an integrated, you know, community. And I think it – the segregation, if you will, between the communities now, I don't think helps either side. I don't know if we'll ever see that again, you know -</p>
<p>WW: The integration?</p>
<p>BF: In the city – in the city. I don't know – I don't know if we'll see that again. I think we see it somewhat in Southfield, I'm not an expert on that – you're much more – and we have it here in this community, you know. My subdivision now, taking a census, it's wonderful. I don't know if we're fifty/fifty now – I don't know. But it's certainly much more integrated than when I moved here thirty-five years ago – which is good!</p>
<p>And my kids went to integrated schools, and I thought they, you know, they – a lot of value in that, and made them better people, but I don't think – I don't see Detroit becoming a vibrant, integrated city along those lines again. Matter of fact, there seem to be a lot of complaints – I heard it just the other day. I heard a speaker on - on Detroit. That as well as Detroit and Midtown is doing, there seem to be a lot of complaints that the entrepreneurs are all white, and that the population of downtown is white, and not integrated. That they're young people, yes, but they're all white people. By the way, I don't know that to be true, 'cause I don't study it. I've heard those complaints. So I don't think – to answer your question, yes, I think there's tremendous value in the comprehensive integrated community.</p>
<p>WW: Is there anything else you'd like to share?</p>
<p>BF: No, you've done a good job. You've worn me out!</p>
<p>WW: Thank you very much for sitting down with me today.</p>
<p>BF: My pleasure, my pleasure. </p>
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Jewish Refugees, Shanghai, China
1967 riot - Detroit - Michigan
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Interviewer
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William Winkel
Interviewee
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Berl Falbaum
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<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/eWqUmsDMJ18" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>
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Berl Falbaum, April 21st, 2016
Description
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In this interview, Falbaum discusses his impressions when he first moved to Detroit, as well as his work covering Mayor Cavanagh's office during the summer of 1967.
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Detroit Historical Society
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06/07/2016
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Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
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en-US
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|3|0.0000000|0.0000000|osm
Schoolcraft and Telegraph
Redford Township
1967 riot—Detroit—Michigan
Detroit Community Members
Detroit News
General Throckmorton
Governor George Romney
Jewish Community
Mayor Coleman Young
Mayor Jerome Cavanagh
Mayor Roman Gribbs
New Detroit
Shanghai
STRESS
Twelfth Street
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https://detroit1967.detroithistorical.org/files/original/fff59707b51dd24e875b2d827226687a.JPG
599e1ebfc6d6e81ba7c958bc52135301
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Detroit 67: Looking Back to Move Forward
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Stories gathered to commemorate the summer of 1967 in Detroit.
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Detroit Historical Society
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Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
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en-us
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10/20/2019
Oral History
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Michael Kasky
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Michael Kasky was born September 19, 1943 in Detroit. He attended Wayne State University and worked for the city of Detroit during the summer of 1967.
Interviewer's Name
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William Winkel
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Grosse Pointe, MI
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03/24/2016
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00:53:16
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Julie Vandenboom
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5/24/2016
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<p>WW: Hello, my name is William Winkel. Today is March 24, 2016. I am in Grosse Point, Michigan, for the 1967 Oral History Project, interviewing Mr. Michael Kasky. Thank you for sitting down with me today.</p>
<p>MK: You're very welcome.</p>
<p>WW: Can you first start by telling me where and when you were born?</p>
<p>MK: I was born in Detroit, on September 1943.</p>
<p>WW: And what was your childhood like?</p>
<p>MK: Excellent. I mean, I lived – my parents lived in a neighborhood around Clairmount and Joy Road, and I went to elementary school at Brady. Did a year at Hutchens Junior High, then the family moved to northwest Detroit, where I lived on Woodingham between Puritan and McNichols. Transferred to Post Junior High, graduated from Mumford, and then started college.</p>
<p>WW: What did your parents do for a living?</p>
<p>MK: My father was a self-employed electrician and my mother was a housewife.</p>
<p>WW: Any significant experiences growing up in the northwest?</p>
<p>MK: Perhaps the one experience I'll share with you was – when I was going to Brady School, that neighborhood was starting to integrate, and the first African American person I really got to know was a girl my age, in my class, and we were taking clarinet lessons together. And the school could only afford one clarinet for the two – for the two of us. So we had our individual mouthpieces, of course, but we had to trade back and forth the clarinet. I lived with my parents in a one-bedroom apartment. And the first time I had to go to Laura Mosley's house to swap the clarinet, it was on Longfellow in Boston Edison. Her father was a dentist, and it was by far the wealthiest house I had ever been in in my entire life. So my first impression of African Americans was a very positive one – a group of people I would want to emulate.</p>
<p>WW: Was Mumford integrated when you went there?</p>
<p>MK: Very much so.</p>
<p>WW: Where did you go to college at?</p>
<p>MK: I went to Highland Park for two years, and I transferred to Wayne [State University].</p>
<p>WW: What did you study?</p>
<p>MK: My undergraduate degree is in history, with a minor in accounting. I have an MBA in industrial relations. I also have a J.D. - all three of my degrees are from Wayne.</p>
<p>WW: And what year did you go to university again?</p>
<p>MK: I started college in 1961, and graduated – received my bachelor's degree in 1965.</p>
<p>WW: Growing up in the city during the 1950s, did you notice any growing tensions? Or was the city harmonious?</p>
<p>MK: The city was very harmonious, in my experience. In fact, when I went to Hutchens Junior High – do you know where Hutchens is?</p>
<p>WW: Mmhmm.</p>
<p>MK: I would say the school was easily ninety-nine percent African American in terms of the student body, and I had no problems.</p>
<p>WW: You enjoyed your time in DPS?</p>
<p>MK: I had – I mean – I got a very, very good education, despite the fact that not all of my teachers were wonderful. A lot of them were retired on full pay. But I found to my amazement that when I started college, the work got easier. Mumford was an excellent, academically successful school. Only Cass Tech and Mumford had an arts and science program, which was an enriched program in those days.</p>
<p>However, I will tell you an interesting story. At Hutchens, the students were classified by intelligence scores, or something else that had been done on us. So I was in probably the top seventh grade class, at least this is what I was told. And even though the school was ninety nine percent black, my class was about fifty-fifty, white and black. And we had a math teacher who had a southern accent, and he kept going over the same material over and over again, until one of the black students, a young girl, spoke up and challenged him, saying, “We've already learned this material. Why are you trying to hold us back?” And when I transferred from Hutchens to Post – in fact, my principal transferred at the same time, to the same school – I discovered that I was a little behind and had to catch up. So clearly, I was being given a watered-down education at Hutchens. Whether that was the curricula fault, or the teachers' responsibility, I really don't know.</p>
<p>WW: Your time at Wayne State – was there – given the social movements of the day, was there any strong feeling either way on campus?</p>
<p>MK: I knew that some of the black students were expressing unhappiness. And it was difficult to say – or for me to determine – whether or not that was something that was very much held sincerely, or whether or not it was some kind of ploy to manipulate the professors into getting themselves out of work, or getting better grades.</p>
<p>WW: How would you describe your time at Wayne State?</p>
<p>MK: Much more enjoyable than high school. I was more mature; I had much better instructors. Wayne State had an incredibly good history faculty there, but I also had experiences like – I remember taking an accounting class – and that curriculum was pretty white at the time. And there was a black student in there, and the first day of class, the teacher asked everybody to get up and state their name, and he said his name was Blackberry, and the teacher looked and said, “Oh, we have a Blackberry in this class.” No – his name was Barry. And the teacher made a joke about a “blackberry.” But nobody seemed to take offense at that. Now, I don't think that would happen.</p>
<p>WW: Probably not.</p>
<p>MK: The other thing that I saw was, there was a history professor there – this was now getting towards – I can't remember if this was during my undergraduate or graduate courses – I did a lot of graduate studies in history also – thinking rather naively that, if I got a PhD in history, I'd be employable – which I realized was not true, and switched things. But a number of students – of black students – who were, by that time, self-identified as militants, came up to him, and demanded to know why he wasn't teaching any black intellectual history in his class on American intellectual history. And his response was, “When the blacks develop an intellectual history, I will teach it.”</p>
<p>WW: Wow.</p>
<p>MK: On the other hand, I had another history professor who was teaching nineteenth century European intellectual history, and the reading was all original sources – this was a graduate class – on economic theories of the nineteenth century – primarily English labor economists. And a couple of the African American students came up to him and said, “We're finding this reading too difficult. Can we use the textbook that they're using in Economics 101?” And this professor, who was very liberal, leaning very – had socialist values – had worked his way through college working at the Ford assembly line – turned to the students and said, “Of course. All you have to do is go to the Registrar's Office, tell them that you want to drop out of my class, and enroll in Economics 101.” And they stayed, and they struggled with the material, which was quite difficult. But that was the kinds of manipulation that one could see taking place at that time.</p>
<p>WW: What did you do after graduation?</p>
<p>MK: I had started working for the city of Detroit as a student technical assistant in early 1965, in what was then the Civil Service Commission. And I found the work challenging and pleasant, the people very, very bright. And I found that I had skills that allowed me to do this work, and so, after I graduated, I sat for the exam and became a professional with the Civil Service Commission. The title was then called Technical Aide. And because I was working in the Civil Service Commission, I did not know when I would take the test, and when I was suddenly told one morning, go into this room, we're giving you the test today, they did not use the existing test, but went into the archives, to a test that I had never seen before, to make sure that this was all objective and I had no unfair advantage.</p>
<p>And the thing was, that when I was growing up, my father struggled to make a living. And when I started college, I was looking for part-time work. A number of my friends' parents either could employee them in their businesses, or had friends who could employ them in their businesses. And I asked my father if he knew of anyone that he could recommend me to, and he was very apologetic, and said “I really don't know anyone – there's really – I can't do anything for you. I just don't have that kind of influence.”</p>
<p>So the fact that I was able to sit down and take the civil service test, with no regard whatsoever to who I knew, or what my economic status was, made a significant impression on me, and I became a very, very devoted advocate of the merit system.</p>
<p>WW: No doubt. Working in the city government in the mid-1960s, was there a feeling that there was tension in the air?</p>
<p>MK: Yes and no. I mean, our department had some African Americans working in it, including one senior staff member – a professional. And we were hiring more and more black people – I still have lifelong friends from the blacks I started working with in that period of time. John Eddings – I don't know if you know the name – he was a city Ombudsman for a number of years. He and I still have – get together every now and then. There was another woman who – a number of our people went on to either law school or medical school — they just used this as a way to earn money to go to professional school. I delayed that, primarily because I still remembered my earlier experience with my father not having any connections, and I felt that as someone who is Jewish, and being aware of the fact that there were a lot of the white-stocking law firms at the time did not employ professional Jews, that it probably was a fool's errand to go to law school at that time. I was better off working for the city, doing something that I enjoyed – something I felt I was being reasonably well paid for. But it was clear to me – it was not official policy, of course, but I was told through the grapevine at that time that there were departments that were Catholic, there were departments that were Protestant, and don't even think about going to work there. And that there were some departments that would employ African Americans and some that would not. And the Civil Service Commission was one that did have a cross-section of people. There was no – I saw no discrimination there in terms of hiring staff. Had black cohorts, Catholic cohorts, Protestant cohorts, so it was a very good group of people. But I had been told by other people, don't even think about transferring here or transferring there because they won't take you if you're Jewish.</p>
<p>WW: Wow.</p>
<p>This is before the Civil Rights Act, by the way. And I can tell you, for example, that there was pressure, for example, I remember one time I was assigned to a unit that hired white collar professionals – business-type professionals, industrial-type professionals, administrative professionals, and also recreation titles – people who worked for the recreation department or the zoo. And one day the head of the recruitment division came in and said, “We're not passing enough black people – revise the exam and put more basketball questions on it.” Which showed the level of his sophistication.</p>
<p>A lot of people thought that I was a Communist. And I'd gone to Wayne, and that was considered, you know, by people who were older, to be a hotbed of radical studies, and I can remember one example when they were interviewing a recreation instructor, which is a professional title – one required a degree to have this job – and a woman came in, and I was told to come in and take notes. I worked for one of the few senior professional women at the time, and she was interviewing – and she was white, Protestant – and she was interviewing with another woman from the recreation department who was a very high senior-level person – and I was told that my job was to take notes and say nothing, unless it was imperative. Unless it was imperative. And the applicant we were interviewing was a woman who had worked her way through university – Wayne State – in the post office. One could tell that she came from a lower middle-class background, was very, very nervous, and uncomfortable in the interview. And at one point, I heard her say, “I believe in the necessity of perpetual revolution.” And I saw the two senior women's pens starting - moving furiously – and I thought, this was inconsistent. So I turned to the lady, and said, “Have you taken any philosophy courses?” And she said, “Oh, yes!” So I said – thinking to myself, well I can't ask her about Marx, that's too obvious – so I asked her about Hegel, because Marx relied on Hegel's structure. So I asked her what she thought of Hegel, and she said, “No, I don't like him, I don't care for him, I think he was wrong.” So I went back to Rousseau, and asked her what she thought about Rousseau, and she said a similar thing. So then I asked her about Voltaire, and she said, “Oh, Voltaire is my favorite philosopher. He really sums up what I want to be.” I said, “Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Voltaire say he believed in the necessity of perpetual <em>ev</em>olution?” And she said, “Yes, isn't that what I said?” And I said, “No, you said, ‘perpetual <em>rev</em>olution.’” And she said, “Oh my god, I apologize! I'm so nervous!” At which point I stopped talking. And the next day I was summoned into the division head and told if I wanted to chit-chat about philosophy, to do it on my own time. They could not see what I was doing, or why I was doing it.</p>
<p>But again, that led to my being seen as somewhat suspect. It never affected my career, but the older staff people did have – were wary of my background and my politics.</p>
<p>WW: Wow. Before we move on to 1967, are there any other stories you'd like to tell from your early years in the civil service?</p>
<p>MK: Well I'll tell you one story, and I can't remember when this occurred, but the structure of the office was such that the director and deputy director of recruitment had glass-partitioned offices right off the waiting area for people being interviewed. And the director at that time – I can't speak for his earlier accomplishments, because I don't know about them – but at this stage of his life, he tended to imbibe a great deal, at lunch time, and we all knew not to bother him after lunch. And I walked out there, and I was talking to an applicant, and I heard him on the phone, saying, in a very, very loud voice, “If I want a gardener, I'll hire a Tony. If I want a garbage man, I'll hire a nigger.” This was overheard by everybody in that waiting area. So that told me, in no uncertain terms, that once he lost his controls over his speech – his censors – that those were his attitudes.</p>
<p>WW: That's sad. Where were you living in 1967?</p>
<p>MK: In 1967 I was still living in Woodingham, with my parents.</p>
<p>WW: And how old were you?</p>
<p>MK: In 1967, in July, I was 23.</p>
<p>WW: Twenty-three? How did you first hear about what was going on that Sunday morning, Saturday night?</p>
<p>MK: Well, the interesting thing was, I had – I had gone to Amherst, Massachusetts, just before the riot broke out, to – I had been offered a fellowship to get a PhD in history. And I heard on the news what was happening. One of the interesting things was, after ten o'clock – I learned this later so we won't even go into it – it's not relevant – but I found out about it, and I called the office and said, do you need me back? And they said “Get on a plane and be back as quick as you possibly can.”</p>
<p>So I was flying a commuter flight and when we took off from Buffalo, I realized there was only one other passenger on the plane beside me. And as I looked out the window as we went into our landing pattern over Detroit, I could clearly see the outlines of Dexter, Linwood, and Twelfth Street and Grand River – that was a unique geography – all lit up in flames. And I was very, very sorry I didn't have a camera with me at the time. But that told me how serious this was and there also had been a disturbance on the east side the year before that I knew of, so I landed, and I had left my car at the time with my father, and asked him to pick me up. And I never found out why he did this, but instead of driving back from the airport on the Southfield Freeway to Six Mile Road, which would have been a route that avoided the riot area, he decided to go through downtown. And we were stopped by a very, very nervous National Guardsman, who pointed the business end of his M-1 rifle at me and my father, and fortunately I had a) white skin, and b) City of Detroit identification. But that was a little scary also. And then I went into work the next day and I was told I would be lent for the time being to a unit called Riot Intelligence, which I had never heard of before.</p>
<p>WW: What day did you get back?</p>
<p>MK: It was probably a Monday, but I – I'm not certain, that's a long time ago.</p>
<p>WW: So what was your work on the Riot Intelligence Committee?</p>
<p>MK: Primarily, handling concerns of various businesspeople and utilities in the City of Detroit. For example, I got a call from a radio station or television station, it was on East Jefferson near Mt. Elliot. And they were having a problem getting [Detroit] Edison to come out and do some work for them. So I called up Edison and was able to persuade them that there were very slight risks and if they wanted, I would get police protection for them. So I was doing just basic – I wasn't getting involved with the community or anything like that, I was just basically trying to deal with short-term problems that were arising as a result of the fear and violence in the city.</p>
<p>WW: What was the mood behind the scenes? Was there a calm to the work, or was it anxious work?</p>
<p>MK: Well, the head of the department was a man named Malcolm Dade, who was very, very powerful in the black community, and his number one was a woman named Katherine Edwards, who was a very vivacious white woman who also had a great deal of political clout. And they were the ones who, when I dealt with them, were always a very calm presence. So I didn't really sense anything that was panic – I mean I still was able – I felt safe taking either – I can't remember which days I drove and which days I took the bus downtown – but I never felt like I was in any danger.</p>
<p>And I think I told you over the phone, the story that on one occasion, I was asked to either pick up or deliver some papers to the police department. And I offered to just walk over from the City County Building, and they said, “No, it's too dangerous.” And told me that a police car would pull up to the building and I should take a ride in that car. And it was an older, white police officer who was driving, and we were driving northeast on Gratiot. And as he went to make the turn to go east on Clinton, there was a young black man walking across Clinton, minding his own business, not projecting any harm, or any threat to anyone, and the police officer floored the car, and aimed at him. Now whether he was just trying to scare him, or whether he was trying to actually hit him, I can't say. Fortunately, the young man was nimble enough to jump out of the way.</p>
<p>WW: Did the cop say anything, or no?</p>
<p>MK: I can't recall if he said anything or not. I have an impression that he may have grinned, or said something, but I can't be certain of that. Again, it was just too long ago.</p>
<p>WW: In working with the police department during that week, was there – was that the common attitude?</p>
<p>MK: I didn't really deal with them on a one-to-one basis. I did notice that they had the khaki uniform police cadets surrounding police headquarters, each holding a rifle in their hands, and I later learned that there were police snipers on the roof. I did not know it at the time. But because the Civil Service Commission only dealt with civilian employees - the police department had their own employment section for sworn officers – I had very few interactions with the police department.</p>
<p>WW: Who else made up the Riot Intelligence Committee that you worked on? Was there various agencies?</p>
<p>MK: I really don't know. I know that Malcolm Dade and Katie Edwards were the two people I dealt with. There was probably a board, that I never had any access to. And basically I just stayed – other than that one experience with the police department – I just basically worked in the office and worked on the telephone.</p>
<p>WW: You spoke about driving home from work or taking the bus. What was the atmosphere of the city on your commutes to work and back home?</p>
<p>MK: There was a certain tension, but where I lived – on Woodingham, between Puritan and Six Mile – the closest thing that happened was the torching of a furniture store on Livernois just north of Fenkell. And that was at least three quarters of a mile, if not farther, from my house. So I didn't feel any real threat. I mean, my neighborhood was thoroughly integrated at that time, but I perceived no threat, or people were still walking along the street, and I think people had a feeling of safety. I did not see any military in my neighborhood. I mean, I had friends – I had a friend who lived on Clairmount, between Twelfth Street and Hamilton, who woke up one morning to find a tank parked on his front lawn.</p>
<p>WW: Working in the city government, what was the mood when the National Guard came in, and then when the Army came in?</p>
<p>MK: We felt that that was probably a positive. Again, I saw the nervousness of that one National Guardsman who stopped my father and I, so when I saw them bringing in the 82<sup>nd</sup> Airborne, I understood immediately why they needed people who were more professional, and who were not likely to – pardon – no pun intended – trigger an incident that would create more violence. But we – the black employees and the white employees in the Civil Service Commission continued to work together. I saw no animosity, no self-segregation at that point in time. Everybody seemed to recognize that we all knew each other, we all trusted each other, we were all professionals, and we just continued to do the best we could.</p>
<p>WW: And you stayed on the Intelligence Committee until the end of the disturbance?</p>
<p>MK: I think I was there for a week. I remember it was the only time I ever got paid double-time for working in my entire career with the city. I worked on a Sunday. But by Monday everything had calmed down to the point where I could go back to Civil Service.</p>
<p>WW: What was the mood of the city following the disturbance?</p>
<p>MK: People were really reluctant to talk about it. I think that – at the time I was taking graduate level classes at Wayne – and I could see some hesitancy there for – and a little bit of self-segregation. But I didn't see any threats. I didn't see any violence. And of course I can't remember if the DRUM movement, the Dodge Revolutionary Union Movement, started before or after the riot, but I certainly knew of its presence on Wayne's campus, and I understood what they were trying to accomplish.</p>
<p>WW: Did you have any more interaction with DRUM, or the League of Revolutionary Black Workers?</p>
<p>MK: I never had any interactions with DRUM. There were not people who sought me out, or I sought them out.</p>
<p>WW: Was there a sense in the behind-the-scenes in the city government that we need to move past what happened?</p>
<p>MK: Very definitely. I mean, I'll give you one example that happened during that period of time. As I told you, my father was an electrician. And he did a lot of work for people who owned income properties in the city. A lot of what was then the inner city. And I would occasionally work with him, and help him. And I saw a lot of damage that had been done by people who lived in these rental properties and I got a sense from the owners, whom I met, that they were not malicious people or evil people, but they were simply just trying to make a reasonable rate of return on their property. And the damages that I saw were extensive, and very expensive, and they couldn't really charge rents that would give them enough cushion to continually repay for the kinds of damage that were done to these units.</p>
<p>And I remember, I was taking an Urban Sociology class at the time, and people were talking about how the landlords were just making scads and scads of money off the backs of poor inner-city residents, and I spoke up to say that was not my experience. That these people were very – the landlords were – that I dealt with were not extensive, they owned maybe two or three units – or houses – and they were trying as hard as they could to provide a reasonable living place for their tenants, and it was costing them a great deal of money every time somebody started doing damage to the building. And I said, you know, these people are not making a great deal of money. It's a very thin margin of revenue, and if they're really constrained, and this continues, they're just going to abandon the property and walk away. At which point I was greeted with howls of laughter. They say, “Oh no, these people are making so much money – obscene amounts of money – that this will never happen.” Unfortunately, history proved me right.</p>
<p>WW: How did the city – or did you have any – did you have any interaction with city officials that were dealing with the exodus – that was leaving the city after the riots?</p>
<p>MK: No.</p>
<p>WW: Mm kay. In the years following 1967 – lost my train of thought, sorry.</p>
<p>MK: Let me give you some more information.</p>
<p>WW: Okay, sorry about that.</p>
<p>MK: The woman for whom I started working as a professional – she and I bonded. And her – she had a business background and at that time I had at least a minor in business, and I was able to understand and be able to do the work necessary for the people in the city who were accountants and auditors and budget analysts and tax assessors, and people in those kinds of professions. So my talents were specialized enough that I stayed in that area, and other people got involved with the departments that were more socially oriented.</p>
<p>WW: You continued your work with the city government and Civil Service after the Civil Rights Act was enacted.</p>
<p>MK: Yes.</p>
<p>WW: Did that change the culture that was dominating the civil service at that time?</p>
<p>MK: Yes. Until the Civil Rights Act was passed, occupations were classified male and/or female. For example, a bus driver had to be a male. The position – hiring position professionals – for professionals – was technical aide male, was a specialty, or technical aide female was a specialty. And now that had to come to an end. It could no longer classify based on gender, unless it was a job like a locker room attendant or a correctional officer at the Detroit House of Correction. Those were the only exceptions. So there was some resistance at the senior levels to this, because they could no longer say. “I insist on a man,” or, “I insist on a woman.” And Jackie had a lot of experience with that, that – it's being written down right now – but I can remember the same head of recruitment, who had got – who had expressed those comments when he was drunk one afternoon – came into my office one day. My boss was at lunch – and he turned to me and said, “Too many damn women are passing the technical aide exam. Put a mechanical comprehension section on the test.” And I looked at him and said, “I don't understand the relationship of mechanical comprehension to what this test – for the positions this test is designed for.” And he looked at me and says, “Kasky, if you don't want to do it, just walk out the door now.” And much to my amusement, and much to his despair, his stereotype proved wrong, and the passing grades of females actually increased with that mechanical comprehension test! And I realized – because I was directly involved with hiring professionals – entry level professionals – that the quality – the average quality of the female applicant was far superior to the average quality of the male candidate, not for any gender-related reasons, but the fact was they had limited opportunities. Men had access to jobs in the corporate world that women couldn't access, and if they didn't want to go into teaching or something like that, government was really one of the few places where they could access. So we hired a number – a large number – a high percentage of very, very talented and high-quality women who I certainly enjoyed with – for the rest of my career.</p>
<p>WW: What was the mood of the city in the – moving into the 1970's. Trying to put '67 behind them, with the renaissance city and New Detroit?</p>
<p>MK: I could see that those attempts were taking place – I, again, did not have any direct involvement with them. But one of the things that the Civil Service Commission did was, we rotated our employees. And many of them were assigned to work in hiring activities involved with the poverty program – started out as TAAP – Total Action Against Poverty – and then became the Mayor's Community Commission for Human Resources Development. And those were not really jobs anyone looked forward to, because you worked in the inner city in very dingy quarters, and somehow I was saved by that. Again, I think it was my unique skill set, that they – when they came to my boss and said, “It's time for Kasky to rotate,” she said, “Over my dead body,” or something like that because when she moved, I moved, because she had a reputation as – a well-earned reputation, and a well-merited reputation because she had suffered enormous discrimination in her career, being a woman. So people – she had – she wouldn't take much guff, and dealt it out, so the administration did not want to ruffle her feathers, so she protected me for many, many years, and then there was a position that opened up in the Model Neighborhood Agency in 1969, where they needed an auditor to enforce the government requirement that no contractor's – no private sector contractor's total compensation could exceed that of a comparable government worker. So I went out to the department in 1969 and at the time, we were housed in the Architect's Building, in the middle of the then Cass Corridor, and because I was from a management department, and this was a socially conscious department, I was kind of looked at as the enemy, and there was a story that I heard from a number of people that one woman would hide under her desk whenever she saw me coming, because I was considered part of the running – I was a running dog of management.</p>
<p>But a very interesting thing happened while I was there. There was a program, a recreation department program, called the Metropolitan Arts Complex, run by an African American woman who had come from the recreation department. And her reputation was enhanced by the fact that her husband, who had been a professional boxer, once punched out the director of the Model Neighborhood Agency, after which he always had two police officers guarding him. Well I – that was one of the departments I had to audit. And I went out there one morning and met with the woman, and I did just what I normally did. I acted exactly as I normally acted. And I came back that afternoon, and all of a sudden the PA system announced, and saying “there's going to be a staff meeting. Everybody must come. Everybody must come to the meeting.” And the director, Sylvester Angel, who was African American, came in and said, “I've just gotten a very serious – I've had a very long, angry call from the head of the Metropolitan Arts Complex.” And I'm thinking, okay, my career is now going up in smoke. And he – Sylvester Angel continued and said that, “She said, "In all of her dealings with this department, she's only dealt with one person who dealt with her as a true professional, and that's Mr. Kasky sitting over there.”</p>
<p>Well, you know, there were gasps all among the room, but I realized then, that my presumption was correct – that if I treated people with respect and focused on work-related matters, that that was the way to succeed in government – that I was not bigoted, they were not bigoted, and as long as they felt that I was treating them with the respect due them, and I wasn't trying to screw them, that we could get along just fine. And that was later demonstrated when I finished that assignment in 1973, I had been promoted twice and came back as a principal and headed a unit. I was assigned a black female employee. There were a number of young people – nobody ever started out what was then called classification, but after a few years they were all rotated in there. And she came to work for me and there was a black male who went to work for another principal, down the hall. And again, I just explained things to her, and showed her what to do that would work, what wouldn't work, what her job was, and answered all of her questions. And when it came time for me to leave the city, at my farewell lunch, a number of black employees came up to me and thanked me for all I had done for them.</p>
<p>And I said, “Well, you know, I don't quite understand because you never worked directly for me.” And what they said was, “You don't understand. What you taught Cathy, she in turn, turned around and taught to us,” because their white supervisors were not teaching them what I was teaching her.</p>
<p>WW: It's amazing. What – you spoke about leaving the city – leaving the civil service. What year did you leave the city and the service?</p>
<p>MK: I left in 1976.</p>
<p>WW: Was there a particular reason why you left?</p>
<p>MK: Let's go off the record.</p>
<p><break in recording></p>
<p>WW: The next set of questions will be about – talking about your role in the Jewish community. When you first moved in to your neighborhood, was your neighborhood primarily Jewish?</p>
<p>MK: The neighborhood that I grew up – which is the same neighborhood where Jackie grew up – we went to the same elementary school, the same high school – was predominantly Jewish, yes.</p>
<p>WW: As – as you grew up, did more of the community – you said it became integrated. Did most of the Jewish community leave the city?</p>
<p>MK: It started off by moving to the northwest. This was a time – this is something that I do in my tours – I explain that starting in the 1910's, 1920's, the population of the city of Detroit more than doubled every ten years. Strong, strong pressures for housing. A lot of housing was being built, and the Jewish neighborhood – the original Jewish neighborhood, on Hastings Street, was built in the 1830s and 1840s – wooden clapboard houses, slapped together to house the German immigrants who were coming to Detroit – the Jewish immigrants came to Detroit in the 1830s and 1840s to settle – really, the first Jews to settle in Detroit and form a community spoke German, it was only natural that they would choose to live in the German-speaking neighborhoods, and there were very little friction, from what I can tell.</p>
<p>But as the neighbors – as the people here accustomed themselves to living in America, and started to prosper, they started looking for better housing, and they moved north along the Hastings corridor. The people who did very, very well went into business, primarily the clothing business – and the Civil War came and they were in the uniform business – started living in Piety Hill. They had beautiful homes along Woodward and the rest of the Jewish neighborhoods started moving north along Hastings and streets parallel to it.</p>
<p>Now at this time – so when the blacks started to come to Detroit – they quickly learned that the people who would hire them, and the people who did not threaten them, was the Jewish community. And if you read Thomas Sugrue’s work – I don't know if you've ever read that – he confirms that point. So they tended to follow the Jews, because they were a), familiar with the neighborhoods and b), felt safe moving there. The Jews might not be happy about it; the Jews might decide to move on to greener pastures; but they would not employ the same kind of violence that was taking place in other parts of the city – you know, like Ossian Sweet's experience – and Jackie's father represented black people who were trying to move into the Grand River Grand Boulevard neighborhood, and restrictive covenants were enforced, and that kind of thing.</p>
<p>So that was the progression. And one of the strongest characteristics of the Jewish community is an emphasis on education. And anything that would water down, or threaten the quality of education is a reason for moving out of the neighborhood. Plus, these were people who had grown up at a time when Jewish kids were routinely harassed by non-Jewish kids living in the neighborhood, whether they were black or white, Irish, Polish – it was common knowledge that Jewish kids learned to run very fast to avoid them. So, given these apprehensions, given the fact that they had sufficient money to move into better neighborhoods, they chose to do so, and the black population followed them, because they wanted the buildings. And unlike, for example, the Catholic denomination, where people are assigned to a parish, synagogues are congregationally based. There's no hierarchy. So people felt very comfortable moving and for the Orthodox, who tended to walk to synagogue, they had enough money to sell their buildings primarily to black churches, and then rebuild as the community progressed in its northwestern progression.</p>
<p>And a historical fact that you might not know, was the first building bought by a congregation in Detroit to be a synagogue was actually bought from a black church.</p>
<p>WW: Ah, I didn't know that. You spoke about the limitations on Jewish employment in the city government before the Civil Rights Act.</p>
<p>MK: Yes.</p>
<p>WW: Was that widespread throughout the city in the early 1960s and 1950s?</p>
<p>MK: There were certain departments I knew I should not apply with. The water department was one; budget was another – they had a token Jew in budget – but I knew – first, I really liked the work I was doing in the civil service commission, but most of the Jews who worked for the city worked in the social action programs – housing, model neighborhood, the poverty program, community relations, those departments.</p>
<p>WW: Thank you for that. To tidy this up, what are your feelings on the city today? How do you think it has progressed since 1967?</p>
<p>MK: Well, the city has undergone some terrible experiences. I can tell you, with my experience working at the model neighborhood program – I don't know how much you know about how it functioned – but it tried to – it was an experiment in the Carter administration, to see whether or not empowering the people of poverty-stricken neighborhoods to make their own decisions, would lead to better and more acceptable decisions. And twenty million dollars a year was assigned to these programs. And I was then – well, I audited every department, so I certainly saw and experienced what was going on. And while it was a wonderful idea – this is my personal opinion – to – for the people to identify and prioritize their concerns and their needs, it was a mistake, in hindsight, to also give them the authority to decide how they were going to be implemented. I saw a lot of people who could talk a good talk but really didn't have any substance getting programs and running them into the ground, or stealing the money, absconding with it. So this is not race-based, it's experience-based, but you just can't come from being a community activist and suddenly being in charge of a department where you don't know – or business, what's involved. And they were never given that transition. So as I saw in more and more of the city, administration being given to people, who lacked experience. Now, I was very, very impressed with Coleman Young. And to this day, when someone says Coleman Young ruined the city, I strongly disagree. Coleman Young was not a racist. He knew how to employ racist language to inspire and manage the black community. But he, personally, was not a racist. Jackie and I worked on his campaigns every year – his fundraisers. And we had a lot of respect for the man, and he did things that no white mayor could ever have accomplished, such as when he became mayor, there were three employees assigned to every garbage truck. He put through – with James Watts, his black, union-experienced director of public works – they implemented the one-man packer, firing two thirds of the predominantly black garbage men. I can't imagine a white person having been able to get away with that at that time, but Coleman Young was able to accomplish that. So it – I have the greatest amount of respect for him. I saw other mayors follow him, who didn't have the respect of city employees. They thought that anybody who worked for – they thought the government and city government was the employer of last resort. They didn't realize what high-caliber, well-educated people we had – tended to disregard the advice we gave them to the city's disadvantage, and they employed people. Dennis Archer was certainly one of them – who made maybe one or two good appointments but some of the appointments he made were just terrible. Turn this off.</p>
<p>[break in recording]</p>
<p>WW: Thank you very much for sitting down with me today and for taking time out of your schedule.</p>
<p>MK: You're very, very welcome. I enjoyed this.</p>
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
William Winkel
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Michael Kasky
Video
A link to the video
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/bTt5h-vNzsI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Michael Kasky, March 24th, 2016
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview, Kasky discusses growing up in Detroit, his time at Wayne State University and his employment with the city of Detroit during the summer of 1967 and during the period immediately after.
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Date
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05/26/2016
Rights
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Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Language
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en-US
1967 riot—Detroit—Michigan
Civil Rights Movement
Civil Service
Detroit City Government
Detroit Police Department
Government
Jewish Community
Mayor Coleman Young
Public Servant
Tanks
-
https://detroit1967.detroithistorical.org/files/original/417a09168e24a0d4ab4e5b1e4a6568f2.JPG
dfbae43c234129fee1d70da918af78e2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Detroit 67: Looking Back to Move Forward
Subject
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Stories gathered to commemorate the summer of 1967 in Detroit.
Publisher
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Detroit Historical Society
Rights
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Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Language
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en-us
Date
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10/20/2019
Oral History
An audio or video resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Narrator/Interviewee's Name
The current first and last name of the person speaking or being interviewed.
Jackie DeYoung
Brief Biography
A short biography of the Interviewee
Jackie DeYoung was born in Detroit, MI where she lived during the 1967 disturbance. DeYoung spent 35 years with the Detroit Police Department. She currently lives in Detroit, MI.
Interviewer's Name
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Bree Boettner
Interview Place
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Grosse Pointe
Date
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04/05/2016
Interview Length
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00:46:50
Transcriptionist
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Danail Gantchev
Transcription Date
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5/11/2016
Transcription
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<p>BB: This is Bree Boettner with the Detroit 1967 Oral History Project. I am sitting down with Jackie DeYoung today at her home in Grosse Pointe. Thank you Jackie for sitting down with us today.</p>
<p>JD: Oh you’re welcome.</p>
<p>BB: If you could start by telling me when and where you were born.</p>
<p>JD: I was born in Detroit at the old Providence Hospital on East Grand Boulevard. At the time my parents lived at 3010 West Chicago Boulevard. It was an apartment building between Wildemere and Lawton.</p>
<p>BB: Did you have any siblings?</p>
<p>JD: No, I’m an only child.</p>
<p>BB: And what did your parents do?</p>
<p>JD: My father was an attorney. My father was born in Detroit in 1904 in the middle of the Eastern Market on St. Antoine and Winder. My mother was born in New York, came through Cleveland, and settled here. My father went through Detroit Public Schools. He went to the Bishop School in the Eastern Market area. Then he went to what was Central High School, which is now on the campus – well it was Forest — what is it called — Old Main. That was Central High School and my dad went there. When he graduated, which must have been about 1918 or 1920, it became part of Wayne, which wasn’t a state university at the time. So he went to Law school there, same building.</p>
<p>BB: Okay, wow.</p>
<p>JD: You did not have to go through [an] undergraduate degree at that time; you just went to law school. So he graduated before he was able to become a member of the bar. He wasn’t twenty-one yet.</p>
<p>BB: Oh wow, high achiever. Awesome, okay. Just to preface your parents and you lived on Chicago?</p>
<p>JD: Yes, in an apartment building.</p>
<p>BB: Explain your childhood growing and living in the Detroit area.</p>
<p>JD: Well, it was a very good childhood. My mother and I – my mother didn’t drive until much later. She learned to drive probably when I was in school, [when I was] five, six, seven. So we took buses everywhere. All over downtown, wherever we had to go. You could walk anywhere. We had accessible shopping on Dexter Avenue. It was a very easy childhood. There were very few security fears, or crime, or anything like that.</p>
<p>BB: Do you remember where you went to school in the area?</p>
<p>JD: I went to Brady School.</p>
<p>BB: For all grades or?</p>
<p>JD: I went there until third grade. Then we moved to Manor and Seven Mile, which is on the northwest side, near Meyers Road. After that I went to McDowell school to the eighth grade. And then I went to Mumford High School through graduation. At the time the school system had started an advanced, sort of like an AP program, but they were only running it at Cass Tech. My mother and a group of parents who were active in the PTA did not want us taking the bus down to Cass every day. So they petitioned the school board, and the board opened the program at Mumford because there were so many students in the neighborhood who would have qualified for it.</p>
<p>BB: What year did you graduate from high school?</p>
<p>JD: 1961 I graduated from Mumford.</p>
<p>BB: And was your school integrated? Was it strictly white?</p>
<p>JD: My grade school was very integrated, as was Mumford. The black population at the time lived closer to Eight Mile, but they lived on the same streets we did. Manor, Monte Vista, just further west toward Eight Mile North.</p>
<p>BB: What’d you do after high school?</p>
<p>JD: Then I went to the University of Michigan for four years. I graduated. I came home and I was living with my parents on Manor.</p>
<p>BB: Okay.</p>
<p>JD: I got a job with the city of Detroit, which was a little interesting because at the time, I don’t know if you know this, they had a general entry level job for college graduates called Technical Aid. And at the time I applied, they were divided into Technical Aid Male and Technical Aid Female. The only difference was you had to pass the same test, but the females had to be able to type forty-five words a minute. So the first time I took the test I failed it because I can’t type. [Laughter] By the time I went to take it three months later when I was eligible again, they had taken away that requirement because the Civil Rights movement had started and they were trying to equalize all of the positions. Then I got the job with the city. I had worked for Wayne County several summers while I was in college. They hired me when I graduated, so I had a job with Wayne County until I got the job with the city.</p>
<p>BB: What’d you do with Wayne County?</p>
<p>JD: Oh, I had a number of different jobs. I worked for the road commission for a long time and in the summer I would relieve people in the accounting division who wanted to go on vacation. So they would teach me their job. I would do it for two weeks and then somebody else would teach me their job and I’d do that. That’s how I spent my summer.</p>
<p>BB: Wow, the Jackie-of-all-trades.</p>
<p>JD: Yeah, exactly. [Laughter]</p>
<p>BB: Interesting.</p>
<p>JD: I learned about a lot of Wayne County systems by doing that: the parks, and the airport, and everything that the county ran, highways.</p>
<p>BB: Tell me about your city position. What’d you do for the city of Detroit?</p>
<p>JD: Well, when I was hired in August of 1966, I was assigned to the housing department. I was sent to a field office on Grand River and Grand Boulevard. And we were relocating families from the right-of-way of the Jeffries and the Fisher freeways which were just being built.</p>
<p>BB: That’s right. Okay.</p>
<p>JD: I liked the job, but it involved a lot of social work. My parents were really concerned because I was so involved with some of the families that I was trying to relocate, that I’d be going down to the area at night and taking them food, and money, and blankets, and things they didn’t have. So they said you’ve got to find something else. The other thing was that all of the Edison people, the utility peoples, were all out there in pairs. And I was out there by myself, which my parents didn’t think was real safe. Although, I must say, all the people I worked with did a good job at protecting me, but there were a couple of minor incidents. I went down to the civil service commission and said I’d really like a transfer. They sent me to a couple of different offices. In February of ‘67, the police department had formed a research and development unit. Maybe sometime in ’65; it was pretty new. They were putting personnel in it. They were looking for people. They absolutely did not want a woman. They told me that.</p>
<p>BB: Really? How’d you get the job?</p>
<p>JD: Well, They got desperate [laughter].They had to have somebody. It was a little awkward at first because I say that I worked in the men’s locker room for 35 years. The atmosphere before civil rights and sexual harassment was just incredible. I mean I know young women like yourself find it hard to believe what some of us went through, but the office reported directly to the deputy superintendent of police. He was as much a male chauvinist as the rest of them, but they needed the help badly. And he knew I was going to Wayne at night to get a master’s. He was going to get his bachelor’s degree. And I think in a way he used to send me out to pick up his books or assignments and things like that.</p>
<p>BB: (laughing) Oh goodness.</p>
<p>JD: So I had a lot of interesting assignments at the beginning. The office answered his—it was a commissioner at the time, commissioner of police—all of his correspondence. So it could be very serious from a citizen complaining about something, to the commissioner saying to me, “Write my mother a Christmas letter.”</p>
<p>BB: Gotcha.</p>
<p>JD: We also – the police department operates on the system of general orders that are written. We wrote all those orders and kept track of them, and so forth. Also, at that time, the federal government began the Office of Law Enforcement Assistance and began giving out federal grants to police departments, and we wrote those grant applications. Detroit was probably one of the first five in the country to receive one if I recall correctly. We had people coming in from the police executive research forum and other research organizations. Detroit was a big city at the time. We had a fairly large force. I was once asked to figure out how many blacks were on the job and I think at the time I did it, it was about five percent of the force.</p>
<p>BB: Okay, because at one time, if I remember correctly, there was almost what, 5,300 police officers?</p>
<p>JD: Yes, exactly.</p>
<p>BB: Okay.</p>
<p>JD: And we were pretty modern. We had the first traffic lights here. We had a lot of firsts. There was interest in the department. I also did things like, made center pieces for the Women Who Work Luncheon when some woman from the women’s division was being honored.</p>
<p>BB: Aww.</p>
<p>JD: Things, little tasks. I never knew what the job was going to be on any given day, but it was very interesting. So I was able to learn a lot about how the department operated. You know, I certainly knew all of its rules and regulations because I wrote a lot of them. [Laughter] That’s about it.</p>
<p>BB: At that time in ‘67, you know ’64 when you received this position, how was the city? Had it changed from what you had perceived it when you were child growing up? Had it changed in any way beyond you know the civil rights movement? How was the feeling?</p>
<p>JD: People were starting to move out to suburbs, but not for any particular reason other than you could get a newer house. Some of the jobs were moving. They weren’t all downtown anymore. But, it was pretty much the same city that I grew up in, you know I don’t recall. Our neighborhood started to change a little bit. When we bought our house in 1952 on Manor, my father had to break a restrictive covenant that didn’t allow Jews. We were a Jewish family. Those were outlawed by the Supreme Court subsequently. My father had a case of one of his clients, Orsel McGhee, who lived on Seebaldt Street, who wanted to buy a house on Seebaldt. And my father broke a restricted covenant at that time to get him the house. That case became combined with the cases that Thurgood Marshall eventually argued before the Supreme Court that struck down those restrictive covenants. They’re still in deeds but they can’t be enforced.</p>
<p>BB: Wow, I never knew that. That’s amazing. Leading up to—</p>
<p>JD: So we were the first Jewish family or maybe the second Jewish family on our block.</p>
<p>BB: As I’ve done this project I have not heard of that. That’s amazing. Kudos to your father (laughing). So leading up to the summer of 1967, obviously there’s reports of more civil unrest. How did you perceive that summer and then how did you learn about the event of the blind pig?</p>
<p>JD: Well, I got a call on Sunday night. Must have be what, July 23, from my office, saying there’s been some disturbances. They weren’t sure whether they wanted me to come into work on Monday or not, but they would send a car because I took the bus to work. Usually a Hamilton bus or there was an Imperial Express that ran down James Couzens, what is now the extension of the Lodge Freeway; that wasn’t built yet. So I just waited to hear from them and they said come on in. I went in. The men in my office, the sworn officers, it was a combination. The only other woman was our secretary. They did not have her come in for a few days. But the sworn officers were detailed to the roof of police headquarters with rifles.</p>
<p>BB: Oh wow. What happened?</p>
<p>JD: So I was the only one in the office a lot of the time except for our boss. They asked me to start clipping articles, any newspaper magazine, anything I saw that mentioned what was going on, to cut it out, and then we had this huge scrap book. Big, like, art-size paper, and I pasted these articles on it. Finally it was put together in a book and I hope it’s in the Burton Historical collection.</p>
<p>BB: Okay.</p>
<p>JD: I’ve never looked for it, but I assume that’s where it went.</p>
<p>BB: When we received your notes, that’s one of the things were going to look for next.</p>
<p>JD: They did make smaller copies of it. They shrunk it at some point. I thought I had one but I don’t. Anyway, then I understood that there were fires and looting, and things going on. It wasn’t like I wasn’t affected by it. I realize now that I had to travel through it to get home. Went right through one of the areas, but it just wasn’t anything in my experience that there had been a Kercheval incident but the year before. It was quieted down pretty easily. I knew that an officer had gone into a blind pig and that’s what started things going, and I heard about some of the people I knew in headquarters going out to the scene to try to calm things down. They were standing on trucks in the middle of the street with bullhorns, trying to get people to go home and so forth. Somehow it just didn’t seem real to me until maybe day two or three when the Army showed up, and there were tanks downtown. I used to walk to Hudson’s or Crowley’s for lunch, and there were tanks sitting there. And I thought, “This is silly,” you know, “There’s nothing happening down here. What are they doing?” They were sleeping on cots in various offices in police headquarters. When they first arrived they had no place to put them. And another interesting thing that I remember is that people were bringing food down to headquarters because the officers were on long shifts. It never occurred to us in a million years not to eat it. It certainly would today but back then no. We just accepted it, thanked the people. So it was sort of normal in a way. I mean it was weird watching TV or listening to the radio. You knew what was happening in those areas, and I had worked for the housing commission in the part of that. And some of it was the old neighborhood where I grew up around Chicago Boulevard. But it just never seemed quite real and then things started to escalate. We had the incident at Reverend Franklin’s church. Aretha’s father’s church. And then the Algiers Motel. I was keeping track of how many casualties there were, and officers injured, and things like that. I had all kinds of statistics. I also had all the utilities, Edison, and the gas company, and AT&T were headquartered in our office. Getting updates on where we needed them to guard their own facilities, where we couldn’t handle. The department did what it could to guard their facilities, but they had to put people out. So, we were keeping them apprised of where incidents were occurring and what was happening. It seemed to kind of be contained maybe within a week or ten days.</p>
<p>BB: What was the atmosphere because you did work with cops and deputies? How was the atmosphere with them coming from the scene to the office? Did you hear anything in particular about what was going on from them or did you just get most of your information from news clippings and TV?</p>
<p>JD: Well you heard a lot of racial animus. Some of the black officers on the department were out trying to do what they could to help. Also, black council people and, church reverends, and so forth. Everybody was pitching in trying to help. We couldn’t quite understand and I couldn’t, why people would, if you want to protest something, and maybe the department had been. I don’t know, and of course it never happened to me. But I’m sure they were probably hard on black people. But, if you want to protest something, why burn your neighborhood down? Why hurt yourself? That’s why when people call it a rebellion; it’s hard for me to use that word. You know I know people were angry, but what do you gain by chasing all the merchants out of the city? People who’d run businesses in those areas for years, and just were burned out. It was unthinkable.</p>
<p>BB: Yeah it’s hard. That’s actually my next question. How do you do you perceive the event? Do you see it as a rebellion, do you see the civil unrest, or do you see it as a riot? How would you classify what happened?</p>
<p>JD: I think the Kercheval incident was probably civil unrest, but I think what we had got in July '67 was big enough to be a riot. It was kind of contained to one or two areas, but it was spreading pretty quickly. The police department didn’t seem to be able to stop it, so it was a good thing that we got the National Guard and the Army in here to help. I don’t even know if the department had enough, I mean the officers wore side arms. There might be a rifle in a scout car or two, but I don’t believe we had enough rifles to handle any major disturbances. And there were discussions I heard about you know, "Should we pull everybody back? Is it worth risking police officers, or must we be out there trying to arrest as many people as we could." The other thing was, they didn’t have place to put them. They were bringing them to the garage of police headquarters, which prior to that, I used to walk through to get into the building but they closed it off, took all the cars out of it, and they just had people down there. There were no bathrooms. I mean it was horrible. And finally, Judge George Crockett from recorders court, one of the first black judges, came over and started holding arraignments right in the garage because the people couldn’t get processed fast enough. I don’t remember how long that went on, but a good probably the first week at least. They just didn’t have place to put the people.</p>
<p>BB: Yeah I’ve heard of locations like Belle Isle was used, and I believe the fairgrounds were used so, I’m not surprised. That’s amazing.</p>
<p>JD: They were housing people every because they were just sweeping anybody who happened to be—I mean I guess you could be innocently walking down the street, although, I don’t know why you would be.</p>
<p>BB: Yeah (laughing).</p>
<p>JD: There were curfews and there just were areas where you wouldn’t go.</p>
<p>BB: You say you remember the National Guard and the Army coming in through, do you remember working with them at all, or seeing police officers work with them?</p>
<p>JD: Yeah, I know police officers worked with them. I did not have much to do with them. I was really sitting in an office answering phones and trying to get information from here and there and collate it and get it to the people who needed to have it.</p>
<p>BB: Gotcha.</p>
<p>JD: My office was on the second floor of police headquarters and the executive floor was three. So I would just run up and down the stairs all the time, taking stuff up and I’d see them, pass them in the corridor. But I didn’t have anything to do with them really.</p>
<p>BB: Gotcha, gotcha. So after the event and the days following, how did you perceive your neighborhood and Detroit in general after that, after the event happened?</p>
<p>JD: Nothing happened where we were. My parents had been wanting to sell our house. I think it was August or September of 67’, they were able to sell it and we moved down to the Jeffersonian. It never occurred to any of us to move outside the city. They wanted an apartment. They didn’t think I’d be with them that much longer I guess. Although, in those days if you were a single woman you just did not go out and get an apartment. So we moved to the Jeffersonian. It was a pretty much brand new building at the time. There were very few tenants. I could take the Jefferson bus down to work. So you know I still wasn’t noticing much. Some of the areas that were involved in the Kercheval incident, I would pass on the way to work. But, they’d gone pretty much back to normal. I mean, there were still houses in all those vacant lots that you see today. People took care of their property. They were cutting their lawns. Life was pretty normal for me.</p>
<p>BB: When would you say that things changed?</p>
<p>JD: I won’t say the election of Coleman Young. I think it was before that. Would it have been 1970, or ‘69? Richard Austin ran for mayor against Roman Gribbs. I was kind of a smart mouth, running around telling people that if you voted for Austin, we’d have a reasonably competent black mayor who could perhaps gain the trust of some of these citizens who didn’t trust the government any longer. I didn’t quite understand why they didn’t, but I mean I knew why. It’s just that it wasn’t in my personal experience. I understood their point of view. I lived in a pretty white world. And police headquarters was a very white world, and city government was too. Anyway, Roman Gribbs won. Things started to change during his administration. But Coleman Young’s election was a real flash point, I think. And I think if he had served for two terms, he would have been the greatest mayor Detroit ever had. He served too long. But when he came in he made everything half and half. If he appointed a black department director, then the deputy was white, and vice versa. He made some excellent appointments. He started really pushing the police department to integrate. Other departments too, but police particularly. And they needed pushing. You know, the civil rights laws helped because I don’t think without that the department would have ever—he could have done whatever he wanted to and they would have sat there and said, “Well you’ll be gone and we’ll be here.” They had their own little culture. You know, for the most part the policemen that I worked with were very good people. They wanted to help the community. They didn’t want a bad reputation. The ones I knew weren’t out there beating people up. I heard more, and more, and more about that as I went through my career, because in 1983, at that time I was in charge of the department’s budget, which was about 350 million dollars. I was getting bored. Michael and I were married. He came home one day and he said, he was in the personnel department, “You know you can’t do personnel work anymore without being a lawyer. And I said, “Well if you want to go to law school,” – I tried to go to law school when I graduated from U of M [University of Michigan]. They were only taking one or two women per class at that time. And I could not get in. My grades at U of M weren't that good. I just forgot about it. But when he said that we decided we would go to law school. We both worked our full time jobs and went to law school at night for four years at Wayne and got our law degrees. When I got my law degree, the department put me in their legal unit.</p>
<p>BB: Okay.</p>
<p>JD: There was a high turnover in the unit, so at some point I became the head of it.</p>
<p>BB: Wow.</p>
<p>JD: Just longevity.</p>
<p>(laughing)</p>
<p>BB: You stuck through. You stuck through.</p>
<p>JD: [Cough] As a lawyer for the department and looking at the procedures we had from a little different perspective, when I was writing them, I was writing them for efficiency of operation. We had lawyers review them of course, but there just weren't that many – We could pretty much do what we wanted. By the time I became a lawyer, there were so many statutes and restrictions. We had to check a million different things before we made a rule. [Coughing] And we didn't know if it would conflict.</p>
<p>BB: Okay, so you had gotten your law degree and you were working with the budget and doing more human resources. So after you got your law degree, what did you end up using it for in the department specifically?</p>
<p>JD: Well I worked in the legal advisor section, and we were responsible for reviewing all the orders to make sure they were legal. We taught the legal curriculum at the police academy.</p>
<p>BB: Okay.</p>
<p>JD: There's a big portion of the recruit training that's legal training, naturally. We're liaisons with the attorneys who are defending the cases against the police department.</p>
<p>BB: Okay. What had changed when you were brought on to review policies and things with police officers? What had changed while you were in that position either policy wise or other?</p>
<p>JD: There was a lot of, kind of what's happening now. A lot of protesting about the way police treated citizens, and wanting to make it less confrontational. I know when I taught at the academy [Coughing] they would laugh at me. [Coughing] But I would tell the officers, if you just practice this, "Please, sir, cooperate", instead of saying you know, "MF get down on the ground, assume the position" or whatever. But, like I said, they laughed at me. We had so many lawsuits being brought, and so many citizen complaints [Coughing], that were going to bankrupt the city, which they [Coughing] helped to do. I kept trying to advise people [Coughing], let's do it this way, not that way. [Coughing] I was sent by the department various times to places like New York and Chicago to study how they were doing things. They're trying to modernize, neutralize I guess [Coughing]. I'm going to get some more water. [Coughing] I don't want to make it sound like—I certainly empathized with members of the community. [Coughing] I knew about the amount of prejudice [Coughing] that there was. When I say it didn't affect my life, I did a lot of academic research [Coughing] into what had happened. The causes and so forth. So intellectually I understood it, but I still couldn't understand how burning down your own neighborhood accomplished anything.</p>
<p>BB: Yeah, it's hard.</p>
<p>JD: And when you look at what's happened to Detroit. Now to my mind the, the worst thing, worse than the riot, was the threat of cross district bussing. L. Brooks Patterson was an attorney for a woman named Irene McCabe out in Pontiac. They were fighting the idea of cross district bussing. But that was the thing, when people thought that [Coughing] their kids [Coughing] were going to neighborhood schools with neighbors, that's one thing. But when you're taking white children and trying to integrate them into schools in the black neighborhood, it was a whole other story. I think that did more damage than anything. And probably, people were pretty predisposed to hate Coleman Young. [Coughing] He was, I think thought to be uppity, and he wasn't going to stand for anything. And he didn't. So he made a lot of changes but a lot of people's lives were affected and they didn't like it. I personally think the amount of racism was just, on both sides. Couldn't be overcome. Still hasn't.</p>
<p>BB: Yeah, It's still prevalent for sure. Where do you see Detroit going? Well you’re still in the area, so [Laughing].</p>
<p>JD: I'm glad to see it's coming back. Nobody would like to see it come back more than me. [Coughing] I lived in Detroit for what, [Coughing] more than fifty years. I would still be there, but, we wanted a condo and we weren't able to find anything. Where we are now is about twelve blocks from where we lived in the city, and it didn't seem like I was crossing that big of a line. Although Grosse Pointe has its own connotations. But, the thing – I lived on East Outer Drive [Coughing]. We had our own neighborhood snow removal, neighborhood police patrol [Coughing]. The only thing you can't hire is EMS. And that's what started to scare us. We were getting up there and we thought if we need an ambulance [Coughing], we’re not going to be able to get it. Because we thought a lot about moving downtown, which we lived in when we first got married and we would love to do that. Maybe we will be able to again sometime, but, the services just weren't there. And we’re paying very high taxes. We don't have children so we didn't have the school problem.</p>
<p>BB: Yeah, but you have positive hopes for Detroit?</p>
<p>JD: I do, yes. It was a great city. It is a great city. [Coughing] It has a great history. My family’s been here more than a century. I'm pretty tied to it. Did everything I could, working for it to try to make it better. But there are a lot of other outside forces [Coughing]. Oh my god, it just won't quit.</p>
<p>BB: Yeah I know. Well I know I don't want to make you suffocate here. I know coughing kind of gets to you after a while. One last thing. Is there anything you would like to add that I didn't cover with you in regards to before, after, during, or any advice you have for the younger generation coming in hoping to make the city great again?</p>
<p>[Laughter]</p>
<p>JD: Well, I hope people can get along with each other better [Coughing]. I never understood the divisions. I wasn't brought up to them. I didn't know what the differences were. I always try to get along with everybody and I don't understand [Coughing] why we can't all get along. And maybe the younger generation didn't grow up with all this stuff that can bring it about. I think Mayor Duggan is doing a great job and working at it, but you know it's a working process. It's going to take a long time. I drive around the neighborhoods all the time. I'm in Detroit a lot. It's so sad. [Coughing] But I don't know, I'm sure I'll think of a million other things later.</p>
<p>BB: Well if you do think of anything else, you've got our email address. Please don't hesitate to email me again or give us a call. We can always add your written transcription to this. Because I know you're sick so I really don't want to [Laughing] bug you a little bit more. I really do appreciate you letting us come in and sit down with you guys and getting your story. We appreciate it.</p>
<p>JD: I'm pleased to do it.</p> **
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
Recording
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Bree Boettner
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Jackie DeYoung
Location
The location of the interview
Grosse Pointe, MI
Video
A link to the video
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/aKRRlMM-M7M" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jackie DeYoung, April 5th, 2016
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview, DeYoung discusses her experiences of the 1967 disturbance and how it affected her life. Additionally, she speaks about her 35 year career at the Detroit Police Department and how the department, and the city, operated and changed before, during, and after the 1967 disturbance.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
05/24/2016
Rights
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Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Language
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en-US
Type
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Sound
1967 riot—Detroit—Michigan
Curfew
Detroit Police Department
Government
Kercheval Incident
Mayor Coleman Young
Mumford High School
Public Servant
Tanks
University of Michigan
Wayne State University
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https://detroit1967.detroithistorical.org/files/original/16377f5d6430bb117d4b8b1e11b4117c.jpg
c22575775335f89307cdcab01a87556d
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Detroit 67: Looking Back to Move Forward
Subject
The topic of the resource
Stories gathered to commemorate the summer of 1967 in Detroit.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Detroit Historical Society
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Detroit Historical Society, Detroit, MI
Language
A language of the resource
en-us
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
10/20/2019
Oral History
An audio or video resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Narrator/Interviewee's Name
The current first and last name of the person speaking or being interviewed.
Roman Gribbs
Interviewer's Name
The first and last name of the interviewer.
Noah Levinson
Lillian Wilson
Interview Place
The place where the interview was conducted.
Northville, MI
Date
The date of the interview in MM/DD/YYYY format.
06/24/2015
Interview Length
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01:29:12
Brief Biography
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Roman Gribbs was born to Polish immigrants in Detroit, MI on December 29, 1925 to Polish immigrants and Gribbs grew up on a farm near Emmett, MI and earned a degree in law from the University of Detroit in 1954. He served as mayor of Detroit from 1970 to 1974. He currently lives in Northville, MI.
Transcriptionist
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Arletha Walker
People
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Austin, Richard <br />Cavanagh, Jerry (Jerome) <br /> Greene, Walter <br />Griffiths, Martha<br />Murphy, Patrick V. <br />Young, Coleman A.
Search Terms
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Capac, Michigan Detroit “Little” City Halls, Detroit Renaissance, Emmett, Michigan, Polish-American community, Renaissance Center S.T.R.E.S.S. [Stop the Robberies Enjoy Safe Streets].
Transcription
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<p>NL: Today is June 24, 2015. This is the interview of Roman Gribbs by Noah Levinson and Lily Wilson. We are also accompanied by Jakub Szlaga and Paula Rewald-Gribbs, and we are at Mr. Gribbs’s residence in Northville, Michigan. Mr. Mayor, can I call you that?</p>
<p>RG: By all means, yeah. That’s a very nice title.</p>
<p>NL: Could you start by telling me where and when you were born?</p>
<p>RG: Born in Detroit, December 29, 1925.</p>
<p>NL: Where were you living when you were growing up?</p>
<p>RG: Well, mostly on a farm about sixty miles north of Detroit. It’s in the Thumb area of Capac, in between Emmett and Capac about three miles from Emmett, which was a small town. Capac, a little larger, still small, but they had a high school. Emmett doesn’t so undergrad—grade school—I went to a one-room schoolhouse, grades one to eight with one teacher. I graduated eighth grade, there were three of us. Some of the classes were just one or two. Then when I became high school age, I went to Capac High School and graduated from there in 1944. I was a good student, I was number two. Number one was all A’s—I didn’t quite make it.</p>
<p>NL: And at what point did you move to the city of Detroit?</p>
<p>RG: Excuse me, the farm, yeah, it was a one hundred acre farm.</p>
<p>NL: When did you move to the city?</p>
<p>RG: Well, I went to the service first, because my parents—my dad—always worked at Ford, because when we bought the farm it was only one hundred acres and we did make some money but not enough money to pay for a living. So my dad, who had been employed at Ford Motor for many years, decided to keep working and he’d work during the weeks and then weekends he came to the farm. Afterwards, when there were only two of us and my brother had decided that he wanted to become a priest so he went to the seminary, it was left just to me, with just the two boys and the farming, and I decided I didn’t want to be a farmer after milking cows every morning, every night, Christmas morning, night, New Year’s Eve—gotta milk the cows.</p>
<p>So I decided, that’s not for me and the folks, they sold the farm. I went into the service in 1946. They sold the farm and built a home here in Detroit, and when I left the service, came back to them in Detroit. </p>
<p>NL: Where were you living in 1967? Specifically, what part of the city?</p>
<p>RG: I was in northwest Detroit, on Indiana Street. Yeah, I married, my top daughter next to us here was about eight-years-old?</p>
<p>PG: For the--for the--?</p>
<p>RG: ‘67?</p>
<p>PG: No, I was twelve. We were in Rosedale Park by then.</p>
<p>RG: By that time? Oh, that’s right. It was Rosedale Park.</p>
<p>PG: North Rosedale.</p>
<p>RG: A different street in Rosedale Park, not Indiana. Edinborough Street.</p>
<p>NL: And what were you doing in 1967?</p>
<p>RG: I was a traffic court referee. It was a municipal judge for the city of Detroit. We had three judges of the traffic division and they had six referees would rule on municipal ordinances. So if you got a ticket, or a violation of some sort, a city ordinance violation, you’d come to the referees. By that time the city was about a million and a half—well, a little less than that—but it was just normal business activities of city violations ruled on by the referees.</p>
<p>NL: What do you remember about the city of Detroit in the early and mid-1960s? How would you describe the city?</p>
<p>RG: How much time you got?</p>
<p>NL: [laughter] As long as you—</p>
<p>RG: [Speaking at the same time] What do you mean? What I remember? What again now?</p>
<p>NL: Just about the city: what it looked like, what it felt like living there? The people?</p>
<p>RG: Oh, it was a huge municipality in my view at that time. We were then the fifth largest city in the United States. So there was anything you can think of—except the popular name was the Motor City because the auto industry began here and grew here more so than any other major city, and so we got to be the Motor City. And it was just a thriving, wonderful, all kinds of activities: baseball teams, football teams, you know, all the athletic sports, and all kinds of activities you could talk about at the end of this. There’s a river, there’s all kinds of tourist activities, and so it was just a big, wonderful municipality.</p>
<p>NL: Do you remember where you were when you first heard about the violence and the unrest in late July, 1967?</p>
<p>RG: Yeah, I woke up in the morning and I was in the—now correct me, I think it was Sunday night when the—okay, my memory’s right, then it did start Sunday night. Because the police were making a normal raid—they thought it was normal, and it was normal—as to a gambling facility that somebody had on the second level. It was so huge, I mean the participants—instead of being, a little after two o’clock [a.m.] when they raided the place as they were accustomed to do with maybe two paddy wagons because they thought there might be twenty or forty people—I guess there was over a hundred: it was just a massive, big gambling facility. When the police made their arrests—I just remember reading about this, that they didn’t have the capacity to take them promptly to the jail for facilitating because they had maybe two paddy wagons and they probably needed four or five.</p>
<p>So they were waiting outside and guiding them and the dishevel around the outside and somebody started throwing rocks and breaking windows and there were so many of the people that were around that area—because it was known, obviously, as a gambling facility—that they started apparently breaking windows.</p>
<p>Anyway, Monday morning I heard on the radio that there was turmoil in that area, in that vicinity, and I think I went downtown to work normally to traffic court where I was working, but I’m not sure. But at any rate, yeah, I did go downtown. I waited until about noon and then things were getting tough so we closed down the operation and I was told to go home and wait to see if they could use me in a judicial capacity, as things developed, because there were a lot of people in turmoil going on. So you listen to the radio. I even was asked just to stay there to be available, so I stayed there for the next several days during all the time as the riot began and it continued for several days—whether it was three days or five or seven days depending upon where they put a stop into it. But you know after a couple of days then the governor was called and of course the National Guard came in, and then I was at home, at least that afternoon. I stayed there for instructions.</p>
<p>NL: Who was it that asked you to wait and sort of be on call?</p>
<p>RG: The traffic court referees. I was a referee. The traffic judges were the ones that directed us what to do.</p>
<p>NL: Okay, and did they end up calling on you that week?</p>
<p>RG: No, because I was not a judge, a referee, and they were using judges. There were many judges and they closed the courts by that time and they were simply arraigning. They had hundreds and hundreds under arrest, and they had problems of housing the arrestees, and the judges were then asked to participate in setting bonds for those that were entitled to bonds. So they had to have hearings, and had to have the place, and as a matter of fact, because the jail became overcrowded they opened up facilities on Belle Isle for the reason that they didn’t have the buildings to hold them, even if they took them to Oakland County—there was just so many people. So they were taken to Belle Isle because the access at the bridge and that was one way of containing the people until there was some facility, some basis—a courtroom for a hearing, and a determination by a judge as to whether he should be released or post bond.</p>
<p>NL: Do you remember for how long after those events was your court dealing with all of the civil infractions that came out of that week?</p>
<p>RG: Oh—weeks, weeks. In fact, trials—because several were charged with murders, there were—what was it, forty-two?</p>
<p>NL: Forty-three.</p>
<p>RG: Forty-three, I knew it was forty-something that were killed. That took years before the trials were completed, there were all sorts of lawsuits as a result of that. So there’s no time limit other than saying it was many years for all of them to be done, but after the riots, assembling and arranging and determining who should be released or a short trial—is it going to be an hour, is it going to be three days? The numbers were so high that they—I did not participate, because again, as a referee we didn’t have the judicial capacity as a Recorder’s Court judge or a Circuit Court judge, by statute and by law. They had final authority in a lot of legal decisions and many of them were around, of course, and they didn’t need me and at that time I didn’t have the capacity as a judge.</p>
<p>NL: Do any specific courts or appeals, et cetera, stand out in your memory related to those events?</p>
<p>RG: Not really, there was so many, I read up on all of them. I remember there was a church where some people that were being hunted down started to hide in the church and there were shootings when the police went to arrest them and there were some deaths—anyway, that was one of the famous places. Now it’s a few years ago so I don’t recall specifics because I wasn’t a participant in those proceedings directly.</p>
<p>NL: I see. What are your first memories of being in the city immediately after the violence had subsided? The first time you were going around the city, or going back to work, what are your memories of what things looked like?</p>
<p>RG: The devastation was really amazing—just almost an unrealistic amount of destruction and violence. What do we have—buildings, fires, and stores broken into, and merchandise cleaned out in some stores. There was about $50 million dollars’ worth of property damage—fifty million dollars—and I don’t know how many blocks were covered, but others would tell you that but there’s got to be at least twelve, sixteen or eighteen blocks tore down--and just destroyed and it was very, very sad and unfortunate. I was just an observer like all other citizens because I didn’t have a direct authority to participate other than go back to work within about ten days when things became normal again. But, as you may recall, the National Guard had to come in here to quiet down the rioting and the violence, the destructions and the fires and the thievery—you name it—it just was wild.</p>
<p>NL: Do you think that was necessary, to call in the National Guard for that—</p>
<p>RG: As far as I’m concerned, yes. I know that the mayor, first of all, called—Jerry Cavanaugh was the mayor. He was a classmate of mine as it turns out. He was in night class at the University of Detroit, I was in day classes, but were the same graduating class. So I knew him, Jerry, and I knew that he been calling in the governor for help. The state police came in. That was inadequate, so then he and the governor decided to call in the National Guard. So the National Guard and the semi-tanks or trucks with all their uniforms came in, that quieted down the riots when they were traveling up and down the roads and it stopped the violence. The Detroit police, the state police, and any other additional police—cities that were sending over policemen to help the city were inadequate—they couldn’t do it, they couldn’t quiet the violence. So the governor and the mayor, at the governor’s request, brought in the National Guard and they quieted that.</p>
<p>Let me give you an interesting note, later years—when I went to the service I skied a little bit there because there was a hill nearby. So I later went to college, I enjoyed skiing. And about twenty years later I was skiing out West one of the first or second times, and I was lining in the chair and started chatting with a fella and he was a colonel and I said “You’re from Detroit?” and he said, “Yeah, I was there and I was in charge of the riots.” I said, “What?” and he was the colonel that was sent here and he was in command. He was telling me he was at the Book Cadillac Hotel and he took over about half of the hotel for the armed services that were coming in. And we chatted and I think we had dinner that night. It was just a shared coincidence, odd things that happened in the world.</p>
<p>NL: Yeah, small world.</p>
<p>RG: I may have been at Vail or someplace in Colorado when we were skiing at that time. Interesting.</p>
<p>NL: What were your thoughts on the race relations between the citizens and the government or the police at this time?</p>
<p>RG: Well, it was obviously inadequate because of the riots. I mean, it wasn’t just the beginnings of a handful or a dozen, or gamblers, but when you get to the level of the participants that are that large—of wrecking houses and starting fires and the looting, avoiding the police, and shooting police and with weapons, and various homicides, and it’s so vast—it’s a community problem, obviously, that has so much discontent to such a level that they do the violent things, and I think under the normal circumstances that those things don’t happen. There’s always some reason that gives them the momentary rationale to become violent and not uphold the law. It was a disappointment. It meant that the city has to review what they were doing and in some manner or fashion develop the community with the kind of responses that they were seeking. And among other things, I was looking at all those things, of course, when I became mayor and I had the responsibility then to improve the city and improve conditions for the people.</p>
<p>For example, when I became mayor and I took a hard look at the number of leadership that were black, and in the police department they had about eight to nine-percent of the police were black. Now that’s four thousand cops at that time, in round numbers, and so one of the first things I did is to hire a personnel person—that I took from one of the, maybe General Motors, and he was a talented personnel, really—to train the police. With that large number of police, every year you have to train what, three hundred, four hundred new police officers. I said to him, “Improve the academy, and I want at least fifty-percent of each that you hire to be black, but I want them competent black.” And he did and he more than doubled the black representation, we had a little over twenty-percent of the total policemen were black in that four-year period based upon that director. All that means is that the Negro community, the black community, sees people in authority that they recognize and will listen to, even if they’re inclined to be anti-white or anti-black or whatever, but it’s the mix that was warranted.</p>
<p>At that time, when I took office, about 45 percent of the people were black. And after the riots, many people were leaving—not the blacks—but there were white people that could manage to leave, that were apprehensive about their safety and kids, particularly if they had kids. Schools, schools were a problem then—they’ve been a problem since—so there were many reasons for moving.</p>
<p>Really, the very first thing I did when I took office as mayor was to appoint the deputy mayor. There wasn’t a position but I appointed it, made him deputy mayor and I made him a black man. He was a black man: Walter Greene. He was in charge of the State of Michigan [Civil Service Commission] —it wasn’t activities, I forget. He was an agency of human relations working for the State of Michigan. He was an outstanding guy. His wife was a principal at one of the schools in Detroit, so he lived here. I had heard him talking before I became mayor, I was sheriff, and I heard him talking and became familiar with his abilities. So I said, “I need someone like you, would you be deputy mayor? I’ll give you full authority if I’m out of town, you’re the mayor and you’re running it.” That was helping to the integration that should exist. So anyway, that’s one of the many things that I tried to do to bring the black community into the administrative phase of running the city. At that time, we had almost 25,000 employees. Now think of that: 25,000, 4,000 police officers and by the time I was done, I raised the police department to 7,000, because crime was the number one issue even before the riots. And crime was an issue, of course, after the riots, so what we needed was trained law enforcement people. </p>
<p>And so we got the funding and, in fact, I was in Washington a number of times and we got several grants dealing with law enforcement, and I was able to hire quickly within a couple of years, an additional 2,000 policemen and women. That helped stabilize the city and as a matter of official record, crime went down every year—somewhat—as a result of increased police officers and better law enforcement, understanding law enforcement. Now most cities were proud to have instead of an increase, that the increase was reduced. My four years, it was not just a reduction in the increase, it was an absolute reduction, and we balanced a budget, too. Those are matters that maybe you’re not interested in, but I had an accounting background among other things and it’s like anybody else: I don’t spend the money unless we have it.</p>
<p>As a matter of fact, I should tell you this little episode: within three months, my budget director and my auditor did an analysis and Jerry Cavanaugh left me with about a thirty million dollar deficit. To balance the budget, we had to lay off [some] of those existing 25,000 employees. So after an analysis and after about four months, each department head was told what they had to do to balance the budget and eliminate the deficit and they have to, by union rules, give them at least a month’s notice, so they sent out notices of layoffs in about a month. So I’m in office for about six months, page one of the newspapers: “First layoff since the Depression.” Now you know the Depression is ‘30s and the first layoffs—the Depression—that’s a terrible way to have a new mayor but that’s what I did and it worked. It worked out fine, because we balanced the budget that year, we did after that, and that’s the way it should be run. Anyway, that’s part of the job. </p>
<p>NL: Understandable. I wanted to rewind a little bit, but continuing to talk more about your professional political career, starting in the late ‘60s. Can you tell me first about your role as the Wayne County Sheriff? </p>
<p>RG: Oh, well, I was a traffic court referee and I did that for about a year and then I went into private practice. The sheriff of Wayne County got into trouble and he quit. He was charged with payola. He was, among other things, if you gave him a hundred dollars, he’d give you a badge as honorary sheriff. Well, people were using that, “I’m an honorary sheriff,” and so forth, among other things. Buback was his name, and he was a good guy, but he made some mistakes and he was charged, but he got—he resigned because he had a pension from the City of Detroit. And the Appointing Authority, appointed me as sheriff and then I was up for election and that was in early ‘68. Then in the fall I was running and I was elected sheriff of Wayne County. So I was sheriff at the time of ‘68, and I did that until—Jerry Cavanaugh was gonna run for another term, and he decided late not to run and [there were] other friends of mine, like councilmen, that I thought would be competent to run. </p>
<p>I was politically active of course and I wanted to run—and they decided not to—so finally somebody pointed at me. I said, “Well,” and let out some feelers, so to speak, and tested the waters and they looked good, so I decided to run. Had no idea before that to run for mayor, that there would be an opening, didn’t ever want to be. But having been sheriff, having seen what had happened, I figured maybe I could do it, and I was elected. And it’s interesting, that for the first time, one of the two nominees was black! So that brought up the racial matter again and consciously, if you will. And he was a good guy, he was the county auditor. He went on to state office even though I defeated him, but not by much, it was a close election! But it was a good election, and I really enjoyed the four years as mayor.</p>
<p>NL: Can you tell me more about the campaign that year with you and Richard Austin and what the mayoral campaign was like and what your platform was?</p>
<p>RG: Well, my platform was: I am sheriff. I’m experienced in law and crime so I hope to solve the criminal problem, number one. And then the economic problem, I said I’m going to balance the budget, okay. And I did balance the budget, it did a number of years but not all of them. My responding to all the questions, I’m going to bring in everybody and representation for the black community. And I did. It was the standard primary, Noah: “Are the lights working? Are the streets clean? Are the parks clean?” Well, you have 25,000 employees, the Department of Parks and Recreation probably had 1,200 employees. You know they had a lot of parks in the city and at that time we had between million three and million two people, we had a million five up until the riot and then it went downhill because a lot of people were moving. But there was still about a million two and a half or three when I took office and I hopefully stabilized the city sufficiently that people would be more inclined to stay here, and that’s the way it worked out for me. I think that we had a good four years.</p>
<p>NL: Do you remember were there specific measures taken in the campaign to attract black voters since their other choice was the first black candidate that they had seen for mayor before?</p>
<p>RG: I don’t understand your question.</p>
<p>LW: How did you appeal to black voters?</p>
<p>RG: Same as the white—you know, I treated them equal. The only difference is the skin in my view and that means nothing. Such as one of the greatest guys in communicating to everybody was Walter Greene, he was the Deputy Mayor. When he would go out to speak at churches—as Mayor, I had four invitations every night for the whole four years: because all of the churches, the organizations, there’s the Eastside, there’s the Northside, there’s the Southside, and the Westside. When you have 1,300,000 people, that’s a lot of churches and you can only go to so many. The saying kind of got: “Well, if Greene is here, Gribbs ain’t coming!” [Laughter] So I was able to send him to speak to the communities on behalf of the City and it was great to have him. When I announced I was leaving office, he then took a job with a Detroit bank, went to—was an official with one of them.</p>
<p>NL: Did you consider running for another term as mayor in ‘74.</p>
<p>RG: Another term?</p>
<p>NL: Another term as mayor, yes.</p>
<p>RG: Yeah, I considered it. But at that time, I had five kids and that’s a long time to be away from the family and the kids. So I had to develop a system, and I said to my secretary and others “I’m going to be home at least two days and I’ll try to make it three nights, at least, to be home for dinner in a week.” I’ll never forget the first July week when we had the fireworks and other events, there was always something going on. Every night I was out, dinnertime, doing something or another and I said I’m never going to do that again, because you gotta have time with kids, because you want to and you should be home.</p>
<p>That was one of the reasons. And I thought I had made a lot of changes and hopefully established, with personnel we had, I had some great people that worked with me and for me—my auditor, Bob Roselle, he went on to be the Executive Vice President for Campbell Ewald, and my attorney went on to work for Chrysler and he became an official within Chrysler’s in an executive position. My police department—because crime was the number one issue—I made a national search for a police chief. We called it Chief of Police then, and so I hired a fellow named [Patrick V.] Murphy. He had been president of the national Police Foundation. He became a cop in New York City, then went to Rochester, New York, and was Deputy Chief or something, and then he became the head of the Police Foundation. I had a search committee, they had heard that he was unhappy about doing the organizational work and wanted to get back into police work. So I interviewed him, boom, he took the job. He came over here in Detroit and he did such a good job that the mayor of New York, [John] Lindsay, called me a year after he’s here. He said, “I gotta have a new police chief. Do you mind if I talk to Murphy?” I said, “Come on—he’s good.” He said, “He is good.” I said, ‘No, go head, talk to him,” and so Murphy took it. I tell you why, because he had a department of five or six thousand police officers here and New York is 25,000 cops. And because he was initially a patrolman there, started his career there, he ended up with a full retirement. If he only worked a day as a police chief in New York, he gets full retirement. So all those benefits! Besides, it was his city, so he went back home as Chief of Police. So I lost him and promoted the assistant chief at that time.</p>
<p>NL: What was it that made him such an effective leader of the police, do you think?</p>
<p>RG: Well, he said “You want to be a command officer? Get a degree. Up to lieutenant, we’ll promote, but beyond lieutenant, I want you to get a college degree of some sort or at least a couple of years of police training, academic training.” That was just one of the things, and the integrity and the training—he’s the one that helped me pick out the personnel director that hired the cops. He was just inspirational, he was very sharp. He worked for Lindsay for I think three or four years, long time in New York, yeah.</p>
<p>NL: So before that there were no educational requirements in the police?</p>
<p>RG: No. As a matter of fact, the police chief was, I think, just a street cop. Well, a lot of them would take college classes sometimes on their own, but it was not required. Just as long as you’re a high school grad, you could become a policeman.</p>
<p>NL: Could you talk about the S.T.R.E.S.S. [Stop the Robberies Enjoy Safe Streets] units in the police department?</p>
<p>RG: Oh yeah, have you read up on that?</p>
<p>NL: A little bit.</p>
<p>RG: Well, S.T.R.E.S.S. unit was simply a law enforcement technique that went bad. Went bad in that it was not properly supervised and before I became aware of it, they had a couple of misfortunate and too-aggressive events that they became notorious and I had to change it officially. What S.T.R.E.S.S. was is a group of eight to ten policemen who would go into a high-crime area—not as cops, but just walk the streets in regular clothes—and became familiar with the business people and the community there, and get their confidence so they would help point out the criminality that would come into that high-crime and high-stress crime community. And as a result, they would learn within a couple of weeks—cause it doesn’t take long if you’re walking there every day and talking to the neighbors and the store owners and so forth—as to where the bad men were and they would circle on some of it and once they were identified, they would make the arrest. Well, there was such violence that the groups, they would resist and there were shootings in the effort to arrest. And that’s what the S.T.R.E.S.S.—I forget, what were the words for that?</p>
<p>NL & LW: Stop the robberies, enjoy safe streets.</p>
<p>RG: One in particular, but there were several of the police were very aggressive. Now, we’re talking at a time when we’ve had shootings that almost start riots in other cities where policemen killed a black man, several of them in the last six months as we’re talking. Ferguson and what other place?</p>
<p>NL: Baltimore.</p>
<p>RG: Baltimore, yeah, talk about Baltimore. So it’s that kind of event that arouse the people and it was getting the very rabid, agitating kind of community leaders that were not the best for anybody – anyway, were agitating and S.T.R.E.S.S. was then becoming a basis for the election when I decided not to run for mayor. I announced right after Christmas a year before my term was ended, so it was known that I was not gonna run again. And I did it primarily to give my good people an opportunity to find another job, really. I asked them to stay, but I said to my department heads, I said, “Hey, find yourself a job, because I don’t want to surprise you in the middle of the summer and say ‘I’m not gonna run’ late.” There was no reason to wait because I had made up my mind. We had started enough things, I thought the city was financially sound, and was improving. So I made the announcement and that became an issue during the campaign. So, Coleman Young said, “Oh, I’m going to ban them” and he did. But no big deal—it was just a police group of eight or ten cops that were put into another responsibility. It was just mismanaged.</p>
<p>NL: What made it so difficult to manage that group or to keep things organized regarding their work?</p>
<p>RG: Say again, what made it?</p>
<p>NL: You said a couple times that the idea behind S.T.R.E.S.S. is sound, but that they were mismanaged. What aspect of that was mismanaged?</p>
<p>RG: Well, you don’t put an aggressive cat in that job, because it’s too sensitive. You know you’re gonna have a shoot ‘em out, because you’re going after the shooters. You’re going after the guys with guns, you know, or gamblers or sophisticated crooks is what you’re going after, not going to the guy that steals a book from the bookstore. You’re going after the organized crime and you’re going after those that are non-organized but violent and use guns. So, you have to have the right personnel, not only in charge, but doing that kind of work. And they had a couple of guys that were quick with a trigger—cops. Like most recently, I don’t know each one but, we’ve all read about Ferguson: that they claimed the shooting was inappropriate—shot in the back—it’s inappropriate, obviously, if that’s the case. But there were others, you know, the cops were justified in shooting, and that’s always a serious question when there’s a death involved, “Did you have to pull the trigger?” That’s always a delicate matter, and you don’t have time to discuss it before you pull the trigger, that’s the problem. Bang, bang, something’s happening. Either he’s going to shoot me or I’m going to shoot him, I guess. Then those circumstances arise.</p>
<p>LW: When you left office, did you feel that—you mentioned you had balanced the budget and the police force was becoming more integrated. You felt that there was a good chance that Detroit would come back from ’67.</p>
<p>RG: Oh, I thought so, very positively. I even started a lot of programs one was called Little City Halls. It wasn’t my idea, they did that in Boston. I went up and I heard about that in Boston. At mayor’s meetings, I talked to the mayor of Boston—White, Mayor White. What you do is open a store, and here again you gotta remember it’s a 1,300,000 people. So you got a neighborhood, well let’s say the south side, and we opened a store and had a policeman and other city representatives there, so that they’re there, not 24 hours, but at least eight hours a day five days a week, where people can go there and get their license renewed or “How do I get the roof fixed?” or “How do I get a job?” So the people could tell you from a police point of view and from the other kinds of services this city would have, it only takes one or two people to run a directive to help people do what they have to do with the city. “Oh, I think I want to improve the house, what do I do? Do I need a license?” “Oh yeah, you gotta get permission if you’re gonna tear the wall off,” and so forth. “Just file the application and make sure it’s the right people” and that kind of thing and if a light isn’t working, file a complaint here instead of going downtown.</p>
<p>There’s nothing worse than—I remember working with traffic court, we had three sessions and they did a good job. When you get a ticket, they’ll tell you go to court at eight o’clock or at ten o’clock or at one o’clock, and as a referee we would have maybe ten cases at 8:00 and we’d be done with them within two hours. Then we’d get the next bunch, and what you do is provide efficiency so you don’t go there at eight o’clock and wait 'til twelve o’clock, three hours to talk about a five dollar fine I don’t want to pay, you know.</p>
<p>That was a real education for me in justice because, you see, as a traffic court referee, you see the world right in front of you. Here comes a little old lady walking and soon she’s sitting in there and she’s one of about ten people and the court officer. We wore a robe, and we’d open court, and then I’d make an announcement as to the standards, and what we look at and then the clerk would call the case and this lady would come up and she says,</p>
<p>“I don’t know what to say.”</p>
<p>“Tell me what happened” and “You’re charged with doing this—” say—not speeding—maybe a traffic light.</p>
<p>And I said, “Do you have a bad record?” I had the records. “Do you have a bad record?”</p>
<p>“Oh, I haven’t had a ticket for 20 years.”</p>
<p>“Case dismissed. Good-bye!”</p>
<p>That’s the way it should happen. You forgive them for that one violation and that’s what justice is about. On the other hand, come over here and this woman is selling whatever merchandise and parking all over improperly in downtown Detroit and other places, and well here she’s got twenty-two tickets in three months and bingo, that would add up to, well, let’s see about one-hundred seventy dollars for these tickets and boom, “One hundred seventy dollars, thank you.” If she doesn’t like what I said then she’d go right up to traffic court and talk to the judge. That’s the way the system worked and it was a good, efficient system. Anyway, you try to provide that kind of service for other municipal operations that are necessary.</p>
<p>LW: So after you left office, you had a sense that you had done some good work you had gotten the city to a place that was stable, or hopeful, and I’m wondering what happened after that, from your prospective. How did you see this as now, not mayor, but how did you see the city develop or digress?</p>
<p>RG: All forty years? [laughter]</p>
<p>LW: [Laughter] No, during the next mayorship…</p>
<p>NL: We could start during Mayor Young’s tenure, maybe.</p>
<p>LW: Yeah.</p>
<p>RG: Well, I think Mayor Young was close—he could have been a—people think he was an outstanding judge. I don’t think he was outstanding. I think he had a good term and a half, roughly two. I was watching him closely, and I think he just stayed too long. I think he was efficient, and in my opinion the facts of the first two terms, term and a half, were good. After that, things began to happen.</p>
<p>One of the worst things he did, though, is essentially say to [the] community, but also outside of Detroit, “This is my city and I’m gonna run it my way.” Okay, now what does that mean? Well I talked to other mayors and people that I dealt with and they would say, “Well, we tried to get a cooperative effort in so many things” that cities deal with each other—traffic, lights, regional facilities, water, sewers—and they’d say that “It’s okay when he deals with his people that way, but we don’t like it when he’s trying to tell me what to do.” I’m talking about the other mayors, so the cooperation was lacking and his aggressiveness went further than it should have gone, is my criticism of his.</p>
<p>There are plusses and minuses. Historians have said, “For example,” historians, “I [Coleman Young] started—the Ren Cen [Renaissance Center] was started by me in 1972. Henry Ford and I were talking about—well first of all, they started—the Chamber of Commerce—oh, think of his name [unintelligible]—said “Let’s have a group like they had in Pennsylvania. They had a Committee of [One] Hundred that helped Pittsburgh, and let me get the group together and we’ll need your cooperation” when I was mayor, I said “Oh, that’s terrific!” So he established Detroit Renaissance and the Renaissance was all the executives of the major industries here, and he added up about thirty, we ended up with about thirty-three, starting with only the executive of each organization—which meant for Ford, Henry Ford II had to be there to vote, and General Motors, it had to be Fisher, or whoever it was, Murphy was then the Chief Executive of General Motors and Chrysler was Townsend, and then the banks and then the utilities. So a committee of thirty-three and Max Fisher was the chairman. It was that committee that established the fact that we needed something new downtown Detroit. So they hired [John] Portman—is it Portman?—to establish the Ren Cen, a plan for the whole downtown area. And the announcement was made in September, 1971. Where’s the plaque? I don’t know where the plaque—anyway. </p>
<p>PG: Where is the plaque? Is it in your room?</p>
<p>RG: Maybe, I don’t know. No, it’s not there, not where it’s opened up.</p>
<p>PG: Okay.</p>
<p>RG: But anyway, we announced, and it’s covered by TIME Magazine with pictures of me and Henry Ford sitting down making the announcement. What he announced was, “We’re starting a $350,000,000 project: we’re gonna have a central hotel, four offices, another wing over here with two to four buildings, another wing over here with two to four buildings, all right in front of, right across the water and on Jefferson Avenue.” And it’s there now. When I left office, the steel was still going up—cause you had to condemn the land and all of that—but that project came about under my administration, and they suddenly started to give credit to Coleman Young because three years after he took office, they dedicated the building—it took them that long to build it. Anyway, all he did there was watch the brick go up.</p>
<p>Anyway, the good historians are giving me credit. It’s an attitude and an atmosphere that permeated the city, and the community. And the executives in the community had confidence in my administration to then announce and to build and to give money. And the announcement was that Ford, as seed money, was giving six thousand, Chrysler five, GM five, and the banks, three each. So there was about thirty million dollars. Did I say thousands? Millions—six million—so thirty million dollars’ worth of seed money to get it started and the rest was mortgage money. It took, I think by the time they were done building the hotel and the first four buildings, I think it was supposed to be about $300 million, and it went up to about $370 [million] by the time they were done for the first four, and the rest is history.</p>
<p>All you guys, pardon me, and madam—look at the buildings that are there. But I helped start it, it was my great joy. I had good leadership and department heads that could deal with their department heads that could deal with General Motors executives and the lesser ones and so forth and build confidence in the community that the city is worth rebuilding, it just needed rebuilding—let’s start with downtown. So we started with downtown, and we had a great start and it went well for a while and then it started to go downhill.</p>
<p>LW: When you say it went downhill, from your perspective, how did you see that happen?</p>
<p>RG: How’d I see it happen?</p>
<p>LW: Yeah, how did you see that, when it went downhill, so to speak, how did you see—what were the signs to you that was going on?</p>
<p>RG: I really don’t know except to—to answer the question—except to say that it really broke my heart. I think the attitude of Coleman as “My city,” which means “Hey, it’s going to be all black.” It’s not going to be that. I mean, what do people think? If Coleman says, “My way!” or use swear words, “You hit the road,”—you know. And he was very open about the cuss words and his command, and so forth. And then Dennis Archer came in and it was different, it was better. But during that time it went downhill, and that’s why I said his first two years [terms], when he had two more years [terms], it was a long time for that kind of attitude to stay in the community. What you needed is a community, “Oh! He’s a nice guy.” “Oh! That city has promise, they’re building downtown,” and “Oh, I think I’ll go to Detroit.” But if you have the other attitude and you’re gonna start a business or put a branch in Michigan, oh, instead of Detroit they’ll go to Flint or they’ll go to Westland, or whatever—Dearborn, lot of good towns.</p>
<p>That went downhill for a lot of reasons: that’s one of the reasons, and if that situation arises people leave and leave and leave, and that’s what happened—when people leave and leave. Now, one of the things that I should mention that I’ve always had a problem with is that the mayor has nothing to say about the education.</p>
<p>LW: Okay.</p>
<p>RG: The educational system traditionally has been a—not only here but throughout the United States—primarily a separate entity with a separate board and a separate command and administrative people. When I was mayor, I spoke to the school board at the beginning of the first year and I spoke to them in the last year when I was leaving office, and they were very courteous and everything, but they said “Nice to see ya” and essentially they said, “Goodbye.” I said “Thanks for listening to me.” But essentially, as you know and history has shown that over and over there are different leadership in the school system. Now, if you’re gonna have kids and you want to move someplace, what you have to have is safety so the kids can play, you have to have that and you have to have a good school system, not just a system, but a good one. And Detroit was having trouble back then forty-two years ago when I was mayor, it was not a good system. And I spoke to them directly and they hired the superintendents—two years later, boom, they hire another superintendent, three years later, another one—money and all that. I’ve been always close to education, I lectured at the university—I taught for three years at the University of Detroit—and I’ve been close to education.</p>
<p>At any rate, some cities, some major cities—I think Chicago, San Francisco, and some others since I’ve been in office—the city has given the mayor the authority to appoint the superintendent of education. [inaudible] But that’s just a thought of mine, that if an educational system is not working, the citizens should appoint the mayor and put him in charge. If you’ve got one man, it’s different because either you’ll get someone good or else you get him out of there. But if you have a committee and you change the committee, they have someone then years later you got a different committee—oh, they’ll appoint him. I don’t know if you have experience working with committees, but you know if you have more than three people—you have three people, you have three opinions, you know. If you have ten people, you have ten opinions. And you compromise. It’s always a second, or third, or fourth compromise to get somebody appointed. But that’s my view. Like I appointed an outstanding Chief of Police and they worked—both of them were outstanding. And if they wouldn’t do it, they were gone. I hired one fella that I didn’t—I made a mistake by taking not enough time to interviewing him— and I hired him. Two weeks later I fired him. I just made a mistake, but you can do that and if you find something that’s not doing right, you’re in charge. And it’s a massive responsibility, but if you do it right and he or she does the job—</p>
<p>Now, for example, Ridgeway, sure [directed to daughter, Paula]</p>
<p>PG: What? Bill, June?</p>
<p>RG: Pardon me?</p>
<p>PG: June?</p>
<p>RG: Yeah, June Ridgeway. June Ridgeway was a neighbor of ours and she helped me in my campaign. I said, “Hey, why don’t I give you something to do?” and I made her secretary to the auditors. No, not auditors. The secretary to— </p>
<p>PG: Tax assessors?</p>
<p>RG: Yeah, that’s right, yeah, the taxing department and she then became an expert by going to classes and within a year she was a Class Four Assessor. That’s the word, assessor. So she would go then and look at a plant and establish its value, and we would tax according to the value that she set, that the assessor set. And she was such an outstanding person that later on I put her in charge of other work, and she ran Cobo Hall under Coleman Young. She, uh, well whatever. And its good people like that I was able to find, and when you see them you recognize it. I really recognized it in her so I moved her up the ladder as quickly as I was able to. She became one of the assessors and—because she was trained for it and she was doing her job. </p>
<p>NL: Back tracking a little bit, you mentioned before your interactions with Jerry Cavanaugh, that you guys were classmates together.</p>
<p>RG: Yeah.</p>
<p>NL: Could you tell me your thoughts about his tenure as mayor of the city?</p>
<p>RG: Oh, I thought it was pretty good. He, in fact, was so effective that they were thinking that he’s going to go up the ladder and maybe run for senator or something. And he did try to run later on, but the riots broke his heart because that was a devastating factor in his administration. In his election, they attributed the black community to electing him because he was treating the black community—now that’s eight years before I went into office, he had eight years, two four-year terms—and because he was a thirty-three-year-old kid, but when he campaigned, he campaigned among the black community. And they liked him and he was well received by the black leadership. And he was elected mayor. And he was easily elected a second time he was doing work and he was getting acclaim nationally.</p>
<p>I got some acclaim nationally because I ended up being the president of National League of Cities, which is another chapter we could talk about: going to Lansing, going to Washington, and getting their support and their money—particularly when they needed it—both the State of Michigan and the Feds at that time. I remember Nixon was the president. I remember that Martha Griffiths was a congresswoman, she was effective in the House. And I knew Martha, she would listen and she was effective, she was a no-nonsense legislator. I got her, others too, and Ford was the leader of the House at that time, Gerald Ford.</p>
<p>I remember going there and telling them, “The Feds need to give money to the cities because the cities have the responsibility to take care of the poor, and it’s a disproportionate responsibility.” So, the city of Lansing has some poor but nowhere near the number of poor that the city of Detroit has or the city of New York, or San Francisco had. As a matter of fact, at the second meeting of the National League of Cities, there were two organizations: U.S. Conference of Mayors and the National League of Cities. And the National League of Cities is the bigger one in terms of participants because they had department heads and not just the mayors, where the others, just the mayors. So anyway, I was active and I said to the mayors, “Let’s have a meeting. Why don’t you come to Detroit? If eight of you guys come to Detroit, eight of us went to New York and went to Chicago, went to San Francisco at one time and say, ‘We need these monies! It’s a federal—because we’re assuming a responsibility that’s broader than the cities, the cities should not have the financial burden.’”</p>
<p>And sure as hell, we got aid. We got aid from the Feds, about a year later. But the first meeting was held in Detroit and Mayor Lindsay here—the mayor of Chicago, he wasn’t one of the group, he was sort of an independent—but San Francisco was Alioto, and Los Angeles, I forget. Anyway, I gave each one five minutes, so there was eight of us, maybe ten of us—and, man, all the press and the TV—and we got that notification when we went to Frisco, and we told the people and the legislators in Congress about that. So federal aid—we finally got legislation passed by talking to Gerald Ford and talking to Martha Griffiths and talking to the community, by meetings with mayors and anyway, I became an officer and the fourth year in office I was President of National League of Cities. I enjoyed that very much, it’s a big operation.</p>
<p>I remember being there for the signing of the legislation and being the personal guest of Nixon and it was an exciting time. I really enjoyed being mayor, I’ll tell you, I wish I had stayed for a second term for many reasons, but for many reasons I didn’t want to stay, too. I had established a number of programs like the Little City Halls, and the police—crime went down. It was a safer community and people were starting to stay, and I was trying to get the education help to the extent that I could. But we had a good four years and it was okay for about six years, and then it started to go—more people started to move. When you have that sort of attitude, as they said, “If you don’t have safety, don’t have a school system, I’m living someplace else!” Same rent, same health costs— </p>
<p>NL: Could you tell me about meeting with Richard Nixon when he was president? You said you met with Richard Nixon?</p>
<p>RG: Yeah.</p>
<p>NL: What was that like?</p>
<p>RG: Oh, it was very exciting! It was exciting, press and all that. Washington—everything is news, cameras, and all that. No, it was very pleasant, and I was sort of surprised that he finally came—when we started this effort and we got things going in the House, cause Jerry Ford was there and Martha Griffiths, and then I spoke to Senator—Hart was then the senator, and, um, what’s the guy that— </p>
<p>PG: Reigle? Reigle? Were you looking for the other senator?</p>
<p>RG: Yeah, the other senator.</p>
<p>PG: Wasn’t it Reigle?</p>
<p>RG: No, it may have been Reigle at the time, I forget, it’s only forty-two years ago, forty-five years ago. Anyway, we got it going there and finally we had to get—cause the president was in sort of a “wait and see” [indecipherable] from his staff—we finally got him aboard, and so it was a pleasure. I was invited to—because I was an officer with the National League of Cities—I was invited to the meetings that the president would have in his cabinet room. And he appointed the—who was the vice president and then resigned?</p>
<p>NL: Um, Agnew?</p>
<p>RG: Yeah, Agnew. He appointed Agnew. In the first meeting we had in the cabinet room, he said “I want you mayors to stay in touch and I’m going to ask Vice President Agnew to be available to you people all the time.” So he was our entry into the president’s operations. And he was easy to work with except he disappeared in short order when he resigned. Once a year we were invited to meet with the president in the cabinet room and I was there starting with the first year, each time, and then the last year I was president of the National [League of Cities], so I was sitting right next to him in the cabinet room. Down there it was ex-Governor Romney, who was then head of HUD [U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development] and I was next to the president and he’s at the end of the table—sort of a strange relationship [laughter], I thought.</p>
<p>But anyway, it was exciting, it was a great four years really. When you think back as to the responsibility and if you do your best and it works out, then there’s great satisfaction. I was satisfied in the fact that we turned the city around for a while, anyway, didn’t turn it around for twenty-five years but turned it around for at least ten years, and it was a good place to come to live and to be a citizen. Then things started to go down when good people, good people started to move out, people that had initiatives either with businesses or getting houses fixed and all of that. But if you get just the lazy ones or the ones that don’t do anything, then the good ones move out and that’s what happened to Detroit, unfortunately. Where is it now? Now it’s about 700,000 people [indecipherable] of a million three, in less than forty years, really—</p>
<p>NL: It’s about half.</p>
<p>RG: —they’ve been going for about thirty years. And the employees: I had 25,000 employees now they have what, 7,000? No maybe ten, it’s about maybe 10,000 now because fewer people are needed.</p>
<p>NL: Well, I guess, following up on that note, in your experience as mayor and your decades living in Southeast Michigan since then, what would be sort of your advice to Duggan and to other city leaders to help, either to turn Detroit around or help keep it moving forward in the direction that some things seem to start to be moving in?</p>
<p>RG: I didn’t hear the last part—be what?</p>
<p>NL: What would your advice or ideas be to Duggan, the current mayor, and the leadership of the city to help keep things moving forward—</p>
<p>RG: [Speaking at same time] Oh, the city, it’s like running any business that has 10,000 employees—period. You start with that premise and it’s a business. Well, the business of running a city, but if you just kind of analogize with a corporation or whatever you want it to be, and you have that many people as employees, you have to run them, manage them—like department heads—and that was my good fortune. I had the good fortune to find people, that had competence, that were willing to work with me. And that makes a difference, because sometimes you have competent people and they don’t want to move. But I got, as I say, some of the people, all the ones that were my appointees—and they all knew that if they’re working at my pleasure and only to the extent, [indecipherable] “you run the city!” For example, the Chief of Police, I said “Hey, I’ve got law enforcement background, I was assistant prosecuting attorney for ten years, then I was a city judge and I was sheriff,” I said, “But you’re running the police department and I want you to keep me advised as to any serious problems or major efforts. But by and large, you hire and you fire and you’re in charge of that but do it right and that’s all I want.” And they all did. When you have people—whether it’s running 1,200 at parks and recreation or eight people with the planning department—you know the city planning department has eight or ten people—it’s same responsibility: do the job and do it efficiently. And it works.</p>
<p>But you gotta have the people and I was lucky enough to have the people that made the city turn around. Jerry Tannian, for example, Jerry Tannian was one of the people in my office—I had an office of about six assistants sitting at my right hand, and Jerry was my coordinator for my law enforcement [and] fire department. He was a former FBI agent and I hired him when I became mayor because I knew of him and his work. As a matter of fact, it was Jerry Tannian—when the police chief left toward the end of my last year around September—I appointed Jerry Tannian Chief of Police because he was familiar with it and it was only about four months left. And I made him Chief of Police and he was so good that Coleman Young kept him more than three years longer than many of the—police chiefs last about from one to two years, generally, sometimes three, and Tannian with Coleman. Then as Jerry says, the FBI was checking into some of Coleman’s activities and Jerry didn’t tell Coleman Young. And Coleman Young got wind from somebody that the FBI was checking out whatever the activities were and he called Jerry in and said “Why didn’t you tell me?” He said, “Hey, I was in confidence. They told me in confidence, I couldn’t do it.” So he fired him. But that’s the way it goes. Jerry is an outstanding guy. He’s been practicing law. I still visit with my colleagues from time to time, and it’s a pleasure to continue to visit with them all after the years where they do other things.</p>
<p>NL: Alright, just one last question for you today. Bringing it back to the focus of this project is July, 1967. Many people categorize those events as “riots”. Would you use that word?</p>
<p>RG: Yes I would, yes I would. Yeah, what other words do they have?</p>
<p>NL: Some people have called it a rebellion or an uprising or a civil disturbance.</p>
<p>RG: Whatever description says it all. How can you say a rebellion when you have forty-three murders, fifty million [of] damages, fires—blocks and blocks of fires—that’s not a rebellion, that’s a riot. Anyway, that’s my view.</p>
<p>NL: Alright, well thank you for sharing that with us and thank you for sharing all your memories today.</p>
<p>RG: Pleasure, take that off. [Speaking to Paula Rewald-Gribbs] Is there any things you want to mention?</p>
<p>PG: Hmm, the only thing is—actually I was going to ask you a question, but I don’t know—it’s up to you, whatever, whenever.</p>
<p>RG: Why don’t you turn that off.</p>
<p>PG: No, no, no, no. You know what, I was curious because when you went and were working with Nixon, how was Detroit chosen for that Chinese ping-pong diplomacy for this term? The Chinese system changed, it has nothing to do with them and the reality of ‘67, so it was just from my own point of view. Why did Detroit get chosen as the first place the Chinese would come?</p>
<p>RG: The Chinese to come? I had nothing to do with that except that at that time, I don’t know who was in charge—</p>
<p>PG: It was the ping-pong championships.</p>
<p>RG: National ping-pong contest. Somebody in that contest, in that fighting, thought that it would be great for the city. I said “Oh, by all means!”</p>
<p>PG: Yeah, but this was considered part of a larger move by the Nixon a demonstration to normalize relations.</p>
<p>RG: Yeah, relations were terrible—</p>
<p>PG: So I’m sure that wherever they were going to go, the first appearance that they would make was very strategic, and I was just wondering—</p>
<p>RG:I think it’s a compliment.</p>
<p>PG: Do you remember did it have anything to do with the federation working on the National League of Cities?</p>
<p>RG: Maybe, all I can say is maybe. I think the city was on an upbeat—</p>
<p>PG: You had a relationship so that he knew about you and he knew about the city?</p>
<p>RG: Could be, all I can say is that I became aware of it. I said “Open up all arms!” You know, of course, because this is a breakthrough—I had forgotten it—for the first time when Nixon made contact with the Chinese and had a national relationship. And so when they came I said, “Let’s have a festival. Let’s have a dinner for them at the mansion.” I didn’t live at the mansion, but I used it for events like that. So we had a dinner, and I invited all of the officials of the ping-pong contest—they had it at Cobo Hall—and then they had the event at it. And you were about twelve years old.</p>
<p>PG: Yeah, a little bit older maybe by then, no I remember.</p>
<p>RG: Yeah, maybe [laughter]. That’s right, that’s right. And, it was great.</p>
<p>PG: It all started here.</p>
<p>RG: This is why being the mayor of a city, when it’s the fifth largest, was a wonderful experience. It’s all the people that—just think of that—that somebody from China was here in Detroit for the reason that Detroit still stands out and it’s the place to go and to make a ping-pong visit--first visit in the United States! In Detroit? Wow, that’s terrific! And that’s what leadership and good governance is all about “Hey, they’re friendly people, this is the place to be! They’re not antagonistic. They did have a little problem they called a riot but way past. It’s over, it’s now four years of stability and safety—and that literally means safety.” I forgot about that, I’m up in years. I’m no longer forty-years-old.</p>
<p>PG: One other question, really fast was—‘cause I don’t know if you covered this, or I think you might have just skimmed over it—at the time that you were running the campaign against Austin, did people talk about, did you talk about with Austin—were there debates? Did you deal with the issue of the riot during the campaign? Was it a big topic?</p>
<p>RG: Oh sure, oh sure. We answered any—it was an open question usually, the two of us before a panel of questioners or a group. We had, as a matter of fact, we had seven public debates for at least an hour each, each channel, we had three. And Channel 62, I think had three more by themselves, there were six or seven altogether. So we’d ask “Any questions?” I said, “We gotta heal any problems we had that caused the riots, and that’s illegality and that’s crime.” And so crime was and is still the number one issue, and then we have to keep the school system—improve that—and just answer the questions as they were posed. But it was always out in the open, particularly since you had a black man, for the first time, one of the two nominees for the final election.</p>
<p>There were about ten people, including remember Mary Beck—was from the city council—she was running and the former—Ed Carrey, Ed—another councilman, was running. Anyway, and me was the sheriff of Wayne county, he [Austin] was the auditor of Wayne county, and the two of us were the two that got the top votes. And I forget what the primary was but in the final vote, I barely won. The margin of winning was about 7,420, something like that, out of 400,000-plus votes. So it’s a teeny margin, it’s less than one percent, but it’s a winner. And it was that close because I like to think it’s two good men and I happened to get an edge on him, that’s all. Looking at the changes in the city, I knew we were going to have a black mayor after a short period of time because the majority of the people as the people are moving out, eighty percent were white and ten percent were black moving out—because they wanted to move out, whatever reason they had to move out. And by the time I left, I don’t know what it was particularly, but it probably fifty-five percent black by that time, in the four years, percentagewise in terms of the number of whites and blacks.</p>
<p>Anyway, good question, I’d forgotten about that. That was a wonderful event when the Chinese—we got national news! Now that was a big plus for the city that nationally they know that the first Chinese ever to come over here came to Detroit. And it’s like, “Oh yeah, did you build that building?” “No, it was during my administration.” [Laughter] Detroit Renaissance. Anyway, that’s it. Anything else?</p>
<p>LW: No.</p>
<p>NL: I don’t think so, thank you so much for sharing your stories with us today.</p>
<p>RG: It’s been a pleasure! As you can see, I like to talk.</p>
<p>NL: And that’s good, we like to listen.</p>
<p>RG: It’s a pleasure.</p>
**
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Roman Gribbs, June 24th, 2015
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Austin, Richard <br />Capac, Michigan <br />Cavanagh, Jerry (Jerome)<br />Detroit “Little” City Halls<br />Detroit Renaissance <br />Emmett, Michigan <br />Greene, Walter <br />Griffiths, Martha<br />Murphy, Patrick V. <br />Polish-American community<br />Renaissance Center <br />S.T.R.E.S.S. [Stop the Robberies Enjoy Safe Streets ] <br />Young, Coleman A.
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In this interview, former Mayor of Detroit Roman Gribbs discusses his job as a traffic court referee for the City of Detroit during the 1967 civil disturbance and the legal and logistical issues stemming from mass arrests during the disturbance In addition, Gribbs discusses the 1969 Detroit mayoral election and his four years as mayor. He shares details about his personnel policies, key appointees, creation of neighborhood city halls, his governing principles, the S.T.R.E.S.S. initiative, the role of Michigan corporations and executives in the creation of Detroit Renaissance, the construction of the Renaissance Center, lobbying for Federal funding for Detroit, and his role in the National League of Cities.
“Little” City Halls
1967 riot—Detroit—Michigan
Capac
Detroit Police Department
Detroit Renaissance
Government
Mayor Coleman Young
Mayor Jerome Cavanagh
Michigan National Guard
Polish-American community
Public Servant
Recorder's Court - Detroit
Renaissance Center
STRESS
Tanks